Pilot Fatigue Investigation

[ps123]

Hi everyone. My name is Paula Slier, and I am an RT (Russia Today) reporter. After investigating the causes of the FlyDubai crash in March, we are really concerned about the welfare of pilots, and we want to help expose airline companies that systematically exploit their pilots by making them fly unreasonable and fatigue-inducing schedules, amongst other unfair practices. We are looking for people who are willing to talk to us about this issue. Anyone with information please contact me at [email protected]

Here is a link to some of the work we've done: https://www.rt.com/op-edge/338525-flydubai-tragedy-journalism-russia/

[deefer dog]

Only those either retired, or about to do so, are likely to speak on camera. This is a very touchy subject right now, and in view of the recent amendments (worsened) of flight time duty limitations it looks like EASA are on the side of the airlines.

[langleybaston]

What would be useful to self-loading freight [like me] would be for the "good" airlines to be identified. There is a slack handful that I avoid on various grounds including rosters and fatigue, but I have little feel for those the professionals are happy with.

Nobody is going to get in trouble naming the goodies!

[Plank Cap]

Paula,

Regarding pilot fatigue, those of us here in the Middle East know how much work you and your team have done shedding light on the poor practices of the carriers in this region, and we applaud you for that.

Perhaps the poster above may be on to something by suggesting a list of airlines who promote good practice as regards fatigue management - thereby all other companies that don't make the list are guilty of poor practice.

Maybe you could establish an annual IATA carrier table of companies who make the grade, and those which do not....... just don't rely on the airlines' own assessment of their fatigue management issues. Keep encouraging the pilots to speak out.

Keep up the good work.

[framer]

How about a bi- monthly list of the top ( good) thirty Airlines.
The ranking should not be determined by the Airlines themselves of course.
A survey of pilots that gives an indication of
1/ Total block hours for the month
2/ Total duty hours for the month
3/ Number of duties beginning before 6am local for the month
4/ Number of duties finishing after midnight local ( at home base)for the month
and importantly
5/ number of circadian shifts for the month ( earlies into lates and back again)

[RAT 5]

What about an exposure of 'legal' rosters but lacking common sense.

e.g. A block of 5 earlies that require you to wake up at 03.30, leave home at 04.15, drive to crew carpark, wait for bus to terminal, trudge through security to arrive for check in at 05.30. Maybe not too bad if in summer and flying to warm sunny climes. Now transpose that to winter and flying to icy Scandanvia where the airport is not yet open when you depart into a guesstimate of weather conditions for arrival; but with hopefully enough fuel to divert to a major airfield if your destination runway is not yet prepared and suitable. Now do that twice a day for 4 days. Then, when you are at a low ebb, throw in a Canary island (12 hours) out/back to really finish you off. Month in month out. All legal. And if you become tired it is your own fault.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

How about a bi- monthly list of the top ( good) thirty Airlines.
The ranking should not be determined by the Airlines themselves of course.
A survey of pilots that gives an indication of
1/ Total block hours for the month
2/ Total duty hours for the month
3/ Number of duties beginning before 6am local for the month
4/ Number of duties finishing after midnight local ( at home base)for the month
and importantly
5/ number of circadian shifts for the month ( earlies into lates and back again)

Framer
Lets even it up a little
6/ How many days off in the month/year
7/ How much leave and days off in the year

[Superpilot]

What we need to develop is an indicator, a metric that can very easily identify for the lay person the level of "unhuman-ness" a flying roster can demand. Put everything stated above into the mix, we should be able to do it.

[PJ2]

Re,
6/ How many days off in the month/year
7/ How much leave and days off in the year
And one more...

8/ how many sick days are provided, and how much pay is docked for each day used?

Because sick days are necessary but sometimes either are abused or management believes they are abused, many companies dock pay by 10% or more to "keep the abuse down". Pay is so low at many carriers that pilots do what's expected of them and come in to work, sick.

Question:
How many employers of those posting here dock pay for taking a sick day?

[RAT 5]

Question:
How many employers of those posting here dock pay for taking a sick day?

How many pilots, on the enforced 'self-employed' treadmill, do not get paid anything if sick?

[framer]

Framer
Lets even it up a little
6/ How many days off in the month/year
7/ How much leave and days off in the year
That's a great idea Angry.
The point is to make it easy for passengers to identify the Airlines where the pilots are least likely to have their eyeballs hanging out of their heads. If we implement your suggestion that will help. The more leave and days off the more likely an Airline will make the list.
I imagine if this was done properly many passengers would only fly with Airlines that make the list. It would certainly be easy to generate media coverage for it.

[Trossie]

A problem that I have with this thread:

It has been set up by a journo who works for a state-sponsored media outfit.

That state does not have a good airline safety record.

'Information' gathered could be used to make the travelling public wary about using the world's safest form of transport because of 'safety fears' generated by a journo wanting to get a good story (can't blame them, it's their job, but their actions can have very detrimental effects on other hard-working people's jobs in their desire to "get that story") and the state sponsoring that media outfit could be delighted to be able to point fingers elsewhere in order to get attention away from their own poor record.

Just think about that when you post here.

[glofish]

Bullocks!

Just post the truth, no pilots get hurt, the journo gets her juicy story and the passengers might get increased safety.

The only ones who might suffer are the crap companies and the corrupt regulators.

Are you one of the latter? :ugh:

[Trossie]

glofish, I think that you are rather naive if you think that "The only ones who might suffer are the crap companies and the corrupt regulators." (And no, I am not one of 'the latter'.)

Journos are keen on big stories. Full Stop. If that 'big story' scares the travelling public so that they are illogically scared off using the safest form of transport that exists, the journos could not give two hoots. Scaring the public off flying may not hurt pilots physically, but it affects their jobs, even those in good companies (because the journos 'big stories' will always be indiscriminate), and that does hurt pilots.

Proper targeted actions against 'the crap companies and the corrupt regulators' is the only way to solve this problem, not blabbing to journos to help them with that 'big story'.

[RAT 5]

Proper targeted actions against 'the crap companies and the corrupt regulators' is the only way to solve this problem, not blabbing to journos to help them with that 'big story'.

Given that this has been a topic of discussion & contention for 30 years, and it has become worse, would you suggest why there has not been any successful 'proper targeted action' against those elements you identify? Also, what is your suggestion for proper targeted action? What does catch attention is a strike. It gets peoples' focus and alerts those who need to listen that the strikers are serious about a serious issue. The lack of strikes shows that; i.e. when it happens it is serious. Often, when it does happen, the PR element of the strikers' story is not portrayed in a strong professional unambiguous way. A clear case for everyone to understand, including the troubled travelling public. Junior doctors had the balls and gained some sympathy. The only thing that makes the management pay attention are grounded a/c. It is very sad to say that the same comments & complaints about the same issues have been on going for 30 years AND they've become worse. Therefore the companies & XAA's have not listened.
We have seen, in other areas and industries, that a strong story in the public media has awakened public opinion that had been kept in the dark. They can be a little blasé if not affected directly, but they do scream & shout when they realise they are at risk. Old people's care homes, other medical facilities, some schools, ferry companies even some airlines are cases in point. Considering the conspicuous lack of success over 30 years why not try a different route, but in a professional and careful manner?

[framer]

Well put Rat 5.
Targeting the crap companies and certain regulators hasn't worked, and it won't work until it gets so much worse that the public forms their own opinions due to aircraft crashes in their own backyard. We don't want to let it go that far.
Many families have already held funerals for their loved ones that wouldn't have happened if the pilots had been well rested.
Why? So that airlines can have 300 pilots on salary instead of 325 and can therefore offer tickets at £55 as opposed to £59.
The scientists agree that it is a bad idea to have pilots doing return shifts starting at 7pm and ending with an approach at 6am. Pilots agree that it is a bad idea to have pilots doing return shifts starting at 7pm and ending with an approach at 6am. The accountants and Lawyers who run the regulators and the Airlines think it is a fine idea. The public doesn't even know it happens. Getting the public to hear what the scientists and pilots say is the only way to put pressure on the lawyers and accountants.
Trossie, I think you are nieve in your views.

[Trossie]

I agree with most of the last two posts (except the very last comment!). I especially agree with...why not try a different route, but in a professional and careful manner?Just, I don't think that blabbing through PPRuNe to a journalist on the books of a state sponsored media outfit where that state has a few axes to grind with our part of the world (and our part of the world having significantly better airline safety than that state's) is doing it "...in a professional and careful manner". That 'loose cannon' effect can cause the sort of illogical public fear that would affect the good companies too and hurt good pilots' jobs.

[somchai]

I applaud you for you effort. Fatigue management should be exposed. As you well know putting folks in front of a camera does little to fix the problem other than bringing attention in that moment.

This is one area there area where there is no international standards. Each country decide what rules they will abide by. Each counrty determines how much oversight they will do less commission (payoff) to the principal operating inspector (POI).

All the above ideas are good . . . allow me to add, exposing the differences by country and I suppose company. Pilots can scan and email you the rules from their operating manual and/or country regulations. Alot of work, but you might be surprised at the vast differences. Then expose countries/companies with less restrictive rules.

[Trossie]

A more targeted way of dealing with the problem:
Alitalia passengers forced to disembark after 'pilot refused to fly because he was too tired' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3691731/Passengers-forced-disembark-flight-endure-16-hour-delay-pilot-refused-fly-tired.html#comments),
Alitalia pilot said he was 'too tired' to fly, passengers endure 16-hour delay | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/82132959/alitalia-pilot-said-he-was-too-tired-to-fly-passengers-endure-16hour-delay),
and far better than the 'loose cannon' approach of blabbing to a journo working for a rather dodgy state funded media outfit on PPRuNe?

(The video on the 'Stuff' report is worth watching.)

[Uplinker]

I must be fatigued (14 hours, 17 mins duty yesterday), because the Quantas 74 at the end of that second clip appears to have five engines?? Or maybe six??

Maybe the engineers are fatigued as well, and bolted on too many?

[RAT 5]

I remember a story about a BA flight from India? that was 'delayed' 14hrs. Reason? The crew were allocated a hotel for a stop-over where there was extensive renovation/building work going on. The crew needed to sleep during the day for an evening departure. They had no chance of sleep. Captain called delayed the flight until the next morning so the crew could have a proper sleep and be fit for the flight. This was a case of declaring yourself 'unfit to complete the duty'. It was incontestable and the root blame could be laid at the door of the employer. Slam-dunk. Good solid union airline. Well done.
Compare this to the call from a lowly non-union pilot that he could not sleep at home due to his neighbours having extension work done on their house, and could not sleep before an evening/night duty. One, the company accepts the excuse, the 2nd it is your fault for not managing your rest. It's a difficult world and you need to be opened eyed and aware before you dare enter.

[J.O.]

I must be fatigued (14 hours, 17 mins duty yesterday), because the Quantas 74 at the end of that second clip appears to have five engines?? Or maybe six??

Maybe the engineers are fatigued as well, and bolted on too many?

The 747 has the ability to carry a spare engine on a "ferrying only" pylon.

[Uplinker]

That's a relief. I thought I was hallucinating.......:):):)

[Fire and brimstone]

Why are pilots afraid to talk about fatigue.

I can understand why it is very dangerous for a pilot to be at work in a fatigued state.

But if they are afraid to speak out, that means a safety risk is being covered up. This is dangerous.

Why are pilots afraid, and who are they afraid of??

[777300ER]

Why are pilots afraid to talk about fatigue.


Talking to the media about fatigue is grounds for dismissal at most airlines. Reporting fatigue through official channels is likely to result in punitive measures (delayed career progression, missed promotions, persecution, dismissal) as well. It's not a surprise that this is a difficult conversation to get going.

[framer]

I think it is more to do with the fact that most people don't understand the cumulative effects of shift work, siting still for 11 hours with only a brief break to stand up, cabin pressure at 8000ft, constant moderate noise, high mental processing demands in short bursts, and an expectation of consistent high standards of performance combined with significant responsibility and the toll that takes over a period of months and years.
If I show my neighbour a roster that has absolutely bowled me over he will most likely look at the numbers and start a story about how much he has worked this month and won't ( can't ) factor in all f the influences I listed above as he has never experienced them all at once. Other pilots understand. Even cabin crew find it hard to believe our job is taxing.

[OldLurker]

Talking to the media about fatigue is grounds for dismissal at most airlines.Unsurprising: talking to tabloid media about any aspect of aviation (or anything at all, for that matter) is almost always counter-productive. Red-top hacks aren't interested in safety or accuracy, only sensationalism. Trossie had it right (#17 above).Reporting fatigue through official channels is likely to result in punitive measures That's another matter. Aviation safety reporting is supposed to come under "just culture" where you don't get victimised for reporting safety-related matters. Only yesterday, BBC Radio 4 had a programme about how aviation safety culture is so good, they're trying to get medics to do the same. (From the Cockpit to the Operating Theatre (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05y16mv)) Maybe it ain't so in reality?