United 6186 Turnback due to Heat

[EternalNY1]

Does anyone have any knowledge of why this flight made if halfway to Phoenix before turning back?


I'm a commercial rated pilot and a flight dispatcher, yet I can't see why this particular flight decided to turn back instead of landing. The conditions at the field did not prevent it from what I can see from the 175 handbook.

ERJ 170/175/190 Limitations

Max Ambient Air Temperature for T/O and Landing 52 C

52C is 125.6F and it wasnt anywhere near that hot.

Were they making short turnarounds and this was a question of brake heat? Were the concerned it was going to get even more hot and get stuck there? This was the only flight to return, and from video shown onboard they told passengers it was due to the heat prohibiting them from landing.

Is this something ops-specific? It didn't seem to affect anyone else.

I checked the various density altitude information, and nothing performance-wise should have prevented it (although it was obviously close to the envelope).

My density and temp calculations were:

Airport Conditions:

KPX Elevation: 1134.6 ft. / 345.8 m (surveyed)
KPX Temp: 46.7°C (116°F)
Dewpoint: 2.8°C (37°F) [RH = 7%]
Pressure (altimiter): 29.74 inches Hg

DENSITY ALTITUDE: 5186 feet

ERJ 175 Limitations

Max Ambient Air Temp for T/O & Landing: 125.6 F
Max Takeoff Altitude: 8,000 ft.
Brakes: Cooling Limitation: Do not takeoff with amber brake temperature indicators

That last bit about the brakes (or tires) is the only reason I could think of this (from a beancounter/dispatch standpoint).

Other types, on similar short turn-arounds, made it in all day.

http://i.imgur.com/ogoFDHR.png

[FIRESYSOK]

Can't have an air return anymore without the FSX armchair internet brigade out in force. Breaks or no breaks, who cares if anything might brake.

[Three Lima Charlie]

"The temperature limitation for this aircraft [Embraer 175] to operate safely was 118," according to a United Airlines spokeswoman.

[HighAndFlighty]

It's "brakes". B. R. A. K. E. S. Brakes.

Not "breaks". Brakes.

Thank God he didn't ask whether the heat may have put the ERJ in danger of "loosing its breaks". Had that occurred, I would have well and truly lost it.

[+TSRA]

I'm a commercial rated pilot and a flight dispatcher, yet I can't see why this particular flight decided to turn back instead of landing.

Did they ever teach you in your CPL or Dispatcher classes about WAT (Weight for Altitude and Temperature)? Perhaps the guys sitting in the pointy end realized they could not meet the Approach Climb Limit or Landing Climb Limit and would not be able to with the temperature forecast for the next couple hours. Not too many aircraft I know can be near 52C with full performance.

Or maybe they had an MEL that lowered the "maximum temperature" to a value below the AFM published maximum (maybe to the 118F previously mentioned).

Or maybe there is a company policy that lowers the maximum to save on maintenance costs - we limit our climb and cruise numbers on all our types by between 40C to 60C from maximum as a preventative measure - not something you'll see in the AFM.

Just a couple of the reasons.

By the way, saying something like this:

Other types, on similar short turn-arounds, made it in all day.


is what causes the type of responses you're getting, among spelling errors. If you're a CPL holder and a flight dispatcher, you should know you never, ever try and suggest a crew should go ahead and do something just because others do - especially in other types.

[EternalNY1]

Can't have an air return anymore without the FSX armchair internet brigade out in force. Breaks or no breaks, who cares if anything might brake.

Was that in reference to me?

I'm a certified commercial pilot, I have a BS in Aeronautical Science, I am a certified Air Traffic Controller and a certified FAA dispatcher!

I don't work in aviation at the moment, so I do not have access to the "real" reasons here.

I was just curious. :ugh:

[EternalNY1]

t's "brakes". B. R. A. K. E. S. Brakes.

Not "breaks". Brakes.

Thank God he didn't ask whether the heat may have put the ERJ in danger of "loosing its breaks". Had that occurred, I would have well and truly lost it.

Do you happen to have any idea if I am certified on this aircraft?

You clearly don't.

I know the specs. Republic, Mesa and others from what I can see have a hard limit at 52C. In other places, ISA +35C.

The typo is because I type very fast and I can't be bothered to waste my time reviewing every character I type on an internet forum for a simple question.

[EternalNY1]

Did they ever teach you in your CPL or Dispatcher classes about WAT (Weight for Altitude and Temperature)? Perhaps the guys sitting in the pointy end realized they could not meet the Approach Climb Limit or Landing Climb Limit and would not be able to with the temperature forecast for the next couple hours.

Ok, this was the only reasonable response I got so far. I'm quite familiar with everything you said, I was just curious if anyone knew what the turnaround was for and not because it was "too hot".

"Too hot" is not the same as a lowered MEL to the APM pub max.

And obviously, yes. I know the regs, both as a CPL, Dispatcher, and ATC.

The typos are just because I'm not sending my PHD thesis here, I just was asking a simple question and sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain.

If you're a CPL holder and a flight dispatcher, you should know you never, ever try and suggest a crew should go ahead and do something just because others do - especially in other types.

Other aircraft, on similar legs, from the same carrier made it in fine, and within limitations. They also departed on schedule without issue.

That is key, because this turnaround must have been for some reason other than being outside of the envelope for safety reasons. Not company regs regarding temp and type.

I'm not second-guessing the PIC's decisions here. I think this was more of a logistical thing.

It was only a question, but please don't slam my credentials because I spelled "brakes" "breaks". That is just because I don't go over every single word I type when typing very fast on a simple question. Obviously, it's not going to mark "breaks" as a misspelling so i don't notice it.

This isn't an government regulated exam. It's a question on a forum.

[EternalNY1]

"The temperature limitation for this aircraft [Embraer 175] to operate safely was 118," according to a United Airlines spokeswoman.

Yes, and that spokeswoman has no idea what she's talking about.

Which is why I asked in the first place.

[+TSRA]

It was only a question, but please don't slam my credentials because I spelled "brakes" "breaks". That is just because I don't go over every single word I type when typing very fast on a simple question. Obviously, it's not going to mark "breaks" as a misspelling so i don't notice it.

I don't want to get into a throwing match here; I leave that to other, more interested people.

But, I will point out that when you state you have certain qualifications and then ask a question with a very basic spelling mistake, it doesn't come off as being all that professional; hence the responses.

Yes, this is an internet forum. But the name of the forum has "Professional Pilot" in it. If you want to be treated as such, then you must rise above and realize that the only three things we professionals have to judge each others qualifications on are content, quality, and spelling. Screw any one of those three up, and you don't come off as professional, but as an amateur.

Alright, onto why I actually wanted to respond:

"Too hot" is not the same as a lowered MEL to the APM pub max.


The airline is not going to publish that an MEL was the cause of the turnaround where that MEL stated temperature was affected. The general public doesn't understand the basics of an MEL and it only comes off sounding like the airline is flying defective aircraft. It is far better to state it was "Too Hot" because that is a simple and easily understood concept, if indeed that was the issue.

Other aircraft, on similar legs, from the same carrier made it in fine, and within limitations. They also departed on schedule without issue.

That is key, because this turnaround must have been for some reason other than being outside of the envelope for safety reasons. Not company regs regarding temp and type.

But you don't know that. Perhaps all the other aircraft of the same type had different serial numbers which permitted a certain level of performance while this one had a serial number which required certain restrictions. That happens all the time.

Not performance related, but consider the Dash-8 300. A -301 has landing gear which sits further forward than the -311 or later. You can strike the tail of a -301 at near 7 or 8 degrees nose up. It requires around 13 or 14 degrees in the -311. From the outside looking in, it is a very minor change that most people cannot even identify - indeed, the AFM only describes it on the profile view page and, from memory, its a very slight change to the nose to main gear length. You'd miss it if it were not shown to you. All the approach speeds, performance numbers and SOPs are identical. However, a nose high landing in the -301 will cause a tail strike. That same nose high attitude in the -311 won't. Yet the difference comes down to when the airplane left the factory floor.

Same thing can happen with performance. Different engines, different systems, any minor change has an impact on aircraft performance.

[Three Lima Charlie]

Could be the flight had one or more animals in the belly. American Airlines has a temperature limit for pets of 85F on the ramp.

[Piltdown Man]

Our engine start, take-off and landing OAT temperature range extends between 30 C at 10,000' and 52 C at -1,000'. But that is ours. Other operators may have different limits and then we have to consider other operational limitations such as APU inoperable and/or the availability of air conditioning units. Therefore, more facts are required. What is certain is that airlines don't like passengers being given extended pleasure flights for free.

PM

[Capot]

Just a small voice from the back of the cabin.....

"Extended WHAT flights?" Have you flown as an economy passenger in the last 15 years?

[West Coast]

Extended WHAT flights?" Have you flown as an economy passenger in the last 15 years?

I used to feel for the SLF, overlooked gripes about the demise of the glamour days of aviation. Smiled in sympathy when they complained about rude staff. Understanding when they're not fed on a domestic four hour flight.

When I politely remind them all that stuff is available at a price, I'm told they only want the lowest price available.

Passengers bear some degree of the blame. When you buy the absolute cheapest seats on Priceline,etc, don't complain too loudly.