Ladies on the Flight Deck

[crowsnest1]

I’m all for diversity, and thoroughly enjoy working with different people on a daily basis in my current job, however it is male dominated engineering. Saying this though, there are quite a few ladies around whom I do get on with. Although, at the moment its hard not to recognise the huge push by airlines in recruiting female pilots, whether this be from online news posts, remarks in newspapers about the male dominated industry (flightdeck specifically), or PR pushed out by the airlines (look at the BA FPP page with the pics of female pilots, Aer Lingus’ recent video of their inaugural DUB-LAX flight with an all-female crew, EZYs Amy Johnson Initiative etc etc).


What I’m wondering, is why the big push? Of course yes, a career as an airline pilot for a female offers the same benefits as that of a man. Although, the same can also be said for the careers of becoming a mid-wife, primary school teacher… and cabin crew, for men. Surely as an industry we shouldn’t be focused on the percentage of women to men, but more on training quality and getting the correct person for the job.
Yes diversity is important, but if man A is from Greater London, and lady B also from Greater London, then really, other than their sex,whats the big push to greatly increase the percentage of lady B’s as opposed to men A’s, other than sex just to prove to on lookers that their company is “diverse”in the flight deck. Airlines are diverse companies, employing lots of females in other roles, so whats the problem?


The point of this isn’t to cat fight with anyone on the point, but more of me to gain an understanding of why its so important, and is a genuine question.

[parabellum]

Equal opportunity - the ratio of men to women on earth is around 50/50 so why shouldn't 50% of pilots be women?

[Intruder]

Maybe because 50% of the applicants aren't women, nor are 50% of student pilots...

[+TSRA]

Surely as an industry we shouldn’t be focused on the percentage of women to men, but more on training quality and getting the correct person for the job.


Spoken like a true pilot unaware of the self-imposed public image - just like me! :)

The issue is purely PR. I've flown with as many female pilots who have called out my mistakes as male pilots. I've seen just as many female pilots make greasers as male pilots (and just as many treating the runway as the USS Nimitz).

The issue is not technical, but trying to match the "societal" image of "fair and equal." As was mentioned, females make up 50% of the population, so in theory that should be the same in the industry. But if, as intruder pointed out, females do not make up 50% of the pilot base (it's probably closer to 25 or 30% - exactly the percentage I see in my company).

Many airlines, however, are pressured into showing they are "fair and equal employers," so they have to hire people who would otherwise be considered "unqualified" (by that I mean not meeting all of the minimum requirements rather than not holding the basic licenses).

However, society simply cannot handle hearing anyone is "unqualified" for a role; especially when it comes to women or minorities. So many organizations are "forced" into hiring people into positions that would otherwise be given to a more experienced person.

Like the majority of pilots (and men) I don't care if someone of another gender or race gets a job over me. My issue, and I suspect yours too, is that it is often not a level playing field for everyone. If it were, then we would truly have equality...but equality does not mean hiring all the women and minorities of the world to "fill slots." It means hiring the right person for the job, no matter what "undercarriage, fuselage type, or preference for flight level" they may have.

[atpcliff]

With this growing pilot shortage, we should focus our resources and effort on getting EVERYONE to be a pilot. Emphasizing only women is a waste of resources.

[AerocatS2A]

As the father of girls who like pink and think being pretty is the most important thing in the world :ugh:, I'm all for a bit of PR that pushes the idea that women can work in male dominated industries. A lot of society seems to be sitting back fat dumb and happy thinking we've got this equal opportunity :mad: sorted, but the mere fact that some industries are so male dominated for no good reason (it's not like flying an aeroplane involves skills or abilities that women don't possess) would show that we don't have it sorted yet. It's not just a matter of giving equal opportunity, it's also a matter of making women feel welcome here.

I'm not advocating for preferential treatment. In terms of gender split I think interviews given should be roughly proportional to applications received and jobs given should be roughly proportional to interviews. This should be achievable by simply hiring on merit.

There is certainly a place though, for continued promotion of women progressing into male dominated industries. Let the youngsters know it's ok to dream of flying. The same goes the other way as well. Men should feel comfortable aspiring to be flight attendants without it automatically being associated with their sexuality.

[+TSRA]

Aerocat,

I agree 100% that our industry could do a lot more to promote itself as an option for women and other groups of the population. I'd love to see the day where the aviation industry is totally reflective of the general population both ahead of and behind the flight deck door.

The unfortunate thing about many of the "Women in Aviation" groups I've had the pleasure of hearing about from my female co-workers is that they focus so much on "breaking the male dominated barrier." Indeed, a recent article on an old co-pilot of mine said (and I paraphrase, although not that much!) "[Her name] is now a Captain for [company name]. She's a badass who loves to ride bikes and fly planes." The article totally suggests that women need to be a tomboy to become a pilot. From my POV that is selling the wrong product.

As an industry we should not focus on "breaking the barrier" so much as simply promoting that it is a cool industry with progression and is an industry where you can still be whomever you want to be. If a female pilot wants to have a family, cool! Your seniority number is growing while you're gone - have fun, and we'll see you when you come back!

But, we should not artificially increase the number of any group just to make the statistics sheet look good. Doing so only puts people into positions that would otherwise be better filled by more qualified people - be they men, women, white, black, LGBT, whatever.

[AerocatS2A]

+TSRA, agree with all that you have written.

[Doors to Automatic]

I've seen just as many female pilots make greasers as male pilots

Yes but how many have you seen land at the right spot on the runway at the right speed ;)

[+TSRA]

Point taken. I would have to answer that all pilots are equally as bad, regardless of gender, at landing on the right spot and on speed - myself included! :)

[Innominate]

Aerocat and TSRA:

I agree. There seems to be a need to convince girls that they can be pilots, engineers and many ofher professions traditionally seen as jobs for men. If there is a potential pilot shortage, it's important to encourage applications from all sectors of the population and particularly those who might not realise that they may have what it takes.

[Wageslave]

Equal opportunity - the ratio of men to women on earth is around 50/50 so why shouldn't 50% of pilots be women?

Whacky logic, that!

Equal opportunity means no bias in hiring - in either direction. Most of the airlines I've worked for seemed to have a noticeable bias towards hiring women which is hardly equal opportunity.

The actual ratio of M to F in the job is a function of who wants to do it, not how hard it is for one or the other to get hired. To get 50/50 would require sexual discrimination on a monumental scale, just as a 50/50 ratio in midwifery isn't going to happen. Methinks there would be rather more customer resistance to that than there ever was to female airline pilots.

Are we to have equal opportunity programmes for wet-nurses next then?

[esreverlluf]

It was once pointed out to me that you rarely see an unemployed female pilot!

[AerocatS2A]

I rarely see any unemployed pilots. Why? Because I am an employed pilot and therefore all of my friends are employed pilots.

[AirRabbit]

Point taken. I would have to answer that all pilots are equally as bad, regardless of gender, at landing on the right spot and on speed - myself included!
In my view, this is the attitude that makes ALL of your comments worthwhile! Thanks!

[JammedStab]

Why don't we just accept the reality that women think differently than men. Therefore, there are certain jobs that women tend to prefer and certain jobs that men tend to prefer. All you have to do is listen(while hidden to the subjects a group of women will talk about compared to men if you want proof).

That is just the way it is.

My theory is that women have a built-in desire to want to help. That is part of the explanation of why so so many ATC folk are female along with other professions such as doctors. As well, being home most days(or nights) to see the kids is part of it.

So, get rid of the gender-based discrimination that makes many wonder how qualified any female pilot actually is, and hire those that interview the best.

[megan]

Are we to have equal opportunity programmes for wet-nurses next then?Maybe.

The lactating man ~ The husband breastfeeding his children (http://www.breastfeeding-problems.com/lactating-man.html)

[Luke SkyToddler]

My wife's not a ppruner but I'll try to paraphrase her thoughts on the matter, she is a professional pilot and was just starting her first airline command at the time she fell pregnant.

She had every intention of getting back into the flying post pregnancy, but to be honest once we actually had the baby, her feelings changed, we just weren't prepared to make those sacrifices. Two kids now and the second one's just starting school, she'll get back into flying in some capacity in the near future but it won't be airline because we both agree that we just don't want both parents being away from home for multiple days at a time and working antisocial hours, like Daddy does.

The unfortunate biological fact is, that it's always the woman who loses her pilot medical certification for several months, when it's time to start a family. And this industry is so brutally hard for anyone, man or woman, once they've been out of it for a while, to get back into it. And it's very unforgiving of part time employment or 9-to-5 options or all the good things you can normally get in office jobs.

[AerocatS2A]

There is no reason why it can't be the man who gives up the career to be a stay at home Dad. I'm in a similar situation to you Luke and to be honest I find the idea appealing (not giving it up completely, but being the one who takes the paternity leave and so on.) I had about 6 weeks off work recently due injury and I didn't miss it one bit. The fact is for us that we need two good incomes so we both fly and make it work.

[PDR1]

Why don't we just accept the reality that women think differently than men.

Ooh, hang on - I know this answer...is it...umm...could it be...

"Because it's not true, it's complete and utter grade one loose-stool water"?

There are a few structural differences between male and female brains, but they all push in the direction of potentially tending towards being better pilots than worse ones, as the military discovered some years ago and have been exploiting ever since.

But if we want to continue the stereotype jokes we should be looking atthe remarks made by a slightly inebriated scouser SLF on an easyjet flight to a footie match when he was advised that the captain of his aeroplane was a woman:

"That's great - I don't care if they let a girl fly the plane 'cose I'm sure she'll be brilliant. But when we get there can we find a man to park it?"

:p

PDR

[Denti]

The unfortunate biological fact is, that it's always the woman who loses her pilot medical certification for several months, when it's time to start a family. And this industry is so brutally hard for anyone, man or woman, once they've been out of it for a while, to get back into it. And it's very unforgiving of part time employment or 9-to-5 options or all the good things you can normally get in office jobs.

Yes, women, no matter if on the flight deck or in the cabin, have to give up flight duty as soon as they know they are pregnant. However, over here they will stay at home at full pay until birth and then stay at home up to another 14 months while being paid by the state and then can take another 3 years of paternatiy leave after which the airline in question has to take them back, train them to proficiency and give them their old job back. Or they could come back earlier and then have a special right to part time work, but then, part time work is every employees right anyway.

All of the ladies on the flightdeck in my company that had kids returned lateron to fly and most continue to do so on part time. Of course it can mean being away from home for a couple days, but the pay versus the time away from home is apparently very well worth it.

[redsnail]

paternatiy leave Really? ;)

[Denti]

Got me there, freudian one. Maternity leave can be split in whatever ratio between both partners, but the paternity leave thing is still somewhat new and therefore probably more present. Not no mention, more blokes on tne flightdeck than girls, and therefore more paternity leave than maternity leave...

[Intruder]

women, no matter if on the flight deck or in the cabin, have to give up flight duty as soon as they know they are pregnant.
Where is that? Certainly NOT true in the US!

[redsnail]

In EASA land yes. First 3 months you're grounded. Next 3 months, good to go assuming no complications. Final 3 months grounded again.

[JammedStab]

Why don't we just accept the reality that women think differently than men. Therefore, there are certain jobs that women tend to prefer and certain jobs that men tend to prefer. All you have to do is listen(while hidden to the subjects a group of women will talk about compared to men if you want proof).

That is just the way it is.

My theory is that women have a built-in desire to want to help. That is part of the explanation of why so so many ATC folk are female along with other professions such as doctors. As well, being home most days(or nights) to see the kids is part of it.

So, get rid of the gender-based discrimination that makes many wonder how qualified any female pilot actually is, and hire those that interview the best.


Ooh, hang on - I know this answer...is it...umm...could it be...

"Because it's not true, it's complete and utter grade one loose-stool water"?

There are a few structural differences between male and female brains, but they all push in the direction of potentially tending towards being better pilots than worse ones, as the military discovered some years ago and have been exploiting ever since.

But if we want to continue the stereotype jokes we should be looking atthe remarks made by a slightly inebriated scouser SLF on an easyjet flight to a footie match when he was advised that the captain of his aeroplane was a woman:

"That's great - I don't care if they let a girl fly the plane 'cose I'm sure she'll be brilliant. But when we get there can we find a man to park it?"

:p

PDR
You obviously did not understand my post above. It clearly has nothing to do with whether female pilots are better or worse than male pilots. It has everything to do with why females are not choosing piloting as a profession. To a lesser extent than why there are very few females in the garbage collecting, sewer cleaning, and construction industry,...it is because not nearly as many of them are interested in it(or willing to do it).

Because they think differently. Not better, not worse just differently.

As for your structural brain differences theory...any expert scientist will tell you that the brain is one of the least understood parts of humans. Scientist can't even figure out the mysteries of sleep even though they all do it every night. As if they have any real analysis of the details of thought process. I can conclude that yours is lacking logic though along with an ability to comprehend a fairly simple post. While the latter is a well known phenomenon, the exact reason for the former is of course...a mystery.

[Reverserbucket]

it is because not nearly as many of them are interested in it(or willing to do it).

I was involved in a recent study commissioned to determine why the imbalance exists between the two sexes in the cockpit and what could be done to encourage more female aircrew applicants. This was a hugely expensive and comprehensive project undertaken by a team of professional research scientists and industry experts conducted over a number of years. The conclusion of this research...women just aren't as interested as men, in much the same way as described in the previous post for other traditionally male dominated vocations such as bin collecting and construction. the solution: more education....teach more women how attractive flying can be!

"You can lead a horse to water..."

[megan]

Let them drink in a little of this

XeIHIV5mRY8

The female pilot working for Emirates (http://7days.ae/female-pilot-taking-on-the-mans-world)

[JammedStab]

I was involved in a recent study commissioned to determine why the imbalance exists between the two sexes in the cockpit and what could be done to encourage more female aircrew applicants. This was a hugely expensive and comprehensive project undertaken by a team of professional research scientists and industry experts conducted over a number of years. The conclusion of this research...women just aren't as interested as men, in much the same way as described in the previous post for other traditionally male dominated vocations such as bin collecting and construction. the solution: more education....teach more women how attractive flying can be!

"You can lead a horse to water..."
Of course, exactly what I said.

There are some that like it like this Emirates lady but a hugely less percentage than men. Just accept reality, much less are interested as a career.

Which is good. I like having a pilot shortage, we don't need to nearly double the availability of pilots looking for work.

And, there is usually a need for doctors. Which is also works out perfect.