Wot no AH64

[doh-nut boy]

Forgive me if im ill informed but I have it on good authority that the Army Air Corps isn't fielding an Apache at Waddington nor Fairford.

If this is pants info may I beg forgiveness, however if not surely Wallop have enough Avtur and a half qualified driver to get one to either event even on static display. Especially after not putting a Lynx in with the Blue Eagles. With the quality of the current Air Troopers etc wouldn't be an ideal opportunity to recruit people with half an interest in Aviation rather than take in the Scrotes and retired smackheads that are currently passing out.

Next someone will be telling me that Spuggy is on the Eagles, and theres a couples of splitarses on the team!!!

Confused and dissapointed

[Scoobie Doo]

Apache arrived at Waddo 1530 today for the airshow and blew a few tents over...:D

[doh-nut boy]

Thats more Like it!

Just tell me it wasn't a Dutch one, is it on static or will it fly? Are they allowed to take it out of its bubblewrap?

[BlueEagle]

They had one at Wattisham on the 25th May this year, gave a very good display and it was British operated one!

[doh-nut boy]

Sounds Promising, Wattasham further away from Wallop than Fairford so were in with a sniff.

[Navy_Adversary]

D N B
It is a Cloggy:D :D :D

[doh-nut boy]

What an absolute joke!

I am an ex member of the Army Air Corps and find it outrageous that a Cloggy AH64 can turn up when we are supposed to be Europes biggest user of the Type.

If the Decision makers are viewing this forum perhaps they could shed some light on the above. Also could they confirm that it is only a joke / windup that the aircraft doesn't fit in the new hangers at 3 & 4 Regt.

This next statement will make me come across as a traitor, this is not the case. I am all for the Corps moving forward and becoming a real battlefield asset instead of VIP transport etc, but this is beyond a joke, if we are not upto it lets hold up our hands and let the Crabs have it, surely there budget would accomodate it and give it the best chance of success.

A slightly bitter Ex Member.:(

[BlueEagle]

Curious - Was the one at Wattisham on the 25th May a Dutch aircraft too? It looked British when on static display and I'm sure the guys available for questions were definitely AAC.

[Pub User]

DNB

It may be that a 'Cloggy' cab turned up because they've nothing better to do. I'm sure you'll recall from you time in the AAC that the British forces allocate priorities differently from most of the mainland European forces.

You are, however, correct in assuming that the AAC will not be able to cope with the demands of the machine. It's not the fault of their personnel, it's merely a case of inadequate infrastructure. They could easily become a battlefield asset, but the machine is too expensive for such a minor role. The AH64 should be a theatre asset, and only the RAF could operate it as such.

[teeteringhead]

It's not so much infrastructure or budgets that make the difference, but state of mind. Apache has the POTENTIAL to be an awesome piece of kit, but the Army's (not the AAC's) state of mind.
The whole complexity of introducing such a complex aircraft has been missed by the Army ( who at one time claimed there would be a "limited operating capability" before the end of 1999!).
More importantly, flying is still not "core business" for the Army, hence the need for a career AAC officer to go and do reely important grunt type duties to get promoted.
In the RAF, it is normal to reach sqn ldr (major) rank having done nothing but fly, and I understand there have been some who have got to wg cdr (lt colonel) without "flying a desk". The rationale I guess, is that flying is what it's all about, and you don't need to prove yourself elsewhere. Until the Army realise this, they won't get the best out of Apache.
Don't get me wrong - this is NOT a plea for the RAF (or RN WEbF) to operate Apache. I don't give a monkey's what capbadge the driver wears, I just want UK plc to optimise the operation of the aircraft.
And the AAC give every sign thus far of not being able to do so.

(stands well back, gets flak jacket and helmet out of cupboard .....)

[doh-nut boy]

Blue Eagle

Well done for pointing out that the Aircraft at Wattisham was a british operated cab, don't recall denying that.

The original question was why a Dutch one had turned up at Waddington and is also on the list for Fairford. I think its excellent that A UK operated cab turned up at Wattisham and the crew were available to talk to after. I do think that may have been a favour pulled in by the C.O or similar bearing in mind they wear the same headdress etc.

Yes I am aware Pub user that we allocate work differently than other European users but surely 651sqn can spare 1 airframe for such a valuable recruiting excercise. Example 153 local Army cadets are travelling to Waddington by coach this morning, that is just one town, the potential turnout for new, quality recruits is huge. If 651 are so busy, fantastic maybe they are getting it right. But I have dialled a number of thier extentions and the Gaurdroom at Wallop and can assure you that there is no-one home until monday morning

All i can do is reitereate that is is pi** poor that after all this time and money and training we can't get a 150 miles to park on some grass. An officer won't mention any names managed to get a Gazelle into Warton for the weekend for his sisters wedding. Like to see you defend that. Not that Im against a jolly but what bigger jolly than an Airshow.

Did I just come accross as an anorak.

[kbf1]

Pub....you are talking spherical man-bits if you think that the only people who could operate the AH-64 as a theatre asset are the Crabs. Did you think when you wrote that comment that the army has no concept of strategic deployment? If you are correct in that assertion then I think we should all go home.

There are some infrastructure issues that need to be addressed, the hangar problem being one small aspect. As you will be aware, the doctrine for the use of the AH64 will be written on the basis of adapting the US/Cloggy/Israeli use of the machine and applying it to UK ORBAT. Once operational it will be tested under training and re-defined after it has been deployed operationally and will be constantly changing to cope with the changing environment we are asked to respond to.

I certainly think that there is definately scope to re-introduce the AG branch and badge and train them as devoted WSOs. The argument has been made that as the RAF have navigators they are better placed to operate this a a truely 2-man machine as opposed to picking a few pilots and re-training them to multi-task. I have also heard the barking mad nonesense that it should be an all-officer operated machine due to the complexity of its systems, again making it better placed with the RAF as all the pilots/navs are O's. Again, I cannot concur with this thought.

I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but comment was needed. You wouldn't be one of those jealous crab types are you :D

[Bob_Weight]

:o No offence to the cloggies, but they have their aircraft (as you know) under a different scheme than ourselves. Theirs are US Army (FMS) bought; they are instructed to fly in Alabama/Texas and they have a vary different situation.

The frustrations with the UK Apache program are nothing compared to other programs namely EFA, Merlin, Bowman etc. While trying to stay on track and qualify the instructors for the first upcoming UK conversion to type course; last week the Middle Wallop posy supported the Queens Jubilee fly past, a SF demonstration in Hereford and will spend all of next week at Larkhill at Army 2002. Those of you who know what this takes will understand that this is a large bill for a small group trying to keep things on course. The Apache is not only a goal for every spotter to have in his book of tail numbers.

Also, my understanding is that the UK Apache fitted into the Wattisham without having to saw bits off.

The cup is half full, honest.

[canberra]

i read an item in the sunday post today about british army horses. did you know the british army has 560 horses? and how many helicopters? i think that army and navy should give up aviation and hand it to raf. and i would include the paras in that handover. i mentioned this once to a para officer and he reckoned it was a good idea. dont forget in wwii german paras were luftwaffe. how many aac personnel would prefer to be in raf? and as we now have jhc why not go whole hog and merge, and maybe go even further and merge all 3 services?

[doh-nut boy]

Bob_Weight

Firstly, I wasn't thinking about tail numbers when I started this thread, I was trying to gain some sort of understanding about the reasons as to why such a good recruiting opportunity could be missed.

After all the Blues wera at Cosford in the pooring rain showing off thier shiny Frontera and Minibus etc, Surely it doesn't take much to send a crew up to Waddington to park up. Let the Blue Eagles Groundies keep an eye on the sacred cab. And if the crew are over worked planning for the upcoming week at Larkhill, what better facilities than the bases that would be hosting them, surely they are better equiped than Wallop. As Blue Eagle stated they managed to get one to Wattisham for the Wives club car boot sale.

Please don't assume this is an armchair general spouting off because he hasn't got his hands on the shiny new kit. Im also made up that you didn't have to cut lumps off it for it to fit in the 3 & 4 Regt Hangars. Saves us looking bigger arses than we do already!

In response to canberra, i may be slating my father Corps and going against the grain, but would rather have cocktail sticks forced behind my finger nails than be a crab, and the Navy are all lightweight ladyboys!!!

[The Cryptkeeper]

You really can't beat the old Apache debate for getting the Army and RAF squaring up to each other can you!!?! I can verify that we have, on a few occasions, had the mighty beast at What a Shame. On one occasion it broke down and had to be put in the nice shiny revamped hangar and fortunately it did fit!!! At least they got that bit right.........

[doh-nut boy]

I did try not to turn it into a debate about whose train set it should be, it does appear however that it has gone down that road.

Can anybody shed any light on the original query ? statement raised at the beginning of this thread.

[BlueEagle]

Clearly not.........:)

[doh-nut boy]

Everybodies local Magistrates courts, Detox clinics etc will be having a good clean out today, perhaps we should send round a couple of Bedfords, pick them up throw a Blue beret on thier heads and stick them on groundcrew. This would save the careers office plenty wonga in doing the same task.

[[email protected]]

DNB, I think the quality of the air troopers is the least of the AACs worries in fielding the AH - the complete lack of Greenies (fairies to the RAF readers) to support and fix the complex avionics is going to be a real show stopper once the REME take control of the servicing. The 'soldier first' mentality will have to go if the recruiting and retention situation is to improve - people intelligent and capable enough to fly and maintain the AH are also intelligent enough to see that BPFAs, ACFTs, Sqn PT, radio stag, gate guarding etc etc do not enhance the operational capability of the aircraft one little bit.
There are some excellent people in the AH programme at the moment but as ever they are banging their heads against the brick wall of the 'Big Army'. A fundamental sea change of attitude is required if the machine is to be used and operated to it's full potential.

p.s. The cloggies bought the D model without the Longbow radar so if you see one with a big doughnut on top of the rotor head it is either a. being serviced by a fat REME or b. a British AH 64.

[doh-nut boy]

Fair cop, your'e right it isn't the highest priority and i am perhaps guilty of going off the mark from the original questions posed.

[blind pue]

The Cryptkeeper

Did the AH have the Doughnut on when it went into the Hangar,
when I was at Wattishame and they had just finished building and the rumour was that they would have to take the Doughnut off or lower the floor.

The only Hangar it was likely to fit in was 7BN. or use the old Hangars but the Management didn't want their New Toy in an old box. :confused:

[RFHO]

To Crab@ SAAvn:- Good post thanks for that.
To most of the others who have posted responces to this thread I am concerned at the level of ill informed rumour/rubbish which has been aired on these pages.

Do bear in mind there are only 6 Qualified Instructors at the moment and they are working their butts off to keep the present course running. A limited MAR, a steep leaning curve for those maintaining and suppliying the aircraft all take their tole on available aircraft. By the by the course is just coming to the end of the night flying phase and have been on reverse cycle for the last 6 weeks (try that some of you!) so give them (students and QHIs) an chance to get some daytime kip and recovery over the weekend before starting again on Monday.

The aircraft (weapon system) is an Army asset. The AAC are just the people who are charged with getting the aircraft into a position to bring it's weapons systems to bear on the target at the right time. The target choice and the time will be the responsibility of the Army (Formation Headquarters) who task them and direct, facilitate and resupply the aircraft. Actually to do this well is a more complex task than flying the aircraft. For those lined up for courses the flying is a joy but also a challenge so be prepared to look into your soul!

Sorry off soapbox now! To all Rotary types remember 'Bags of Flare in your Engine Offs!'

[doh-nut boy]

Thanks! question answered.:p

Wasn't aware that there were so few who were qualified to drive it, will now shut my mouth and crawl back under the rock from where I came.

Shame rumour control coming from Westlands and some of the Flying Regiments are a little out of date & over exaggerated. I should have known better than to base opinions on rumours and apologise to anyone Ive upset. Apart of course from the crabs.:D

[The Cryptkeeper]

Blind Pue
It did have the doughnut on as I remember - I think that's why we were all pleasantly surprised when they managed to fit it in!
If you haven't been to the Sham for a while it's full speed ahead with the rebuild - another hangar is near completion leaving only 2 to do. There's buildings springing up all over the joint! The only nause is the constant shifting around of squadrons but it's a small price to pay to get shiny new flight offices!!

[blind pue]

Thanks for the answer,
I flew over in my bright red condom last month to have a look but there was so much traffic I couldn't hang around.
(not that I was going fast anyway)
I know what you mean about changing Hangars when 63 first arrived we managed to occupy all 4 of the old Hangars and still ended up with the least office space.
Hope the rebuilds are worth it in the end, it's a very pleasent place in the summer.:)

[A Grey Man]

Guys and Girls,

Please do all those people a favour that are working their butts of fielding this awesome capability. It is all to do with priorities and maybe Airshows ain't one of them yet. If you are in any doubt about 'rumour control' or crew room gossip, then look in the Middle Wallop directory and phone the desk that is responsible for the issue etc. DAAvn, JHC, 651 and AHTU should all give you sensible answers.

Please do it before posting on PPRUNE as some of you look extremely naive. Some of you need a good kick up the butts as you are expecting to be spoon fed everything. Read around the subject, surf the net, phone a mate on the programme, phone a shiney bum who is working on an aspect of the project.....anything if it prevents you from engaging gob/fingers before brain.

It'll work, but just like Sopwith Pup, Lancaster, Harrier, Eurofighter, Chinook HC3 it will all take a bit of time. Only take risks and cut corners when Atilla the Hun is bearing down. When the capability is declared, lets make sure that we are in a position to fight it and not just fly it around LFA 1A!

Can I hand the soap box over to someone else!


;)

[rolandpull]

RFHO.

You talk about reverse cycle. Does this mean that just like the americans over in Boz/Kos any future deployment wont be rapid if the aircraft is to be operated safely at night? or is an 'Apache tour' another name for permenant nights?

[teeteringhead]

rolandpull

If the way they work at Rucker is anything to go by, there are shedloads of nights, which doesn't please the "significant others"! The IPs there talk about suffering from AIDS ..... Apache Induced Divorce Syndrome!;) ;)

[RFHO]

rolandpull

Sorry I'm not the man to answer that question. You should ask a man in Green.

The point I was making was that all involved in training folks on the AH-64 are very busy doing just that and haven't time for 'showboating' elsewhere.

Those posts after mine sum it up well. If you have a question about Apache ask an expert.

[detgnome]

2 of those fantastic machines arrived at Shawbury today - is this a subversive plot for the AAC to gain control of Shawbury....?

...oh no, just 2 very new and shiny machines going into storage!

[doh-nut boy]

Grey Man

Did indeed call someone at 651, this is where the bum info came from in the first place. If you are around there at all perhaps you could ask them not to over exaggerate, over promise under deliver etc.

No one doubts any of the hard work you are all putting in and noone is saying that an airshow takes a higher priority, I was merely voicing the opinions of a great many ex corp members who wondered why a cab could go for a demo down at Wattisham but not to a far more valuable event such as the two shows mentioned. I am sure in time to come the people at Wattisham will be sick and tired of seeing the thing, and will get to see the kit within time anyway.

Trying not to deviate from the track, I apologised and agreed that bum info had been given earlier and the question was answered in that there are only a few people qualified etc, thought the subject was closed, however when info is taken from the horses mouth you would expect it to be at least half right. Should have perhaps known better.

Some of the other info came from Yeovil itself.........

[blind pue]

Grey Man

Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will)
The R in PPRuNe stands for Rumour.

As doh-nut boy posted the Topic in what I would call a humourous fashion 'Wot no AH64' and not
"The uncertain future of the Anti-Tank Helicopter in Europe: Where are we now? and why are we not at Waddington".

I am sure he was happy with a simple reply and thought it would allow the post to expand on this Theme.

If you are going to step on your soapbox it might be an idea to do a bit of research and check your surroundings, otherwise you will sound like a Crab.

Not a good thing for a member of the 'Corps'

[A Grey Man]

Yeah right, whatever........it may be 'R' but it still has an impact on morale me old china. There are some 'R'umours that are all good stuff etc etc.....but somehow I must question some of the 'R'umours that are not only damaging the Corp (just like Sun readers believe most of the print before them, the PPRUNERS regurgitate PPRUNE in the crewroom), but just makes people who are ballsout wonder why they don't phone. 651 can hardly give bum information......they are right at the coal face mate and the future Initial Operating Capability relies heavily on what they do and say. Either you were talking to the wrong person in the Sqn or there was a misunderstanding........why pass out bum information when they call the shots?

:confused: ;) :) :D

[doh-nut boy]

Grey Man

If you doubt my statement regarding where the information came from drop me an email and i will give you the names of the SSgt and the Capt who gave me the Bum info, quite right though why would they give bum info when they are as you say on the coalface.

Similarly the same info came from the team at Yeovil aswell.
Like Blind Pue said this thread was only raised with a little light hearted humour, how unlike certain members of the Corps to take things out of Context and jump on the bandwagon :confused:

[Beaver]

Canberra,

YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!!!

I reckon the number of Army Aviators who would want to become CRABS is in single figures! As for merging all three services, just ask the Canadians how good an idea that was - they tried it for about 5 years and then de-merged back to where they started, a really useful exercise in wasting money!!

[doh-nut boy]

Couldn't agree more, would rather have my scrotum pulled up over my head & nailed there than be branded a crab.

[teeteringhead]

Beaver old boy.

Hate to spoil a good bit of banter with facts, but on a point of information, at the last count there were 70+ Army Aviators (NOT necessarily AAC) asking to transfer to the RAF!

BTW, is that Beaver as in "Funny little aircraft to the south of XMG", or the more enjoyable sort??

[Navy_Adversary]

There are now 5 AH64 Apaches rumoured to be in store at RAF Shawbury, what a waste:rolleyes:

[Molesworth Hold]

Perhaps Shawbury should be known as the “Reservation.” Now, how do we take those blades off?

[Biffer]

As an ex member (and must of been for staying so long) I believe the biggest problem with the AAC is the jelousy and resentment.
This is caused by the honestly recruited, ambitious, of slightly higher aptittude than infantry types, and very keen young lads who join direct to the AAC.
Once these lads have failed their selection for aircrew and resigned themselves to a career an the ground, they adopt the "soldier first" attitude to hind behind and use this in their quick promotional careers to hit back at the flying side of the AAC.
Unfortunatley there are quite a few well positioned groundies within the AAC who continuously defend their soldier first policy and pull the AAC backwards.
This has resulted in the attitude of training first as this allows ambitious types to be quickly promoted due to courses attended and plan their careers around less work and clean uniforms.
It is true the AAC is a boil on the side of the Army budget but surly the support is there and I personaly know there are lots of aircrew types forced to fly desks to get this off the groung.
Time for everbody in the AAC to pull together rather than apart and produce a package that can be deemed as a reason to exist as apposed to guards, secondry duties, BFT, APWT, NBC, exercises and endless re inventing the wheel because the guys that learnt the lessons on the last exercise have left or managed to avoid the exercise due to weak management.
Sorry, needed that after reading all this cra* about who should, who could and all that.
Get out there and fly...
At the moment when an aircraft takes off on a sortie it still requires a pilot.
If you aint one, tough, get a life and realise your worth.:mad:

[BlueEagle]

Biffer is absolutely right - sorry to see things haven't changed.

I 'retired' in 1968 and at that time the biggest hinderence to progress were those clowns who had failed either Para or SAS selection or failed aircrew selection at Biggin Hill and then spent the rest of their careers calling the successful ones 'elitist'!:mad: