Wot no AH64
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Wot no AH64
Forgive me if im ill informed but I have it on good authority that the Army Air Corps isn't fielding an Apache at Waddington nor Fairford.
If this is pants info may I beg forgiveness, however if not surely Wallop have enough Avtur and a half qualified driver to get one to either event even on static display. Especially after not putting a Lynx in with the Blue Eagles. With the quality of the current Air Troopers etc wouldn't be an ideal opportunity to recruit people with half an interest in Aviation rather than take in the Scrotes and retired smackheads that are currently passing out.
Next someone will be telling me that Spuggy is on the Eagles, and theres a couples of splitarses on the team!!!
Confused and dissapointed
If this is pants info may I beg forgiveness, however if not surely Wallop have enough Avtur and a half qualified driver to get one to either event even on static display. Especially after not putting a Lynx in with the Blue Eagles. With the quality of the current Air Troopers etc wouldn't be an ideal opportunity to recruit people with half an interest in Aviation rather than take in the Scrotes and retired smackheads that are currently passing out.
Next someone will be telling me that Spuggy is on the Eagles, and theres a couples of splitarses on the team!!!
Confused and dissapointed
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What an absolute joke!
I am an ex member of the Army Air Corps and find it outrageous that a Cloggy AH64 can turn up when we are supposed to be Europes biggest user of the Type.
If the Decision makers are viewing this forum perhaps they could shed some light on the above. Also could they confirm that it is only a joke / windup that the aircraft doesn't fit in the new hangers at 3 & 4 Regt.
This next statement will make me come across as a traitor, this is not the case. I am all for the Corps moving forward and becoming a real battlefield asset instead of VIP transport etc, but this is beyond a joke, if we are not upto it lets hold up our hands and let the Crabs have it, surely there budget would accomodate it and give it the best chance of success.
A slightly bitter Ex Member.
I am an ex member of the Army Air Corps and find it outrageous that a Cloggy AH64 can turn up when we are supposed to be Europes biggest user of the Type.
If the Decision makers are viewing this forum perhaps they could shed some light on the above. Also could they confirm that it is only a joke / windup that the aircraft doesn't fit in the new hangers at 3 & 4 Regt.
This next statement will make me come across as a traitor, this is not the case. I am all for the Corps moving forward and becoming a real battlefield asset instead of VIP transport etc, but this is beyond a joke, if we are not upto it lets hold up our hands and let the Crabs have it, surely there budget would accomodate it and give it the best chance of success.
A slightly bitter Ex Member.
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Curious - Was the one at Wattisham on the 25th May a Dutch aircraft too? It looked British when on static display and I'm sure the guys available for questions were definitely AAC.
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DNB
It may be that a 'Cloggy' cab turned up because they've nothing better to do. I'm sure you'll recall from you time in the AAC that the British forces allocate priorities differently from most of the mainland European forces.
You are, however, correct in assuming that the AAC will not be able to cope with the demands of the machine. It's not the fault of their personnel, it's merely a case of inadequate infrastructure. They could easily become a battlefield asset, but the machine is too expensive for such a minor role. The AH64 should be a theatre asset, and only the RAF could operate it as such.
It may be that a 'Cloggy' cab turned up because they've nothing better to do. I'm sure you'll recall from you time in the AAC that the British forces allocate priorities differently from most of the mainland European forces.
You are, however, correct in assuming that the AAC will not be able to cope with the demands of the machine. It's not the fault of their personnel, it's merely a case of inadequate infrastructure. They could easily become a battlefield asset, but the machine is too expensive for such a minor role. The AH64 should be a theatre asset, and only the RAF could operate it as such.
Gentleman Aviator
It's not so much infrastructure or budgets that make the difference, but state of mind. Apache has the POTENTIAL to be an awesome piece of kit, but the Army's (not the AAC's) state of mind.
The whole complexity of introducing such a complex aircraft has been missed by the Army ( who at one time claimed there would be a "limited operating capability" before the end of 1999!).
More importantly, flying is still not "core business" for the Army, hence the need for a career AAC officer to go and do reely important grunt type duties to get promoted.
In the RAF, it is normal to reach sqn ldr (major) rank having done nothing but fly, and I understand there have been some who have got to wg cdr (lt colonel) without "flying a desk". The rationale I guess, is that flying is what it's all about, and you don't need to prove yourself elsewhere. Until the Army realise this, they won't get the best out of Apache.
Don't get me wrong - this is NOT a plea for the RAF (or RN WEbF) to operate Apache. I don't give a monkey's what capbadge the driver wears, I just want UK plc to optimise the operation of the aircraft.
And the AAC give every sign thus far of not being able to do so.
(stands well back, gets flak jacket and helmet out of cupboard .....)
The whole complexity of introducing such a complex aircraft has been missed by the Army ( who at one time claimed there would be a "limited operating capability" before the end of 1999!).
More importantly, flying is still not "core business" for the Army, hence the need for a career AAC officer to go and do reely important grunt type duties to get promoted.
In the RAF, it is normal to reach sqn ldr (major) rank having done nothing but fly, and I understand there have been some who have got to wg cdr (lt colonel) without "flying a desk". The rationale I guess, is that flying is what it's all about, and you don't need to prove yourself elsewhere. Until the Army realise this, they won't get the best out of Apache.
Don't get me wrong - this is NOT a plea for the RAF (or RN WEbF) to operate Apache. I don't give a monkey's what capbadge the driver wears, I just want UK plc to optimise the operation of the aircraft.
And the AAC give every sign thus far of not being able to do so.
(stands well back, gets flak jacket and helmet out of cupboard .....)
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Blue Eagle
Well done for pointing out that the Aircraft at Wattisham was a british operated cab, don't recall denying that.
The original question was why a Dutch one had turned up at Waddington and is also on the list for Fairford. I think its excellent that A UK operated cab turned up at Wattisham and the crew were available to talk to after. I do think that may have been a favour pulled in by the C.O or similar bearing in mind they wear the same headdress etc.
Yes I am aware Pub user that we allocate work differently than other European users but surely 651sqn can spare 1 airframe for such a valuable recruiting excercise. Example 153 local Army cadets are travelling to Waddington by coach this morning, that is just one town, the potential turnout for new, quality recruits is huge. If 651 are so busy, fantastic maybe they are getting it right. But I have dialled a number of thier extentions and the Gaurdroom at Wallop and can assure you that there is no-one home until monday morning
All i can do is reitereate that is is pi** poor that after all this time and money and training we can't get a 150 miles to park on some grass. An officer won't mention any names managed to get a Gazelle into Warton for the weekend for his sisters wedding. Like to see you defend that. Not that Im against a jolly but what bigger jolly than an Airshow.
Did I just come accross as an anorak.
Well done for pointing out that the Aircraft at Wattisham was a british operated cab, don't recall denying that.
The original question was why a Dutch one had turned up at Waddington and is also on the list for Fairford. I think its excellent that A UK operated cab turned up at Wattisham and the crew were available to talk to after. I do think that may have been a favour pulled in by the C.O or similar bearing in mind they wear the same headdress etc.
Yes I am aware Pub user that we allocate work differently than other European users but surely 651sqn can spare 1 airframe for such a valuable recruiting excercise. Example 153 local Army cadets are travelling to Waddington by coach this morning, that is just one town, the potential turnout for new, quality recruits is huge. If 651 are so busy, fantastic maybe they are getting it right. But I have dialled a number of thier extentions and the Gaurdroom at Wallop and can assure you that there is no-one home until monday morning
All i can do is reitereate that is is pi** poor that after all this time and money and training we can't get a 150 miles to park on some grass. An officer won't mention any names managed to get a Gazelle into Warton for the weekend for his sisters wedding. Like to see you defend that. Not that Im against a jolly but what bigger jolly than an Airshow.
Did I just come accross as an anorak.
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Pub....you are talking spherical man-bits if you think that the only people who could operate the AH-64 as a theatre asset are the Crabs. Did you think when you wrote that comment that the army has no concept of strategic deployment? If you are correct in that assertion then I think we should all go home.
There are some infrastructure issues that need to be addressed, the hangar problem being one small aspect. As you will be aware, the doctrine for the use of the AH64 will be written on the basis of adapting the US/Cloggy/Israeli use of the machine and applying it to UK ORBAT. Once operational it will be tested under training and re-defined after it has been deployed operationally and will be constantly changing to cope with the changing environment we are asked to respond to.
I certainly think that there is definately scope to re-introduce the AG branch and badge and train them as devoted WSOs. The argument has been made that as the RAF have navigators they are better placed to operate this a a truely 2-man machine as opposed to picking a few pilots and re-training them to multi-task. I have also heard the barking mad nonesense that it should be an all-officer operated machine due to the complexity of its systems, again making it better placed with the RAF as all the pilots/navs are O's. Again, I cannot concur with this thought.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but comment was needed. You wouldn't be one of those jealous crab types are you
There are some infrastructure issues that need to be addressed, the hangar problem being one small aspect. As you will be aware, the doctrine for the use of the AH64 will be written on the basis of adapting the US/Cloggy/Israeli use of the machine and applying it to UK ORBAT. Once operational it will be tested under training and re-defined after it has been deployed operationally and will be constantly changing to cope with the changing environment we are asked to respond to.
I certainly think that there is definately scope to re-introduce the AG branch and badge and train them as devoted WSOs. The argument has been made that as the RAF have navigators they are better placed to operate this a a truely 2-man machine as opposed to picking a few pilots and re-training them to multi-task. I have also heard the barking mad nonesense that it should be an all-officer operated machine due to the complexity of its systems, again making it better placed with the RAF as all the pilots/navs are O's. Again, I cannot concur with this thought.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but comment was needed. You wouldn't be one of those jealous crab types are you
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Wot no AH-64
:o No offence to the cloggies, but they have their aircraft (as you know) under a different scheme than ourselves. Theirs are US Army (FMS) bought; they are instructed to fly in Alabama/Texas and they have a vary different situation.
The frustrations with the UK Apache program are nothing compared to other programs namely EFA, Merlin, Bowman etc. While trying to stay on track and qualify the instructors for the first upcoming UK conversion to type course; last week the Middle Wallop posy supported the Queens Jubilee fly past, a SF demonstration in Hereford and will spend all of next week at Larkhill at Army 2002. Those of you who know what this takes will understand that this is a large bill for a small group trying to keep things on course. The Apache is not only a goal for every spotter to have in his book of tail numbers.
Also, my understanding is that the UK Apache fitted into the Wattisham without having to saw bits off.
The cup is half full, honest.
The frustrations with the UK Apache program are nothing compared to other programs namely EFA, Merlin, Bowman etc. While trying to stay on track and qualify the instructors for the first upcoming UK conversion to type course; last week the Middle Wallop posy supported the Queens Jubilee fly past, a SF demonstration in Hereford and will spend all of next week at Larkhill at Army 2002. Those of you who know what this takes will understand that this is a large bill for a small group trying to keep things on course. The Apache is not only a goal for every spotter to have in his book of tail numbers.
Also, my understanding is that the UK Apache fitted into the Wattisham without having to saw bits off.
The cup is half full, honest.
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apache
i read an item in the sunday post today about british army horses. did you know the british army has 560 horses? and how many helicopters? i think that army and navy should give up aviation and hand it to raf. and i would include the paras in that handover. i mentioned this once to a para officer and he reckoned it was a good idea. dont forget in wwii german paras were luftwaffe. how many aac personnel would prefer to be in raf? and as we now have jhc why not go whole hog and merge, and maybe go even further and merge all 3 services?
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Bob_Weight
Firstly, I wasn't thinking about tail numbers when I started this thread, I was trying to gain some sort of understanding about the reasons as to why such a good recruiting opportunity could be missed.
After all the Blues wera at Cosford in the pooring rain showing off thier shiny Frontera and Minibus etc, Surely it doesn't take much to send a crew up to Waddington to park up. Let the Blue Eagles Groundies keep an eye on the sacred cab. And if the crew are over worked planning for the upcoming week at Larkhill, what better facilities than the bases that would be hosting them, surely they are better equiped than Wallop. As Blue Eagle stated they managed to get one to Wattisham for the Wives club car boot sale.
Please don't assume this is an armchair general spouting off because he hasn't got his hands on the shiny new kit. Im also made up that you didn't have to cut lumps off it for it to fit in the 3 & 4 Regt Hangars. Saves us looking bigger arses than we do already!
In response to canberra, i may be slating my father Corps and going against the grain, but would rather have cocktail sticks forced behind my finger nails than be a crab, and the Navy are all lightweight ladyboys!!!
Firstly, I wasn't thinking about tail numbers when I started this thread, I was trying to gain some sort of understanding about the reasons as to why such a good recruiting opportunity could be missed.
After all the Blues wera at Cosford in the pooring rain showing off thier shiny Frontera and Minibus etc, Surely it doesn't take much to send a crew up to Waddington to park up. Let the Blue Eagles Groundies keep an eye on the sacred cab. And if the crew are over worked planning for the upcoming week at Larkhill, what better facilities than the bases that would be hosting them, surely they are better equiped than Wallop. As Blue Eagle stated they managed to get one to Wattisham for the Wives club car boot sale.
Please don't assume this is an armchair general spouting off because he hasn't got his hands on the shiny new kit. Im also made up that you didn't have to cut lumps off it for it to fit in the 3 & 4 Regt Hangars. Saves us looking bigger arses than we do already!
In response to canberra, i may be slating my father Corps and going against the grain, but would rather have cocktail sticks forced behind my finger nails than be a crab, and the Navy are all lightweight ladyboys!!!
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You really can't beat the old Apache debate for getting the Army and RAF squaring up to each other can you!!?! I can verify that we have, on a few occasions, had the mighty beast at What a Shame. On one occasion it broke down and had to be put in the nice shiny revamped hangar and fortunately it did fit!!! At least they got that bit right.........
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I did try not to turn it into a debate about whose train set it should be, it does appear however that it has gone down that road.
Can anybody shed any light on the original query ? statement raised at the beginning of this thread.
Can anybody shed any light on the original query ? statement raised at the beginning of this thread.
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Everybodies local Magistrates courts, Detox clinics etc will be having a good clean out today, perhaps we should send round a couple of Bedfords, pick them up throw a Blue beret on thier heads and stick them on groundcrew. This would save the careers office plenty wonga in doing the same task.
DNB, I think the quality of the air troopers is the least of the AACs worries in fielding the AH - the complete lack of Greenies (fairies to the RAF readers) to support and fix the complex avionics is going to be a real show stopper once the REME take control of the servicing. The 'soldier first' mentality will have to go if the recruiting and retention situation is to improve - people intelligent and capable enough to fly and maintain the AH are also intelligent enough to see that BPFAs, ACFTs, Sqn PT, radio stag, gate guarding etc etc do not enhance the operational capability of the aircraft one little bit.
There are some excellent people in the AH programme at the moment but as ever they are banging their heads against the brick wall of the 'Big Army'. A fundamental sea change of attitude is required if the machine is to be used and operated to it's full potential.
p.s. The cloggies bought the D model without the Longbow radar so if you see one with a big doughnut on top of the rotor head it is either a. being serviced by a fat REME or b. a British AH 64.
There are some excellent people in the AH programme at the moment but as ever they are banging their heads against the brick wall of the 'Big Army'. A fundamental sea change of attitude is required if the machine is to be used and operated to it's full potential.
p.s. The cloggies bought the D model without the Longbow radar so if you see one with a big doughnut on top of the rotor head it is either a. being serviced by a fat REME or b. a British AH 64.