Difference between IMC and IR?

[paulo]

I feel like I should know this, but - apart from UK only thing for the IMC rating - what is the difference?

What can you do with a PPL/IR that you can't do with PPL/IMC?

[BEagle]

1. Fly in Class A airspace.
2. Fly to lower instrument approach minima.

[paulo]

Beagle, that's not the spirit. Far too brief and concise.

What happened to endless waffle and pontification, slowly building towards a big row? :)

[Sugar_Junkie]

Next door along - waffle clinic

[andrewc]

As well as BEagles comments, you can use airways and have
to fly to more accurate tolerances, +/-50 ft vs +/- 100ft for IMC.
+/- 5 degrees vs +/-10 degrees...its all in all somewhat harder.

You emerge a better but poorer (wallet-wise) pilot,

-- Andrew

[alphaalpha]

The advantages of an IR allowing you to get home from abroad in IFR weather, are well known, but another advantage is: because IR privileges allow flight in Class A, you can often fly higher. This is a useful safety advantage when flying single-engine over water. You can cross the channel within gliding distance of land from the mid-point on quite a few routes, and the 'feet-wet' band across the Irish Sea is narrower. However, the biggest benefit is the improvement in flying skill and the confidence that comes with it.

[long final]

Can you use an FAA IR in the same way in UK/Europe in a G Reg. A/C?

LF

[Julian]

If you pass the FAA IR course you are entitled to add a IMC Rating to your JAA licence.

For full IR privledges you will have to hire an N Reg aircraft which, whilst scarce, seem to be becoming more and more common from what I have noticed.

[bookworm]

Can you use an FAA IR in the same way in UK/Europe in a G Reg. A/C?

No. You can use it outside controlled airspace but not for IFR within controlled airspace (including classes D and E).

[englishal]

...though you will have the UK IMC rating (if you have a CAA/JAA licence) so if you're flying in the UK in uncontrolled airspace you can use your IR head, but as soon as you enter a class D zone, then you must switch the IMC head on.....Unless you change the shape of the letter on the aircraft from this: G to this: N then you're quite entitled to use your IR head 100% of the time...(confused?)

Cheers
EA :D

[long final]

Thought that was the case - can't say I understand why G and N Reg. makes a jot of difference really. Thanks for the replys (please note - dare not ( darnt??? ) use an apostrophy anymore here on pprune, might get it wrong ;) )

LF :D

[bookworm]

There are two separate issues here, just in case anyone is confused by the discussion.

If you apply to the CAA for an IMC rating on the basis of your FAA IR, you may well be granted one for no more than a payment (i.e. no test) and you then have an IMC rating which you have to keep current in the usual way.

If you do not do so, you can still exercise the privileges of your FAA IR on a G-reg aircraft but not IFR within controlled airspace (including classes D and E).

There is therefore an advantage in applying for the IMC rating in that you can then fly IFR in classes D and E.

[N Reg Aztec]

Bookworm - Now I'm confused!

I have an FAA PPL Multi IR at present but no CAA/JAR ticket of any description.

If I apply to the CAA for an IMC rating do I need a JAR PPL to begin with - surely they can't just give you a rating with no license to add it to? :confused:

Finally, if I did get an IMC rating what would I have to do to keep it current? - Doubt it's self certifying like the FAA IR... :cool: :D :cool:

[DB6]

andrewc, airways = class A airspace, and tolerances? to pass the test;) although of course etc. etc.

[andrewc]

DB6,

Yeah, I know that airways = class A - I just thought BEagle
was being a little too concise about the issues.

To be frank I think that this thread really revolves around
currency.

Which is where the a) 'IMC is a get out of jail free card' vs
b) 'I can go into IMC to my legal limits' camps differ.

If you stay current, then b) is true, if you don't then a) is
true...and you'll probably sweat rocks when it happens...

-- Andrew

[aztec25]

Not sure whether all the info posted here is accurate. I believe you can use an IMC rating in IMC conditions in some Class D airspace provided the Class D has not been notified for Schedule 8. eg Liverpool, Newcastle.

Extract fromm CAA GID 15

PART 2 THE INSTRUMENT METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS RATING
INTRODUCTION
(a) An IMC Rating may be attached to either a UK or a JAR-FCL PPL(A). It extends the privileges of a
PPL(A) holder to allow flight as Pilot-in-Command of aeroplanes:
(b) Out of sight of the surface;
(c) When in IMC outside controlled airspace notified for the purposes of Schedule 8 to the ANO;
(d) Carrying passengers above 3000 feet above mean sea level (amsl) in IMC or in a flight visibility
less than 5 kilometres at or below that height, when outside controlled airspace notified for the
purposes of Schedule 8 to the ANO;
(e) During take-off or landing with a flight visibility below cloud of not less than 1800 metres;

This was confirmed by my CFI at home base LPL. Anyone disagree.

Let the "get out of trouble" debate roll on - it depends on each individual.

Fly safe

aztec
[I]

[DB6]

andrewc, how very true. I would say in fact that a current IMC qualified pilot will be a better bet than an out-of-practice IR qualified one (I know; I was the second one until recently and still need a bit more practice :eek: ).

[vetflyer]

Difference between IMC & IR about £14000!!!!!!!

And a lot of stress and yearly renewals ( = more ££)

Sorry for less than serious comment.

[englishal]

If you apply to the CAA for an IMC rating on the basis of your FAA IR, you may well be granted one for no more than a payment (i.e. no test) and you then have an IMC rating which you have to keep current in the usual way.

Rather than keep the IMC current in the usual way, so long as your FAA IR remians current, why can't you just 're-apply' and have the IMC added again without having to do any flight test? After all you meet all the requirements to be exempted from all ground exams and flight tests for the initial IMC application....When I applied for my IMC based on my IR, there was a box on the form asking when my IR expired. Now with the FAA IR it doesn't expire so long as you remain current, so as I couldn't think of anything better to put down, I just bunged down two years...and now my IMC is valid until the date I put in the box. Maybe I should have put 10 years in the box :)

airways = class A airspace

I wonder why they feel the need to make airways class A airspace? I would rather fly cross channel at 8000' than at 3000', but unfortunately as I don't have a JAA IR, my ceiling is limited to 3499' (where I live anyway). Should be Class A above a certian FL, for example FL100, and below this something else, or have an excemption in place allowing IMC holders into airways, but not nescessarily other class A airspace.

On the subject of IMC v IR, I would say, as has been pointed out previously, currency is the key. However, getting the IR requires a fair bit of extra training compared to the IMC rating, but after you are rated, its how you use it that counts.

Cheers
EA:)

[slim_slag]

I wonder why they feel the need to make airways class A airspace? I would rather fly cross channel at 8000' than at 3000', but unfortunately as I don't have a JAA IR, my ceiling is limited to 3499' (where I live anyway). Should be Class A above a certian FL, for example FL100, and below this something else, or have an excemption in place allowing IMC holders into airways, but not nescessarily other class A airspace.

Other jurisdictions have class A above 17999 MSL, low level airways class E, and transponders required above 10000 MSL. Seems to work fine, but attitudes to recreational pilots differ in different parts of the world.

Class A airways and to the surface is assinine, it would make more sense to use Class B. Even a mere VFR PPL could then request a clearance into the Class B and if workload permitted it ATC could oblige. You could then do your cross channel trip more safely, and isn't that what it's all about?

As an aside, I was on a 777 recently with those moving maps, and I was watching the altitude and distance from the destination (a class B airport in the US). At one point, the 777 was below 10,000 MSL and outside the 30nm Class B Mode C veil.

That means a large transport jet was in airspace where a non-transponder equipped fabric plane could legally be flying. Although the US system's use and classification of airspace makes far more sense than the UK, I'm not sure about that one.

[bookworm]

N Reg Aztec
If I apply to the CAA for an IMC rating do I need a JAR PPL to begin with - surely they can't just give you a rating with no license to add it to?

I would think you do. The point that I was trying to emphasise is that if you don't get an IMC rating, the FAA IR does not give you privileges to fly IFR in classes D and E.

aztec25
Not sure whether all the info posted here is accurate. I believe you can use an IMC rating in IMC conditions in some Class D airspace provided the Class D has not been notified for Schedule 8. eg Liverpool, Newcastle.

The notification "for the purposes of Schedule 8" disappeared at least 6 (yes, count them, six) years ago. If you read Schedule 8 of the ANO you'll find it makes no mention of that any more. That FCL have not got round to updating the GID beggars belief. Paragraphs (c) and (d) are hopelessly outdated. In fact if you look at the whole section of the GID it's typographical mayhem!

"(f) Subject to paragraph (f), in..."

englishal
Sorry, can't help. I've never been through the process of getting an IMC rating based on a foreign IR.

[englishal]

US airspace system has it sorted.....Quick refresher for those who don't know:

UK A = US B (Most busy airports, LAX, SFO, LHR etc)
UK D = US C (Less busy, but still major airports, SNA, EGHH etc)
UK B = US A (>FL180 in US, > FL245 in UK)

However in the US, most class C areas have a ceiling of around 5000' and most class B areas have a ceiling of 10000' MSL, and combined with this there are often VFR corridors allowing a VFR pilot to 'just fly through' without contacting ATC. Example of this is the LAX VFR corridor, a VFR pilot can sqwark 1201, and head straight through the corridor, directly overhead LAX. Same is true of the class C airports, which although are designated 'less busy' are still VERY busy. Example again is John Wayne (SNA) airport in Orange county, which is probably as busy as Gatwick. Climb to 5001' (I believe, haven't got my chart here) and you can cut straight across the top. One big difference in the US is the use of transponders. To be able to do what I have just described, you need to have a mode C transponder operating (theoretically).

Still there's no reason why IMC rated pilots shouldn't be allowed into airways in the UK, especially if they either have operational mode-c or restricted to a certain FL...

Cheers
EA;)

[flickoff]

Lots about what you can legally do with an IMC vs IR, but what in reality does an IR include training wise that an IMC doesn't, apart obviously for airways related work?

It seems to me reading the various threads of the "IMC's are crap, oh no they are not, oh yes they are" variety that the training for, and examination of, IMC ratings depends very much on where it was done. All this talk of 15 basic hours is a bit strange to me. When I did mine it took longer (not because I was crap, but because the school said from the outset it would!). The examination tolerances were +/- 50 ft, 5knots and 5degrees. It also include full proceedural let downs, both ILS and NDB as well as a "mock" SIDS and STARS. The only thing I can think of that it did not include that I have subsequently had to discover is the DME Arc. Perhaps I just went to the wrong flight school?:cool:

[GRP]

Is there a difference between an IMC rating as applied to a UK PPL(A) and as applied to a JAR-FCL PPL(A)??

My copy of the UK AIM which includes Schedule 8 of the ANO seems to be very clear on what an IMC does for a UK PPL(A) but has two contradictory views on what an IMC does for a JAR-FCL PPL(A). Read one way it seems to suggest that an IMC rating with a JAR-FCL allows you to fly in IMC *ONLY* in class D/E airspace - and not outside controlled airspace.

Maybe I am just reading this wrong, but the confusion seems to be in "Part B, Ratings".