Degrees good for ATCO's [Archive]

M8ttb

15th Jun 2016, 09:04

Hi all

My first post on here :ooh:

I'm due to start Uni next year, and wishing to become an ATCO. I've already been in touch with a friend who is one, and certain it's what I wish to do as a career.

I'm at a bit of a dilemma, though....I could apply now, but since I have little experience in terms of aviation I think I may not stand as good a chance as someone a little older with more aviation experience. Instead, I'm looking at doing a degree at an aviation academy, it's a 2-year foundation degree which has an optional 3rd year that makes it a Bsc (Hons). It's called Aviation Operations & Management (Pilot Studies). It looks really interesting and the course provider said students have gone on to become ATCO's.

I'd really like advice from you guys, is is something worthwhile doing, getting some experience and maybe even an opportunity to get a p/t job within the airfield where the academy is located versus no experience?!

Would appreciate your advice, tips etc. I guess I could apply now and then apply when I finish the degree, but seems a bit pointless to me knowing I'd probably be against people with more experience?

Cheers :ok:

M.

45 before POL

15th Jun 2016, 11:08

Getting a degree isn't necessary for an atco role, however if things change for whatever reason, such as not passing the spatial awareness or even the medical due to some underlying issue, you would have a qualification to fall back on and help in other careers. I work alongside guys/girls with varying degrees such as history,art, economics, English. I also work with others that have just gcses. All of what you need to be a controller is taught, its tough and a very high study rate. Having a degree can demonstrate your ability to study at a higher level. Do a bit of research, visit an airfield if you can to find information, prepare for interviews is what's needed.check the thread on the testing for an insight. Check Nats website and see if you can get anything from there too. If the degree course is what you want to do that's fine, but it's not essential for the role. You are right to do a degree first though.its a wise move and if you want to climb the corporate ladder beyond controlling within a company such a Nats, a degree is now being listed as a requirement on quite a few senior posts.

Dan Dare

15th Jun 2016, 12:14

I'm not convinced a degree is worthwhile for many people, but especially not ATCOs. You would be far better served getting some work experience in a numerate role while waiting your ATCO training slot. Having said that ATC is very competitive and the odds are stacked against anyone, so have a backup plan and maybe educate yourself relevant to plan b. I have seen PhDs not making it and a GCSE only being among the most natural controllers. Most of my middle managers seem to be uneducated, but driven. Many of my academic colleagues don't feel the need to prove anything and are happy "just" controlling.

If you have a mature enough outlook to get straight on the (very basic) ATC training course, you would be much better off just going for it and having an extra few years' pension contributions and no student debt. Before anyone cries "sour grapes" I speak as an Engineering graduate from a time when degrees were still a rarity.

M8ttb

15th Jun 2016, 13:13

Thanks for this, although I'm not sure what you mean about the very basic ATC training course...is that the NATS one? Someone was telling me that you can independently qualify with an ATCo license and seek work from airfields who don't have a NATS unit etc?

I know the requirements for NATS is not a degree, but if it gains me some experience with aviation and if at some point a lot further down the line i decide a change in the aviation world, I could fall back on to it?

kcockayne

15th Jun 2016, 13:24

Having an ATC aptitude & an interest in aviation & ATC is far more important than having a Degree. Although, these days, a Degree would be a help to you in getting you noticed in the first place. But, other than that, I don't think it is all that important to have one. I echo the other advice that you have received. Get some background knowledge, interest & experience under your belt .... & keep your fingers crossed !
In my day it seemed most important to be an ATCA & play football for London Airways. It certainly helped a lot of aspiring ATCOS !

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

15th Jun 2016, 14:39

010 degrees served me well.... except when there was a strong westerly wind!

10 DME ARC

15th Jun 2016, 14:46

A degree is totally different way of learning to Air Traffic Control, when the s**t hits the fan you cannot go away and write a 3000 word thesis to get you out of it!! :)

rab-k

15th Jun 2016, 15:10

My own BSc (Hons) is certainly not needed for the job, but good expereince at Uni, good prep for the NATS Student ATCO Course, (though at times it made the BSc course feel like a 4-year holiday), and always good to have the qualification as a back-up/Plan B to use in the event that the Student ATCO course doesn't go the right way. (Pretty high rate of attrition in my day).

Experience is all well and good, but your ability to successfully complete the aptitude tests coupled with how you conduct yourself in an interview will have a greater impact. You'll then have the Student ATCO course to get your Licence and the subsequent posting to your unit to Validate it to look forward to - which will likely take 2-3 years, and a good number of those bums on seats on Day 1 will not make it to validating their Licence.

Me? I'd do the course, get the BSc (Hons) under your belt, then apply for ATCO. Others may tell you different.

jmmoric

15th Jun 2016, 15:38

A degree??

055166k

15th Jun 2016, 20:08

Don't know which uni you are going to. Check out the University Air Squadron site......could give you an introduction into the aviation world. Good luck whatever you decide....ATC is a job second to none. A lot of good guys/gals on Pprune, worth thinking about what they say inbetween some of the funny stuff.

towerguy

16th Jun 2016, 01:12

I suggest ...

step number one before doing anything else - go do an ATC/Pilot medical.
no point in wasting any further time or money if you aren't going to be able to go any further. I have seen several people with their sites set on an aviation career coming to a screeching halt due to the types in white coats.

Then ...
taking the 4yr uni scenario and a 2 yr license and validation as example...

after 6yrs you are a licensed controller with a degree but little experience and only 2 yrs superannuation input. It also gives a period of 4yrs where life, marriage, mortgage etc can step in and change or ruin/improve things (depending on point of view).

OR
go straight into ATC then do the degree in your own time.
6yrs later you are a licensed ATC with 6yrs experience and super input and a degree. You will also have decided if doing the degree was even necessary and you have 6yrs pay in the bank. More likely you will be like the rest of us and be married mortgaged and deciding if the kids get a college fund or it's winter in the Caribbean or skiing in Switzerland for you and the missus.:cool:

been doing it for 27yrs now and before joining I did deliver a TV to a university once. Biggest laugh was getting a diploma in aviation in the post after they decided all the study in getting the license and upgrading over the years was the equivalent.

either way good luck with it . ATC is a great job and lifestyle once you are in and settled. A great bunch of people around the world as mates too.

AyrTC

16th Jun 2016, 13:30

My advice would be if you go to University it may be useful to get a degree in something other than "Aviation Studies" . If you choose a degree like Maths, Geography, Chemistry or especially Computing I think it will give you another string to your bow. It will help if you get a partime job,bar work etc because it will give you something to talk about.

You are obviously interested in aviation so you can easily remain up to date in your spare time.

Having been an ATCO for over thirty years as long as you are a misfit :cool: there does not seem to be standard ATCO type. I have seen people with top degrees not make it, and ruffians off the street who have been naturals.

Despite all of the selection tests I think it boils down to you either get it or you don't.

NATS are recruiting like crazy at the moment so why not apply now and if you fail you can reapply in two years, which you can use to go to Uni!

Also remember if you apply for NATS you may not get the discipline or posting you want. :{

Rgds

AyrTC

chevvron

16th Jun 2016, 17:59

Of all the trainees I mentored in my 34 years as an ATCO, the most difficult to train were those with degrees. They took longest and were more likely to fail to achieve competency.

Loki

16th Jun 2016, 18:40

I know of one or two ATCOs in my time who had degrees, but the best trainee I ever encountered was a former train driver, I also know of a former plumber and an ex cop. good luck, anyway.

M8ttb

16th Jun 2016, 20:09

AyrTC

16th Jun 2016, 20:57

Sometimes Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd take direct entrants and put them through an Aerodrome and Approach ( non radar )course.
https://hialcareers.co.uk/jobs.

There are no vacancies at the moment, this however is quite an extreme way to go because you have to be able to cope with a remote island posting which is a completely different mindset. I did three years on an island airport and it was good fun. I did however have the safety net of being seconded from NATS/CAA at the time and knew I was probably going back to Scottish Centre after my tour.

HIAL is now a separate company and recruit their own ATCO's.

Inverness is the company HQ and Inverness Airport has Radar, however it would be very unlikely you would ever get that as a first posting.

I must reiterate that due to the locations of these airfields the vacancies when they arise will not suit everyone!

Rgds

AyrTC

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

16th Jun 2016, 21:36

I have 2 GCE O levels, a cycling proficiency certificate..... and not much else. As someone else mentioned, I too worked with many people with several degrees, etc., but ATC is a skill, particularly Radar Control. Some have it, others do not. Unfortunately many trainees do well up to the time they have to do it for real and then..... One student at LATCC did everything well, including the simulator, but come the day he had to start live training he simply could not walk into the ops room. Another student absolutely refused to employ 3-mile separation on final approach - claimed it was too dangerous.

parkfell

17th Jun 2016, 04:57

A visit to the trick cyclist might have helped.
Choose your people carefully in the first place ;)

ZOOKER

17th Jun 2016, 09:46

parkfell,
Been there, done that. In the 1980s, NATS commissioned a well-known firm of trick-cyclists to develop suitable aptitude tests, having sent a couple of their bods to sit alongside us in the ops room for 2 or 3 weeks.
They went away and came back with said tests and gave us a presentation all about them. Very few of us understood what we were shown. All those present were valid ATCOs, several of whom had CPLs or previous RAF pilot/navigator experience.
When these tests were introduced, the ATCO Cadet Course dropped from around 90% to 20%. I'm not sure what it is today though, but it has improved.

When I went through the selection procedure in 1978/79, there were rudimentary tests which I and a couple of my unit colleagues were borderline on. We all did well (95%+ each) on the 3-man 'final selection boards' and all wnt on to become valid ATCOs.
HD is spot on too. In my time as an OJTI I met several u/ts who had sailed through the college, writen, simulator and oral-board exams all passed. As soon as they sat down with live traffic, they couldn't do it. Really nice folks who, NATS kindly found work for, elsewhere in the organisation.

alfaman

17th Jun 2016, 10:27

I see what you mean, a mixed bag of thoughts! I'm not sure whether to apply now or when I finish the degree. The bottom line is if I did it now I'd have nothing to lose right? And if anything, I'd be showing I'm interested in becoming an ATCO since I'll have already applied previously (if I wasn't to get in first time!)?

Are there other companies you can train with out of interest? I know that NATS is the one to go to with their excellent ops etc

The answers you'll get depend on the background of the person responding, & the one most suitable for you depends on what type of ATC you wish to go into; whichever, though, your chosen degree will add valuable background, so don't fret about that. NATS is one of, but not the only, training provider, if you're able to move outside the UK - most of the European providers will be recruiting soon, if they're not already. They tend to use the same test regimes though, so there's only really any benefit when you have a target in mind. You're correct, you can do the preliminary application & testing now, that'll give you some idea as to whether you'll at least pass that phase. There's no pressure to continue beyond that until you're ready, the pressure is really on the providers who need people asap. That's unlikely to radically change in the time span you're thinking about, so perhaps take the degree & see from then on. You have a plan, that's great, lots of people don't!

Talkdownman

17th Jun 2016, 12:57

Of all the trainees I mentored in my 34 years as an ATCO, the most difficult to train were those with degrees. They took longest and were more likely to fail to achieve competency.
Ditto. The aircraft spotters and/or ex-assistants were the easiest...!

kcockayne

17th Jun 2016, 15:14

Ditto. The aircraft spotters and/or ex-assistants were the easiest...!

I'd go along with that, talkdownman. I think that you can put that down to their inside knowledge, determination & motivation. Not that any of these attributes were their exclusive preserve. The other observation I have to make is that an experienced ATCO can readily identify who is going to make a good controller just by seeing him/her in action just once - more or less.

M8ttb

17th Jun 2016, 17:38

Thanks for this guys

Alfaman, what are the other providers for ATC? Is there any other providers in the UK? Be interesting to have a look.

Also, as non NATS airports, what do working conditions/salary compare like?

2 sheds

17th Jun 2016, 20:25

A former colleague opined that you could form an opinion from how the person drove a car. Probably just as good as the FEAST pantomime.

2 s

Talkdownman

17th Jun 2016, 20:53

the FEAST pantomime
"Where's the traffic?"
"You're behind it"
"Oh no I'm not"
"Oh, yes you are..."

ZOOKER

17th Jun 2016, 21:03

That's a good point 2 sheds.

I thought about voicing that opinion earlier on today. but feared it might be ridiculed.
During 1986, I and a colleague were commuting from EGCC to CATC while doing an area course. On the long journeys, many topics were discussed, including 'what makes a good ATCO?'
I remember saying that ATC is a bit like driving. You are constantly, and sub-conciously solving speed, time and distance problems, in a safety-critical environment. The environment is dependent upon Wx, day/night considerations, the skill-level of other participants, the physical attributes of the system, be it road or airport/airspace design, the regulations/procedures applicable, the potential for error and the ever-present prospect of the unexpected occurring.
Anticipation and pre-planning are key factors in both fields. In a book I have, an ex-Red Arrows pilot opines that "driving on a motorway, is like flying in close-formation with people you've never met".

chevvron

18th Jun 2016, 00:50

ZOOKER

18th Jun 2016, 09:06

chevvron,
that sounds like one of the tests I was given at Aviation House in 1978. There was a 'speed and accuracy test', which involved looking for identical symbols in a grid. The other test was similar to what you have just described. It was 3 boxes per question, each with a pattern of moving 'blips', but one of them was moving in a different direction to all the others. We had to identify it. Fortunately an interest in astronomy helped-out. It was like looking at 3 overlapping pictures of the constellations, and trying to spot the artificial satellite.

chevvron

18th Jun 2016, 09:15

Ditto. The aircraft spotters and/or ex-assistants were the easiest...!
I should add that some of those arriving for training who had degrees admitted to having no interest in aviation or ATC. They had graduated from uni and simply looked for a job with a good financial future.

kcockayne

18th Jun 2016, 09:24

I should add that many of those arriving for training who had degrees admitted to having no interest in aviation or ATC. They had graduated and simply looked for a job with a good financial future.

Within reason, give me the spotters & the ex- ATCAS any day.

ZOOKER

18th Jun 2016, 10:49

I remember one week-end during the late 1990s, 2 of us were tasked with showing about 20 people round, who were going through the selection procedure.I showed them the ops rooms and my colleague gave them a talk about what the job/training was like. I remember 6 or 7 walking out, realising it wasn't for them.

windowjob

18th Jun 2016, 22:44

"we found this test so unreal we just chucked all our test papers in a pile in the middle of the room!"
But not before we put someone else's name on them!:ok:

chevvron

19th Jun 2016, 05:31

"we found this test so unreal we just chucked all our test papers in a pile in the middle of the room!"
But not before we put someone else's name on them!:ok:
Ah so you remember!!

parkfell

19th Jun 2016, 11:57

I joined no.54 course in March 1983. All 16 made it through the ratings courses. The 7 who went to Scottish validated. I think perhaps three who went to London failed to make it.
The recruitment criteria is critical. I think the basis of ours was how keen you were on aviation, and not how well you had done at school. Only one had a degree. A third in chemistry.
We all wanted to do it, and half were assistants (class to class promotion)

A few years later the recruitment was based on other criteria, probably more acedemic success. Guess what, significant drop in validation rate.

So to my simple mind, you select those who have a passion for aviation.

chevvron

20th Jun 2016, 01:44

A few years later the recruitment was based on other criteria, probably more acedemic success. Guess what, significant drop in validation rate.

So to my simple mind, you select those who have a passion for aviation.
I put my name forward several times to be a recruitment interviewer but my boss at the time always refused to release me whenever they wanted to use me.
I would have asked candidates things like 'what experience do you have of flying?' and 'have you been a member of the Air Training Corps?'

kcockayne

20th Jun 2016, 08:31

I put my name forward several times to be a recruitment interviewer but my boss at the time always refused to release me whenever they wanted to use me.
I would have asked candidates things like 'what experience do you have of flying?' and 'have you been a member of the Air Training Corps?'

What would you know ? You only do /did the job !

parkfell

20th Jun 2016, 09:01

Just leave HR in charge with their psychobabble nonsense.

They know best, as ever.

Gonzo

20th Jun 2016, 14:49

I conducted ATCO interviews for nearly 8 years, 2001-2009.

At no stage can I remember a candidate who had a degree was more favoured purely because (s)he had a degree.

It's all about how you make decisions, solve problems, change plans, cope with adversity etc.

Equally, the fact that a candidate had spent time in the air cadets or had done some flying was not held in the candidate's favour in and of itself.

If a candidate claimed to have some pre-existing interest in ATC and aviation, of course it would be beneficial to be able to demonstrate evidence for that, but it's certainly not a requirement, nor an indicator of future performance.

The candidate should certainly try to impress the interviewers in terms of how they have prepared for their interviews.

Some of my interviewer colleagues used to ask all sorts of aviation knowledge questions, inside leg measurements of 747s, that sort of thing. That can be taught. Knowing that sort of thing doesn't make you a good ATC student.

I'd far rather spend thirty minutes exploring how you as a candidate cope with a rapidly changing situation, how you prioritise information inputs, how you cope with coming across a broken traffic light stuck on red in the middle of the night.

Brian 48nav

20th Jun 2016, 15:37

Chevvron,

I sort of agreed with your take on demonstrating prior interest in aviation etc but my own family situation shows the opposite.

My ATCO son had absolutely no interest in aviation, apart from noting that I seemed to be reasonably well paid and had lots of time off, but when he was on OJTI at TC in the late 90s the lovely Jane M***** reported that he was the best trainee she had ever had, excuse my choice of words.

My pilot son had wanted to fly Jaguars from age 8 after making an Airfix model and only reluctantly joined the Air Training Corps because I told him it may help his application for a 6th form flying scholarship. He left as soon as he had passed the Biggin Hill selection. He did fly Jaguars and years later is a test pilot with Airbus.

My own story is similar, lots of my mates in Camberley were in the ATC and desperate to fly, I wasn't. After one started nav' training I thought that sounds interesting, and you can guess the end of the story. Natural modesty makes me stop here.

There seemed to be more spotters among the ATCA/ATSA fraternity than ATCOs, particularly at LATCC & LL.

Gonzo

I don't wish to sound rude, but how come you were involved in ATCO selection at age 22 when you must only just have left the college yourself? I got my 'early go' from LL in early 2000, were you there then?

Juggler25

20th Jun 2016, 15:59

To the original poster, here's a reply from someone who has not long gone through the training process and age still begins with a '2' :cool: ;)

My advice would be to apply for NATS now, and should you not get through go with the degree. When you have said degree, have another go with NATS. Should it not happen again you have the degree to fall back on.

With the costs of university now it's really not worth doing it unless you're going to get some use out if it. The ATCO recruiters aren't that bothered about your qualifications, they're bothered about you being able to demonstrate the qualities they deem are needed to become an ATCO. Being able to get a degree shows certain abilities but not necessarily everything they want.

However, speaking from my personal experiences I don't think I would have got into NATS should I have not gone to university. The experiences I gained there (and I'm talking mostly about the ones gained away from academia - clubs/societies etc then the bit of travelling I did afterwards) I feel were vital to getting accepted. This is of course not the rule, I went through the college with plenty of people straight from school and they have become superb ATCO's (much better than me anyway).

If you do go down the university route, make sure it is a subject you enjoy. If you don't make it past the ATCO assessments there's nothing worse than being stuck with a degree in a subject which you don't enjoy and have a substantial debt outstanding in order to pay for it.

A few home truths to think about as well. The training with NATS will probably take you at least 3 years if not 4. Most trainees get put into the Area discipline which takes longer than Aerodrome and when you take into account any re-courses you may have to do plus holding the company may make you do while courses become available, it soon adds up to a significant period of time. Don't let this put you off though, it's still a cracking job with some cracking people.

Life always works out though, so don't fret too much about it all :)

Gonzo

20th Jun 2016, 17:29

I arrived at LHR in March 99.

I got involved, along with a colleague who was a matter of a 6 months more experienced than I was. We put our hands up when volunteers were sought. There was also a selection process to go through. I believe there was a push to ensure that some of the interviewers had recent experience of the training system. As an interviewer, I had a total of five days training over two different courses before being let loose on the candidates.

I remember on one of those training courses I got to meet the ATCO who had interviewed me, whom I hadn't met since that day, so that was actually very rewarding.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

21st Jun 2016, 15:30

<<It's all about how you make decisions, solve problems, change plans, cope with adversity etc.>>

Very different from my interview. Three Civil Servants and one ATCO (Ernie A strangely enough) questioned me In those days, candidates were recommended to read that morning's Daily Telegraph. I did and, sure enough, several questions on the contents were asked. The ATCO merely wished to hear about where I had worked previously and it all worked OK, much to my surprise.

ZOOKER

21st Jun 2016, 15:50

Ernie A was on my final selection board. I think he was in 'ATC Special Projects' at the time.

parkfell

22nd Jun 2016, 09:12

Zooker

You made very interesting comments about those who sail though the "academic" college process but cannot cope when in the OJT phase.

The answer might well be returning to something similar many moons ago when a few months were spent in the field after each rating phase to get a "taster" at a Unit.

I have heard similar stories in medicine when the baby doctors actually have to deal with real patients and simply cannot cope.
Probably personality has a lot to do with both occupations.

Call me old fashioned if you want, but quite simply, you need the osmosis to work; it cannot be rushed.

ZOOKER

22nd Jun 2016, 09:59

parkfell,
you can't argue with that. Unfortunately, like most things, it's now driven largely by accountants, who don't really understand the value of 'Famil'.
When we went through in 1979-82, we even did a 13 week 'ATSA Familiarisation Course' at various operational units. We were given our student ATCO licences the first week we were at Hurn and I think I made my first supervised R/T transmissions about 7 weeks after starting. I don't think that happens today.
Out of the 33 of us who started, 30 passed, and 3 of those subsequently left to become airline captains.
I've just spotted your 'location indicator'....Enjoy the golf next month!

parkfell

22nd Jun 2016, 10:33

Preparations are well in hand for the OPEN. Roads resurfaced. Lots of white paint.

I think I was the only one of no.54 course who went flying.

Have the beancounters appointed anyone to be in charge of the deck chairs?

alwaysmovin

22nd Jun 2016, 16:30

I was 3 years into a degree when I applied for ATC..... Had no prior knowledge of anything to do with aviation to be honest...... But I was honest about it and the interviewers seemed to be more interested in the fact I had loads of summer jobs on the go to pay for college .....then knowledge of aviation.
The 3 years study didn't come in handy at all but didn't do me any harm either . I'd just apply first and then if you don't get in go and study something else. Good luck whatever you decide

hiltonbaby

24th Jun 2016, 04:48

98.6 has always worked well for me.

NewquayJacob

5th Jul 2016, 20:17

I am 17 and want to be an ATCO. This year I got a part time job as an ATCA at my local airport, which handles around 10,000 movements and 4,000 transits a year, whilst I finish my A levels. I had been volunteering within the airport for over 2 years to gain experience which was what got me the job in the end.

ZOOKER

6th Jul 2016, 09:47

NewquayJacob,
Well done. That is a very good move. I did about 18 months as an ATCA in 1975/76, during which time I learnt a great deal which came in useful later on. NATS had stopped recruiting back then, so I left and did a degree in Geology/Geography. I started as a direct-entrant ATCO Cadet 2 months after my finals, but all the flight-planning and basic stuff was still in there.

eyesickle1

6th Jul 2016, 16:28

Got a degree in Maths, joined NATS last year, finished basic and a/d and am now posted and going through OJT 'as well as can be expected' for someone with no prior interest in aviation.

Love the job, don't regret doing my degree, interviewers seemed to particularly like that I held a job at a reputable fast food chain for 5 years to help fund rent money for my degree expenses, rather than having done the degree itself. Just got to put a hell of a lot of work in! Personally, the subject of my degree hasn't helped in the slightest, but the different ways it taught me to think about things has certainly helped. Apply ASAP, I had to wait 2 1/2 years for the whole interview process to finish and whilst it may not happen like that again, who knows.

West Coast

9th Jul 2016, 03:09

I suspect this is mostly a euro ATC thread, so it may not apply...

Know nothing of the various retirement plans you enjoy. A friend who was a US controller managed to retire at 52. He wasn't ready to hang it up quite yet. Wanted to try his hand at work outside of aviation. While he had quite a bit of experience beyond controlling, such as air space management, minor project management, etc, he didn't have a 4 yr uni degree.

He had hoped his employment experience would help land a job at one of the many defense contractors locally, the lack of a degree has stymied that idea.

If a second career is a possibility, get the degree!