The RAF and Brexit

[Fonsini]

If I was to visit an RAF base and have a beer and a chat in the mess about the general state of the nation, would I find aircrew and maintainers split roughly 50/50 on the question of Brexit, i.e. along with the general public, or is there more of a definite "leaning" ?

[Pontius Navigator]

My daughter's and husbands are all In, two have just come back from Germany.

What we have seen in France, Spain, Germany, Cyprus and Madeira is bbc better maintained infrastructure and cheaper goods in shops. Goods in bbc shops are frequently cheaper.

You might say the our £350m/week, or £240m or £190m, would make a difference, but would the Chancellor improve UK to the standard we see in Europe?

25% of the VAT we pay is controlled by the Chancellor as is vehicle fuel, car duty, alcohol taxes, tobacco and no doubt others. Of course, while he could abolish all these DISCRETIONARY taxes he would need to make a corresponding increase in direct taxation.

IMHO we are being manipulated to believe the EU is responsible for many of our problems when it is really our own Government.

[Wander00]

PN - how astute (IMHO)

[Tourist]

What we have seen in France, Spain, Germany, Cyprus and Madeira is bbc better maintained infrastructure and cheaper goods in shops.

Whilst not arguing with your wider point, are you having a laugh!?

Cyprus and Spain better maintained infrastructure?!!!

[Wander00]

Spain always seems to have amazing promenades in its seaside towns.

[Pontius Navigator]

Tourist, indeed not. Epi village used to be the preserve of goats. Now road, pavement and curbs all block paved. Street lamps all new, modern and uniform. Motorway from Paphos to Larnaca. Two modern airports. Spain, beautiful gardens in Cadiz, La Coruna paved frontage to harbour etc.

Admittedly these are probably EU funded infrastructure projects, but whose fault that we don't have the same? J bet the dead hand of British officialdom might have something to do with it.

[glad rag]

My daughter's and husbands are all In, two have just come back from Germany.

What we have seen in France, Spain, Germany, Cyprus and Madeira is bbc better maintained infrastructure and cheaper goods in shops. Goods in bbc shops are frequently cheaper.

You might say the our £350m/week, or £240m or £190m, would make a difference, but would the Chancellor improve UK to the standard we see in Europe?

25% of the VAT we pay is controlled by the Chancellor as is vehicle fuel, car duty, alcohol taxes, tobacco and no doubt others. Of course, while he could abolish all these DISCRETIONARY taxes he would need to make a corresponding increase in direct taxation.

IMHO we are being manipulated to believe the EU is responsible for many of our problems when it is really our own Government.
VAT-just one of those inconvienent truths Eh?

[DON T]

Although not a cricket fan, Beefy Botham asked a question the other day, 'On the day of the referendum, 23 June 2016, if at that time UK was not part of the EU, would you vote to join?'

[MAINJAFAD]

Although not a cricket fan, Beefy Botham asked a question the other day, 'On the day of the referendum, 23 June 2016, if at that time UK was not part of the EU, would you vote to join?'

Who is his employer??? I ask that question as a bit of research into almost every major celeb who is an outer will very likely show that they are working for or are close friends with a very small band of people who are speculators or newspaper barons. These people don't give two S**Ts about the effects on the UK as long as it sells newspapers, allows them to make a Monopoly within the UK (which the EU rules stop) or will result in a hedge fund currency market attack on Sterling or the stock market just to make a killing after a Britex vote. As for my still currently serving friends on facebook, JR and Sgt, Mostly out. Above, mostly in. Army, all out bar one (Ex RAF, now Commissioned TA RE), Bootnecks all out and nothing from the two navy mates. Own immediate family (55 years combined RAF) very much in. Saying that, quite a few of the serving RAF guys are very quiet on the Subject.

[Marly Lite]

I would urge EVERYONE to watch 'Brexit the movie' before they vote. It's on YouTube for all to see.

My opinion, I is that you are simply not well-informed if you just listen to politicians, you should take the well- made 'movie' into account. I am shocked how few people I speak to have seen it. It's worth a hour of anyone's time before they make the most important decision this country will make for generations.

[glad rag]

Thing is, with the "young" this european employment utopia that they have been led to believe just doesn't exist, there are very specalised jobs, very well paid, BUT it's very much a closed shop.

[Marly Lite]

MAINJAFAD. The same accusation you make of Botham could be made of 'inners' who are being bankrolled by investment banks who fear Brexit will make things trickier for them to trade.

[MPN11]

Too late to be persuaded ... our Overseas Postal Votes have been posted ;)

[plans123]

Marly Lite, if you see who is actually behind Brexit the Movie, you will see its a pretty loaded piece of propaganda and not Independant or a balanced at all.

[Wander00]

Plans - and you are surprised

[Marly Lite]

Plans. I realise it is not balanced, it simply presents some well-reasoned arguments. I have not seen anything for the other side of the fence that I am not able to pick gaping holes in.

I merely suggest though that people take the time to consider it before they make a choice.

[JFZ90]

if you watch "brexit the movie", do spend sometime watching "brexit the movie - a swiss reponse".

it knocks a few interesting holes in it - below the waterline :)

[MAINJAFAD]

I don't know about Norway, never been there, but of all the countries of the world, the one I've been to the most is Switzerland. Love the place, fantastic landscapes, love the food, the public transport system is fantastic and my favorite chocolate by far is made there and not sold in the UK. They do however only have a population the size of London, a GDP slightly smaller than London and have massive immigration problem that has increased the size of the population by 25% in just over 10 years. They can have a referendum about anything every year and have almost successfully got themselves kicked out of the EEA when a referendum introduced immigration limitations.

[Genstabler]

A case to remain in the EU based largely on economic factors is unsustainable. Economic factors change, and anyway increased wealth does not necessarily bring more happiness or security. A case to leave based largely on fears of uncontrolled immigration is similarly flawed. Immigration can be controlled and when controlled is not damaging. The absolute key issue in this referendum, which will seal the future of our nation, is sovereignty and who ultimately decides what laws we are governed by.

Donald Tusk, the EU Council president, admitted that eurocrats 'obsessed' with the goal of a European superstate forget the people of Europe are not interested in the idea. Mr Tusk said the EU had 'failed to notice' that the goals of its officials differed widely from the ambitions of the people in different member states. EU politicians were responsible for creating 'a utopia of Europe without nation states' and that 'obsessed with the idea of instant and total integration, we failed to notice that ordinary people, the citizens of Europe, do not share our Euro-enthusiasm.'

It can't be made any clearer than that.

[Party Animal]

Meanwhile, back to the original question by Fonsini.... I live in the O's Mess during the week at one of the largest RAF bases in the UK. From the increasingly frequent discussions over dinner and in the bar, my straw poll would put the aircrew at about a 60-70% in favour of leaving, probably with the younger end more keen on staying and the older age group more for leaving. There is only one engineer who socialises with our aircrew gang (not through aircrew snobbery, just because he's the only engineer who eats and drinks in the mess) and he is voting to stay. Take from that what you will.

[Brian 48nav]

Please please please delete this thread - I for one, am fed up with hearing and reading about Brexit. There are plenty of forums for those who wish to engage in the discussion, could we at least have ONE where we can get away from what is becoming a tedious subject.

My mind was made up years before the referendum was 'granted'.

Once again Mods

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SCRAP THIS THREAD!

[salad-dodger]

Seconded

The original question was okay, but never going to really work on here. The last time most people on this forum were in a crewroom was when Pontius was a pilot. One of them was even his assistant.

S-D

[Genstabler]

If you don't like a thread, don't read it. If you have something to say, say it. Unless it is offensive or illegal, don't sensor it.

[Pontius Navigator]

Must admit I am becoming more inclined to Out and I like Genstabler's analysis.

[Tankertrashnav]

The last time most people on this forum were in a crewroom was when Pontius was a pilot.

Or indeed a navigator ;)

[Herod]

The last time most people on this forum were in a crewroom was when Pontius was a pilot.

As my user name indicates, I was operational long before Pontius even started flying training. ;)

[Hangarshuffle]

Everyone I last spoke to in April who was ex FAA or still serving were voting to leave. This surprised* me at the time. Cant help but think the stayers are slowly losing ground.
Its all about the ever increasing immigration into our island, as seen and experienced at street level, something a lot of the great and the good just cannot grasp.
* I was surprised because I now think Service people are isolated-their working lives are so different to a civvies that they could be compared to living in a metaphorical bubble and may not always fully see or experience first hand the strain immigration inwards is bringing (IMHO).

[MSOCS]

It's pretty obvious that both camps are using very similar arguments to those taken by the yes/no sides of the Scottish Independence vote. We saw the No campaign were victorious, but only just. I believe this vote will be much closer and, having successfully divided and disenfranchised a huge swathe of the losing-vote populous, I'd be shocked if Cameron stayed, whatever the outcome.

I think both sides need to hone in on the issue that matters. For me it isn't about immigration but rather one of national pride, identity and Sovreignty. Economies veer and haul but sound governing will always see this country through such turbulence. I also tend to agree that Sarah Woolaston was probably a Remain tactical 'plant' to falter the Leave campaign with a fanfared defection. We saw a similar issue when Chris Christie moved to the Trump camp to falter the credibility of some of the more libertarian Republican runners, didn't we?

[salad-dodger]

If you don't like a thread, don't read it. If you have something to say, say it. Unless it is offensive or illegal, don't sensor it.
That's a fair point, but the posts on this thread bear virtually no resemblance to the thread title. Most of the posts are by a bunch of knackered old farts with no experience of the current views of the RAF, or any other service. I fall into that group too (although not as old or as knackered as some), but offer no view (on this thread) on the referendum.

S-D

[Alber Ratman]

The plebs will vote out. We will leave the EU. We may get some trade agreements. Hopefully we will not have to suffer that complete buffoon as Prime Minister. House prices will fall as so many people will be screwed with negative equity and mortgages that they cannot afford great times ahead. Tories cutting the armed forces will still continue.

[PeterGee]

A case to remain in the EU based largely on economic factors is unsustainable. Economic factors change, and anyway increased wealth does not necessarily bring more happiness or security. A case to leave based largely on fears of uncontrolled immigration is similarly flawed. Immigration can be controlled and when controlled is not damaging. The absolute key issue in this referendum, which will seal the future of our nation, is sovereignty and who ultimately decides what laws we are governed by.

Donald Tusk, the EU Council president, admitted that eurocrats 'obsessed' with the goal of a European superstate forget the people of Europe are not interested in the idea. Mr Tusk said the EU had 'failed to notice' that the goals of its officials differed widely from the ambitions of the people in different member states. EU politicians were responsible for creating 'a utopia of Europe without nation states' and that 'obsessed with the idea of instant and total integration, we failed to notice that ordinary people, the citizens of Europe, do not share our Euro-enthusiasm.'

It can't be made any clearer than that.

Some of the wisest words I have seen on the debate! Core for me is whether leaving gives us a better opportunity to make better in the long term by making policies that work for UK plc!

[The Old Fat One]

or me it isn't about immigration but rather one of national pride, identity and Sovreignty.

For you perhaps (and being a liberal democratic, I respect your view) but absolutely not for me. National pride....yuk.

For me it is about democracy, security, prosperity....and not for us old shags, but for those that coming behind us.

I'm just back from central Europe, where I visited a number of military museums. It's sobering experience, reading and looking at what Europeans did to each other in the name of nationalism, racism and facism. With our little englander mentality we forget the war torn slaughter of centuries of state-centric power in OUR continent and we continue to imbue the English Channel with magical powers we think will keep us separate and safe. A notion that is laughably absurd in the modern world.

We not only forget that these conflicts continue (Ukraine); we also ignore the constant dynamic forces that introduce new threats to stability and security (mass migration, religious extremism, terrorism).

Along with all the other global communities, the EU represents human progress. It happened out of necessity - to bring nation states together and to find common ground to exist in harmony.

I do not know (and I suspect nobody does) if we will be more prosperous in or out of the EU. I freely admit that there are many elements of EU democracy that are flawed - so what? Functional democracy is always subject to compromise in any organisation. The UK has a constitutional monarchy and a House of Lords - wtf have they got to do with democracy?

Vote how you want...the likelihood is the outcome will make far less difference to our day to day lives, compared to our own individual efforts, talents and characteristics.

But if you are intent in shoving human progress in to reverse gear, find a better reason than "national pride" ffs.

Peace.

[engineer(retard)]

The Ukrainian civil war was initiated by the EU expansionist policies and the constant dynamic tensions such as mass migration and terrorism are not being tackled by the EU, they prefer to stick their head in the sand.

[MSOCS]

Oh TOFO, please. If you harbour some paranoia that our country leaving this ''marriage' will precipitate inter-European war, you're no better than the other fear-mongers. Like all marriages, some stay good, some go bad but most start out with the right ideals. I think we've given this marriage plenty of chances but it's now rotten and in many ways abusive, so time to go. There are plenty of us "plebs" who think so.

The hegemonist ideals of Brussels are not in the UK's best interests. We've traded successfully for hundreds of years on our own backs. To think it all disappears after the divorce is pathetic.

[Willard Whyte]

The plebs will vote out.

As will many who are not so plebeian.

[yellowtriumph]

Tourist, indeed not. Epi village used to be the preserve of goats. Now road, pavement and curbs all block paved. Street lamps all new, modern and uniform. Motorway from Paphos to Larnaca. Two modern airports. Spain, beautiful gardens in Cadiz, La Coruna paved frontage to harbour etc.

Admittedly these are probably EU funded infrastructure projects, but whose fault that we don't have the same? J bet the dead hand of British officialdom might have something to do with it.
EU funding, hmm,

Please don't forget the 'EU" only has one source of funding - us the public. It's not their money their spending it's yours and mine (and the German's citizens too at the moment).

No-one else is paying for it and if we stopped shovelling over 350m pounds a week to Brussels we might have some nice roads and pavements here too.

[Melchett01]

For you perhaps (and being a liberal democratic, I respect your view) but absolutely not for me. National pride....yuk.

For me it is about democracy, security, prosperity....and not for us old shags, but for those that coming behind us.


I'm not entirely sure I'd say the EU has brought any of those, and I doubt that would change going forward. From elections that were re-run to get the 'right' result, democratically elected governments replaced by technocrats and let's not forget the intent right from the outset to hoodwink Europe's population into a political project masquerading as economics as written by Jean Monnet in a letter to a friend in 1952 shortly before becoming what was then effectively the ECSC's President:

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

As for security, you only have to look at the EU's response to Libya, migration in general, response to Putin to see that EU security is predicated on soft power, long lunches and conferences in various chateaux around Europe but with nothing to back it up. They spend 4x more on EU administration than they do on Defence and further security collectivisation would likely see that fall further as member states who don't want to spend on Defence see the opportunity to hide and let others pick up the tab.

And prosperity. Economically, aside from a few bright spots of well run companies or those with sufficient critical mass, the continued reliance on QE to keep the political project on life support - it's not about individual prosperity, it's economics as the enabler for politics - and the severe economic structural issues that only deepen the north-south divide both suggest that economically the EU has a long way to go to achieve credibility let alone success.

I really would like to be a good European, working closely with partners and allies across the Continent, but I wouldn't vote to join the EU now if that was the question. I don't think the EU in its current format is reformable and I think in many EU circles the British name is now so toxic that we have limited influence anyway amongst 'the good Europeans' and even a good idea can be damaged with a British tag. If we were to come out and the pressure of UK membership was relieved, I almost see it as a chance to be that good partner, playing a better role in supporting allies and friends without the pressure and toxicity of the current debate over shadowing everything.

[Union Jack]

I don't think the EU in its current format is reformable and I think in many EU circles the British name is now so toxic that we have limited influence anyway amongst 'the good Europeans' and even a good idea can be damaged with a British tag. If we were to come out and the pressure of UK membership was relieved, I almost see it as a chance to be that good partner, playing a better role in supporting allies and friends without the pressure and toxicity of the current debate over shadowing everything. - Melchett

An extremely interesting and thought-provoking reflection.:ok:

Jack

[76fan]

Pontius:- "What we have seen in France, Spain, Germany, Cyprus and Madeira is bbc better maintained infrastructure and cheaper goods in shops. Goods in bbc shops are frequently cheaper."

Are you suggesting that if we stay in everything will suddenly improve in the UK? That's a bit like those saying "we know there are lots of things wrong with with the EU but if we leave we cannot change things". I would be interested to know just how we have managed to change anything in the EU whilst we have been in so far. Takes me back to a conversation I had in about 1969 when my landlord said that if we joined the Common Market we could pay the same for a bottle of wine as they do in France!

The country has been misled ever since Edward Heath betrayed us, this is probably our last chance to regain control over the country in which we were once proud to serve.

I am ex R.N.

[Heathrow Harry]

do you listen to someone who picks their football and leaves the club in huff??

Hell no - you hope they fall off a high building and soon..................

[Kitbag]

do you listen to someone who picks their football and leaves the club in huff??

Hell no - you hope they fall off a high building and soon..................

True, but maybe the person with the football goes and finds a better team to play with. It's our football after all...

[PPRuNe Towers]

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/572167-eu-out-hampsterwheel.html

Rob