Manual Flying Skills in the Middle- and Far-East

[astonmartin]

Dear colleagues,

What is true of the stories that there is a requirement from the insurance companies to make autolands for airlines in the mentioned area's?

Same goes for requirements to have a minimum amount of western expats in the left seat?

And what about those stories about local pilots having severe difficulties with visual approaches and manual landings, when at the same time western instructors are busted when they ground those pilots?

[oldchina]

Flying skills in the US

What is true of the stories that there is a requirement from the insurance companies to never make autolands for airlines in the mentioned areas?

Same goes for requirements to have a minimum amount of Asian expats in the left seat?

And what about those stories about local pilots having severe difficulties with visual approaches and manual landings, when at the same time Asian instructors are busted when they ground those pilots?

[astonmartin]

I can imagine you are insulted. I realise I brought up a sensitive subject. Being easily insulted because of 'honour' might be a part of the subject though.

That's why I still think we should talk about it. I hear these stories more and more, and I want to know if it is nonsense.

Manual Flying Skills is everyone's problem, worldwide. But is the problem bigger in Asia?

[IcePack]

Think the problem is world wide now as pilots get "dropped" straight into jets.
No longer do they have to go through 5000 hrs or so of turboprop raw flying doing visuals & many many of those hours hand flying. No sim yet invented can compensate for that experience.
As for "loss of face" an airline cockpit is no place for that!

[Kennytheking]

astonmartin,

I think what oldchina is trying to say in his less than politically correct way, is that the stories you hear are a load of :mad:

I can't comment on the culture firther east than the sandpit and there may be some cultural issues but I suspect they would be isolated incidents.

[Global_Global]

Aston Martin are you sure they are still allowed to fly in the Middle to Far East? I mean they can hardly look outside the aeroplane as they are so small and their eyes are so much smaller they cannot properly look and see what happens... At least that is what I have been hearing :rolleyes:

[Herod]

IcePack has it in one. I had 6,000 hours on the F27 before my first jet command. There were no autopilots; our Ops Manager said it made better pilots of us. That was true, but I suspect there was a financial aspect too.

[ImbracableCrunk]

Flying skills in the US

What is true of the stories that there is a requirement from the insurance companies to never make autolands for airlines in the mentioned areas?

Same goes for requirements to have a minimum amount of Asian expats in the left seat?

And what about those stories about local pilots having severe difficulties with visual approaches and manual landings, when at the same time Asian instructors are busted when they ground those pilots?
Having flown both in the Far East and in the US, I can make an experienced opinion: The flying cultures are NOT the same.

I did more autolands in one month in Asia than I've done in 9 years at my current airline in the US. (And it was not because of weather.)

In Asia, the autopilot came on near 400'. In the US, I'd say the average is 5,000' at my airline. Often 10k, FL180, or RVSM.

To think that all that time with the autopilot off versus on doesn't have an impact on flying skill is laughable.

/rant

[parabellum]

I had ten years with SIA and the FO's there, on the B747-400, could not get enough hand flying, they grabbed every reasonable opportunity, they also did not want a practice auto land, (auto lands for real were done by the captain), as it didn't count towards manual landings required for consideration for command, as far as they were concerned the practice in the SIM every six months was enough.


Think I can say, fairly confidently, that the insurance industry would not get involved at that level, it would be for the company and their regulator.

[RAT 5]

Think the problem is world wide now as pilots get "dropped" straight into jets.
No longer do they have to go through 5000 hrs or so of turboprop raw flying doing visuals & many many of those hours hand flying. No sim yet invented can compensate for that experience.
Nothing wrong with being 'dropped straight into a jet' if the selection process is good, the training is excellent and the airline culture pilot & positive orientated. I did as you did via GA and biz-jets, but a visual in a twin prop is no where the same as a medium jet. Slippery by comparison would be too kind and over simplified. Speedy and inertia are also parameters.
If a sharp cadet is dropped into a jet with in-depth training and is then encouraged by demonstration, to make manual approaches, even IMC, then the handling skills relevant to that a/c will be developed. Being dropped in, basic training to past the test, and then forbidden to 'have a go' on line is the recipe for weak skills.

[Yankee Whisky]

Needle, ball..............airspeed got a lot of pilots out of trouble by hand flying the aircraft to a stable condition.
I think that most pilots will not disagree with this and it would probably have prevented some serious accidents in the past !
Being a glider and power pilot (tail dragger, no less !) gives me a basis for being critical of using 100% auto systems. One must be prepared to take over manually at any time and keep flying on an even keel and sort things out ! Therefore, manual flying should be encouraged across the air transportation spectrum.:)

[Offchocks]

our Ops Manager said it made better pilots of us.

That would be one Spud Murphy. Looking back and having finished my aviation career, he was the best Chief Pilot that I have ever had!

[RAT 5]

In recent airlines the 'recurrency training' was thought to be amazing. In fact it was not so relevant. Lots of dead stick landings and ditching after BA at LHR & Sully in JFK. Hardly consolidating or renewing missing basic skills. Yes, they were without automatics, but that was obvious. What they never introduced was a misbehaving autopilot. That is very different from a malfunctioning autopilot. That should be obvious; but a misbehaving one, with a "what's it doing now", & a "why's it doing that?" followed by disconnect and sort it out scenario. Never done, but very good value. More likely than a BA or a Sully.
There's training & there's ticking boxes to make then training dept' feel good.

[Herod]

That would be one Spud Murphy. Looking back and having finished my aviation career, he was the best Chief Pilot that I have ever had!

Yep, and I concur.

[ScouseGeordie]

You can't say '...one Spud Murphy.'

Every Murphy I ever knew was called Spud! Thinking particularly of the former ATCO who worked in LATCC/SADO. :)

[Matey]

Plus one for Spud Murphy. My time as a young FO on the Air Anglia F27 fleet was a perfect grounding for the future. Lots of 6 sector days in crap weather at places like Leeds and Aberdeen with no autopilot. Happy Days!

[jack schidt]

The Middle East has many pilots who flew before the glass cockpit concept came in AND are senior Captains today in their 50s. From my perspective in EK, there are many, very good operators/handlers with well above proficient hands on piloting skills. This is the same for most ME Operations I know of. Auto lands only happen in AWOPS.

Would I want a pilot to be proving to himself how good he is manually flying, not while my family (or yours) are on board. Simulators are the best devices to safely practice manual flying. However, IF the weather IS CAVOK and you are not on (or worried about busting) an RNAV SID, then by all means make good use of those RayBan shades and get some hands on time.

The safest approach is from 10 miles on the instruments as speed gates etc need to be met (safest strategy). I am not pushing loosing piloting skills, I am pushing safety through safest automation AND correct use of skills being used at the appropriate time.

Many in the ME are ex forces hands on guys, African Bush pilots etc, many would say the best Go Around is done by the A/Pilot. Safety is key and at the forefront of every passengers mind when they buy that ticket which of course partially pays your salary.

What I would like to end on is, this is the current case in the ME and around the world. The "follow the line" guys of the last 10 years may make this thread become more confirmed, regarding the thread title in the years ahead.

[astonmartin]

What about manual flight at FL370?

I have almost zero experience. And it is A LOT different then manual flight at 5000'.

[Offchocks]

These days manual flying at FL370 is all but prohibited due to RVSM airspace where there are certain requirements, one being a height lock (auto pilot) being engaged.
Also manual flying at FL370 is different than flying at 5000ft, the aircraft being more stable at the lower altitude.

[seen_the_box]

jack_schidt starts from the premise that flying manually is somehow inherently 'less safe' than flying with the automatics. Such an assertion is simply wrong. Using the inappropriate level of automation for the prevailing conditions is what is inherently unsafe.

The 'gates', stability criteria etc. are exactly the same regardless of the level of automation employed, and I'd even suggest that there is a noticeable tendency to fly more conservatively when flying manually that when making full use of the automatics.

With proper training and regular practice (as both PF and PM) manual flight need not degrade safety at all.

[+TSRA]

Would I want a pilot to be proving to himself how good he is manually flying, not while my family (or yours) are on board. Simulators are the best devices to safely practice manual flying. However, IF the weather IS CAVOK and you are not on (or worried about busting) an RNAV SID, then by all means make good use of those RayBan shades and get some hands on time.

The safest approach is from 10 miles on the instruments as speed gates etc need to be met (safest strategy). I am not pushing loosing piloting skills, I am pushing safety through safest automation AND correct use of skills being used at the appropriate time.

What a load of rubbish.

First, pilots have to fly in all manner of weather. The three times an autopilot has crapped out on me, I was night IMC flying through crap weather - not during something so simple as an RNAV SID when it was CAVOK. That's the type of thinking that has got this industry into this mess to begin with. If you're honestly nervous about flying any type of procedure, then that indicates you need more hand time.

Second, simulators are not the best method for hand flying experience. They're "ok" at best. There are things the simulator simply cannot reproduce that you have to contend with when hand flying. Frankly, I want my family to know the guys and gals up front can still fly - and button pushing is not hand flying. Neither is autopilot off, autothrottle on.

Finally, 10 miles final being the "safest." Give me a break. You could have a 50 mile final and blow it all in the last 10 feet. Any pilot should be able to hand fly any short final that the airplane is capable of to a safe landing...besides, a lot of the new "super safe" RNP approaches don't have anywhere near a 10 mile final, so please explain that logic.

[Centaurus]

and there may be some cultural issues but I suspect they would be isolated incidents.

You mean like all the terrorist suicide bombers we read about everyday, slaughtering innocents in Europe, the Middle East and Asia. Nothing more than isolated incidents. Yeah - right...

[de facto]

Boeing write on automatics…to reduce workload.pilots should reduce automatics at times….well thats if doing so doesn't increase the workload nowadays:eek: