How do you get charged for your aircraft hire?

[Hackett]

Morning ladies and gents.

I've recently moved over 120 miles and as such joined a new flying club. My last club charged rental from brakes off to brakes on which I've always seen as a fair way to do things. This new club however charges on the Hobbs meter which starts charging as soon as the engine starts (and appears to run slightly fast if I'm honest). It's already proved to be a costly difference with an average of £30 per hour more expensive. In fact it would work out cheaper for me to drive back to my last club and fly their aircraft. My issue with this is it encourages pilots to rush their checks, as well as completely not bother allowing the oil temp to come up.

I'm interested to know how most other clubs charge their hire? And what are your thoughts?

From a personal pov, if I was an owner and I rented my aircraft out I would much rather a pilot waited a couple of mins for the oil temp to rise before TO and I see no point charging them when the engine is happily sitting at circa 1000rpm with minimal engine wear. On top of this I begrudge paying for time that I'm not putting in my logbook...as we all know "logbookable" time is chocks to chocks.

What's ya thoughts??

[Capt Kremmen]

For me, 'logbookable' time is from engine start time. Clubs charge whatever works to their advantage.

[Genghis the Engineer]

For me, 'logbookable' time is from engine start time. Clubs charge whatever works to their advantage.
Which means that you are, of course, either embellishing your logbook, or damaging engines by loading them before they've warmed up.

I've seen just about every variation on aircraft charging - but logbook is chock-to-chock in every civilian regime I know of.

My favourite is to charge on tacho, as it scales to engine revs so that if the pilot treats the engine gently, he gets more hours, and the owner gets a better cared for aeroplane. That, to me, is a win:win.

G

[MrAverage]

We charge tacho on all our aircraft, except the one that has an airborne time meter. Tacho is the fairest way and cannot be "massaged" like chocks time. The club members, whether students or PPLs, pay far less per minute whilst taxying and are therefore less likely to rush. On the other hand, if they fly fast cruise (high rpm) they pay more per minute but are charged for less minutes because they get to the destination quicker. The biggest drawback for us is that the rates look very expensive to the uninitiated.....................

[The Ancient Geek]

I have always used Hobbs or Tacho, whichever is fitted.
This makes it easy to keep track and to audit both pilot and aircraft logs,

[airpolice]

I've been a member of three clubs, two of them charge wheels up to wheels down plus 5 mins either side, for startup, checks, taxy time n shutdown, regardless of how long you actually took.

The other club charge wheels up to wheels down plus five minutes, regardless of how long you run the engine.

[Hackett]

Thank you for the replies, I would be more than happy with tacho charging as I personally think I am a mechanically minded pilot and always take care of the engine, whether that be airborne or taxying. I agree that brakes to brakes is open to being abused by some and as such the owner fits the bill which isn't fair but I certainly never did that before. Generally I'd always round up to the nearest 5 mins so if anything the owner was getting a good deal and I assumed that how most would do it. This Hobbs malarkey I feel is unfair, I am not pilot in command (for logbook purposes) of the aircraft for example when I stick the master on as park of my walk around so why should I fit the bill as the Hobbs merrily ticks over.

Any way I'm having a bit of a rant here, I've just done a type conversion on another aircraft which is known for having a slow Hobbs, you win some you lose some I suppose.

Cheers

[Capt Kremmen]

GtE

Don't be ridiculous.

[TheOddOne]

The biggest drawback for us is that the rates look very expensive to the uninitiated.....................

...and this is the biggest problem. I'd love to go back to charging by tacho for all the good reasons given but from a marketing point of view, it's a big 'no-no'. Great for a group but not for a Club selling flying training.

We're currently charging for the time shown on the ADF timer, as there is an avionics master switch and it comes on with that, so there is some warm-up time before charging starts and it's probably pretty accurate. We note the time to the nearest 5 mins anyway, for instance 45 mins if it says 47. Since we charge decimal, you only pay .7 for 47 mins, which is a pretty good deal!

Now we'll thread-drift into whether or not you should keep your logbook in actual mins or decimal!!

TOO

[Genghis the Engineer]

For me, 'logbookable' time is from engine start time

Which means that you are, of course, either embellishing your logbook, or damaging engines by loading them before they've warmed up.

GtE

Don't be ridiculous.



Meaning of in flight

256 (1) An aircraft is deemed to be in flight:
(a) in the case of a piloted flying machine, from the moment when, after the embarkation of its crew for the purpose of taking off, it first moves under its own power, until the moment when it next comes to rest after landing

Or in other words, NOT, from engine start. Logging from engine start to engine stop, is logging more hours than you are entitled to. Fine for an operator to charge to that so long as everybody knows, although not exactly calculated to ensure a proper warm up time.

Which we all passed exams on once upon a time!

G

[foxmoth]

When the engine starts, that's when the costs are exhumed, and not on the Hobbs when the master switch is turned on.
Actually the major costs are exhumed from wheels off to wheels on, this is what counts for engine hours and the fuel used while taxying is relatively low, so if working on cost that is how you should charge - but it seems to be generally accepted to charge chock to chock either by time or some sort of meter, be it Hobbs or Tacho.
Our aircraft shows airborne time on the Dynon which is very accurate (unless you are doing land and taxi back to the hold) so we use that.

[tmmorris]

What matters at a busy airfield is not to charge for taxying time or holding. That makes pilots rush, and leads to takeoff with engine not warmed, or, worse, mistakes.

Our club has just changed from wheels up to wheels down, to tacho. Sadly because some people appear to have been creative with their timings, the tacho doesn't lie... The tacho tracks close to actual time at 65% but slightly faster at 75%.

[Capt Kremmen]

The moment the engine starts I'm in control. I go thru' my checks and if satisfactory, with the needles off the stops, I taxi to the hold some five to six minutes distanr, I do have water and oil radiator blinds tailored to the season and relevant average OAT. By the time I get to the hold for my departure checks the temps are climbing nicely, By the time I line up, I'm almost at full operating temperature. The climb out does the rest.

[Oldpilot55]

A club I was once a member of used to use Trakfax. A box on the coaming recorded hours flown but only when it was plugged in. The connection was removed by the unscrupulous to reduce their hourly bill. It was beyond the intelligence of the committee to work out how to solve this.

[A and C]

You are correct, the primary reason for the change was that there had been some major mistakes in the tech logs with the HH:MM arithmetic that could have ( in one case ) resulted in the aircraft overrunning a maintenance check by 17 hours.

There had been very occasional incidents of tailwinds in both directions but these have been few and far between.

The fact that Lycoming recommend flight at 60 % power for longest engine life and the airborne time is very close to take off to touchdown times is at 65% power results in the aircraft being flown at the most economical settings for both the club and the renters.

Those who use higher power settings will pay more and the engine life vs actual time in the air will be reduced to take account of the reduction in engine life resulting from high power settings.

[Tinstaafl]

Every region in which I've held a licence, including the UK, defined 'time in service' (TIS) ie accrued time for the purposes of maintenance, as '...from when the aircraft became airborne until it next alighted'. Synonymous with 'wheels off to wheels on'. That period is the minimum amount of time that must be recorded to determine maintenance interval. Time accrued that does not involve flight is not considered for TIS calculation.

As long as whatever method you use accrues *at least* that time then it doesn't matter (to the Authorities) what method you use. They don't care if required maintenance is completed more frequently. However, the owner/operator should! Doing maintenance more frequently than is required makes the operating cost of the aircraft greater.

At a minimum recording time by the clock meets the rules. Tacho fudges the period because it is not strictly recording that which is required. It is arguable that, at continuous low power flight, the operator is not complying with the regulations. I know I've done numerous flights where the tacho showed less time accrued than the TIS. If tacho is used to track TIS in those cases then the rules are not being complied with.

I don't know why many operators don't make use of weight-on-wheels switches - when available - or fit an airswitch to activate a Hobbs recorder. It makes determining TIS sooo much easier.

Charging for the aircraft use is up to the operator. Any method that the users will bear is fair game, although using the same Hobbs that tracks TIS makes things easy. It also removes the price pressure of the user to rush warming & conducting pre-takeoff checks. If renting 'wet' then adding an allowance for fuel used during start & taxi takes care of the - slight - additional cost from that part of the plane's use. Admittedly the catch is that it adds motivation to run the engine hard, but a price penalty based on tacho difference soon stops that behaviour, as do excess fuel consumption surcharges.

[n5296s]

I've seen just about every variation on aircraft charging - but logbook is chock-to-chock in every civilian regime I know of.

Really? I can't actually find an FAA definition. 61.51 says a lot about logging flight time, but doesn't say exactly when it starts and stops. I was always taught engine start-to-stop. But on every airport I've flown from, the difference between this and chock-to-chock is negligible. It could be different, I suppose, if your tiedown was at the end of the runway. Realistically, you have to taxi to the runway, which is done at the same power setting as engine warmup, so you can do it as soon as the engine is running and you have done post-start checks. Similarly, once you've arrived at your parking spot, you don't wait long to shut down (except in a truly turbocharged aircraft maybe).

The helicopter is different, since you do full warm-up and cool down procedure before/after you move, and actually in the heli I log Hobbs time, which is controlled by the collective in the R44.

[Edited to add...] In fact it's in 61.1, and it does says "moves under its own power... until it comes to a halt" so it is strictly chock-to-chock. But for a normal fixed wing flight the difference is maybe a minute at most.

[dobbin1]

.............

I don't know why many operators don't make use of weight-on-wheels switches - when available - or fit an airswitch to activate a Hobbs recorder. It makes determining TIS sooo much easier.

Charging for the aircraft use is up to the operator. Any method that the users will bear is fair game, although using the same Hobbs that tracks TIS makes things easy. It also removes the price pressure of the user to rush warming & conducting pre-takeoff checks. If renting 'wet' then adding an allowance for fuel used during start & taxi takes care of the - slight - additional cost from that part of the plane's use. Admittedly the catch is that it adds motivation to run the engine hard, but a price penalty based on tacho difference soon stops that behaviour, as do excess fuel consumption surcharges.

Our (Cubair at Redhill) aircraft use Hobbs meters attached to an air switch to record takeoff to landing time. We charge takeoff to landing plus 0.2 (ie 12 mins) to cover taxy time. This system has all the advantages mentioned above but also keeps the headline hourly rate comparable to organisations that charge block to block. Students and renters sometimes log more time than they pay for.

[Camargue]

I guess hobbs is at its worst if you're the 1st up on a very cold winters morning and have 5 mins on the clock before you even move.

[Flyingmac]

I guess hobbs is at its worst if you're the 1st up on a very cold winters morning and have 5 mins on the clock before you even move.

Or 15 minutes with some Rotax powered machines.:( I've seen a Eurostar on Hobbs cost more than a C172 on Tacho.

[Tinstaafl]

If the Hobbs is wired through the master or oil pressure, yes. But if it's via an airswitch or WoW, then it isn't activated during warm-up.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I was always taught engine start-to-stop. But on every airport I've flown from, the difference between this and chock-to-chock is negligible.
Depends how long you spend programming the route into the G1000 with the engine running :)

[Camargue]

Ive just joined a club using hobbs. Ill see how it goes, but if its silly i'll just fly at very high power settings when i want to get somewhere.

Though if it works from battery master, what happens if you go off with a mate, land at farm strip say and depart by hand swinging it??

[n5296s]

I guess hobbs is at its worst if you're the 1st up on a very cold winters morning and have 5 mins on the clock before you even move.
Take your feet off the pedals for a couple of seconds. You will now have moved under your own power. At least you can log the time.

Depends how long you spend programming the route into the G1000 with the engine running

Not long - the first couple of waypoints and the destination is the most I would ever do on the ground. At least in the US, you almost certainly won't fly what you filed anyway. So entering half a dozen or more waypoints is just a waste of time.

[tmmorris]

Camargue or indeed turn the master off in flight...

[foxmoth]

Though if it works from battery master, what happens if you go off with a mate, land at farm strip say and depart by hand swinging it??

Or just turn off the battery master during flight if you do not need the electrics! (Not sure why hand swinging in itself will actually make much difference)

[A and C]

I did look at a few options when moving from the take off to landing charging via the log books.

The Hobbs run by the master switch just encourages people to rush, both checks and not letting the engine get warm before take off.

Hobbs run by an airspeed switch was an option but cost to install was an issue.

GPS glider loggers are an interesting idea but instatalation was an issue.

There was a very interesting option of a combined GPS logger that sent the flight info via the mobile phone network to the club accounting system, for this system the providers charged a small fee for each transaction, while being the best system technically and one that I would have fitted if I was running 20 aircraft the administration costs for three aircraft did not justify the cost. But as an aircraft owner the prospect of the charge for the flight being extracted by direct debit from the pilots bank account milliseconds after the master switch is turned off is very attractive !

In the end aircraft engine Tacho time won the day with those who use the aircraft consideratly being at a slight advantage with those flying at high power paying more, with no installation costs this seems to have solved the problems of HH:MM arithmetic errors by replacing it with decimal arithmetic.

[tmmorris]

...though ironically about a month after I finally decided, after fifteen years, to start logging my time in hours:minutes instead of decimal. Ho hum.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I pay block to block as measured and reported by me using my watch, to the nearest five minutes. On days when I forget to look at my watch I get the take-off and landing times from ATC (which are now shown on a screen in the club, you don't even have to phone them any more) and add ten minutes.

[squidie]

We get charged airborne time (T/O and Landing) + ten minutes for taxy. This sometimes works in our favour if we are taxying and holding for 20 minutes but sometimes it doesn’t.

[foxmoth]

We get charged airborne time (T/O and Landing) + ten minutes for taxy. This sometimes works in our favour if we are taxying and holding for 20 minutes but sometimes it doesn’t

I would be surprised if your total taxi time (remembering to include taxi in) is much less than 10 minutes, I can be pretty quick but getting airborne in under 5 mins needs starting pretty close to the runway threshold, and at most airfields that will mean a longer taxi in, most people do well to taxi out, do the checks and get in the air in under 10 mins, so adding 15 mins to airborne would not be unfair - though of course this time does not count towards engine hours!

[airpolice]

Cumbernauld is a good example of a short taxy back. You can be parked in less than a minute from touchdown. Prestwick on the other hand, you can spend five minutes just making your way back from the end of the runway to the apron.

[pattern_is_full]

Interesting how much - variation - there must be in operating habits, and assumptions.

When I rented here in the US, all flights were timed (for rental cost and logbooks) from the Hobbs meter.

I assumed (was told) the Hobbs ran on engine time, since it was used for determining time to next overhaul. But it didn't really matter. The difference between Master switch time and engine time amounted to seconds at most.

Hop in - master ON - lower flaps, check fuel gauges as flaps came down - master OFF. 20 seconds at most. Add one minute if you had to radio-call fuel truck for top-up. Do walk around with power off.

External checks and most internal checks done without need for electric or engine power. Master switch was turned on again just (10 seconds max) before starting. Never ran avionics off the battery alone - I wanted that juice for starting, plus didn't want the AV on during start in case of voltage transients. Logged Hobbs reading just before engine start.

Rentals were all "wet" - fuel included in hourly price. Once I started the engine, I was burning the owners' or club's fuel, and eating into the time before next overhaul. Perfectly reasonable I should pay for those, even sitting still. Or taxiing.

On arrival, engine shutdown and master switch OFF were virtually simultaneous. Click-click, click-click, click-click. Logged Hobbs time.

On general principle - if you are tying up a rental/club aircraft that could be rented to/used by someone else, you pay for the time it is not available to other customers. Doesn't matter if you just go out and sit in a cold cockpit for an hour - that's an hour it could have been earning revenue from someone else. Dog-in-the-manger principle. If I flew an overnight, I had to pay a "day-minimum" equivalent to 4 hours engine/fuel time, per day the aircraft was not available to others - careful trip planning meant I always flew at least 4 hours per day average over the trip, so it never actually applied.

The fact one is only charged for the running time is itself a good deal.

[foxmoth]

Interesting, in the UK certainly the engine time is only counted from airbourne time, which can be significantly different from engine start to stop, especially if you only do short trips.

[pattern_is_full]

How is "airbourne time" measured and verified?

[dobbin1]

How is "airbourne time" measured and verified?

At my flight school, most of our aircraft have air switch activated Hobbs meters. Start and finish meter readings are recorded in the aircraft tech log and the calculated airbourn time subsequently transferred to the Engine, Prop and Airframe maintenance logs.

When we fly aircraft which are not fitted with the air switched Hobbs meter, we simply record take off and landing times in addition to the brakes off/brakes on times used for personal flight time logging. Both sets of times are entered in the tech log, but only the take off to landing times are used to calculate airbourn time for the maintenance logs.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

How is "airbourne time" measured and verified?
"Block to block time minus ten minutes." Over enough years and enough thousands of hours you can get a rule like that as accurate on average as you feel is necessary. If anyone really cares about the odd minute then ATC log the take-off and landing times.

[pattern_is_full]

Thank you all

- on the TANSTAAFL principle ("There ain't no such thing as a free lunch - or else the drinks in here would cost half as much") one presumes the clubs or renters simply charge a bit more per logged hour, to account for fuel use/engine wear expenses on the ground and not logged.

It's kinda like, who actually pays credit-card purchase fees - the shop, or you, via slightly higher overall shop prices?

If the OP's new club is double-dipping (charging the going rate per hour for "air time", AND charging it for ground time as well) - I understand some irritation.

[squidie]

I would be surprised if your total taxi time (remembering to include taxi in) is much less than 10 minutes, I can be pretty quick but getting airborne in under 5 mins needs starting pretty close to the runway threshold, and at most airfields that will mean a longer taxi in, most people do well to taxi out, do the checks and get in the air in under 10 mins, so adding 15 mins to airborne would not be unfair - though of course this time does not count towards engine hours!
foxmoth I don't really have issues with how they charge me, like I said sometimes it works in my favour.


Airborne time is T/O to Landing (take time on line up and take time on leaving the active).

[Brad2523]

my flying club do breaks on breaks off... I have always timed it after revieciving taxi information, just before I move off I note the time... Then I note the time after I have shut the engine down.

It's easier to use whole numbers so if I round the time up or down when I leave then I do the reverse when I shut down to even it all out.