Pilots to blame for Southwest 1455 incident

[newswatcher]

From LA Daily News:

"Reaffirming its earlier preliminary findings, the National Transportation Safety Board on Wednesday officially blamed excessive speed and a steep approach angle for the March 5, 2000, mishap that sent a Southwest Airlines jetliner skidding off the end of a rain-slick runway at Burbank Airport.

The board cited Capt. Howard Peterson, who piloted the Boeing 737- 300, and First Officer Jeffrey D. Erwin for coming in too fast and failing to fully engage their brakes upon landing.

It also cited Burbank's federal air traffic controllers for improperly positioning the jet on its approach, thereby giving Peterson no chance to abort his landing and circle around for another attempt.

"A stabilized approach is critical for a safe landing," NTSB Chairman Marion Blakey said in announcing the agency's final verdict on the mishap. "Everyone involved with the system has an important role to play. The controller must establish the aircraft correctly on approach and the flight crew must adhere to stabilized approach criteria."

The jetliner overran the end of Burbank Airport's Runway 8, collided with a metal blast fence and a perimeter wall and came to rest in a city street, Hollywood Way, a few yards from a gas station.

Of the 142 persons on board, two passengers sustained serious injuries and 42 others, including Peterson, were slightly hurt.

The final NTSB report, which largely mirrored an agency fact- finding study released last July, also recommended that all operators of Boeing 737-300 through 500 series jets replace the brackets on hatches that contain inflatable doorway escape slides. In the Burbank incident, the slide on the forward door prematurely inflated inside the aircraft, temporarily blocking the escape route and slowing evacuation of the plane.

Both Peterson and Erwin were fired in 2001 by Southwest, which cited the Burbank incident. The Southwest Airlines Pilot Association protested and Erwin was reinstated. Peterson elected to retire with full benefits rather than fight his dismissal."

[411A]

Well now...are we really surprised?
Have personally flown into BUR since 1966...a long time, and runway 07 (now 08) has ALWAYS been a "slight" problem...higher than normal landing minimums (due to the power lines that a Flying Tiger Connie found years ago), rather short, and the fence at the end has caught more that one Electra.
On speed, and touchdown at THE proper point...works every time...but some never learn.:(

[Max Angle]

411a

I really hate myself for rising to your bait, but it's a good thing your perfect isn't it

"some never learn", you arrogant little prat.

[Raw Data]

No- he's right.

All flight safety is predicated on following SOPs and using good judgement when SOPs don't cover a situation. If you deliberately make a high and fast approach, you have NO EXCUSE if it goes bad and you have an incident- particularly if you had the option to go-around.

Part of being a good pilot is knowing when you can get away with some "individual interpretation" of the SOPs. So, being fast at, say Paris is unlikely to cause you a problem, but being fast at, say London City, will result in tears.

Part of being a mature pilot is taking responsibility, in advance, for your actions- especially when the lives of others depend on it.

[arcniz]

In the command-oriented hierarchy of PPRUNE, one assumes that - by definition - the moderator is correct.

At the same time, 411a's calculated tactlessness has its own downsides, here and elsewhere.

Perhaps we could concur that he's 'right' procedurally AND nevertheless, still qualifies as an 'arrogant prat'.

(The best of both worlds.)

[Raw Data]

Bad assumption! I am but a lower-order moderator, fit only to moderate the company forum- unlike the exalted ones that moderate the "public" fora...;)

Therefore, no inference of correctness should be made, feel free to disagree.

411A is American, tactlessness comes with the territory ;)

[AtlPax]

Isn't this the incident where, after the plane finally came to rest, the CVR records a crewmember saying something like "well, there goes my career", or is that just a rumor?

[411A]

Southwest,

Yes indeed, very interesting about the maximum brakes business.
Most pilots never have the opportunity/need for maximum braking and to do so may indeed "feel strange"...as in, almost never used, except RTO...and most pilots don't have these either.
In 37 years of flying professionally, have only used MAX braking one time that I can recall offhand...at the old TPE airport 'round about 1978, shortish and very slippery in the rain, and the good 'ole Boeing 707 anti-skid saved my bacon...just.

[Kaptin M]

411A, I feel sure that most of us (fellow professionals) would welcome your presence considerably more if your comments didn't APPEAR to be frequently condescending, and occasionally self-righteous -for example, "Most pilots never have the opportunity/need for maximum braking and to do so may indeed "feel strange"...as in, almost never used, except RTO...and most pilots don't have these either" and "...but some never learn.:( ".

In fact, in TODAY'S (as in the at least the last 10 years) simulator training, RTO's are regular events - often with a failure of the auto-brakes so as to require manual input. Training - as with simulator integrity - HAS altered, for the better since your halcyon era.

Analyses of accident causes, followed by solutions of "what they should have done" statements, derived after weeks of discussion groups pouring over something that occurred within minutes (at best) is OBVIOUS to ALL- even aviation columnists and private pilots!
Note the statement quoted by Southwest reads, “Furthermore, had the accident flight crew applied maximum manual brakes immediately upon touchdown, the airplane would likely have stopped before impacting the blast fence, the Board found.”.

[Seriph]

What fragile egos you guys have. 411's comments really get you going even when quite reasonable. Tell us Kapt M, do pilots ever make mistakes or is it always the fault of 'the suits' 'beancounters' society or anyone else who doesn't walk on water.

[Airbubba]

This captain is not noted for good judgement. He crossed the picket line at Wien Air Alaska in 1977 and United in 1988. Other than that he's a great guy...

[Stan Woolley]

Seriph

If you think that pilots all believe they can 'walk on water' and never make mistakes, you must work with a sad bunch of people.

When we do make mistakes we certainly pay for them, unlike the others you mention.

411a does make valid points, but this '...some never learn' attitude is patronising and arrogant. He then goes on to confess that the '.....good 'ole Boeing 707 anti-skid saved my bacon...just.'

I would suggest that the 'grace of God' was the only difference on that day, but he has certainly not been humbled by the event.

While we're on the subject I agree that he is careful not to engage in personal insults - instead he insults whole groups of people - which is nice.:rolleyes:

[Joyce Tick]

Why is everyone so delicate and sensitive round here? ..big bunch of daisies the lot of you!

411A is forthright, direct and speaks sense - no need to pussyfoot around if you have something to say. Keep posting, 411A.

[ironbutt57]

Raw data you're a jerk......as usual...pilots fired, atc screw-up.."retrained" and keeps his job to do it again and again...operated many sectors there in heavy t.p.'s, and got the same treatment....complaints unheeded

[Rananim]

I too see no problem with 411's comments.I am glad they reinstated Erwin,and my deepest sympathies go to the skipper.
He,like a lot of us,probably thought he could have used skill to overcome a bad judgement.WE all do that from time to time I guess.He just caught out.Sad end to a career.

[Kaptin M]

Sorry to hear that, Airbubba - re "crossing the line". :(

You raise an interesting point, Seriph. Can "suits", "beanies", and other non-flight staff be causitive factors in accidents? This is a subject I had intended raising with my current employer, as I believe that EVERYONE who has contact with operating crew may be directly - or indirectly - implicated in some of the critical decision-making processes a crew is faced with on occasions.

Just as the "suits" and "beanies" are (directly) involved with the lives and futures of the employees of Enron, World com. and Xerox, pilots are often seen as being responsible for the reputation of the companies for whom they fly - when they make the WRONG decision.
The difference being a pilot's decision in such cases is almost always one made on the "spur of the moment", whereas the cases quoted above were apparently PRE-MEDITATED, and designed to gain the maximum financial benefit for the individual - at the expense of the majority!

[HotDog]

Kaptin M, I made a critical remark to one of your postings on a different subject, but your last paragraph here, is spot on. Well said.

[411A]

OTOH...the good Kaptin M is again....WRONG.
I wonder what his problem is with....on speed and at THE proper touchdown point.?
Does he NOT practice that very same technique with every landing...or is he one of those guys that floats half way down the runway?;)
When was the last time YOU used MAX braking, my good Kaptin M, Sir? Not in the simulator.....but, ah..on the runway?

[Seriph]

Wondered how long Kapt (lenin) M would take to bring Enron et al onto the scene. Proves everything of course, run of the runway and it's the suits fault, despite our hero making snap decisions, obviously not prepared to accept responsibility when he gets is wrong though.

[Kaptin M]

Where do you think I am wrong (again), 411? What is YOUR definition of "proper touchdown point", ? Please allow us all the benefit of your experience.
The last time I used max braking for real? About 4 months ago, (on an RTO in Nagoya). :)
So if it's a "competition" for recency, I'd say you run a very poor second with your 707 in TPE account. :(

Seriph, ENRON, WORLD COM and XEROX, were cited as the latest, recent EXAMPLES of the way in which "suits and beanies" (the words YOU chose) are able to have a disastrous effect on not only employees, but shareholders and other companies as well - yet NOT taking PERSONAL (and usually PROFESSIONAL) RESPONSIBILITY, as pilots are forced to do ANYTIME even a slight incident, such as that under discussion, occurs. Pilots do NOT have the same "soft" (gutless) choices that so many of the "suits and beanies" opt for when it is their turn to face the music!

Do other ground staff (attempt to) influence a pilot's decision? Sometimes - perhaps.

[thermostat]

First, is it at all possible for us as "Professional Pilots" to stop pissing on each other?? It's totally uncalled for and tends to degrade the the group.

The point I would like to make has to do with the part about air traffic control (ATS) not positioning the aircraft propperly. This seems to be the "IN" thing nowadays. They don't seem to know that an aircraft can only capture the glide slope from BELOW the slope. We are being vectored too high and too close to the airport and then when you are above the GS you get the clearance for the approach. On some types it is more difficult to capture from above, and this is NOT a "stabilized" approach.
Maybe someone from the ATS who has some experience could comment on this for me. I for one am not happy with this "cowboy" attitude from ATS.

Thanks, Thermostat.

[411A]

We've all done a few of those Kaptin M, and just as in the sim, you are (well some are anyway) spring loaded for the event.
But on landing, very few pilots EVER use maximum braking (and little training in the sim either)...end of a long day (perhaps after many sectors for the short haul guys)...just a tad fast, well past the optimum touchdown point, shortish runway...and you end up just like our Southwest friend...out in the middle of the street.
ATC is little help either, as mentioned above.

[Ignition Override]

Maybe lots of landings on short runways and a serious attempt to help the airline's schedule reliability led to complacency for the unfortunate SWA crew? I don't know, but it could tempt many of us to some degree, especially in good weather, pushing ourselves while fatigued.

Being able to barely keep one's job/career must be a very powerful lesson. Such a pilot might quickly become one of the safest pilots a company has ever seen.

In Bob Hoover's book, after his Twin Commander was mistakenly fueled with Jet A and he made a decent landing after dual engine failure, somebody commented on the certainty that the fueler would fired. Mr. Hoover quickly said something like, "No, let him keep his job, he will never make that mistake again". What a superb character.

[TowerDog]

Airbubba:

The guy was a scab?

Hmm, surprise to me.
Did not think Southwest hired scabs.


The overrun accident however goes with the scab background:
Lack of judgement.

(As for the UA strike, that was 1985, not 1988. ?)

411A:

Max braking: Been there, done that.
Landed many a DC-8 and B-747 on the downsloping runway in Bombay, during the monsoon season, at night, with the displaced threshold and at max landing weight or so.
It stirs up the adrenaline to feel them brake pedals pulsate under yer feet and feel the craft slide/roll at high speed towards the end.
The beer was however, good tasting an hour or so later, despite the source. (London Pilsner, Rot gut Bombay Smasher, etc.)

[Airbubba]

>>(As for the UA strike, that was 1985, not 1988. ?)

You're right, the 1988 date of hire for Howard B. Peterson III (dob 11/22/47) is his Southwest hire date. He is listed as the captain on SWA 1445 at BUR on the United "jumpseat protection list", hence I though the DOH was for United. He's certainly listed as crossing the Wien Air Alaska line.

>>Did not think Southwest hired scabs.

There are a handful on the list. Of course, all the Continental pilots with unfortunate dates of hire have Alpa pins now.

And there are a few in the APA on the list as well as you probably know.

[Raw Data]

ironbutt57

Yes, I suppose you must be living on Fantasy Island, or you would know that the pilot always has the right to refuse a clearance if he or she believes it is unsafe, or could lead to an unsafe situation.

Like it or not, for an aircraft in flight, the buck stops at the captain- the safety of the aircraft and its passengers is his responsibility, and his alone (or hers). That is why the Southwest skipper lost his job. That is the way the world is, like it or not.

Perhaps your inability to grasp this explains why you are looking for work.

[Mad Dog Free Flight]

Bottom line!

Start your decent 2 miles late, cross the numbers at over 200 knots, touchdown over half way down the runway, and not use maximum brakes all on a short runway at night. All this with the GPWS screeming at you. This does not sound like superior airmanship.

[ironbutt57]

don't where i'd be looking for work raw data...been here a decade+......unless you know something i don't...unless you've operated transport aircraft out of burbank, like I did for years, it's a hard situation to grasp....certainly not saying that a bad decision wasn't made, but the point of my post is that many aircraft have placed on a routine basis in the same position that the sw 737 was, many have landed a bit long on the binders, many more have gone around....something needs to be changed in the way traffic is handled arriving at burbank, and apparently to date it hasn't....many factors contribute to accidents as i'm sure you are aware of, but so far the atc/traffic factor hasn't been resolved.....just passed the burden on to flight crews....

[Raw Data]

ironbutt57

Ah good, you agree that a bad decision (or five) were made.

>> but the point of my post is that many aircraft have placed on a routine basis in the same position that the sw 737 was, many have landed a bit long on the binders, many more have gone around....something needs to be changed in the way traffic is handled arriving at burbank <<

Ok then.

Surely, knowing that ATC might place you in a compromising is all the more reason to exercise you right to not accept such a clearance. The ones you mention, that went around, obviously exercised GOOD judgement.

Maybe ATC at Burbank does need a good kick up the (insert naughty word here), but at the end of the day the captain is still responsible for the safety of the flight.

Over here in Europe, I fly to airports where they routinely lie about weather conditions or runway state- mostly for financial reasons. We have to filter the information we receive and make sound judgements that ensure the safety of our pax- in other words, we use airmanship.

I am sure that if enough flights go around at Burbank, the message will eventually be rammed home. Go-arounds cost money.

I think we basically agree, which makes me wonder why you felt it necessary to be quite so insulting in your post.

[Carruthers]

If you go off the end of the runway it can only be, in the absence of mechanical failure, the pilots fault. Full stop.

[ironbutt57]

lots of reasons.......pilot decisions a major contributor to most...wait till things pile up on you, then find yourself in the same spot......we all live in glass houses...careful when you throw rocks....:confused: :confused: "full stop" ???...good grief

[EGGW]

Having been on the FLT. Deck of Southwest 737's going into BUR a number of times prior to 11/09, i can see that its a difficult approach, especially on a dark and windy night.
Maybe there were other factors such as fatigue, etc, but the approach was quite obviously not stable, and should have been thrown away before getting near the runway. Shame as this 737 was an ex Britannia 737 that was the first big jet i ever flew back in 1990 :(
Does anyone know if it was rebuilt, or scrapped after the accident. I think i saw that the fuselage was broken infront of the wing, maybe someone knows more... bwhich would probably preclude a rebuild.

[Rananim]

Raw Data,
I see that you fly the 146.Hardly qualifies you to talk about an overrrun,does it now?

[Carruthers]

Come of it, there may be contributory factors but whose decision is it to put it down? Think Go Around not land.

[TR4A]

Does anyone know if it was rebuilt, or scrapped after the accident. I think i saw that the fuselage was broken infront of the wing, maybe someone knows more... bwhich would probably preclude a rebuild.

The aircraft was a loss. SWA bought the aircraft from the insurance company for parts. The nose section was cut off and I heard it was to be made into a CPT (cockpit procedures trainer).

[ironbutt57]

Oh we all know somebody named "charles" who did an overrun in a 146 don't we;) ;) carruthers....ur point is made....get a life...off of that cold miserable island where u live.....

[BOAC]

Rananim

" see that you fly the 146.Hardly qualifies you to talk about an overrrun,does it now"

A little harsh, I feel, on RD? After all, a limiting runway is a limiting runway whether you are in a supersonic fighter or a Tiger Moth.

(PS Flown both, before you 'pounce')

As Ib57 points out, HRH found Islay a little short (only at one end)

[Raw Data]

Rananim

>> see that you fly the 146.Hardly qualifies you to talk about an overrrun,does it now <<

That is an exceptionally stupid statement.

Yes, I fly a 146. I have spent the last two years flyng it into a 1200x30m airfield, using a 5.5 degree glideslope. This experience makes me exceptionally qualified to talk about over-runs, not to mention RTOs and the need to decide early if you need to go around. This particular approach requires special training and qualification before a pilot is permitted to attempt it. It is highly relevant to the Burbank incident.

We fly the 146 into a far more demanding environment than most 737s fly into, and still carry 100+ pax. Horses for courses, etc.

[acm]

146 are as good as any airplane in runway overrun. One in Belfast City and two in Turkey (Samsum ?) had suceed in doing that in the recent years.

[captchunder]

The report said about citing ATC for vectoring the aircraft to a final approach that left the pilots with no time to execute a missed approach (I'm paraphrasing). Now, I've never been vectored to a final approach at 50'.

If in doubt, throw it away.... Surely there must be a reason why he DIDN'T go around?

[Kaptin M]

Go-arounds can be executed even after touchdown, a PRIMARY factor being that reverse thrust hasn't been deployed.

The guy appears to have made a flawed decision - obviously not the first in his aviation career if he crossed a picket line! :mad:

Hardly worth trying to defend such people when THEY have apparent complete disregard for their piers!

[411A]

Well then Kaptin M, how 'bout all the good 'ole ALPA boys that have gone off the end?:rolleyes:

The devil made 'em do it, perhaps?:p :rolleyes:

[AA717driver]

Raw Data--Re:"...American...tactlessness comes with the territory."

Are you applying for citizenship?:p TC

[Jinx300]

ATC was not flying the airplane, the Captain was. He made a bad decision. I'm thinking SWA did not even have a definition of a stabilzed approach in their manuals before this incident. Do they have one now? Anyone know?

[AA SLF]

AA717driver -

I like your VERY TACTFUL response above.
:D :D :D

[Plane*jane]

Here we go again another damn good debating thread that 411a has managed to deteriorate into another "my pr@ck is bigger than yours"
And this guy is flying in my airspace. Yuk
So much for Cpt Prune's sticky

[AA717driver]

Jane--I personally have never entered into a 'prick size contest'.

I'd rather surprise them!:D :D :D TC

P.S.--Now that's tactless!:p

P.P.S.--I agree 411 is a pain.

[411A]

One wonders...
Which part of the facts of...."the Captain s@rewed up",
do not some of the posters here understand?

The aeroplane did not (by itself) overrun...and the ATC was a "known" problem...

so, whats the beef?

The Commander paid the ultimate price...and it should be NO other way....period.

[QuackDriver]

Shame about the comment WRT PPLs. I'm a PPL and have a fair idea about my flying skills, not as good as some, better than others. I've met some real good ATPLs and some ...... who could do better. Perhaps if I flew as many hours as the average atpl I'd be as good .... BUT I know I can always improve. Is that still the case after 10000+ hours?

[Carruthers]

Ironbutt, Charles has a capital C. As for living on a cold and miserable little island, maybe, but infinitely preferable to that neurotic continent of yours. But I still don’t see any explanation from you as to how an accident such as this can be anyone’s fault but the crews? KaptinM, you need help.

[Paterbrat]

Sheesh, JB's tame compared to this lot.

[old pick it her]

Airbubba and TowerDog


Reference to Howard Peterson and the Wien Air Alaska strike of 1977-1979, I saw reference, I am 99% certain, to another Wien Picket Line Crosser made on the America West pilot arrest thread; besides being a scab, this guy also did not exercise very good judgement: (he was) the former airline officer arrested (and reportedly still in jail) for smuggling drugs from Mexico by the DC 6 load!!!!

then again, what does one expect from those type of guys......

[ironbutt57]

Ah yes....the 3 amigos..think they're out now...charles is spelt with a small c as is carruthers, we all know kaptin m needs help, but why waste the effort...he is union-brainwashed to the point everything has been washed away.:( :( :D :p ;)