Minimum passenger age - children?

[sherwood16]

Hi,

Is there a minimum passenger age I can take under my UK PPL(A) SEP?

Thanks

[Heliplane]

Certainly hope not!

Regardless, my heir and spare both enjoy flying (seem to recall taking one up when he was 2 but I know of others who have taken their children up much younger) but I've gone to some lengths to get proper seats - Britax did a good seat that secured with just a lap belt but provided shoulder belts for the small occupant and, when they grow, booster seats work well too.

I've always tried to seat an adult next to a child in such a seat to ensure a quicker exit if necessary.

Most headsets will adjust to fit small children but you may have trouble with hearing protection for really small children - I didn't take mine up until I was comfortable that a headset would fit.

It has been great to share flying with my kids and I'd recommend doing so.

They can also reach the chocks more easily than me which saves me having to scramble under the wings before/after flying.

[sherwood16]

Great many thanks!

[hedgehopper]

My two girls were 8 and 3 (weeks)
when they first flew.

[Talkdownman]

Why on earth should there be? I certainly hope that there is not a maximum passenger age...

[tmmorris]

My son flies with me regularly and has done since he was two. You do occasionally come across some grumpy people who think you are in some way irresponsible for allowing children near aeroplanes but ignore them, just keep the kids safe and enjoy.

[300hrWannaB]

The only consideration is that of distraction. If you have a multi seat plane, then the small person's (other?) parent guardian can manage the little 'un. If you are in a 2 seater, clearly you have to be prepared to manage a young person that may be frightened, unsure of the angles/attitudes/g forces, or quite simply dislike the noise.

I've never had a puker in the plane. The nearest was when it was me, and I was the pilot. That was a turbulent ride. But you may have to factor in such considerations. Remember the golden rule.

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate

And don't be afraid to abort after one circuit, even if you planned a long trip.

[piperboy84]

I didn't let my kid fly with me until he was 16 and old enough to make his own decisions as an adult. I don't take kids up and politely explain to friends and families who ask me to take their kids for a flight that the cargo is just to precious, and it may may be best to wait for the kid to get to an age where they are able to make there own informed decisions about what hobbies and associated risk levels they are comfortable with.

Flying is my hobby, not a child's. Flying is not a team sport, flying as a private pilot in a non commercially regulated aircraft has a good degree of risk and is very unforgiving when things go wrong unlike a lot of other hobbies parents/adults can involve their minor children in.

I took my son camping, fishing, hiking, shooting, swimming cycling and dirt bike riding, but not flying.

Probably get slaughtered for my view on the matter but that's the way I roll. Each to their own !

[Wageslave]

Anyone who takes a baby in any aeroplane is, imo in gross dereliction of parental care as the poor mite has no way of understanding or dealing with the barotrauma that is almost certain to ensue and can cause irreperable damage to infant ears. This is why babies so often shriek and shriek and shriek in airliners esp on descent - they are being subjected to agonising ear pain. (as are the unfortunate and long-suffering pax around them)
The noise in a light aircraft must add to the questionability of this too.

[ShyTorque]

The minimum age is approximately minus nine months.

[fireflybob]

Anyone who takes a baby in any aeroplane is, imo in gross dereliction of parental care as the poor mite has no way of understanding or dealing with the barotrauma that is almost certain to ensue and can cause irreperable damage to infant ears. This is why babies so often shriek and shriek and shriek in airliners esp on descent - they are being subjected to agonising ear pain. (as are the unfortunate and long-suffering pax around them)
The noise in a light aircraft must add to the questionability of this too.

Rubbish! On most light a/c flights you don't go above 2,000 feet and as pilot you can control the rate of descent. Cabin altitudes in airlines are in the order of 6 to 7,000 feet.

We took our kids flying from infancy and they never shrieked on descent - quite the reverse in fact. Much also depends on emotional state of the parents which communicates to the children.

The noise issue (if a factor) can easily be dealt with using modern ear defenders.

When I see some of the comments here I wonder how our kids survived!

[tmmorris]

Also you should always give a baby something to drink during climb and descent. I'm guessing Wageslave doesn't have kids?..

[Camargue]

My son was 7. I felt that was an age where he would enjoy it and I could explain how things worked and that he would do as he was told. And for him the procedure of it is just as interesting as the flying.

But I do agree with Piper boy. 1st time I took the boy up I was more nervous than I have been at any time before and I certainly wouldn't take friends children. have yet to take my 6 year old daughter.

[BackPacker]

A few tips:

- Up to about eight years of age kids don't appreciate the uniqueness of flying. They'll not be impressed - it's just one of the million things that are trying to make an impression on them in this weird and wonderful adult world. So if you fly to get somewhere, then by all means take them. But if you fly just to have fun and enjoy the scenery, and hope the kids appreciate this too, then you may want to hold off 'till that age.

- From about ten years onwards you can explain a kid how an airplane flies, and a lot of these kids are wonderful at keeping heading and in some cases even altitude. So you can use them as your cruise autopilot, with the added benefit that the concentration required means they're not doing something else that may distract you. However, this only works if the kid can see the horizon all around. In most aircraft the coaming is too high to look over until they're about 1.60m in size - a height that's typically not reached until they're well into their puberty/growth spurt. So even kids that are way past the "booster seat" stage in cars, benefit greatly from a cushion or booster seat in an aircraft.

- Unless going somewhere, limit the flight duration initially to about 20-30 minutes. After this the novelty factor wears off, the kid gets bored and starts to distract you. And they start to look around or do other stuff that may induce nausea.

- Don't do this straight after obtaining your PPL. At the charity I volunteer for, we require a minimum of 150 hours PIC after license issue. This is so that you can fly the plane (+navigate, communicate) with maybe 10% of your mental capacity. The rest is needed to deal with passengers.

- Especially on the first flight, it is a good idea to have an adult (typically a parent) seated directly behind the kid. This gives the kid a secure feeling, and means you have an extra pair of hands on board to calm, or even restrain, the kid if something goes wrong.

- Skylight makes kids headsets. They're about 30% smaller than regular headsets. Decent quality, funky colours. And they will even fit most adults.
SkyLite SL-900C Children / Youth Aviation Headset (http://www.flyskylite.com/products/headset/sl900c/)
SkyLite SL-900MC Children / Youth Aviation MP3 Headset (http://www.flyskylite.com/products/headset/sl900mc/)
The -MC variant has MP3/music input.

[tmmorris]

+1 for the booster seat. My 12 year old still uses one in the PA28 so he can see over the coaming, even though he's long past needing one in the car.

We used to like the DR400 when the club had one, because the seat goes up when it goes forwards.

[Fly4Business]

Why should there be any minimum age? Enough babies are "airborn" and it is just a natural wonder. Yes, if they are very little, you have to place a caring person direct next to it and you should avoid rapid climb and descent if you find out the little one has a problem with it, but then - no problem.

My youngest passenger was 35 minutes old and we flew the little one born a bit too early out of the Canadian wilderness to the next doctor to let her check ok. Not really a problem, even with mountain flying and rapid descent for this one.

[Johnm]

Anyone who takes a baby in any aeroplane is, imo in gross dereliction of parental care as the poor mite has no way of understanding or dealing with the barotrauma that is almost certain to ensue and can cause irreperable damage to infant ears. This is why babies so often shriek and shriek and shriek in airliners esp on descent - they are being subjected to agonising ear pain. (as are the unfortunate and long-suffering pax around them)
The noise in a light aircraft must add to the questionability of this too.

Drivel, my grandson has been flying with me since he was 6 months old. He goes to sleep on take off and wakes up on landing, he does much the same in cars!

[Capt Kremmen]

piperboy84

I agree 100%. Very responsible !

[rnzoli]

On a related note: can we take a cat or a dog to fly with us?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

He goes to sleep on take off and wakes up on landing
And mine were still doing that when they were teenagers.


What kept one of them awake for a flight was being able to say to some girl "hey, you wanna fly to Brighton for lunch on Saturday?" - then he had someone more interesting than me to talk to. (Once she'd got over her initial disbelief that such a thing could really be on offer - her first reaction was that he must be winding her up.)

[Marchettiman]

Why look for rules when there is no need for them? Despite the best efforts of the bureaucrats the other side of the Channel you may, as PIC, fly any passenger as long as you take responsibility for their safety which is your duty under the ANO and our well established common law system.
I have flown my sons since they were babes in arms, which is why they all now have PPL's; our dog sat calmly through gentle aerobatics and when one of my sons won a goldfish in a plastic bag at a shooting stand at an airshow it too survived a few loops on the way home, kept swimming for several years once back on terra firma.

[swbok]

Hi,

Is there a minimum passenger age I can take under my UK PPL(A) SEP?

Thanks

No. Usual pax requirements 3ldg /90 days.

[Flying Lawyer]

MarchettimanWhy look for rules when there is no need for them?It's an unfortunate habit in this forum that I've commented upon from time to time over the years.


I thought immediately of your boys when this thread was started. :)
And then about going through Ray Hanna’s logbooks when preparing my eulogy of him for the Thanksgiving Service at RAF St Clement Danes.
I noticed a civvy entry for May 1st 1961: "Passengers: EH & MH" - His wife & their son Mark, who was then aged 18 months.


(Edit)

It's just occurred to me that was 10 years ago. Doesn't time fly!
If anyone is interested, this tribute thread covers everything from the announcement of his death to the Thanksgiving Service a few months later: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/200715-sqdn-ldr-ray-hanna-afc.html
Well worth reading if you haven't done so already. As well as moving tributes and interesting anecdotes, there are some wonderful photographs of 'the Master' in action.

[Fly4Business]

Why look for rules when there is no need for them?
It's an unfortunate habit in this forum that I've commented upon from time to time over the years.
An unfortunate habit not only in this forum, but a more widespread one. Last weekend I was flying to a little uncontrolled airfield in Central Europe and already on approaching heard "clear to taxi", "clear for take off", "request taxi", "ready for departure", "clear for take off" and was wondering whether they raised a CTR without notice. I already read before in the AIP on a strange setting with contact to Info before taxi, but Tower business to this extend, I really did not expect. When I chatted to the Info guy, he told me most of the pilots are now unable to do what they should do without telling them. So, we may need a minimum mandatory brain age for pilots ;-). Is this the future of flying, mandatory verbal remote control?

[Mike Flynn]

I took my children aged 8 months and 3 from the Michigan to Perth Australia over a nine month period and they remember very little but we had a great time and have some wonderful pictures. No more a big deal than taking them to school in the car and the risks that go with that.

Sadly the western world wants to wrap their offspring in cotton wool these days. In SE Asia kids ride small motorbikes to school from age 12 while in Canada a youngster can solo a Cessna 152 at 14 I believe?

[condor17]

No legal minimum that I'm aware of . Took our ' Boi ' in a C150 at 18mths . Pushed the mainwheel over his foot at 2 [ me more upset than him ] . He threw up regularly , and still does in SEPs . However he became an easyJet A319/320 co-pilot before his 21st , and loves it .
Labrador flying many years ago . Sat in the back of the C150 , his head on your shoulder ' monitoring ' .... '' Come on boys keep her on the C/L '' etc . Went to sleep at 2000' . Woke on the descent ... '' come on boys , left a bit , runways over there '' . Or '' Call that a good landing , I could do better '' .
Old Warden evening airshow ...'' Sorry sir , you'll have to leave dog in 't car '' .
'' Fraid he flew in , in the back of that C150 '' !
'' Oooh Er ! Enjoy the show ''

rgds condor .

[150 Driver]

Both daughters (then aged 6 and 8) were dead keen to go flying with me as soon as I'd got my PPL.

The elder landed a bit green and isn't massively keen, the younger will go every time she gets the chance.

But when the elder recently had a coastal erosion geography fieldwork project to do of the Norfolk coast she soon realised there would be bonus points on offer if she had some aerial photos to include . . . not so reluctant then.

I have wondered about dogs though, how do you protect their hearing from the noise in the cockpit ?

[300hrWannaB]

Ask the dog if it was noisy?

[tmmorris]

Pushed the mainwheel over his foot at 2 [ me more upset than him]

So glad it wasn't just me. Mine was 4. Broke two metatarsals, the conversation in A&E was interesting (tell me again, exactly how did it happen...)

[Mike Flynn]

Just gone back in my old log books and found a local newspaper story.

Two weeks old.

He is now nearly 30 and still OK:ok:

[squidie]

I’ve known a few people take kids up with them, even some as young as babies in baskets.

[Geordie_Expat]

I'm amazed no-one has mentioned the attached. If you have perhaps just returned from Mars and haven't seen it, then sit back and enjoy. Surely one of the most delightful videos ever. I never tire of seeing it.


pSWDW18ygaw

[Jetblu]

I would post mine, but they were stolen whilst I was in hospital.

I had some fabulous one's with my daughters in the Caribbean, island hopping.
Back here, I had a brilliant cockpit clip with middle daughter [4 then] in a C310 convinced that she had won a spot landing competition at North Weald.
She was close. Came 2nd :)

This is one of my favourites on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqiBcGziEUc

[para_trooper]

A friend wants to bring their two year old along for a flight in the 172. Does anyone have any experience? They've got a car seat which I'm assuming is just going to fit onto the back seat and strap in? What about a headset, will a normal club headset do the task? I'd rather say no and save the agro but it may not be too difficult, and it could be a good experience for all, well I am hoping... unless I have a screaming child for the duration in which case I'll be call for a straight in approach!

[Heliport]

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/578671-minimum-passenger-age.html

[Vitesse]

I recall my 2yo daughter came along on a pleasure flight in a pa28. 'Twas a crisp and still November afternoon from Plymouth eastwards over the South Hams.

She wore an adult sized headset and had been pretty well briefed. Some small puffy clouds provided a bit of interest but it wasn't long before the engine vibrations sent her to sleep.

Of course, it could easily have been screaming abdabs.

[para_trooper]

Thanks, I should have searched first I guess! Thanks to the other thread.

[tmmorris]

That young you definitely want an adult whose sole job is to look after the child. And a child headset if you can manage it, or some sort of pad to make sure the headset sits comfortably.

And if you can, an intercom that allows you to isolate yourself from the passengers.

[Dennis at Enstrom]

I routinely take my 2 and 3 year olds flying. A few things to consider (many of which have been discussed already):


- Don't just assume the carseat will buckle in. Airplane seatbelts tend to buckle towards the middle, while car seat belts buckle at the side. In the plane this results in the buckle being in the middle of the car seat, which just doesn't work. In my plane I tried a some of the shortening loops (often included with the car seat) to get the buckle to the side. They work ok, but still hard to get it tight. I sometimes double it up with a ratcheting cargo strap.

- Most youth headsets are the same as adult headsets, except with fun colors and maybe a shorter mic boom. For one flight the adult ones will be fine.


- Having an adult dedicated to the kid is a must. You need to concentrate on flying. Preferably that person would be seated next to the child. The most common issue I face is them removing the hearing protection, followed by bright sun/sunglasses.


- The pilot isolate switch on the audio panel is your friend. If you don't have one, be sure you can reach their mic jack in a hurry as they will inevitably start singing songs from Frozen at the top of their lungs right as ATC is issuing traffic instructions. Flipping the mic boom up doesn't work as they like to hear themselves through the headset and will quickly figure out how to pull it back down.


- Kids under 2 will fall asleep in 10 minutes. Kids over 2 will not. Typical car ride behaviors apply. If the child gets bored/thirsty/hungry after 5 minutes in the car, they will in the airplane as well.


- Asleep or not, I would keep the first flight short. There is nothing worse than being stuck in an airplane with a toddler that suddenly decides he doesn't want to be there.


- For the adults Jr's first airplane ride will be a special moment, complete with selfies, facebook posts, etc... For the kids, however, it is a slightly noisier car ride. I'm not saying don't do it, but realize it's for you, not for them. I'll admit that when my daughter started repeating all my radio calls "Twee ate charwie 'conto!" (Three eight Charlie is 5 miles from Oconto), it was the cutest thing ever. :O


Good luck with the flight. It will be hassle, but the story itself will be worth it.


DEM

[RatherBeFlying]

The young Master RBF lost his breakfast twice in Xwind landings, right at the flare.

Anybody can be sick, but the little ones don't manage sick bags:p

[tmmorris]

I'd forgotten singing through the headset. That takes me back! Son is now 12...

[150 Driver]

Commonsense and knowing the child is important. Mine know the rules and respect them - don't fiddle with anything unless I ask you to, if the radio starts talking, shut up, expect me to ignore you sometimes but always do what I say.

Come to think of it that applies to passengers generally.

For that reason, I've no problem with my children but wouldn't take my mother !

[rnzoli]

I'd forgotten singing through the headset. That takes me back! Son is now 12...
Ahhhhhh, I thought singing / humming during flight was a speciality of my daugter :)

[funfly]

I would caution anyone against flying with a pilot who has just passed his/her PPL, or even someone you don't know really well. Certainly be careful with kids.

[Hackett]

The warrior I fly has a little switch which cuts off the front to rear intercom, I take my kids up very often and as we rejoin the circuit I can simply flick the switch and they can talk merrily to each other but I can't hear them and I can get on with the circuit uninterrupted. I've taken mates up with their kids too, flying is there to be shared I think.