Wg Cdr Arthur Gill, OBE, DFC [Archive]

Danny42C

3rd May 2016, 09:39

Chris Scott and MPN11,

Have now had the chance to read the Telegraph Obituary carefully, and it takes nothing away from the reputation of a great and gallant gentleman to say that his Obituarist has, shall we say, "gone over the top" more than somewhat.

First, a minor detail: "The Vengeance crews placed their two 500lb bombs with great accuracy, sometimes only 100 yards ahead of Allied Troops". All the Vengeance flown on operational sorties carried 2x500 GP internally and 2x250 GP under the wings. There was no reason for them to carry less, and they could not carry more. The "100 Yards" is right. And what's this "near vertical dive" ? They were designed to dive vertically, and they were dived vertically.

The general impression left on the reader is that 84 Sqdn were the "only show (with Vengeances) in town". It is reminiscent of Errol Flynn's "Objective Burma", where the (whole) part played by British, Indian and Gurkha troops is completely ignored, and you come way thinking that Flynn reconquered Burma all by himself (Google > Objective Burma 1945 > Objective, Burma! – liberating cinema from the truth | Film ...News, sport and opinion from the Guardian's US edition | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com) › Arts › Movies › South and Central Asia).

Four RAF Squadrons (45, 82, 84, and 110) and two IAF (7 and 8) operated the Vengeance in Burma. All were taken off "ops" at the onset of the '44 Monsoon (Why ? - but that is another story).

45, 82 and 110 started in spring '43, did a bit before the monsoon, started again in October and carried on till the (premature !) end at the onset of the '44 monsoon. 84 arrived on the scene only on 16.2.44. and operated to 16.7.44. (D.Tel). Five months, true - but as the last two were monsoon months, only three in fact (you cannot dive-bomb through cloud - the dog must see the rabbit !) We (110 and 8 IAF), who had "borne the heat and burden of the day" feel a bit miffed.

"Formations of 14 and 24" are pure moonshine. The most I ever heard of was 12 - and I only flew in one of those in the first of my 52 sorties and never again. The reason is simple: the 'clear and present' danger of a formation being intercepted by "Oscars" on its way to the target. The (mistaken, IMHO) policy was to stand and fight. As our gunners (and some of our back-seaters were navs who'd never even touched a Browning) would be most unlikely to hit anything except their own tails (for there was nothing to stop that happening), our only defence lay in vigorous avoiding action. One VV is about as nimble as an arthritic tortoise, a box of six in formation much less so. Anything more - forget it. Fresh in the mind was the night, a year before, when a 'vic' of three "Bettys" was approaching Calcutta - with a F/Sgt Pring creeping stealthily up the rear in a Beau. As the "Bettys" gallantly stuck together when he opened fire (instead of scattering), he bagged the lot in 30 seconds. Made us think. Thank God it never occurred to the Jap High Command to set the Oscars on us (the 'Why Not ?" is another of the unsolved mysteries of the War).

Nice pic of the huge VV cockpit. At least it looks like one. And yet, and yet... The seat back looks funny. Why is he wearing a leather helmet, and not 'cloth, tropical' ? What are those railings doing behind ? (never remember anything like that anywhere in India). Perhaps, it's just me.

DFC ? - Yes, certainly, and I'm sure he earned it - but not in a VV ! (you could die of old age in one of those).

Could go on for miles, but much too long already. Long session at dentist this afternoon :( - wish me luck !

Danny.

Chris Scott

3rd May 2016, 10:09

How do you do, Danny 42C,

Thanks for that fascinating insight. Had no idea, on casually posting that link, that the obit. would be subjected to such expert scrutiny.

Quote:
'...it takes nothing away from the reputation of a great and gallant gentleman to say that his Obituarist has, shall we say, "gone over the top" more than somewhat.'

Must admit to having wondered on seeing reference to the 'supersonic' Hunter...

CS

Danny42C

3rd May 2016, 10:16

MPN11,
What's the collective noun for a gathering of Air Traffickers? A 'Prevent'?
A Perplexity ?; A Bafflement ?; A Despair ?

Danny.

Wander00

3rd May 2016, 10:20

A "Local".......................

Danny42C

3rd May 2016, 10:23

"A Tea Ceremony".........

Wander00

3rd May 2016, 11:29

A (cigarette) "smokescreen".............................

Wander00

3rd May 2016, 11:30

A "letdown".............

oxenos

3rd May 2016, 11:38

A de-confliction, shurley?

MPN11

3rd May 2016, 11:50

Thanks, oxenos ... although I rather like the unkind "Letdown" from Wander00

Danny42C ... I can't relate to your offering, as I was never perplexed, baffled, or despairing. But then I was VERY good ;)

Wander00

3rd May 2016, 12:39

Not meant unkindly, very tongue in check. A controller probably saved my life many years ago

MPN11

3rd May 2016, 14:38

Not meant unkindly, very tongue in check. A controller probably saved my life many years agoTaken in the intended spirit, I assure you. We Traffickers are sometimes maligned, but we do have our uses occasionally!

Anyway ... Arthur Gill

Danny42C

3rd May 2016, 18:43

MPN11,
...... I can't relate to your offering, as I was never perplexed, baffled, or despairing...
......Which shows you didn't fully appreciate the gravity of the situation !

Danny.

MPN11

3rd May 2016, 18:48

:) :) :) :)

ValMORNA

3rd May 2016, 20:00

I believe Arthur Gill's DFC may have had something to do with a PR Spitfire but have no details.

Tankertrashnav

4th May 2016, 09:21

You wait ages for a bus then two come along at once!

I had no knowledge whatsoever about the Vultee Vengeance until I stumbled on Danny's fascinating account of his time on them a while back. I was at a small squadron reunion of contemporaries of mine last month and I asked if any of them knew that the RAF had dive bombers in WW2, and none did (they know quite a bit about the Vultee Vengeance now!). Back to the obit, 100 is a great age, and what a way to go - just a few hours after your birthday party!

Small quibble about the thread title - that should be Wing Commander Arthur Gill, OBE, DFC. Orders take precedence over decorations, with the exception of the Victoria Cross which invariably precedes all other awards.

Danny42C

4th May 2016, 09:41

ValMORNA,

Very probably. The PRs earned their gongs. Adrian Warburton was the RAF's most decorated one (played by Alec Guinness in "Malta Story"), and there have been good Posts from a Colonel Bayles (?) of the USAF, who also flew PR Spitfires, but I've forgotten the references.

Danny.

Chris Scott

4th May 2016, 09:46

Quote:
"Small quibble about the thread title - that should be Wing Commander Arthur Gill, OBE, DFC. Orders take precedence over decorations, with the exception of the Victoria Cross which invariably precedes all other awards."

Thanks for that, T-TN! Must admit I did wonder which was the correct way round. Is there also a protocol on when to abbreviate the rank?

CS

Danny42C

4th May 2016, 09:49

Tankertrashnav,

Thank you for spreading the Vengeance story - it did not deserve to die "unhonoured and unsung"
...with the exception of the Victoria Cross which invariably precedes all other awards...
And quite right, too !

Danny.

Tankertrashnav

4th May 2016, 17:24

Is there also a protocol on when to abbreviate the rank?

Hmmm - not sure about that one.

TTN (Flt Lt Ret'd) ;)

SirPeterHardingsLovechild

4th May 2016, 22:50

ValMORNA
I believe Arthur Gill's DFC may have had something to do with a PR Spitfire but have no details.

I heard that he was on a recce sortie, came across an enemy aircraft and shot it down.

Danny42C

5th May 2016, 11:00

SirPeterHardingsLovechild (your #26),
...ValMORNA
Quote:
...I believe Arthur Gill's DFC may have had something to do with a PR Spitfire but have no details. I heard that he was on a recce sortie, came across an enemy aircraft and shot it down...
Always believed myself that all PR Spitfires flew unarmed (to save space and weight for extra fuel). Chap's mixing him up with Warburton (in a Maryland [?] who did shoot down an enemy - or one of his gunners did), on a PR trip, I thought.

But it ain't as simple as that (it never is !) Googled (and was soon in deep over my head).

The following list of quotes is not exhaustive:

RAF BBMF - Reconnaissance Spitfire and Ray Holmes
[QUOTE]...The Spitfire PR Mk XIX was completely unarmed, carrying additional fuel in place of the guns of the Spitfire PR XIX on the ground during wartime fighter versions giving it an operational range of 1,500 miles...
RAF Reconnaissance Aircraft - Airrecce
...The PR Mk ID (PR Mk IV) was produced as a super long range version, both wing leading edges were fitted with 66 gallon fuel tanks and the total fuel load including the 30 gallons behind the pilot was 218 gallons. Nicknamed 'The Bowser', it had a range of 1,750 miles.

The PR Mk IG (PR MK VII) carried the standard machine guns of the Mk Ia.....fitted with only a fuel tank behind the pilot, it was limited by its range.

The PR Mk XI was produced in greater numbers than any other PR variant, with over 470 produced in total. It was based on the Mk IX fuselage, but with the extra fuel tanks of the standard PR variants as well as wing mounted tanks. It entered service in the summer of 1943.

The PR Mk XIII was a low level reconnaissance fighter, converted from old Mk I, Mk V and PR Mk VII. It carried four machine guns for defensive armament, which somewhat limited its range. It went into service in 1943

A number of Spitfire fighter aircraft were fitted with cameras, one version being the FR Mk XIV. It carried two F24 cameras mounted vertically in the rear fuselage and another F24 oblique camera which could be mounted either side of the aircraft aft of the cockpit.
The armament for this version was two 20mm cannons and four .303 machines-gun in the outer bays...
Supermarine Spitfire operational history - Wikipedia, the free ...
... For example, the Spitfire was a pioneer in the role of the unarmed, photo reconnaissance (P.R.) aircraft that relied on high speed and high altitude to avoid detection and attack.[5]

The PR Mk XI was the first version of the Spitfire to be built specifically as a photoreconnaissance (PR) aircraft and started replacing all of the earlier conversions of Mk Is, IIs and Vs from mid-1943...
So yer pays yer penny and yer takes yer choice !

Danny.

PS: For a stirring tale of "Un PR Pilote malgré lui" (sorry, Molière !) try my p.135 #2684 on "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII).

teeteringhead

5th May 2016, 12:38

It looks as if Gill's DFC was for his time on 84.

He was in command - as an Acting Sqn Ldr - from October '42 to September '44.

His DFC was Gazetted - still as an A/Sqn Ldr RAFVR - in November '44, in the same list as another A/Sqn Ldr RAFVR - one Neil Cameron of 258 Sqn (Spitfires at the time I think)

Like most wartime DFCs, there is no further detail published in the Gazette, but - given the timing - it would seem highly likely to refer to his 84 Sqn time. Indeed, the Gazette entry refers to him as 84 Sqn, although he handed over command - to one G R Plumb - in September '44. Did they give DFCs as end of tour BZs as they now do with OBEs?

Still looking, but one would need to go to TNA for more details methinks.

And I must - as a ukulele player - add my favourite piece of Arthur Gill trivia. In the 1938 George Formby film "It's in the Air", Gill was "stunt double" for Formby in the flying sequences..........

SirPeterHardingsLovechild

5th May 2016, 18:52

Hello ValMORNA, Danny42C, teeteringhead

I merely expanded a little bit on ValMORNA's post. I never said that he got the DFC for it. ValMORNA said he may...

Most of my hearsay (albeit from the horse's mouth) were alcohol fuelled nights down Chris Kebab during the 84 Sqn 75th Anniversary visit by the Association at Akrotiri.

Arthur Gill was present, and also a Jap POW survivor, (I think his name was Sam)

Come to think of it, my info isn't even "horse's mouth" and more likely to be from any random old codger at the table.

So here's my other 3rd hand hearsay snippet:-
The fabled escape from Java to Australia, was reported as the CO and 11 crew finding a lifeboat and sailing for 44 days.
The version that I heard was that 2 boats were found. The ground crew had one, and the aircrew had the other. The aircrew quickly badly damaged their boat, so they turfed the ground crew out of theirs and took it. The ground crew were left to their fate.

Danny42C

5th May 2016, 21:46

teeteringhead (your #28),

You've really got me foxed ! The D.Tel is quite specific:
..."The Squadron flew its first operation on February 16, 1944, when Gill led 14 of his aircraft to attack Japanese positions in the Arakan...On July 15 the Squadron flew its last sortie, when Gill led 12 aircraft in an attack on an ammunition dump at Le-u...
AFAIK, the Vengeance squadrons in India never operated anywhere except from the Arakan and Assam.

8 (IAF) was in the Arakan from 12 December, 1943 onward, and I can only assume that 84 (RAF) joined us there (on one or another of a score of "kutcha" strips which we were constantly moving between), but I have no knowledge of their arrival or whereabouts (as I was 'hors de combat' myself from 24 February 1944 until 12 July, when I had a couple of "refresher" flights (still in Arakan). I would guess that the monsoon would have broken certainly by the end of May. This would have put a stop to any dive bombing until September at the very earliest.

So what about "On July 15 the Squadron flew its last sortie, when Gill led 12 aircraft in an attack on an ammunition dump at Le-u" ? For a start, I don't believe the '12' (everybody was using box-of-six all the time by then). Perhaps he led two separate boxes (as was done on my first 'op', six from 82 and six from 110).

Then how would a VV get from the Arakan (all the strips were close to the coast), and I have used Cox's Bazar (very little more West than any Arakan strip) as one leg to get to Hopin (which is near Le-u) as the other to get a distance of 378 miles....Impossible - we haven't the range ! And what about the monsoon ?

It's quite beyond me ! And it begs the question: what were 84 doing with their VVS before February, 1944 (having come out at the end of 1942, like all the other ex-Blenheim squadrons ?) This we do know (Peter C. Smith: "Vengeance"): anti-submarine patrols, from Ceylon and the Madras area.

As for his DFC, whatever he got it for, it wouldn't have been in a Vengeance. PR ? - very likely. Your:
...Did they give DFCs as end of tour BZs as they now do with OBEs?...
I believe many of the Bomber Command DFCs/DFMs were "survivor's awards" after a full 'tour' of ops. And richly deserved, too, IMHO !

Danny.

Danny42C

6th May 2016, 09:53

SirPeterHardingsLovechild (your #29),
... so they turfed the ground crew out of theirs and took it. The ground crew were left to their fate...
I do not believe this for one moment, and I hope nobody else will.
...and more likely to be from any random old codger at the table...
Some old codgers are not what they purport to be. Walter Mittys come in all ages. We've had one or two on here.

Danny.

ValMORNA

6th May 2016, 21:14

The definitive answer? According to the 84 Squadron History 'Scorpions Sting', their Vengeances were stationed at Kumbhirgram in 1944. They also had a Spitfire Vc MA290 which they named 'The Looker'. This was used for weather reconnaissance after which attacks could be brought up if conditions were right. On one mission Sqn. Ldr. Gill was returning from a recce and saw two Japanese Ki-43 'Oscar' aircraft flying opposite him and overhead. He flew into cloud, turned and sighted one enemy aircraft ahead, closed to 100-200 yards and shot it down with 20mm cannon fire. AOC 221 Group was displeased as he had gone beyond the territorial area for weather recce and threatened to take the Spitfire away if he did it again.

Danny42C

6th May 2016, 22:24

ValMORNA,

I left Khumbirgram in mid-November '43, and at that time we only had 45 Sqdn. with us there. It seems that 84 must have come in after I left. But the D.Tel says that they commenced operations on 16 February in the Arakan.

Khumbirgram is in Assam, about 200 miles North of the Arakan.

????

Danny.

ValMORNA

7th May 2016, 21:09

Danny,

A further quote; 'On 11th February 1944, No.84 Squadron arrived at Kumbhirgam in Assam and joined No. 168 wing. The first operational mission took place on 16th February when 14 Vengeances dive-bombed Japanese positions in Burma.'

(Continuing) 'By careful attention to engine handling during the climb over the mountains en route to the target and during the cruise at 10,000-12,000feet 84 squadron were able to accept targets deep into Burma almost half as far as any of the other Vengeance squadrons.'

Does this explanation help?

Danny42C

8th May 2016, 09:19

ValMORNA,

Not much ! 168 Wing is right (Wg.Cdr. Chater, I think). They were in Khumbirgram all right, the D.Tel. has it wrong.
...(Continuing) 'By careful attention to engine handling during the climb over the mountains en route to the target and during the cruise at 10,000-12,000feet 84 squadron were able to accept targets deep into Burma almost half as far as any of the other Vengeance squadrons...
What a load of bovine droppings ! (where did that come from ?)

Somewhere I have recounted how 110's Engineer Officer (name forgotten) offered a prize of a bottle of (Welfare supplies) Scotch to the first pilot to do an 'op' on less than 60 (US) galls/hr. It was won in a week. (His lads then spent the next two weeks changing burnt-out exhaust valves).

A 'light' VV will cruise at 150 mph on 3 ampg. Full bomb and ammo load and in formation, lucky to get 2. You have 220 (US) gallons (and no room for any more). Do the sum: 400 is the max comfortable range, a radius of 200.
...84 squadron were able to accept targets deep into Burma almost half as far as any of the other Vengeance squadrons...
So these people arrive at the very end, spend three months at it before the '44 monsoon, and show the other poor benighted squadrons (who'd been doing it since early '43) how to do it ?

Bah, Humbug ! :mad:

A VV was not supposed to go after targets "deep into Burma" (Liberators and the like do that). Its business is Army Close Support - 50 miles from its strip to the Jap bunker which the Army ask us to dig out.

Will have a good long read of "Vengeance" (Peter C. Smith), to see if I can add anything.

Danny.

Union Jack

8th May 2016, 13:06

The following programme at 8 pm this evening BBC Two - Burma's Secret Jungle War with Joe Simpson, Episode 1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07bkf4k) may be of interest relative to recent posts, given that my geography is not as good as Danny's....:ok:

Jack

Danny42C

8th May 2016, 13:44

Well spotted, Jack. Am all agog ! (84 Sqdn make much play with their support for Wingate and his Chindits in the early days; it would be nice to know what they actually did), while we were merely helping out the common or garden troops of Slim's 14th Army in the Arakan against Miyawaki and Koga's armies.

Don't suppose I will end much wiser.

Danny.

MPN11

8th May 2016, 16:24

Thanks for the tip ... OH had spotted it too. Whether it's enlightening, or just a personal journey, we will discover later!

MPN11

8th May 2016, 19:04

Oh, good, it has subtitles ... now looking out for young Danny in his VV :)

NigG

8th May 2016, 19:49

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture313-sqn-ldr-arthur-gill-vultee-vengeance-1944-kumbhirgram-84-squadron-base-operations-support-burma-campaign.jpg

I'm neither a pilot, nor an ex-member of 84 Squadron, but feel bound to make a contribution to the thread... as Arthur Gill's son.

On his behalf, many thanks, everybody, for the RIPs and interest in his story. Were he alive, I know he'd be making responses to everyone's comments, so I'll do my best on his behalf. I have written up his life story, for the family, so I'm reasonably knowledgeable. I don't know who wrote the Telegraph obituary, but there are a few dodgy bits in it... though putting obituaries together must be quite tricky.

Danny42C

Fantastic to 'meet' an ex-Vultee Vengeance (VV) aircrew member! WOW! I note you had left the battle before 84 Sqn arrived, so I appreciate that your knowledge isn't 100%... and there might be just a touch of 'inter-squadron rivalry' in what you wrote!! Haha!

My father reckoned, as you do, that the VV dived vertically. However some pilots thought it was just off the vertical, so there's different opinions about it. I gather it definitely felt like vertical (YIKES!)

Yes, 84 was one of six VV squadrons over Burma... the obituary was misleading by its omission. Regarding the monsoon, you say 84 effectively operated for 3 of the 5 months it was in theatre, because the monsoon would have prevented the squadron operating. In fact, they did continue to operate after the other VV squadrons had been withdrawn. The vertical dive started at about 12000', the aircraft finishing at maybe 200', and the pilot had to aim at the target, so low cloud made it unworkable. However, 84 developed a low level dive, which was less accurate, but still pretty effective. On top of this, Arthur's navigator, Jimmy Hawke, was a star performer (and won the DFC for it), so the squadron would invariably find it's target, unless the cloud was at ground level. So, 84 stuck at it, operationally, and picked up a lot of praise from ground commanders throughout it's 5 months, despite the monsoon.

You question why the VV didn't have more problems with Oscar fighters. In fact, the Allies had nine times the number of squadrons as the Japs, over Burma, in support of the '44/'45 offensive ... definite air superiority! Squadrons of Spits and Hurricanes were doing an excellent job of knocking down enemy aircraft, while bombing operations were targeting their airfields and the supply chain. However the VV (like the German Stuka) was extremely vulnerable to fighters. But despite this, they rarely flew with fighter cover. So if enemy aircraft were sighted in the target area, the mission would be delayed until it was 'safer' to operate.

I think 84 usually operated as a squadron of 12 aircraft, but they had more on strength, so 14 might have been possible on occasion. ( I don't have my father's log book to hand, so can't confirm this). He did, however, lead a Wing of 2 or 3 squadrons for 'maximum effort targets'. This was because his navigator was so dependable, despite the target often being in featureless jungle-clad hills.

The photo in the obituary does show Arthur in a VV mark II. The 'rails' you couldn't identify are in fact poles, supporting a camouflaged awning, under which the aircraft were serviced.

He did get his DFC for his leadership over Burma, of 84 Squadron and the Wing ops. The citation mentions the support of the Chindits and the 14th Army (Kohima and Imphal crises included). He led over 90 operations and 1500 (individual aircraft) sorties. Monsoon difficulties and lack of fighter cover was also mentioned, plus commendations from Army units.

Later on, you question the length of flights. 84 were specifically tasked to support the Chindits (900 soldiers conducting fighting patrols deep behind enemy lines, harassing and cutting communications while the Slim's 14th Army was invading from the North). This required flights of up to 3 hours, unlike the close-range ops in support of the main offensive. So careful fuel management was needed... low speed and gentle take-off. However, Arthur regretted that he was unable to give the Chindits as much support as he had hoped, because the demand from the 14th Army was so great... sometimes 3 ops a day.

You also doubted that the VV would be used for long distance support of the Chindits, suggesting that the Liberators would be doing such work. But in fact 84 had trained with the Chindits in Gwalior, so they had a special relationship with them. Also, as you acknowledged, the VV was accurate enough to attack targets close to friendly troops, unlike Liberators. Furthermore, it required just 3 aircraft to take out targets like a bridge... very effective use of resources.

There's plenty about this in 'Vengenance The Vultee Vengeance dive bomber' by Peter C Smith'. More too in the 84 Sqn history Scorpion's Sting by Don Neate'. (the former being written professionally).

You might also be amused to see the squadron in 1943. When the squadron was being reformed by my father at Vizapatam (following the loss of the squadron in the Far East), a film unit turned up and took some footage. Youtube.com: search World at War, episode 14, It's a lovely day tomorrow' At 25.51 ground crew wheel a VV, and at 26.20 Arthur (definitely!) taxies a VV past the camera. There's also shots of the camp... all in monsoon downpour! (Unrelated, there's good footage of Hurribombers in action at 45.10).

ValMORNA

Thanks for your various quotes from Scorpion's Sting... including the bit about Arthur bagging an Oscar and getting a telling-off for it!

Yes, 84 was going to go to the Arakan, but the airfield was found to be unusable due to flooding. They were then sent down to Ceylon (Sri Lanka), as there were intelligence reports of a pending Jap naval attack. They used the time practicing bombing techniques on ships and rock islands. After the threat diminished, they went to Ranchi and Arthur met with the AOC Pierce, Mountbatten, Wingate and Slim. He explained what the VV could do to a conference of 400 Army commanders, demonstrated the precision destruction of a bunker position, constructed by the Army. He consented to train with Wingate's Chindits, using smoke mortar bombs to triangulate and thus identify targets on the ground. After that, they moved to Khumbirgram in Assam, to join other VV squadrons in their deadly and vital work at the Front. To quote General Slim: 'The men of the 14th Army would have been doomed were it not for the men of the Air Force'. Poised to invade Burma, the 14th Army were shocked to have the Japanese army sweep through them as they began their own invasion of India! A desperate fight unfolded, Kohima and Imphal being cut-off by the Japs. The VV squadrons performed a vital role in relieving the 14th Army and destroying impregnable Jap bunker positions as the Army moved forward.

Teeteringhead

Arthur said he was stunt double for the film 'In the Air'. The original flying was done by one of the ex-RAF flying instructors at Hanworth, where Arthur trained to be a pilot in '37-'39, as a member of the RAF(VR). However the film crew needed some retakes and Arthur was asked to fly them. Whether any of his flying ended up in the film is uncertain. The flying is pretty impressive (I believe), being low level. Arthur had completed Elementary but not Service flying at that time... so one might wonder if he would have been good enough... though he was rated 'a natural' and was graded 'above average'. Judge for yourself (I'd be interested in a pilot's opinion). Youtube.com, search It's in the Air George Formby. Flying begins at Part7, 6.06 and continues into Part 8. Some of it is a model in front of a back projection screen. The song at the end is fun! The hanger area, plus the Blackburn B2 training aircraft and Hawker Harts were well known to Arthur.

Sir Peter

Your mischievous 'hearsay snippet' (!) about 84 Squadron's commander Wg Cdr John Jeudwine is decidedly dodgy!! He made a brave and remarkable six week escape from Java to Australia with 12 squadron personnel in a lifeboat under sail. I haven't heard about 'aircrew taking the ground crew's boat', but I suspect this down-plays the seriousness of the undertaking. Jeudwine hand-picked his crew for the perilous venture. At one point a Jap submarine surfaced close by and trained its guns on them.. the commander decided to spare them, greatly to his credit. They ran short of rations, coped with the baking sun and storms. Jeudwine did the navigation and kept morale up. The idea that the ground crew were left behind to fend for themselves is a grave insult. The plan from the start was to send a sub to pick them up. However when it finally arrived, there was no sign of them. They had by then been captured, of course. Jeudwine was a remarkable man... quiet but a true leader. His story is told in Global Warrior, Lacey-Johnson, ISBN 0-9536418-0-5. He is one of many outstanding Englishmen who gave their lives in the service of their country. (But I appreciate you were having a bit of mischievous fun, rather than genuinely insulting anyone!!)

In Conclusion....

My father has been called 'The RAF's foremost dive bomber pilot'. The claim has all the hallmarks of 'media hype'. But maybe there is something in it... if one defines it more precisely as 'foremost vertical dive bomber pilot'. He refined VV bombing technique in close air support and wrote an influential document on it, and on the training of VV pilots. This was sent out to all VV squadrons in '43. On the squadron, his flying skill was highly respected (graded 'exceptional'). He did an excellent job in Burma and would have got a DSO if General Slim's recommendation had been consented to by the RAF's Sir Keith Park. The Squadron kept operating in support of ground forces after the monsoon made things difficult. So, even if the claim is over-blown... I'm not just a little proud of him!

Nigel

ValMORNA

8th May 2016, 20:09

Danny,

My last word on the subject (Promise!) . . . .

The book 'Scorpions Sting: The story of No.84 Squadron Royal Air Force' by Don Neate is available on the South American River site.
[/URL]
[URL="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scorpions-Sting-Story-No-84-Squadron/dp/085130222X/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1462737647&sr=1-11&keywords=Scorpions+Sting"]

(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scorpions-Sting-Story-No-84-Squadron/dp/085130222X/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1462737647&sr=1-11&keywords=Scorpions+Sting)

Flying Lawyer

8th May 2016, 23:56

Nigel

A fascinating post. Thank you, and my condolences to you and your family.

I don't know who wrote the Telegraph obituary

Almost certainly Air Cdre Graham Pitchfork.
He has written several aviation history books and has been the Telegraph's aviation obituary writer for many years.

Union Jack

9th May 2016, 14:01

NigG

9th May 2016, 19:06

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture342-arthur-his-nineties-grandson.jpg

Thanks FL :) Yes it's been an interesting experience to lose my father. It's only when you irrevocably lose someone that you discover how valuable they are. It's all too easy to take people for granted when they're around. On the other hand my father ticked-off 100 years, so one can hardly complain... and ill-health was demoralising him... he said he was ready to check-out.

Whoever wrote the obituary, it was very decent of him/her. A lot of work and probably little in the way of 'thanks'.

NigG

9th May 2016, 19:19

Hear! Hear! What a splendid first post, and very glad that someone apparently alerted you to this very interesting thread - let's hope that there will be many more posts, especially once that logbook is to hand.

You have every right to be more than a "little proud" of your father.:ok:

Jack
Thanks UJ. Oh well.. the log book! Yes there's a few stories to pass on. Arthur had 17 emergency landings. The worst was perhaps having the engine of a Vampire cut out on him when he was CO of 21 MU at Aldergrove (now Belfast Airport). He just made it back to the Airfield, belly-landed, slewed across a road and off the perimeter, finishing through a hedge. One written-off aircraft and one casualty... an unfortunate chicken!

I think he ate it.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture344-post-war-flying-included-vampire.jpg

SirPeterHardingsLovechild

10th May 2016, 11:41

Hi Nigel

Firstly let me apologise for the Escape from Java story ending up on your father's condolences thread.

I went over to the 84 Sqn FB page and managed to upset your sister as well.

Your Dad was hero worshipped and greatly respected by all sqn members past and present, and we hope to see more stories from you.

But we are post-Jimmy Saville now, and blanking things out only leads to further myths & misunderstandings. So with some help I have almost got to the bottom of it.

Having had two other sqn veterans (who I have never met) agree about the story, I am from now on describing it as "Sqn Folklore"

Escape fromJava

Official 84 Sqn History Version (still some gaps & questions)

There were two lifeboats and one was judged to be unseaworthy. OC 84 Sqn, Wg Cdr John Jeudwine had to make the appalling decision on who to put in the seaworthy lifeboat, and who to leave behind. He chose to fill the lifeboat with complete Blenheim crews, a total of 12 aircrew.

Unofficial 84 Sqn Folklore Version

Same as above, but with the unsubstantiated allegation that various "other ranks" were ordered out of the seaworthy lifeboat.

2nd Unsubstantiated ridiculous bit of Folklore

That 84 Sqn were disgraced by this incident and would never be allowed back to the UK - this is a standard bit of folklore that comes around in cycles every now and again, - probably utter rubbish.

Danny42C

10th May 2016, 11:47

NigG,

Put this Post in for you (or so I thought). But senile dementia (and natural stupidity) led me to put it in on "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" #8570 (where I normally reside) instead. So here it is:

"NigG,

Welcome to our Old Crewroom in Cyberspace - and well met, Sir !

[In fact, they did continue to operate after the other VV squadrons had been withdrawn. The vertical dive started at about 12000', the aircraft finishing at maybe 200', and the pilot had to aim at the target, so low cloud made it unworkable. However, 84 developed a low level dive, which was less accurate, but still pretty effective.]

This puzzles me. I believe the decision to halt VV operations (on the onset of the '44 monsoon) was a policy one made by "Command" (in our case AHQ, Delhi). As to the exact date the axe fell, I cannot really help, as I was away recuperating from injuries sustained in my forced landing on 24th February, and did not come back until it was all over. Mistaken policy though it was (IMHO), I see no reason why it should not have applied to all the Squadrons.

We had all tried shallow dives (ca 45°) in monsoon weather, but discarded the idea because the famed VV accuracy had gone (the enormous nose of the VV plus the extra AoA from the zero AoI made for very poor forward visibilty) - and in any case the Hurricane and Beaufighter could do the job better, as they could see where they were going, and were much more agile - both important considerations when you are dodging round the jungle hills low level in pouring rain !

To carry out a "standard" VV dive, the drill was to start, as you say, from 10-12,000 AGL. You must be able to see your target from there (the leader above all, as unless he starts his dive absolutely vertically, the rest will be "off" increasingly as they follow him down). Trial and (lethal !) error had shown that if the average chap pulls as hard as he can (to the point of "grey-out") as the altimeter passes 3,500 AGL, he will finish level at 1,000 or so. That sounds a fair margin, but as you were coming down at terminal velocity (300 mph with dive brakes out), it works out at 400 ft/sec - or 2½ seconds leeway. You hadn't a lot to play with ! Of course, you would not pull to be level at 1,000 (making yourself a fine target !). but eased off at the end to get down to the treetops ASAP with most of your 300 mph, you would be very unlucky to be hit then.

[...You question why the VV didn't have more problems with Oscar fighters. In fact, the Allies had nine times the number of squadrons as the Japs, over Burma, in support of the '44/'45 offensive ... definite air superiority! Squadrons of Spits and Hurricanes were doing an excellent job of knocking down enemy aircraft..]

So they were (but not until the Spitfires came on the scene !) And they cannot be everwhere at the same time. But Burma is a big place; there were no "Early Warning" systems; the Vengeance "boxes" on Army Support simply took off to reach target at a time fixed by the Army. Then the troops would close in to 100 yards on the Jap bunker or other strongpoint, ready to fire the mortar smoke bomb onto it when they saw and heard us coming. 24 bombs, four tons of HE, would go into the bunker area in 20 seconds, any surviving Jap would be so dazed by noise and blast that he could offer little resistance when the troops rushed in with grenade, rifle and bayonet to mop up.

[...rarely flew with fighter cover...]

True !

[...So if enemy aircraft were sighted in the target area, the mission would be delayed until it was 'safer' to operate...]

Never heard of that - ever (except in the case of the Jap high level .air raid on Khumbirgram - my Post on "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" Thread p.136 #2710 -"Danny loses an Elephant").

Enough ! I must go now, will be off line....I may be gone some time...

Danny42C.

PS: Agree - you Dad should have got the DSO (unless he got the DFC for shooting down the Oscar ?)"

Of course "Pilot's Brevet" (that Best of All Threads - where All is Grist that Comes to the Mill) accepted it (only Union Jack picked up the anomaly of timing); you were welcomed aboard there (although you had never Posted on it); and it is All My Fault, and I apologise most humbly to you and to the Moderators for this monumental cock-up.

Now will get back to my exegesis of your #40 - there is enough meat there to keep us going for quite a while. Meanwhile I have expressed my apolgies to the good folk of "Pilot's Brevet"

In sackcloth and ashes,

Danny.

Danny42C

10th May 2016, 18:14

NigG,
...There's plenty about this in 'Vengenance The Vultee Vengeance dive bomber' by Peter C Smith'...
I've had a copy of this excellent reference book for a few years, but only skipped through it at odd times it to use the statistics quoted for VV production and alloction and, for example, to research the history of EZ999, which caused much head-scratching on these Forums over the provenance and identity of the Camden Museum Vengeance.

This time I've set myself to reading the "Operationl" chapters more carefully from Chapter 7 "Fruition" (p.98) to Chapter 11 "Cancellation" (up to p.154). The first thing I found is that many of the confident statements I've made over the years on this and "Pilot's Brevet" thread (on the basis of my own experience - or what I can remember of it) - are contradicted.

I'm glad that I made it clear, very soon after I started in 2012, that I must not be regarded in any way as an Authority on this (or any other) subject !

Anyway, I'll wrap a cold towel round my head, get down to reading it properly and report results as they are relevant to your Posts. Watch this space !

Cheers, Danny.

NigG

10th May 2016, 19:32

Sir PHL I guessed from your 'tongue-in-cheek' username that being irreverend might be your thing! Anyway, thanks for the modification. I'm probably a bit defensive on the topic of Wg Cdr Jeudwine. I recommend getting hold of Global Warrior, mentioned in my first post. It gives an insight into this guy. He was really solid and a well-respected leader... but not, it seems by the 'powers that be'. After escaping to Australia in the lifeboat, he was posted to the Western Desert where he commanded a Baltimore Squadron. In a letter to my father (congratulating him on being made 84 Sqn commander, in 1943) he advised him to lead the squadron rather than drive it. He said that, as squadron commander, he always trusted that his men would give of their best... and only if someone wasn't playing the game would he get very serious... and have them posted away. He added that he'd been 'posted on' himself, losing his Baltimore squadron because, in the opinion of the higher echelon, he was 'too soft' and should be driving his men harder. It seems that this didn't go against him, however, because when he got back to the UK he was given command of a squadron of Lancs... and went on to be a 'master bomber'. My father reckoned that he would have reached Air rank had he stayed on the the RAF after the war. Unfortunately he killed himself doing aerobatics during his first day of flying a Typhoon. In my opinion he's someone who's worthy of a lot of respect.

NigG

10th May 2016, 20:54

Danny

Thanks for your interesting feedback.

Why 84 continued operating during the monsoon while the other VV squadrons were withdrawn can only have been because they were still doing useful work, despite conditions having deteriorated. The other factor was that all VV squadrons were due to re-equip with Mosquitoes. No point in having squadrons in theatre if they can't locate and attack the target... better to withdraw them and give them superior aircraft that can readily operate beneath low cloud. That's my guess. (In the event, the Mosquito proved to be a disaster in tropical conditions, being made of wood and epoxy resin.)

Re. delaying an op if enemy aircraft were spotted in the target area, which you say you had never heard of... I think the book Vengeance quotes someone who was on an op when Jap fighters turned up. Fortunately they had fighter cover accompanying them and were able to scoot away at deck level, while the escort took on the Japs. It just underlines how vulnerable the VV was without an escort, so no doubt it made perfect sense to be cautious. I think 84 lost only one aircraft during their 5 months in theatre, and that was probably due to AA fire. So, the policy of being cautious when enemy aircraft were around, evidently paid-off.

Re. Arthur not getting the DSO... After the war, my father had lunch with his old boss at 221 Group, under whom he served in Burma. By then Vincent was AVM. He told my father that Gen Slim had put him up for a DSO, partly for his performance when briefing his commanders on the use of the VV in close air support, and for his training of Wingate's Chindits when they were preparing for battle, in Gwalior, and of course for his contribution in the air during the retaking of Burma (for which Slim and his units were profoundly grateful... as the VV squadrons were a decisive factor in the success of the early campaign). Vincent put the recommendation through normal RAF channels, rather than via the Army, along with a good many other recommendations for decorations. These ended up on the desk of Sir Keith Park, who refused most of them. This was in stark contrast to decorations going via Army channels to soldiers. In fact Arthur asked for all of his flight commanders to be decorated, but of the aircrew, only New Zealander Jimmy Hawke, his masterly navigator, was rewarded. People were totally non-plused over Park's miserliness. So many people had excelled. So my father received the DFC and was denied the DSO. It has to be said that one factor may have been his rank... he was an acting Sqn Ldr, substantive Flt Lt. He might have needed to be a substantive Sqn Ldr to be awarded a DSO (unless he'd shown extraordinary valour). Possibly Park was also used to giving decorations to airmen who had served in the European theatre, where, of course, the odds against survival were much higher. So perhaps he felt the chaps flying over Burma had had it relatively easy.

Danny42C

11th May 2016, 11:53

NigG (your #50),
...that one factor may have been his rank... he was an acting Sqn Ldr, substantive Flt Lt. He might have needed to be a substantive Sqn Ldr to be awarded a DSO (unless he'd shown extraordinary valour)...
He would've been a War Substantive Flt.Lt.

Smith has a Wg Cdr J.D.Gibbs in the Index, (in the Acknowledgements he has him as "Dennis Gibbs") as commanding 82 Squadron. I think we are talking about a Wg Cdr D.R. Gibbs, DSO. He won his on a Blenheim Squadron, which had been having a hard time doing shipping sweeps and the like in the Channel. So heavy were the losses that he (a mere F/O, or even a P/O) found himself commanding the Squadron (as the senior officer left alive). He did a very good job (as an Actg Wg Cdr. ?) and got the DSO for it. Or so the story went. He was certainly out in India in my time.

So I don't think (if the story be true) that your Dad was a War Sub Flt Lt. would have been a bar to a DSO award. Far more likely is the discreditable fact that the RAF top brass were bent on talking-down the Vengeance (in particular, and dive bombers in general), with the intention of talking them out altogether; restricting awards would fit in with that. Smith has a lot to say about it.
...So perhaps he felt the chaps flying over Burma had had it relatively easy...
Some of the chaps had it easy ! - the VVs. The Jap Army Commanders in Burma seemed fixed on the idea that their Oscars were supplied for Army Co-Op duty only, and never thought of turning them loose on us. Most of the late 1942 VV pilot intake were straight off a Fighter OTU; but any fool could see that a properly handled pair of Oscars could destroy a whole box-of-six VVs without difficulty (if we stuck together, which was the tactic).

100 m.p.h. faster than a VV, infinitely more agile and more heavily armed, they'd cut us to ribbons. We had to fly with this Sword of Damocles hanging over us all the time, but thankfully it never fell !

Preview: one of the first fruits of my research: the Le-u problem is solved. 84 were at Khumbirgram, not in the Arakan. Khumbirgram to Le-u is only 130-odd miles. A VV could do it easily. The D.Tel. has a lot to answer for.

Danny.

NigG

11th May 2016, 17:11

Amidst all this 84 Squadron correspondence, it may be of note that the 'prize' Letter to the Editor in Country Life this week concerns an 84 Squadron flight in 1969.
That'll probably be 'Foreign Country Life'. The squadron is unique in not having served in the UK since October 1919! :) But thanks for the tip... I'll have a read when I'm next in Smiths. :E

NigG

11th May 2016, 18:15

Danny

I didn't follow your point about 'war substantive' rank, or Gibbs. Anyway my point about Arthur not being senior enough to earn the DSO is based on the Wikipedia entry for the DSO. It says that the award normally went to those who held the rank of major or above. More junior officers had been awarded it, but that generally indicated that their valour was close to that which merited the VC. Since Arthur was only an acting Sqn Ldr, I reasoned that he was deemed to be one notch too junior to qualify for the DSO. Anyway...

Yes 84 was operating from Khumbirgram. I see from the 84 squadron history (Scorpion's Sting) your squadron (110) was there too... although you, Danny, had personally been evacuated by that time... Both squadrons were subject to a Jap raid which inflicted only very minor damage on their respective aircraft. I see that Arthur led both 84 and 110 as part of a Wing for some ops.

We previously discussed why 84 stayed on in theatre after the monsoon arrived, while the other five Vultee Vengeance squadrons were withdrawn. According to the book, the other squadrons were withdrawn 'for rest and re-equipment'. Presumably 84 stayed on because they had arrived later than the other squadrons... and the weather was making operations less effective using VVs... and the Mosquitoes were about ready to go into service. To 84's credit they often managed to cope with the monsoon, using their low-dive bombing technique, as necessary, and their weather-recce Spitfire to assess conditions.

Amazing days! Who wouldn't want to have been there?!... although at the time, it can't have been much fun. Only the companionship, sense of purpose and adrenalin buzz to compensate for the discomfort and strain... (I guess).

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture361-taking-off-mission.jpg

Tankertrashnav

11th May 2016, 23:12

I once had the privilege of remounting a DSO group for the son of the recipient. His father won an immediate DSO as a pilot officer, when he was the pilot of a Beaufighter which ditched in the sea off the North Cornish coast. The full story is here

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1732098767027185.1073741831.1676367179267011&type=3

Incidentally the medals are illustrated as I mounted them about 30 years ago. It was my first attempt at court mounting and it took me an age!

A.B.Harvey, as he was always known, was a Cornish boy and post war he opened and ran a gun shop in Falmouth. In many years of being involved in medals I have never seen another DSO to a pilot officer, and the details of Harvey's action would seem to support the idea that it was only awarded to junior officers who had just "missed" a Victoria Cross recommendation.

Danny42C

12th May 2016, 09:15

NigG (your #53),
...I didn't follow your point about 'war substantive' rank...
The following has been lifted from "RAF Commands Forums":
...The main feature of the period of World War Two as regards the administration of the armed forces (British in this case, although generally a universal response) was that for these purposes it was designated as an "emergency" (not to be confused with the later pronouncement that the unpleasantness in Malaya between 1949 and 1960 was deemed to be an emergency, and therefore by definition NOT a war!) Thus the entire establishment of the RAF and all appointments to commisisons and promotions approved during period of the emergency were by nature considered to be of a "temporary" nature. This also, of course, applied equally to all non-commisisoned ranks.
Generally speaking all wartime substantive ranks were designated as "war substantive", or "w.s." for short, I think this is explained in the RAF Lists, and cannot be compared with (normal peacetime) substantive ranks. As has been already mentioned, it took a lot of administrative sweat to work out all the appropriate ranks and seniorities of all remaining wartime individuals still serving in the postwar RAF, based on the approved peacetime establishment and annual running costs. It would be true to say that quite a high proportion of WW2 appointments to fill posts in schools and particularly to leadership posts on operational squadrons were held by lower-ranking officers holding acting rank specific to the appointment, and many of these might have had to drop at least one rank, perhaps two or even three.
Whenever the RAF is operating under "peacetime" conditions of service it is probably correct to say that there were "normal" substative ranks (vast majority of individuals), as well as small proportion of acting ranks (to compensate those individuals of lower rank appointed to posts normally filled by an officer of NCO of the higher rank), and sometimes, in particular situations and for various reasons, there could be temporary ranks. Honorary (unpaid) commissions with rank were held by certain individuals who undertook certain functions and were held in higher esteem, or freely offered their services on a voluntary basis considered of some value to the Crown.
And could somebody please enlighten me as to the fundamental difference (if there is one, apart from the name) between an RAF temporary (wartime) commision and an emergency commission, or was it simply that it replaced the "temorary" with "emergency" at some point? All replies welcome.
David D...
In practice (as far as I was concerned) it meant that all promotions in wartime were "war substantive", in the sense that when the war ended, so did they. My Commission (and my previous airman service) were in the RAFVR; the position seemed to be that when the war ended, so did the RAFVR and my Commission.

The RAFVR was not reconstituted until 1947 (?), I was commissioned in it a Flying Officer in 1948, and in 1949 was commissioned (as Fg Off) into the RAF on Short Service (8 years active + 4 reserve), and in 1954 transferred into to a Limted Career Permanent Commission (don't ask).

Clear so far ?

The Point is: your Dad would have been a war substantive Flight Lieutenant, Acting Squadron Leader. Supposing the war had ended at that point. His post (and acting rank) would be "gone with the wind", his Flight Lieutenant (w.s.) - in theory - could go, too.

But his award should reflect the rank he held when he earned it, a DSO, AFAIK, is appropriate to a Major or equivalent.

The Wg Cdr Gibbs story is told as an illustration how a Fg Off (A/Wg Cdr) could properly be awarded the DSO (the fact that Smith mixed up two Gibbs is a red herring, and I should not have introduced it).

Danny.

Danny42C

12th May 2016, 09:40

NigG (follow-on to above),
... Both squadrons were subject to a Jap raid which inflicted only very minor damage on their respective aircraft...
Minor damage to an elephant, too. Three airmen killed. Whole story on "Pilot's Brevet" p.135 #2700,
...although you, Danny, had personally been evacuated by that time...
Not exactly "evacuated"! Shanghai'd onto 8 Squadron IAF, more like. The raid was on 11th November, last flew for 110 on 13th.

Danny.

Danny42C

12th May 2016, 17:55

NigG,

In the Index to "Vengeance", Peter C. Smith has no entry for "Chindit(s)", but "Gill, Sqdn Ldr, Arthur M." (pp 69-72), but has nothing relating to the Chindits.

But (p.106) gives:

"Arthur Gill was later to record how: 'By December 1943, 84 Squadron was ready to move forward to the Arakan, even going so far as to advance party to Chittagong where they bought a large brood of hens for the Squadron's Christmas dinner'.

"Two days before we were due to move, however, the A.O.C. No 221 group flew to Ranchi to say that we had been selected to support General Orde Wingate's Long Range Penetration Group (1st Indian Division), the Chindits, and so, on 6th December, 1943, we moved to Maharajpur, Gwalior, to train and exercise with General Wingate's forces."...
Gwalior is south of Delhi, a long way West. What happened to the hens is not recorded !

(pp 121-122):

..."The new penetration by Wingate's troops, coded "Operation Thursday", had been muted as far back as the Quebec Conference, which Wingate himself had secretly attended. Arthur Gill himself described what this involved : We spent two months training and learning to co-operate with these jungle columns. It was in this period that we devised our method of attack, after many arguments on the subject with Wingate himself. Ultimately they got it right with Wingate,and when his column moved off in March 1944, 84 Squadron stood by to co-operate with his demands...
But what were these 'methods of attack' agreed ? Peter C. Smith is infuriatingly silent on the point; we will never know, unless from the Chindit records or 84's ORB.
...They moved to Khumbirgram airfield in Assam on 10th February 1944. They were to relieve No.45 Squadron initially, however, and they carried out their first dive bombing attack proper on an enemy occupied village a few days after their arrival in Assam. Le-u was the target on the next conbined attack by the Vengeance Squadrons, both mounting two attacks each this day, with 22 machines from 110 Squadron and 23 from 84 Squadron...
At first sight, we are in the realms of fantasy. A VV Squadron had 16 aircraft, of which it would be expected to keep 12 serviceable. Perhaps he means "sorties" instead of "machines", and the "sorties" were flown as two separate strikes.
...On the 11th the targets were more diverse, 84 Squadron striking at Gwengu and Nyaungintha, with six planes on each mission, while 110 was hitting Nanbon and Tanga with the same numbers of aircraft. On the 11th the targets were more diverse, 84 striking at Gwengu and Nyaungintha, with six planes on each mission, while 110 was hitting Nanbon and Tanga with the same numbers of aircraft...
There follows a lengthy description of a VV dive from a Bob Browning RNZAF but he is listed as being on 8 Squadron IAF, and we know where that was then (Arakan) so not relative.

More in a while.

Danny.

Helena Handbasket

12th May 2016, 23:51

Max Arthur's excellent book "There shall be Wings" contains an interview with F/Sgt David Russell who was in the second lifeboat. They hit a reef and started to sink. They were actually rescued by Jeudwine. It is a very full account of what really happened.
Danny; I have followed this wonderful thread from day 1 and thank you for your amazing recollections. My dad was on 82 Squadron in India and worked on the VV. He is long dead now but he did not have much good to say about them. I recently found his photo album from that period and I'll see if I can reproduce anything of interest.

Danny42C

13th May 2016, 13:55

Helena Handbasket,

Thank you for the kind words ! I don't know if you've strayed much further than this Thread, but if not I can recommend the Finest Thread on PPRuNe Forums - namely "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" to you.

My own weary tale starts there on p.114 #2262, and if you want a real belly-laugh, see Geriaviator's p.178 #3558 there and all around are his stories of a small boy's times in Khormaksar.

Danny.

NigG

13th May 2016, 21:15

Danny

Thanks for that. I noticed my father was granted a 'War emergency' commission. Though his rank and commission appear not to have terminated with the end of the war, as you implied it might. He continued as a VR until 1946, when he was granted a permanent commission in the regular RAF. That was good news for me, because he subsequently felt financially secure enough to marry my mother and procreate :)

Helena Handbasket

13th May 2016, 21:48

Yes of course, Danny. That was the epic thread that I was referring to. After spending a couple of years in the sixties on 84 Sqn in Khormaksar, I don't remember much that I "belly laughed " about. The trips to Eastleigh, New Sarum and Mbabane, well that was a different matter.

Danny42C

14th May 2016, 13:47

Anyone who'd like to see flying Vengeances, and has not already seen it, look at Chugalug's "Vlad's" You tube (Pilot's Brevet - p.129 #2561, and the commentaries which followed).

Danny.

Union Jack

15th May 2016, 18:30

The following programme at 8 pm this evening BBC Two - Burma's Secret Jungle War with Joe Simpson, Episode 1 may be of interest relative to recent posts, given that my geography is not as good as Danny's....

......and a belated reminder for those currently online that Episode 2 starts in half an hour.

Jack

NigG

15th May 2016, 21:22

Danny

Re the method of attack that was agreed with Brig. Wingate, Arthur had some difficulty in persuading him to be cooperative. Arthur argued for triangulating a target with smoke mortar bombs in order to identify it from the air. But Wingate didn't want his Chindits (10,000 of them, not 900 as I previously wrote) to have to carry smoke mortar bombs in addition to High Explosive, and he was concerned that the Japs would just put down a triangle on the Chindit's position once they realised they were being identified by smoke for aerial attack. Arthur pointed out that it was worth carrying the extra load of mortar bombs if it was going to result in close air support being available. The solution to the Japs putting down smoke themselves, was to have agreed colours for the day... maybe 1 red smoke and 2 white. This was practiced in the field with the Chindits in their training area at Gwalior. The 84 guys got to know the soldiers in the process, which gave added poignancy when they were later in battle... the soldiers seeing their Airforce colleagues fly in to attack, and the 84 aircrew, knowing their Chindit colleagues were down in the jungle below, relying on them to do a good job. Close air support at its best, maybe, given the technology of the time.

NigG

15th May 2016, 21:30

Danny

Thanks for the heads-up on the footage of the Vengeance on Youtube. I didn't know it existed. Quite emotional for me to see it... as if I was witnessing my father in his aircraft, seventy years ago. I notice that there's several clips available on Youtube, by searching 'Vultee Vengeance'.

NigG

15th May 2016, 21:45

Union Jack

Thanks! Just caught the second half of the Chindits programme.. will view it fully on iplayer... no doubt it will be in the 'history' section. Simpson mentioned aerial attack by Mustangs and showed an old bomb crater. He lamented the effect of the Commonwealth/Jap fighting on the Burmese civilians... there must have been casualties when Jap-held villages were bombed. Such was part of the sorry price for the Japanese invading Burma. Civilians died, but at least Burma eventually gained its freedom.

Danny42C

16th May 2016, 08:48

NigG,

Further working through "Vengeance", there is little relevant to 84 Squadron in particular, as Peter C. Smith intermingles official reports with many personal anecdotes from all the Squadrons in order to weave a coherent story.

But there are some repeated statements that I find it difficult to reconcile with my own remembered experience. For example, there many reports of (say) "xx Squadron and yy Squadron attacked enemy positions at zzzzzz with 12 aircraft from each Squadron". I flew 52 sorties with 110 RAF and 8 Squadrons and on only one (the very first), we put up 12 aircraft. But that was only done by combining a 'box-of-six' from 110 Squadron (a Flight) with another Flight from 82 (who were with us at Chittagong in May '43). All the rest of my 'ops' were flown in a single box-of-six.

I suppose you could say that the leader of 82 'led' 12 aircraft, in the sense that he navigated to the target, but the 110 'box' flew a mile behind, and its No.1 would plan his own approach to it, and signal (we kept R/T silence) separately the moves into echelon starboard and open bomb doors.

The reason is that the box-of-six is the largest unit which would have any chance of defending itself against fighter attack (and that would be a slim chance indeed). A box-of-four would be better. A "Balbo" of 12 would have no hope at all.

IMHO (and in the opinion of many others), the best tactic if we came under fighter attack would be to break, scatter, dive for the deck and bolt for home, Not very gallant - but then a live survivor is more use than a dead hero ! (He who fights and runs away.....). It was a good thing that we were never intercepted (and to this day nobody really knows why not).

More later, Danny.

PS: The above was still in draft last night, and I'm very interested in what you tell me in your #64. I'm a bit doubtful about the "triangulation" idea. On our 'ASC' sorties ("Army Support, Close", in the back-to-front nomenclature of the Services), we found that one mortar smoke bomb on target was enough, and of course we countered the "tit-for-tat" Jap tactic with coloured smoke, as you say. And it would be a third of the extra load that the Chindits had to carry. And it would give the formation leader a fixed point to aim at, rather than having to "guesstimate" the centre of a triangle.

On every strike, the accuracy of the leader is vital - for after the first bombs the target marker has vanished in a growing cloud of dust and smoke, all the following pilots can do is to line up on the centre of the cloud. I was last man down on the 12-ship sortie I mentioned, and the cloud I had to aim at was huge.

D.

Tankertrashnav

16th May 2016, 09:17

He lamented the effect of the Commonwealth/Jap fighting on the Burmese civilians... there must have been casualties when Jap-held villages were bombed. Such was part of the sorry price for the Japanese invading Burma. Civilians died, but at least Burma eventually gained its freedom.

Nevil Shute explores this in his excellent story The Chequer Board. An RAF pilot who is helped by the Burmese when he comes down into Japanese held territory comes back after the war ends and starts to help to put the country back on its feet.

Danny42C

16th May 2016, 10:01

NigG (your #66),
... there must have been casualties when Jap-held villages were bombed...
Sadly, yes. But our "bread-and-butter" 'op' was taking out Japanese army dug-in bunkers (somewhere in "Vengeance" it is stated that a few of these went 20 ft deep); that would be 80% of our work; the Vengeance might have been designed for the job; we went at it with gusto; the Army was very appreciative and said so - for they would have taken many casualties if these places had to be reduced by conventional means.

But they weren't very big (around the size of a doubles tennis court), and four tons of HE with delay fuses (for deep penetration) on target would be enough: anything more than six VV would be overkill.

Danny.

NigG

16th May 2016, 20:44

Danny

Thanks for your information and points you raised. They sent me scurrying for 'Scorpion's Sting', the 84 Squadron history. Happily I can give you a more authoritative explanation than I previously did:

Target identification. In December '43 Arthur discussed the topic with Brig. Wingate, commander of the Chindits. The ground was often too featureless for Wingate's suggestion that troops would identify targets by sending a map reference. Arthur proposed the use of two smoke mortar bombs, one at each end of the target at the appointed Time Over Target (TOT). Wingate raised the risk of the Japs countering the technique by putting smoke down on friendly troops. Arthur proposed that they either used coloured smoke, of a specified colour, or if coloured smoke was not available, using either three mortar bombs to form a triangle, that defined the target area, or four to make a square. This technique was tested on the ground in Gwalior with the Chindits, and was subsequently adopted.

I recall my father explaining that there was an added complication when they were using their low level dive technique, during the monsoon, when cloud was too low to permit a vertical dive. There was a risk of bombs missing the target, usually over-shooting it. This was potentially hazardous for nearby friendly troops. So it was important for the pattern of mortar smoke bombs to define where the troops were. That way, the dive was made across the front of the troops, so that any over-shooting bombs or bombs falling short wouldn't imperil them.

Number of aircraft deployed on an op. 84 Squadron had sixteen Vengeances, 12 available for ops and 4 as reserves or being serviced. Normally 12 were flown for a mission. Sometimes the 12 would separate, 6 attacking one target, while the other 6 went for another one. 3 were enough to destroy a bridge. The formation used was invariably in stepped-down Vics of 3 aircraft, each flight of 3 being stepped below the one in front. This was easy to maintain and was less tiring on long flights (some taking 3 to 4 hours). It also gave optimal protection against attack by fighters, the rearward guns, combining their fire power. The sixth and twelfth aircraft carried cameras, which the pilot would switch on before he peeled-off into the attacking dive. In an attack by 6 aircraft, they would then record the accuracy of bomb-strikes of the first 4 aircraft. Film would be assessed by 221 Group Ops Room, who would decide if a second attack was necessary, depending on the type of target.

Bombs. Bombload was usually 2X 500 lb and 2X 250 lb HE. Nose rods might be fitted to detonate the bomb slightly above ground surface, to maximise blast. Delayed action were used on deep bunkers, to effect penetration. HE and incendaries were used for supply dumps and stores. Bridges received both instantaneous and delayed action bombs. The latter going-off up to seven days later, to spoil attempts to repair the bridge.

Opening the book at random, exactly the right page was before my eyes. I think my father might be taking an interest in this Thread! :)

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture364-aircraft-camera-picture-target-tiddim-road.jpg

Danny42C

17th May 2016, 16:51

NigG,

You've given me so much material here (and all "up my street") that I hardly know where to start !
...The ground was often too featureless for Wingate's suggestion that troops would identify targets by sending a map reference...
It was (nearly always) too featureless ! Only in cases like the Akyab Jail strike ("Pilot's Brevet" p.133 #2658) was the target so big that you couldn't fail to find it or miss it when you did. A grid reference in a thousand square miles of jungle means very little to a poor pilot or nav in an aircraft, I'm afraid.
...one at each end of the target at the appointed Time Over Target (TOT)...
No, you can't rely on the timekeeping being as accurate as that. Best idea is for the Army chaps to "gather round" as close as they dare, wait till they can hear and then see us coming, pause till we are about 45 degrees elevation from them and whack down the smoke.
...I recall my father explaining that there was an added complication when they were using their low level dive technique, during the monsoon, when cloud was too low to permit a vertical dive. There was a risk of bombs missing the target, usually over-shooting it...
Even in vertical bombing, there was less "line error" (left-right) than over/undershooting (forward-back). As the dive angle decreases, the line error, if anything, should decrease, but the over/undershoot will increase, as the nose has to be pulled up more (a lot more in a VV, with its long nose and no AoI), and the release point becomes more of a guess. As you say:
...This was potentially hazardous for nearby friendly troops. So it was important for the pattern of mortar smoke bombs to define where the troops were. That way, the dive was made across the front of the troops, so that any over-shooting bombs or bombs falling short wouldn't imperil them...
Good idea (never did it myself, or heard of it being done). Can see the sense of it in a shallow dive, where you can choose your heading in the dive. But vertical, your aircraft chooses your heading for you, as you are "weathercocking" (twisting) all the time down to keep the yellow line on target, so it is pot-luck whichever heading you bomb and pull-out on.

(Still small voice: why not use the Hurricane and Beaufighter for LL bombing, as they can see so much better, and do it all the time , and so are much better at it ?)
...The sixth and twelfth aircraft carried cameras, which the pilot would switch on before he peeled-off into the attacking dive. In an attack by 6 aircraft, they would then record the accuracy of bomb-strikes of the first 4 aircraft. Film would be assessed by 221 Group Ops Room, who would decide if a second attack was necessary, depending on the type of target...
And there was me, with my ("Pilot's Brevet", p.135, #2684):
...An air staff officer back at Group had a bright idea (make for the hills, chaps!) Why not kill two birds with one stone? Fit a camera in the bomb bay of the last Vengeance to go down, and let him take the photographs himself after he's bombed. They checked for free space in the bay: it could be done..
Had to think hard about this. I assume the camera was fitted facing forward (not in the bomb-bay, as in my case). 6 (?) might see the leader's bomb flash and smoke. Ye..ss, but my guess would be that 4 or 5 would be better, 6 might see only the dust and smoke cloud kicked up by 2 and 3. But they were the ones who were doing it, they should know.

(You'll have seen "[I]Vengeance" pp 150-151 - wonderful series of shots, but must have been taken from some other aircraft.
...Sometimes the 12 would separate, 6 attacking one target, while the other 6 went for another one...
That's more like it !
..3 were enough to destroy a bridge...
True - but only provided you hit it ! A bridge is notoriously difficult to hit, you have to destroy a span or an abutment (the Narigan bridge in Akyab survived many attempts to hit it, before it was brought down, I believe).
... It also gave optimal protection against attack by fighters, the rearward guns, combining their fire power...
Well, I don't know what air gunnery refresher training 84 Squadron had (and the IAF, possibly at OTU). The rest had none. In your back seat might be a Navigator who had never touched a Browning in his life, still less fired one, or an old Blenheim Wop/AG or AG who was last in its two-gun turret in early '42.

The Vengeance had a Heath Robinson affair in the back. Basically, it was a pillar on a joint on the cockpit floor. This could wobble about all over the place, but was restrained by a couple of links. On top was the twin-gun assembly which had limited free movement. It was all handwork, there was no power assistance.

And even 12 of these are going to fight off a determined attack by a couple of pairs of well-handled "Oscars" ? (100 mph faster than the formation, much more agile than even a single VV, and more heavily armed ?)

Forget it ! It would be the Fairey "Battle" v. Me109 story ('39-'40) in France all over again. Our back-seat men would blaze away valiantly, but would be unlikely to hit anything other than their own tails (or somebody else's), what with their pilots screwing the things round desperately to turn into the next attacker.

Good thing it never happened !

Much too much, I'm afraid.

Danny.

NigG

17th May 2016, 19:08

Danny

Thanks for that interesting set of observations. Remarkable days, for sure! Earlier you mentioned that you'd completed 52 sorties with 110 and 8 Sqns. No doubt the number of vertical dives you did greatly exceeded that number. Arthur, when he was your age, wrote the following in 84 Sqn Association's newsletter:

'Belated physical effects of dive bombing

A medical report appeared in an American aviation journal which stated that dive bomber crews could not safely undertake more than 70 vertical dives,without physical damage due to the adverse effects of high g-forces on the body during pull-out at the bottom of the dive. Yet most of our crews did hundreds of dives during training and operationally; pulling 7g-plus without any special clothing such as 'g-suits'. I sometimes wonder if that verdict has any bearing on the fact that very few of our crews are still living. Several of those still alive have suffered physically in recent years - with severe headaches and strokes.

It's a pity the doctors didn't tell us about this before we dived more than three times the maximum number of dives now recommended. A little late now! However, they were exhilarating days. We were young; we were lucky in many ways; and, most important, most of us survived - thank the Lord.'

Danny42C

18th May 2016, 13:22

NigG,

This sent me scurrying back to my log. I started on my new toy straight after the New Year (5th Jan '43). Luckily, we (110 *) seem to have got ourselves a good bombing range right away (cf "Pilot's Brevet" p.130 #2592). On this we practised (or rather taught ourselves !) dive bombing from then @ to May 12th, then went off for a week's 'ops' together with 82 at Chittagong before the rains came and we had to come back.

Note *: At the end of April, my log is countersigned by Sqdn. Ldr. A.M. Gill. How come ? Don't think 84 was with us at Madhaiganj, but suppose they must have been.

Note @: March is a blank, seems I had malaria and jaundice.

Anyway, I must have done over 100 practice dives in that time (4 per sortie), plus 52 for real, plus just one more demo (which did not go at all well ! - cf "Pilot's Brevet" p.151 #3019).

I've never heard of lasting 'G' effects from prolonged dive bombing; would suppose that the proportion of surviving 90+ veteran dive bombers would be much the same as that of the the population as a whole. In any case, today's FJs regularly pull much more than the possible 5'G's which was all we could get before "grey-out".
...It's a pity the doctors didn't tell us about this before we dived more than three times the maximum number of dives now recommended. A little late now! However, they were exhilarating days. We were young; we were lucky in many ways; and, most important, most of us survived - thank the Lord.'...
Amen to that !...:ok:

Danny.

NigG

18th May 2016, 20:26

Danny

I was hoping to find an explanation for Arthur signing your log book. 84 Sqn had moved to Ratmalana, Ceylon on 19 April '43, in anticipation of a Jap naval attack. It didn't materialise, so they moved back north, to Ranchi, by August. I'll be able to lay my hands on Arthur's log book at the weekend, so hopefully this will shed more light.

Re. modern pilots pulling high G-forces, presumably they do it with the assistance of pressure suits. Maybe your lack of pressure suits had health implications, and it was this that the American medic was concerned about. Who knows? Anyway, you've made it to 94 and my father made it to 100 (albeit with a first stroke when he was 78). So one might legitimately wonder whether this chap was 'crying wolf'.

I wonder if you had any personal experience of the Vengeance's teething problems? On 24 Dec '42, Arthur took one of the squadron's first aircraft on a flight from Jodpur to Delhi, having collected it from the MU at Karachi, earlier in the day. 75 miles out from Jodpur, the engine cut out. He managed to keep it airborne, by madly operating a hand wobble-pump to keep the fuel flowing. They made it back to Jodpur with aching arms but without further incident. It turned out the electrical fuel pumps were faulty. There was however an upside to the story. The Marahajah of Jodpur had made an open invitation for officers to visit his brand new palace, 14 years in the building, the date being Christmas Eve. Arthur and his Nav. went along for the overnight stay. It was a remarkably opulent place, gold taps and door knobs. At dinner they sat around an enormous round table, where a toy train went about on a track to deliver food and condiments! Before departure, they were given gifts by the Marahajah. Arthur's was a very nice silver tankard, inscribed with his name, location and date. We still have it, in a display case. There were some generous-hearted, pro-British Indians, as well as the other lot, who of course, were pushing for Independence.

Stanwell

18th May 2016, 21:28

Danny42C

19th May 2016, 13:07

NigG (your #74),

Thank you - can I put a proper reply on hold for a day or so ? (so that I can first finish and get on this Thread a very strange story indeed).

Meanwhile, cf "Pilot's Brevet" p.129 #2568, and have a browse round. Plenty of VV engine troubles there !

Danny.

Stanwell,

Wouldn't put money on it !

D.

Danny42C

19th May 2016, 16:04

NigG,

Finished early, as I've put a bit of "Pilot's Brevet" into it.

Some of the contributors to Peter C. Smith's excellent "Vengeance !" have seriously misled him (no doubt inadvertently, of course, because, as I've once said: "All memory is fallible, and an old man's memory is particularly fallible").

The most unfortunate example (to my mind) comes in p.117 of the text. I quote verbatim:
..."Bud McInnes writes..............'After a month or so on ops we started carrying the large incendiary bombs under the wing,..
Never had anything to do with them. Think they were 200lb. Why incendiaries in place of HE ? - suppose something like a petroleum tank farm had come in range as they moved forward behind the Army.
...and the Squadron [110] did have one accident in this regard - where one of these incediaries was a hang-up for some reason. Although the pilot knew he had a hang-up on return to base he landed anyway, and the bomb fell off and exploded right under his wing. Needless to say, the aircraft went up in a ball of smoke, and no one was saved"...
This is supported by what he heard from:
...'Glyn Hansford who was an armourer with 110 Squadron. His mount was a three-ton Chevrolet rather than a dive bomber, but he and his companions played a full part in this campaign. It was one long continuing round to keep the planes flying, but some incidents stood out as he related to me [McInnes], and the one just mentioned was one of them'..........'There were many acts of courage and devotion to duty. One of the most vivid was that of a Canadian pilot, Flying Officer Duncan , who returned from a sortie with a bomb hung up, which he could not shake off at all. He attempted to land with it on, a very risky thing to do, and it blew up as he touched down. He and his aircraft were totally destroyed...
Now cf ("Pilot's Brevet") p.134 #2680, and see if you can make sense of it all. Clearly they had got hold of the wrong name. But weirdly, Duncan was the name that had worked down to us at Digri with 8 Sqdn. How can such a hideous mistake have been made, even on the 'grapevine' ? (it had me at one time even thinking reluctantly of a possible Martin Guerre scenario).

Who actually died ? Don't know.

To start with, I knew "Bud" (but always as "Red") McInnes (RCAF) very well; he was on "B" Flight of 110 Sqdn, and had come out with me in December, '42. He was later the first CO of 1340 Flight from its formation in September '44 to April '45, when he went back to Canada and I took over from him for a year till the end in '46.

Reg Duncan (RCAF) was a good friend on "A" Flight of 110 and was one of the Blenheim veterans. He was my mentor for my first (and only!) training ride in the VV. Flew on 'ops' with him many a time. Must have gone home very early on, for I believe the RCAF counted their overseas tour (as was only right) from the time they left Canada, and Reg would have had several months training in UK (inc OTU), and then spent some time on Blenheim ops before they went out to India.
...along with his little pet dog, which he had taken with him on every mission'...
Nonsense ! Impossible ! In any case, Duncan's "Spunky" had had to be put down a year before - and it wasn't a "little" dog!

(The Index shows a Handsford, Glyn 117. But the Acknowledgements list only a HANDSFORTH, T.G. M.T. Driver, 84 Squadron RAF, but he is not indexed neither is Handford acknowledged. We may be talking about the same man - but this is is irrelevant).

Back to normal, now!

Danny.

NigG

19th May 2016, 20:01

Danny

Thanks for the Brevet reference and info regarding the wobble-pump. Yes 'Vengeance' is a good book, albeit with a slow start.

I remember reading about the hung-up bomb and the pilot failing to shake the thing off... with appalling consequences when he landed. It reminds me of an incident my father had... which wasn't as dangerous but probably wasn't very amusing at the time.

Before he joined 84 Squadron in the Western Desert, he was a staff pilot at 42 Air School in South Africa. They used the Fairey Battle for trainee bomb aimers among other training roles. On one occasion he returned from a training sortie to find a blanket of sea-fog rolling in over the airfield. It had covered the airfield buildings but the landing area was still clear. Out of youthful mischief, he circled the airfield a few times, knowing that the staff in the fog-bound buildings below would assume that the whole airfield was covered and that the ‘poor’ pilot was probably heading for a crash-landing.

On his final approach to land, he released the undercarriage to find that only one wheel had come down, the other one was still locked and retracted inside the wing. The little prank of a few moments ago was now transformed into serious situation. He rocked the aircraft, applied positive and negative G, and flew over the control tower to get them to make a visual check. It was well and truly stuck. He then made his approach to land. As he came in over the grass, he was joined by two fire engines racing alongside, one at each wing tip. From the cockpit he frantically waved for them to give him more clearance. After touch-down, he carefully kept up the wing that had the jammed wheel. At the last moment, the wing descended to the ground, rotating the airplane with a brisk swing to the left, before it came to rest. The damage was surprisingly light. The ground crew changed the wing-tip and a flap, and the aircraft was up in the air again in the afternoon! The fault was a defective undercarriage lock. Of course, aircraft technology was a lot less dependable than it is today.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture343-fairey-battle-after-landing-hung-up-undercarriage-42-air-school-port-elizabeth-south-africa-1941.jpg

NigG

19th May 2016, 20:23

A truly fascinating exchange, Nigel and Danny. I read every word twice.

Nigel, in spite of Danny's protestations, I'm pretty sure he'll achieve at least the ton before he puts the red line under his last real-life log book entry.
Yes it's pretty amazing to have discovered a wartime Vengeance pilot! My father was the last of the 84 Sqn Vengeance aircrew. Danny is brilliant, of course,... but God!... he keeps me on my toes. I've learned the hard way that writing stuff just from memory is a bad mistake! He soon spots the errors. I have a great deal of respect... and being 94 years old is not easy for anyone. I know that from my father's experience. (Hope you don't mind me discussing you, Danny!) :)

Danny42C

20th May 2016, 09:10

NigG (your #79),
... (Hope you don't mind me discussing you, Danny!)...
Not at all ! (If you stick your head above the PPRuNe parapet, you must expect a few brickbats with the plaudits).
D.

NigG (your #74 again, filleted),
...by August. I'll be able to lay my hands on Arthur's log book at the weekend, so hopefully this will shed more light...
We're all looking forward to it - Log books (F.414) are worth their weight in gold. Even seventy years after, you have all the accurate flying dates and details of movements. and can (fairly) easily trace a man's flying career. At the very back there is a "Record of Service" and "Aircraft Flown", as well. All the flying monthly summaries are countersigned by your Flight and Squadron Commanders. It is one of any aircrew's prize possessions - he will never willingly part with it.
...Maybe your lack of pressure suits had health implications,..
Don't think so. Never did me any harm I know of.
...I wonder if you had any personal experience of the Vengeance's teething problems?...
Where shall I start ? Better yet - cf "Pilot's Brevet" from about p.130 #2591 onwards.
...There were some generous-hearted, pro-British Indians...
Of course, the Maharajahs were all pro-British - they were safe in their Princely States (so long as they "played ball" with the Viceroy !) After Independence they got short shrift from the new Government, got their marching orders and were pensioned off. I believe the Palace of Jodpur is now a luxury hotel.
... as well as the other lot, who of course, were pushing for Independence...
The question of the relationship between the Raj and its former (till 1947) subjects in the Indian subcontinent is an enormous subject with 300+ years of turbulent history behind it. Far too much for discussion on this (or any other) Forum - and I don't feel qualified to try !

I've got "a foot in both camps": "Wg Cdr Arthur Gill, DFC, OBE" and "Pilot.s Brevet" Threads now, and it's a bit awkward. Could I possibly suggest that anything which does not refer to your distinguished late Father in any way is Posted on "Brevet" Thread (and vice versa) ? Just a thought (refusal will not give offence !)

Cheers, Danny.

NigG

22nd May 2016, 18:53

Danny

I now have Arthur's log book in front of me. Unfortunately there's no indication of why it was he signed your log book in late April '43. The Squadron had recently moved down to Ceylon, in anticipation of a Jap naval attack. He was doing little flying in April, just an airshow near Madras. I guess he had his hands full.

Yes, of course I'll be careful not to 'overwork' you! I appreciate you're busy in the 'Pilot's Brevet' Thread, and being asked questions that you've already covered in that Thread means that you have the somewhat unwelcome task of needing to trawl through and finding a page reference for me to view. Apologies... I'll be more careful!

Arthur's log book gives some insight into his operational flying over Burma. I've selected a representative sample of entries during the five months he was leading 84 Sqdn there, mid-February to mid-July 1944. The duration of ops were typically 1.5 to 2 hours, while the long range ones in support of the Chindits were 2.5 to 3.5 hours. A small selection, of 15 entries, out of the 108 operations he flew during this 150 day period, are as follows. (His record of the type of bombs dropped hasn’t been included):

29 February Bomb attack on Jap village of Metkalet. 12 Vengeances. Highly successful. Strafed target with front and rear guns.
4 March Another attack on the camp west of Kontha. Direct hits on target area. One aircraft lost. [An additional note adds:] WO Keech (USA) (pilot) and WO Watkins lost when their aircraft exploded during the dive over the target, possibly due to AA fire.
18 March Attack by 21 Vengeances on Jap road block in the Tiddim area. Target indicated by 25-pounder smoke shells. Light AA fire. 70 degree dive through hole in clouds, 12000’ to 7000’, height of target 6000’. One aircraft’s port tank holed.
4 April Raid on Jap occupied airfield of Tamu. Led 36 Vengeances (84, 110 and 7 Sqdns). Very successful. Top cover of 136 Sqdn Spitfires. [A note refers to an operation he didn’t fly on:] 6 April ‘B’ Flight flew into a very bad storm. P/O Gabrielson thrown out of aircraft ‘U’ and landed safely by parachute. He arrived back after 6 days of walking. Aircraft ‘Q’ crashed into mountains. Sgt Dyer received head injuries, and F/Sgt Russell had both arms broken.
8 April Long Range Penetration Group (LRPG) [Chindit] target. 450 mile flight to Mawlu, Irrawaddy. Bombed Jap bunker position overlooking a ‘Wingate’ landing strip [used for landing troops and stores behind enemy lines, by Dakota aircraft]. R/T communication with LRP column and smoke indication used. 12 Vengeances. Extremely successful. Heavy AA fire from Mawlu. [A note adds:] 3rd Indian Division states that bunker positions destroyed. 265 dead Japs counted.
12 April Set course for Agam to bomb Yenan. Recalled by radio because of Jap Army ‘01’ [‘Oscar’] fighters in the vicinity.
15 April AASC target. Led 24 Vengeances on attack on ridge, NE of Imphal. Large number of Japs dug-in. All bombs in target area. [Note adds:] Report from 4 Corps stated that Gurkha troops ‘went-in’ immediately after bombing and occupied the whole area with little opposition. Over 450 dead Japs counted.
22 April 24 Vengeances attack on Jap occupied village of Nigthoughhong, SW of Imphal. All bombs on target. Army trucks seen rushing South as last aircraft pulled out of dive. [Note adds:] British and Gurkha troops attacked immediately after our raid, but had only partial success due to Jap machine gun and anti-tank gun positions dug-in North of the village. Troops suffered over 50% casualties.
26 April Set course to bomb LRPG target at Indaw. Fighter Ops at Imphal diverted us and our fighter escort to the Northwest, and then back to base, because of 50-plus enemy fighters in the Imphal plain. I dived to height of mountain tops (6000’), amongst cumulus clouds, leading two boxes of six in tight formation. Our Hurricane escort was ‘jumped’ by Oscars. (Two Hurricanes damaged.)
8 May 36 Vengeances set course for Kalewa led by 110 Sqdn and escorted by 12 Long-range Hurricanes. I led ‘B’ Flight through bad weather to dumps near Kalewa. 110 and 7 Sqdns turned back, and ‘A ‘ Flight got lost! Heavy AA fire from Kalewa, but excellent bombing carried out. My own bombs hit a petrol or ammo dump and caused a huge explosion. (Fighter escort lost us.)
17 May Attempted to bomb Jap advanced 33 Division HQ located in 600’ mountains South of Bishenpur. Cloud base over whole target area 660’, making bombing impossible. [Note of 22 May says that the monsoon had arrived.]
23 May LRPG target, a boat-building yard, East of Indawgyi lake. 12 Vengeances. Very successful. Total distance 550 miles. Practically whole flight done above 10/10ths cloud.
1, 3, 4 June [Operations aborted due to cloud-cover over the target.]
5 June (LRPG) Attack on about 1000 Japs in the Pagoda at Onsansaing. My 1500 lbs bombs scored a direct hit on the centre of the Pagoda. Light AA fire encountered, probably 20mm, but it stopped when I strafed. I fired 900 rounds during my dive, into the Pagoda and the surrounding area.
26 June [Note made about an attack he didn’t fly on:] Vengeance FD 105 had a hydraulic pipe burst when approaching the target at Tamu. PO Finnie, the pilot, ordered F/O Ellis, gunner, to standby to bale-out. But as both cockpits were filled with ‘smoke’, Ellis evidently misunderstood and baled-out. He was seen to land South-east of Tamu. Finnie flew back to base! [A later note:] Subsequently learned that Jack Ellis had been capture by the Japs, imprisoned, tortured and then killed.
29 June New tactic tried out. Low-level, shallow dive attack on Ya-Nan bridge by 3 Vengeances. Direct hits scored. Bridge breached in two places and centre collapsed. [low-level attack was necessary due to low cloud preventing a normal vertical dive.]
5 July Low-level shallow dive attack on stores and troops at Le-u. 12 Vengeances attacked in flights of three. No.3 (Sgt Natrass) badly damaged by a great explosion – probably land-mine or ammo dump, but he flew back to base. 20mm and 37mm AA fire encountered.
10 July [Flying the squadron’s Spitfire] Weather recce Kalewa area. 10/10ths cloud South of Imphal Valley. Turned Northeast into Kabaw Valley and dived from 11000’ to 4000’. Sighted two ‘Oscar’ IIs, 1500’ above me. Turned into cloud and later sighted one ‘Oscar’. Attacked from behind and saw canon shells strike it. A large part broke-off and the enemy aircraft rolled onto its back and dived vertically into clouds covering the hills. (Claimed as ‘probably destroyed’). [Note adds:] Claim granted by 3rd TAF and Eastern Air Command 12 July ‘44. Oscar later confirmed as definitely destroyed.

Tough days! And even tougher on the Japanese. Arthur said he hated war, but I think these days of aerial warfare counted for the most remarkable of his life.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture359-vengeance-taxi-ing-return-mission.jpg
http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture363-bombs-dropped-japanese-position-tanks-about-roll.jpg

MPN11

23rd May 2016, 08:27

Oh, excellent, NigG ... thanks for your efforts there.

I tentatively post before Danny42C, but I can't help noticing several references to large formations (21, 24, 24, 36). I wait his input with interest.

My eye was also caught by:
"P/O Gabrielson thrown out of aircraft ‘U’ " (I assume from the rear cockpit?)
"... ordered F/O Ellis, gunner, to standby to bale-out."
Given the minimalist armament in the back of the VV, this seems an expensive way of manning it. Would Danny42C elaborate on that aspect, please?

Danny42C

23rd May 2016, 13:10

NigG (your #80),

Thank you for the very interesting extracts from your late Father's Logbook, and your comments on them. Of course this generates still more questions and so ad infinitum..... - but that is the nature of the "crewroom natter" which is the essence of PPRuNe.

So, I start with:
...why it was he signed your log book in late April '43. The Squadron had recently moved down to Ceylon...
But he was certainly still behind in Madhaiganj (Bengal) ! Perhaps there was some very urgent business that had to be wrapped up before he followed them down to Ceylon. We shall never know now (unless it's in the Squadron ORB). Otherwise one of the countless unsolved mysteries of war !
...I appreciate you're busy in the 'Pilot's Brevet' Thread...
We-ll no, not really. It is very quiet now and has slipped into the Slough of Despond (aka Page 2 of "Military Aircrew"), and there is only one stalwart (Walter603) keeping the flag aloft at the moment.
...the somewhat unwelcome task of needing to trawl through and finding a page reference for me to view...
Would be a lot easier if PPRuNe's "Search" facility worked ! Time again it says "sorry, no match" (or words to that effect), I try Google with the same cue words and it does the business, so much so that it's now my first port of call.
...Apologies...
No ! No need ! If you choose to Post on one Thread - or several at a time - you have brought on your own head the task of sorting out the replies you get.
...while the long range ones in support of the Chindits were 2.5 to 3.5 hours...
IMHO, 3 hours is pushing it, and frankly, 3.5 hours is "not on". The sum is simlple: with full bomb load, in formation, and climbing to your target on the way out, you cannot hope for better than 65 (US) galls/hr overall. You have 220 galls (US) on board....Certainly they must have refuelled somewhere on the way home. I never clocked more than 2hrs 20 on any one flight, and any total time over 3 hrs involved a refuel.
...29 February Bomb attack on Jap village of Metkalet. 12 Vengeances. Highly successful. Strafed target with front and rear guns...
It looks as if my doubts over "12 in hand" were not valid ! Perhaps it was a combined effort with 110 - six from each. Strafed with front guns ? Our early experiences on 110 with the front 0.300 US Brownings were dire: they were so unreliable as not to be worth bothering with. (Don't remember ours having ever been harmonised). I only used them once, in the last few moments of a dive on Akyab (yes, after the chap ahead had pulled away !), merely in the hope making any flak gunners keep their heads down rather than on any particular target. Got a bollocking for it as (a) the chances of hitting anything were remote and (b) the Armourers would now have to clean the four guns, they had enough to do, and that was a job they could do without !

The rear (UK) 0.303s were much better: the back seat men loosed off at any opportinity Jap target when we were coming back low over Jap-occupied Burma.
...15 April AASC target. Led 24 Vengeances on attack on ridge, NE of Imphal. Large number of Japs dug-in. All bombs in target area. [Note adds:] Report from 4 Corps stated that Gurkha troops ‘went-in’ immediately after bombing and occupied the whole area with little opposition. Over 450 dead Japs counted...
Setting aside the "24 VVs", which would imply a maximum effort from both Squadrons (or did 7 [IAF] Squadron lend a hand from nearby Uderbund ?); this illustrates the Vengeance doing the job it might have been designed for. Any surviving Jap would be so stunned by noise and blast after the arrival of 96 bombs (some 16 tons of HE), that he would be incapable of putting up much resistance to a Gurkha !
...but I think these days of aerial warfare counted for the most remarkable of his life...
How true ! I should think we all felt that. Of course we were young and impressionable then, but even so those days, often dangerous, sometimes boring and uncomfortable , but always with a sense of purpose, were the high point of many lives. I always thought of my five war years as being the university to which I could never otherwise have aspired.

Too long, already - will continue later,

Danny.

PS: MPN11 (#81),
...My eye was also caught by:
"P/O Gabrielson thrown out of aircraft ‘U’ " (I assume from the rear cockpit?)
"... ordered F/O Ellis, gunner, to standby to bale-out."
Given the minimalist armament in the back of the VV, this seems an expensive way of manning it. Would Danny42C elaborate on that aspect, please?...

Next time, certainly !

Danny.

Danny42C

23rd May 2016, 15:04

MPN11,
...My eye was also caught by:
"P/O Gabrielson thrown out of aircraft ‘U’ " (I assume from the rear cockpit?)
"... ordered F/O Ellis, gunner, to standby to bale-out."
Given the minimalist armament in the back of the VV, this seems an expensive way of manning it. Would Danny42C elaborate on that aspect, please?...
I think we may be mixing up two entries on NigG's #80 here:
...6 April ‘B’ Flight flew into a very bad storm. P/O Gabrielson thrown out of aircraft ‘U’ and landed safely by parachute. He arrived back after 6 days of walking....
and
...26 June [Note made about an attack he didn’t fly on:] Vengeance FD 105 had a hydraulic pipe burst when approaching the target at Tamu. PO Finnie, the pilot, ordered F/O Ellis, gunner, to standby to bale-out. But as both cockpits were filled with ‘smoke’, Ellis evidently misunderstood and baled-out...
As usual, these terse entries beg further questions. In the first place how did Gabrielson come to be "thrown out" ? Not wearing his seat harness ? Incredible !
In the second incident, I would guess the 'smoke' to be a mist (?) of hydraulic oil. Had a problem with the hydraulic plumbing in the cockpit one day, managed to get u/c down at last after some frantic pumping - but everything (inc me) soaked in fluid !

Although extra passengers were carried in the back of VVs from time to time on non-op runs, it was a dangerous business; there was no way of securing them, so they were likely to be injured in the slightest accident; they might (or might not) have parachutes. You would never do it on 'ops'.

And I'd like to take up NigG's
...4 March Another attack on the camp west of Kontha. Direct hits on target area. One aircraft lost. [An additional note adds:] WO Keech (USA) (pilot) and WO Watkins lost when their aircraft exploded during the dive over the target, possibly due to AA fire...
Peter C. Smith "Vengeance !" also has the story (p.123):
...'Curly' Keech flew on another strike.... Keech's plane never pulled out...both kiled instantly... Watkins had a small black and white mongrel called Snaggles with him, as he did on most missions...
Keech "(USA)" - how come ? And here's a dog story again. I simply do not know how this could be done - supposing you wanted to do it at all. How could you secure the animal ? And what about the dive ? The very last thing you would need would be a dog bounding round you while you were trying to concentrate on the dive and pull-out. What did your Boss think of the idea ? And your Flight Commander (he might have you in formation on his wingtip with the pooch licking your face). The mind boggles !

Lots more loose ends, but that will do for the moment,

Danny.

EDIT: FD105 (I've just put it in 'Bold' above) is a Mk.III - th first time I've heard of one on VV ops in Burma - thought all the bombing was done with Is and IIs.

MPN11

23rd May 2016, 19:24

It looks as if my doubts over "12 in hand" were not valid !Seems like it ... perhaps you missed the Balbos? Two dozen plus must have packed quite a punch, if [of course] it was all on one target. To which I think you alluded earlier.

But my other question remains ... Plt Off or Fg Off manning the solitary tail gun? As you noted previously, their utility was limited: so why put officers in charge of a solitary 0.5? Were they doubling up as Navigators, to complement the pilots' implicit skills??

NigG

23rd May 2016, 20:45

I'll get back to you on your (very interesting) points. In the mean time, I've just posted on my profile an Album of Arthur's photos from 84 Squadrons' time over Burma, 1944. Just to give a bit of context to his log book entries quoted above. Not as evocative as the footage 'Vultee Vengeance' on youtube.com, but still worthwhile, I hope.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture357-arthur-vultee-vengeance-over-colombo-ceylon-1943.jpg

Danny42C

23rd May 2016, 21:15

MPN11 (your #84),
...perhaps you missed the Balbos?...
Frankly, yes. All the sorties I flew on 110 were lone sixes, except for the very first (Akyab Jail), where they put six of 82 and six of 110 together, all going to the same place (but as two boxes of six a mile apart - if we had been jumped by 'Oscars', each box would fight its own battle, as it were). All 8 Sqdn trips I flew were just six at a time. Don't think they ever put 12 up.
...Plt Off or Fg Off manning the solitary tail gun? As you noted previously, their utility was limited: so why put officers in charge of a solitary 0.5? Were they doubling up as Navigators, to complement the pilots' implicit skills??...
The make-up of the RAF VV crews was an ad hoc affair dictated by circumstances (cf p.129 #2571 on "Pilot's Brevet"). We pilots had to work with what was there: the ex-Blenheim back-seat men who'd come out in '42 (I don't think there was ever another Nav, Wop/Ag or Ag posted in). The pilots were a mixture of the old Blenheim men who were left in India when the junior ones had gone back to ME with the Blenheims, plus an infusion of brand-new Hurricane and Spitfire pilots, fresh from OTU and green as they come (inc yours truly).
The 0.50 Browning was peculiar to the Mark IV, and we didn't have any of those. All earlier Marks like ours had a twin 0.303 installation and it was pot-luck who came with them - officer or NCO, Nav or Gunner. I was lucky - a Wop/Ag chose me as his pilot ! (Navs were under a bit of a cloud [cf p.132 #2630] - Peter C. Smith tells me this one was KIA later on - so de mortuis nil nisi bonum).

It was all a bit complicated !

Danny.

MPN11

24th May 2016, 08:45

Thanks, Danny42C ... that [sort of] makes sense.

Apologies for the "0.5" error! As I was typing that I had a twinge of doubt, but was too lazy to go and find the forensic thread on the one in Australia!!

Danny42C

24th May 2016, 16:41

NigG,

I make no apology for returning to one of my favourite hobby-horses: the feasability of low and medium level bombing (and strafing) with a Vultee Vengeance.

In my working-up period (Jan-Feb and last half April of '43) on 110, I trained intensively, doing nothing but high-level dives.

We went up to Chittagong on 12 May, operated there in the Arakan for about a week, the rains came, and (although we were on hard standing), went back to West Bengal to sit out the monsoon. During that time, there are two training entries in my log (26 and 26 June): "shallow dives" - and for the life of me I cannot remember anything about these. But they were each logged as "3 dives - 1 Shallow dive", which can only mean that the weather was suitable for high-level training but that each time the one low-level was tacked on just to try it.

110 went up to Khumbirgam on 15 October, we operated there until 13 November, when I was "head-hunted" (no option!) by 8 Sqdn IAF (working-up back in Bengal). They moved up to Double Moorings (in the Arakan) on 12 December; I operated with them there on several strips until 24 February '44, when a mishap removed me from the scene. When I came back in July, the Vengeance story (in Burma) was all over.

"So what's all that to do with the price of eggs ?" Only this: that I never did any low-level dive bombing on any of my 'ops', and certainly none in monsoon conditions. I am not an expert witness ! - and what follows is just my personal opinion.

I note that there are frequent references in your late father's obituary and Peter C. Smith's "Vengeance!" to medium and low-level operational dives being done by 84 (and other) Squadrons during the monsoon period (for of course, in the dry season, you would always go in high, as that was what the Vengeance was designed for, and what it did supremely well). I cannot see how low and medium level could safely or effectively be carried out with a VV in a monsoon.

With that enormous nose (exacerbated by the zero angke of incidence) blocking off your forward vision (USAAC pilots rejected the A-31 [their name] out of hand [PCS] on that account), you would have a poor sight of your target (and, more importantly, of obstacles ahead !) Might not matter so much on the coastal plain of the Arakan, but in the hills of Assam round Khumbirgram, a different story, for dodging round things was not the ponderous Vengeance's strong point. Add in low cloud and pouring rain, and it starts to look distinctly "hairy".

For the same reason, estimating the bomb-release point would be very difficult, as you'd lose sight of your target on the round-out much sooner than (say) a Hurricane, and your accuracy would suffer. All in all, "let the cobbler stick to his last" - the VVs to their vertical high-level dives, and leave the medium and low level bombing to the Beaufighter, Hurricane, and the US Kittihawks and Lockheed P.38 Lightnings we had with us out there.

As for using the VV for "strafing", words fail me ! Even apart from the forward visibility problem, why use a VV (with 4 rifle-calibre unreliable guns and a primitive ring-and-bead sight), when you have Hurricane IICs and Beaufighters with 4 x 20mm cannon and proper (reflector) sights to do the job?

Nevertheless I accept what the references say, and jolly good luck to the crews who did it, say I ! And I promise not to say another word about it !

Danny.

NigG

24th May 2016, 18:55

Danny

(Ref your post 82) Re my father signing your log book: he also had jaundice and had a couple of weeks recuperating at Ooty, maybe around April '43 (?)... you weren't there too were you?

Re maximum possible length of operational flights. Arthur records only one mission at 3 hr 25. Four others were 3 hrs or 3.05. They were with a standard bomb-load of 1500lb. As I said previously, they had to be very careful to conserve fuel... throttle right back and gentle climbing. That long one was in a Vengeance III, the others in V.II or V.III. So possibly that was a factor in pushing the distance.

Re the number of aircraft deployed on ops. A quick flick through the log book indicates that during the period 84 Sqn were in the company of other Vengeance sqns (to about late May '44, when the monsoon arrived) a handful of ops were with 6 aircraft, half of the rest were either with 12 (probably 84 Sqn aircraft) and half were with larger formations of up to 36 aircraft. After the monsoon arrived, 84 were operating alone and most of the ops were with 12 aircraft. On some ops, Arthur neglected to note down the number of aircraft.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture360-flight-stepped-down-box-six.jpg

Ha! Funny that you got a bollocking for firing your forward guns... creating work for the ground crew! The telling-off must have specifically referred to 'wasting ammunition'... otherwise it stretches the imagination a bit far!! Think you might be guilty of making out the reprimand was less justified than it really was?! Though it's slightly in the same vein as Arthur being told-off for shooting down a Jap aircraft... after having exceeded geographical limits. (I thought people were supposed to launch lead at the enemy!)

That's coincidental! You suggest that your 5 war years were the equivalent of gaining a degree. I was thinking precisely the same thing a couple of days ago. The analogy has it's limits of course. Honours degrees don't involve putting your life on the line... and they mostly involve resolving imaginary problems... exercises, projects and so on. You people were dealing with deadly reality in difficult circumstances. That's partly why you are so venerated... you were challenged on behalf of the nation... and you met that challenge with distinction.

(Ref your post 83)

Re Gabrielson being thrown out of his aircraft... 'Scorpion's Sting' elaborates. 'B' Flight flew unwittingly into a cumulo nimbus cloud with it's dangerous up-currents. They were thrown all over the place, Gabrielson ending up suspended on his leash, upside down and half way out of the cockpit. He couldn't get back in and so released the quick-release catch. Happily he had had the foresight to clip his chest parachute to his harness in view of the conditions they were flying in. He landed by parachute in a bamboo thicket. Naga tribesmen (headhunters) found him and took him back to their village. Here he was greeted by a well-armed Ursula Bower, the Naga's 'White Princess'. She was reporting back by radio on Jap movements. He was escorted back to civilisation and thence turned up at Kumbhirigram after 6 days travel, reporting for duty to Arthur, the CO!

Re the death of Keech and Watkins when they blew-up in their dive... I think the dog was Watkins' and he was in the rear, not flying. At a guess, it was a 'lucky mascot' (... that ran out of juice!)... all due respect to the three of them. Also, I don't see my father banning them from carrying the dog, so long as they were happy with their ability to do the job. He was a reasonable (non-domineering) sort of chap and was respected for it, as I understand.

Ref your post 86. Interesting that you went out to India straight from OTU. Arthur was given quite a few of the same when he was reforming 84 Sqn, and took them up in a Harvard to check them over, prior to converting them to the Vengeance. He had been through instructor training at the Central Flying School at the beginning of the war, so he knew what he was about.

MPN11

Ref your post 33. Yes the pilot's crew was a navigator, cum wireless operator, cum air gunner. So he was pulling his weight. Whether he was commissioned or not was neither here nor there. Some heavy bombers had a crew of Sgts and WOs, with a solitary commissioned officer who was merely a gunner, rather than a key player. I think getting a commission had more to do with whether your face fitted, where you went to school, what job you had in civvy street, what your interests were and what school qualifications you had. Also whether your CO thought you suitable for putting forward to the commissioning board: bright enough and sufficiently dependable. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Danny.)

Arthur related that at his commissioning board at the Air ministry, he was interviewed by a panel of 3 officers. He was asked if he went fishing. He replied 'Yes Sir!' To this came the reproach 'So why didn't you join the Navy rather than the Air force?' Arthur laughed and made a quip about trailing a fishing line off the back of a battle ship. He got through. Of course, it's a different procedure today... officer candidates are rigorously tested.

Did you get to see the album of photos?... click on 'NigG'

MPN11

24th May 2016, 19:36

@ NigG ... no issue with the crewing issues at all! It just seemed a little unusual in this context, as opposed to the more complex scenario over Germany, in the dark, where the AG's skills were more than a little bit critical!

As to Commissioning Boards, there's a Thread in its own right!! :D
On my 4th visit to OASC*, the Board Chairman said [looking at a very fat file] "Ah, Mr MPN11, I see you've been here before." :)

* For a variety of reasons, Air Training Corps, RN and RAF, I must add :)

Danny42C

24th May 2016, 21:10

NigG (your #89),
...Did you get to see the album of photos?... click on 'NigG'...
I am a prize dunce at this IT business (you can teach an old dog new tricks, but not very many, and he is a slow learner). Tried it (more in hope than any expectation). Hallelujah - it worked. Nice pics. Note many of them have been used by P.C.S. in "Vengeance!". Lucky devil to get a Jeep.

So many bells rung and hares started with your Post that will take me ages to do it justice. Leave it for tonight, I think.

Danny.

savimosh01

25th May 2016, 20:13

Readers of this forum in 2012 may not recall that I wrote it was not Reg Duncan who had a bomb hung up, with the Vengeance exploding on landing. I did write the names of the unfortunate pilot and navigator (wasn't Paddy). (I deleted my posts.) My father was a navigator with 110 in Burma and flew with Tubby Robinson. I was a friend of Reg Duncan who passed away six years ago, a friend of Rodney Topley's son John Topley who passed a few years ago and remain friends with Reg's navigator Bob Harvey and another navigator, Jim "Jock" Galbraith. I've recently met the daughter of Eric Baldwin who flew some of his ops with Arthur Gill.

NigG

26th May 2016, 17:34

Danny

Ref your post 88, in which you explain your doubts about the viability of low-level bombing with the Vengeance. I'm not a pilot, let alone ex-Vengeance pilot, so I have to be careful not to be too opinionated. Suffice it to say, that while the size of the Vengeance's nose would undoubtedly obstruct the view of the target if the aircraft was flying straight and level, that wouldn't be the case if it dived directly at it, with a straight run. The yellow sighting line could have been used, much as it was during a vertical dive. The tricky bit, presumably, would be the timing of the pull-out and the timing of bomb release. If the bombs were released too early or too late, they obviously would have fallen short or long. So perhaps that critical timing was what 84 Squadron perfected. Looking at Arthur's log book, he mentions trying out the 'new tactic' low-level dive on 29 June '44... citing direct hits on a bridge. There are then a further ten bombing missions, nine of which are low-level, only one is vertical. The results are described as 'accurate', 'very accurate' or 'excellent'. So it seems they were doing something right. Presumably all conventional low-level dive bombers had the problem of aligning the aircraft with the target and releasing the bombs at the right moment. Admittedly these aircraft didn't have the low angle of incidence that caused the Vengeance to 'hang off it's propeller', so maybe they had more time in which align their sights. But perhaps Arthur picked up some useful ideas from these flyers... if he wasn't already on top of the subject.

Re strafing the target, you suggest that 20mm cannon would have been more effective than .303 ball. That's the old debate, isn't it? Cannon with longer-range and punch, .303 with lots more nasty little bits of metal in the air. I daresay that strafing by Vengeances was pretty satisfying for the pilot and gunner, and there was the hope that some of the rounds would find a worthwhile target. As quoted earlier, Arthur did note in his log book that on one occasion AA fire stopped after he strafed during his bombing dive. I think you mentioned that you also strafed with the intention of suppressing AA fire (but got told-off for it!). Anyway... just some guess-work, on my part... can't resist a good debate! :)

Savimosh

Must have been interesting to chat to these noble players. Would have been interesting to know if my father knew Eric Baldwin or if they shared common memories. Too late to quiz him now, alas. Baldwin served with 110, presumably.

Danny42C

26th May 2016, 18:03

Savimosh01 (your #92),

Yes, I remember your Posts in 2012 about this strange business. You'll remember that I Edited my Post ("Pilot's Brevet" p.134 #2680) with the information that a search of the CWGC showed that there was no war grave in Burma (now Myanmar) in the name of a F/O Reg Duncan (RCAF): bodies would certainly not have been repatriated at that time: it is conclusive that the victim was not Reg. This weird (and inexcusable) rumour did gain currency, though - for it was widely believed at the time.

I flew with F/O Baldwin behind me once on 8.5.43. on a training exercise. Reg Duncan took me (in the back seat) on 5.1.43. for my first 20 minute ride in a VV. Thereafter, I was considered fully trained on type - having on 9.1.43. incautiously put my name to a slip in my logbook reading: "I hereby certify I understand the HYDRAULIC, FUEL and OIL systems of the Vultee Vengeance Aircraft". They took a lot on trust !

Danny.

Danny42C

26th May 2016, 21:13

NigG,

Have been Indisposed for a bit and so off line. Bit of catching up to do.

(your #89),
...Re my father signing your log book: he also had jaundice and had a couple of weeks recuperating at Ooty, maybe around April '43 (?)... you weren't there too were you?...
Jaundice was a common sequel of malaria (he probably got that, too). By coincidence, I got them both in March, 1943. Now "Ooty" (Ootacamund) was a Hill Station in S.India, it would make sense for him to recuperate there on his way down to Ceylon. Flew over the place a few times, but was never there. With malaria and/or jaundice, he would be stuck at Madhaiganj until he was fit to travel, 84 would have had to go with the 2i/c.
...The maximum possible length of operational flights. Arthur records only one mission at 3 hr 25. Four others were 3 hrs or 3.05. They were with a standard bomb-load of 1500lb. As I said previously, they had to be very careful to conserve fuel... throttle right back and gentle climbing. That long one was in a Vengeance III...
Don't know how he did it, There was no extra tankage in a Mark III. "Throttle right back" - it wouldn't climb at all !
...half were with larger formations of up to 36 aircraft...
Could they have had three Squadrons there together (45, 84 and 110 ?) Possibly. Even so, would have needed a truly maximum effort. After my time there, anyway.
..(I thought people were supposed to launch lead at the enemy!)..
They used to be. Listen to this true story, which I've put in several times on this Forum, and tell me what you think.(Reported by Daily Telegraph 9.1.15):
..."The pair have said that one of their proudest moments to date involved helping to foil a rocket" [RPG ?] "attack on their base at Kandahar airfield in 2010. There was a high threat and the base was expecting an imminent attack after some men were spotted in a nearby ditch, setting up to fire a rocket at their accommodation block. They took the aircraft out to 15 miles from their position in the ditch and came down to low level, approaching at more than 500mph and as close to the Operational Low Flying minimum of 100 feet as possible, passing directly over them before heading into a steep climb. The rocket crew immediately scarpered in a truck and the pair felt they had made a tangible difference to protect their colleagues. The intention is to always use the minimum force required to provide the effect needed by the guys on the ground"...
Am I missing something here ? This was in 2010, and there was a war going on in Afghanistan (as we have 453 good reasons to remember). This is the enemy, and he is making ready to kill you (or some of your comrades) if he can. You are airborne in one of the RAF's most powerful weapons. You have a 27mm cannon. You buzz him off (as I used to shift a flock of goats off my strip before landing). So that he can come back later and try again ? (Better luck next time ?)
...That's partly why you are so venerated... you were challenged on behalf of the nation... and you met that challenge with distinction...
Very nice of you to say so, but as the D.Tel. obituarist said a year or so "They were just ordinary men who did extraorinary things". It was just our luck to be around at the time - your generation would have done just as well if the need had arisen.
...Gabrielson ending up suspended on his leash, upside down and half way out of the cockpit. He couldn't get back in and so released the quick-release catch. Happily he had had the foresight to clip his chest parachute to his harness...
This puzzles me. On the few occasions I rode in the back seat of a VV, I remenber I had a bucket seat with a pilot's parachute and four-point harness (same as in front). And see Vlad's marvellous bit of film on Chugalug's Post on "Pilot's Brevet", p.129 # 2561. At 0.33, you can clearly see two pilot's chutes going aboard. "Clip his chest parachute" ?
...Here he was greeted by a well-armed Ursula Bower, the Naga's 'White Princess'...
Wonderful story, which I had never heard before. And they gave her only an MBE !!!
...Re the death of Keech and Watkins when they blew-up in their dive... I think the dog was Watkins' and he was in the rear, not flying...
But if he had to use his guns, the dog would be just as much a nuisance.
...He got through. Of course, it's a different procedure today... officer candidates are rigorously tested...
My procedure was a much more relaxed affair (I'm happy to say) !

Danny.

PS: Will have a look at your interesting #93 later.

D.

Danny42C

27th May 2016, 11:28

NigG (your #93),
... The results are described as 'accurate', 'very accurate' or 'excellent'. So it seems they were doing something right...
Well that's all that counts ! My cavils are purely theoretical, having only tried it a couple of times in early training, and can't remember what happened. And the Vlad You tube Posted by Chugalug clearly shows the IAF doing it (at OTU ?), including a pair in formation with dive brakes out in a 45° dive.

Would still be risky business in hilly country in monsoon conditions !
...Re strafing the target, you suggest that 20mm cannon would have been more effective than .303 ball. That's the old debate, isn't it? Cannon with longer-range and punch, .303 with lots more nasty little bits of metal in the air...
I'd think that you'd only use cannon on an identified, worth while target. You could spray 0.300 or 0.303 more or less "on spec".
...... can't resist a good debate!...
Treat in store. With my Irish ancestry, can "talk the hind leg off a donkey !" (or so I'm told).
...Baldwin served with 110, presumably...
Yes, flew with him once when 110 was working up to go forward in early '43.. Must have been on "A" Flight, but cannot put a face to the name.

Danny.

NigG

27th May 2016, 19:16

NigG

27th May 2016, 19:30

NigG (your #93),
Treat in store. With my Irish ancestry, can "talk the hind leg off a donkey !" (or so I'm told).

Ha! That explains it. Your writing is amazing for a 94-year-old. You are way ahead of my parents... my mother's your age. There was a programme on TV about dementia recently. They were stressing the importance of 'use it or lose it'... being chatty, your brain cells have been well-exercised all your life. Interesting and remarkable! :ok:

MPN11

27th May 2016, 19:32

NigG ... things got better when he moved on from driving aeroplanes to controlling them ... that's when the brain-cells get some good exercise* :)

* That's my excuse, anyway!

PS. My father was Royal Artillery (AA) during WW2, so presumably they just shot at anything that moved in their sector (SE UK, a fairly safe war for Daddy)

NigG

27th May 2016, 20:45

A small technical question about the meaning of 'practicing a forced landing'. Does that mean you cut your engine and then land without power? Also does it imply that the landing will be rough?

The reason I ask is that my father's first log book has just turned up. I had really wanted to get my hands on it, but had supposed it was lost. It logs his early, pre-war flying when he was in the RAF(VR). One of Arthur's stories was that he flew for the cameras in the film 'It's in the Air', starring George Formby, in 1938. I was skeptical, because when he supposedly did it he hadn't yet quite qualified for his 'Wings'. He said that the company that ran the VR flying training asked him to fly for a re-shoot by the camera, as Ealing Studios weren't entirely happy with the first takes, which had been flown by one of the instructors. So it was really interesting to see the log book and check if Arthur was 'shooting a line' or telling the truth.

Hey presto, July '38 he makes a flight in Audax K8334 in which he practices aerobatics, spins, steep turns, climbing turns and a forced landing. Well, I looked at the movie and, sure enough, K8334 features in scenes on the ground and in a very rough landing. The movie script has Formby flying the aircraft without knowing how to fly, so that 'rough landing' is his horrible touch-down after a hair-raising flight all over the sky.

So I'm wondering if a landing featuring a side slip close to the ground, followed by a great bounce back into the air before settling, would be consistent with it being a 'practice forced landing', as recorded in his log book.

In the log book he makes no mention of flying for the cameras... though no where else does he make 'comments' in the margin, except for one forced landing. So it's possible that this was just a practice session, not a movie shoot, as he was just a week away from his final test prior to being awarded his 'Wings'. (Though that final test was in a Hart and this practice was in an Audax.)

The film was launched two months after this flight, which, assuming the studio had a fast 'turn-around' time, fits with Arthur's log book entry. So I'm interested to know if anyone can make a better guess than I can... is it reasonable to assume that this flight was made for the benefit of the movie... or was it just a standard practice flight?

I should add that the aerobatics in the movie is both very skillful and at least some of it is in an aircraft with a different set of lettering, so maybe Ealing Studios decided to use the original footage, that the instructor flew for, but used Arthur's bumpy landing also. Bit of a tricky question... but I'd be interested if anyone has an opinion. :confused:

Danny42C

27th May 2016, 20:54

NigG and MPN11 (your #88 and #89),
...There was a programme on TV about dementia recently. They were stressing the importance of 'use it or lose it'... being chatty, your brain cells have been well-exercised all your life.

Interesting and remarkable!...
Stands to reason. I think your brain atrophies with disuse, like all the other organs of your body. Since getting on line in the summer of 2011, I'm sure I've benefited immensely in that respect. I have a theory (all right, a conjecture !), that if all who reach pensionable age without having already joined the ranks of the "silver surfers" were provided with a basic computer (and compelled, as a condition of receiving their State pensions, to pass a simple course of instruction in how to use it), the incidence of late Alzheimers could be much reduced and a great deal of misery (and money) saved. And many "declining years" greatly enriched.

This could not solve the problem of the early onsets, admittedly, and in any case the requirement would die out in a generation or two, as all modern children appear to be born with a built-in degree in IT !
... things got better when he moved on from driving aeroplanes to controlling them ...that's when the brain-cells get some good exercise...
Many a true word is spoken in jest ! "Driving aeroplanes" is, basically, really just a physical skill, like playing a piano or riding a bike. You learn it, it becomes automatic and "you never forget ". Some people take to it like a duck to water, some will never be able to do it, but most can do so (given time). Of course it involves a great deal of brainwork, but that is incidental to the core physical control of an aircraft.

As for ATC, it may not exactly be "a high-speed three-dimensional game of chess", but you need your wits about you all the time.

(Tongue in cheek),

Danny.

MPN11

28th May 2016, 10:10

I defer to those with extensive flying experience on whether it is, indeed, just a physical skill. I draw a strong distinction between the 'simple' mechanics of making an aircraft go "up diddley up" etc and the actual 'operation' of the aircraft in whatever role it may be. I have always thought the latter aspect was what really constituted 'flying' ... e.g. leading a Harrier 4-ship at low level in sh1t weather to strike a target, where the stick/rudder bit is a subliminal adjunct to all the planning, navigation, threat analysis, target acquisition, weapon aiming/firing, defensive manoeuvring and getting the formation home again in one piece.

As to ATC, I have oft described it as something of an art form rather than a mechanical skill. You can be taught the basic procedures [see previous para] but unless you are wired in a certain way you can never hope to be fully effective in that 4-dimensional game. I do believe that controllers perceive things slightly differently, in a time/space context.

Danny42C

28th May 2016, 10:57

MPN11,
...where the stick/rudder bit is a subliminal adjunct to all the planning, navigation, ........
Exactly so ! As it was put to us during the war: "We will teach you to fly an aircraft up to Wings standard. From OTU onward, you will learn to use a particular aircraft (of our choice) as a weapon in which to kill or be killed". As you rightly say, the simple (well, most of the time !) task of handling the thing is but a "subliminal adjunct" to the main duty.

Four Dimensions (inc Time ?) - I had enough trouble with three !,

Danny

MPN11

28th May 2016, 11:20

Four Dimensions (inc Time ?) - I had enough trouble with three !Ah, it's an Area Radar thing, of course, and essential when interacting with civil ATC.

In the Joint Civ/Mil Ops room at LATCC, 'they' were doing everything with flight strips [with times] augmented by radar. So if I had Mil traffic crossing the mayhem of the SouthEast corner of the UK FIR, I needed at least a rough estimate for [say] crossing Red 1 at Clacton. Fortunately, the average Mil jet cruised at about the same speed, and conveniently [on our big flat-top radar displays] the standard chinagraph pencil represented about 5 minutes flying time ... et voila!

Images HERE (https://atchistory.wordpress.com/2016/05/23/latcc-west-drayton-mid-to-late-1970s-mediator-stage-12-and-stage-1/)at LWD24 and LWD25 ... and lots for me to read, having discovered that website!! :cool:

olympus

28th May 2016, 16:24

Seeing the mention of W/Cdr Jeudwine in earlier posts reminded me that I had a copy of his biography 'Global Warrior' in my pile of 'books to read'. Have now read it; a really interesting story of an unusual officer who chose to lead his men rather than drive them, as his superiors appear to have preferred. Wing Commander Gill writes a very generous Foreward to the book which clearly sets out the criteria for inclusion in the crew of the 'Scorpion'.

Would anyone have any idea how big 'Scorpion' was? Certainly big enough to have the crew divided into two 'watches' and carry what sounds like a substantial quantity of rations (including beer!)

Highly recommend 'Global Warrior'.

NigG

29th May 2016, 11:02

Would anyone have any idea how big 'Scorpion' was? Certainly big enough to have the crew divided into two 'watches' and carry what sounds like a substantial quantity of rations (including beer!)

Highly recommend 'Global Warrior'.

Page 40 of Global Warrior says the boat (that Jeudwine and his colleagues escaped in from Java to Australia... 900 miles) was 30' long, a lifeboat from a liner. So I guess the floor was about the length of four men, lying head to toe. Not big, hence the decision to take a crew of 13 on the trip to Australia.

Now that I have the book in front of me, I can clear-up some discussion/speculation that was made in the earliest pages of this Thread. It was proposed that the aircrew turfed the groundstaff out of their boat and grabbed it to make their escape, leaving the groundstaff to their fate. That's a horrible slander!

The Japs were in the process of invading Java. Jeudwine and his party of 84 Sqn personnel began their escape at midnight from Tjilatjap harbour with two lifeboats, being towed by a launch. There were 30 members of the squadron in each lifeboat plus 5 in the launch. Jeudwine was one of only two who knew how to sail, the other one was Plt Off Streatfield who skippered the second lifeboat. The launch's engine broke down after two hours and the lifeboat sails were tried out, but these didn't perform as the boats were so over-loaded. So they rowed to a nearby island, a lifeboat now towing the launch. Jeudwine anchored his boat off-shore. Streatfeild reckoned he could see a passage through the reefs to get to shore, but when trying it, the surf picked up the launch and lifeboat, tearing out their hulls on the rocks. Everyone swam ashore and salvaged the stores from the two wrecks.

Jeudwine decided that the best plan was to take the surviving boat with a crew of 13, leaving everyone else to hide ashore for two months and await the arrival of a submarine that would be sent from Australia. He selected his crew, choosing those with useful skills, most being Australians as they had a chance to get home. He hoped it would take 16 days to get from Java to Australia... it took 6 weeks. They had to ration their limited supplies of food and drink, and these became tighter when cans were found to have been spoilt through corrosion. They met with storms and days of calm under the baking sun. Repeatedly repairs to the rudder failed and it broke away from the boat. The most worrying moment was when a Japanese submarine surfaced nearby, the captain surveying them through his binoculars, with the vessels guns being trained on them. Mercifully, he had no blood lust for Westerners and he went on his way. Throughout, morale never seriously faltered, thanks to Jeudwine.

The shore party, left behind, hung-on for six weeks and then got in touch with local Dutchmen (Java being a Dutch colony). They gave them a meal at the local jail, then handed them over to the Japanese. After which they had three and a half years as POWs, roughly a third of them dying in the process. The submarine, sent from Australia, of course found no trace of them at the beach.

As you say, Olympus, 'Global Warrior' is a very worthwhile read. I guess it can be bought, or ordered via an inter-library loan. ISBN 0-9536418-0-5

Danny42C

29th May 2016, 11:40

MPN11 (your #104),
...the standard chinagraph pencil represented about 5 minutes flying time ... et voila!..
Recalls my method of navigation round the Indian subcontinent 70+ years ago - only I used the end of my thumb-joint (represented 8 miles run on the map in use). Never failed ! (and you couldn't leave it behind).
...Images HERE at LWD24 and LWD25 ... and lots for me to read, having discovered that website!! ...
Looked the pics, thought: "there but for the grace of God......."

Danny.

Danny42C

29th May 2016, 12:13

NigG (your #106),
...That's a horrible slander!...
As I said in my #30: "I do not believe this for one moment, and I hope nobody else will".
...Jeudwine was one of only two who knew how to sail...
Recalls the lifeboats after the sinking of the "Titanic", where Third(?) Officer Lightoller was (I recall reading): "the only seaman of the lot", and got a sail up on his boat.
...The shore party, left behind, hung-on for six weeks...
Would be interesting to know how they survived.

A fascinating story, indeed,

Danny.

savimosh01

29th May 2016, 18:02

Yes, NigG, all those I mentioned served with 110. Will PM you.

NigG

30th May 2016, 19:37

NigG (your #106),

As I said in my #30: "I do not believe this for one moment, and I hope nobody else will".

Yes I noticed you wrote that, even though you hadn't heard of the story. That's interesting in itself... you were around in that period, knew the type of people, knew how morale was and had a clear idea of what sort of behaviour would be deemed to be beyond the limits. These were experienced, well-trained, principled people. It's unthinkable that they would steal a boat from others in order to make themselves safe. It's also impressive to read how hard 84 Sqn aircrew were working in the aerial fight against the invading Japs. These were quality people... ground staff too. Members of the ground staff were seen fighting with the Japs as they over-ran the airfield in Java... and forfeited their lives in the process.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture316-ground-crew.jpg

Danny42C

30th May 2016, 20:02

NigG,

Yes, it must have been a horrendous business. I was fortunate as I landed in India after the situation had stabilised the previous year, and everything West of Chittagong was more or less "normal".
...knew the type of people, knew how morale was and had a clear idea of what sort of behaviour would be deemed to be beyond the limits...
It would be deemed to be beyond the limits today, I hope !

Danny.

NigG

30th May 2016, 20:08

I've come across a couple of stories that illustrate the pastoral side of Arthur's job when he was 84 Sqn commander in India.

He was once petitioned by a very agitated Corporal. The man had written to both his girlfriend and to his wife and put the respective letters in the wrong envelope. Neither the girlfriend nor the wife knew about the other and the Corporal was certain that his wife would go berserk if she knew about his infidelity. Arthur immediately went in pursuit of the letters, first at unit level then at the Forces Post Office, Calcutta. Unfortunately it was too late. He noted that the Corporal survived the Burma campaign, but rather doubted whether he could have survived his return to the UK!

Despite his gentlemanly disposition, Arthur was in favour of new members of 84 Squadron undergoing an initiation ceremony. The idea being that a bit of collective fun would help the newly-formed unit to gel together... and the new-comer would get the idea that he had joined a 'Squadron with a difference'. An uproarious party would be thrown, at which the costumed ‘Mayor of Shaibah’ would welcome the newcomer, who would then have to kiss the lipsticked ‘Lady Mayoress’. All would sing the ‘Shaibah Blues’, and other ribald songs, the newcomer having the opportunity to demonstrate his talents by singing a verse unaccompanied!

There was insufficient alcohol available for one such party, the beer ration being meager. So Arthur sent an aircraft to pick-up extra supplies from Dumdum. These cases of ‘Lilly’s Gin’ went down well at the party. However, the next day, a third of the squadron’s personnel discovered they were either fully or partially blind... and the squadron was certainly no longer 'operational'. Out of his depth, the Medical Officer consulted an Indian physician who identified the drink as being made from the Tari palm – otherwise known as a local brew called 'Toddy'. After 48 hours the ill-effects wore-off, greatly to Arthur’s relief!

Danny42C

30th May 2016, 22:09

NigG,
...The idea being that a bit of collective fun would help the newly-formed unit to gel together... and the new-comer would get the idea that he had joined a 'Squadron with a difference'...
So the Squadron sent an aircraft up to Dum-Dum for the hooch. Prudent enquiry there would have revealed that there would be no imported genuine gin left (or at least none for sale), but that the Calcutta British firm of Carew's * made a drinkable substitute (and also a "Rosa" rum), available all over the subcontinent. All other locally produced spirits were to be avoided like the plague (including Lilliy's Gin !), only to be used (in place of unobtainable meths) to fire up pressure kerosene lamps and the like. They were lucky the stuff didn't kill anyone !

Don't know where they got any beer from, no "India Pale Ale" or the like came out from UK now of course. There was beer brewed at some Hill Stations ("Murree" was one) but the stuff wouldn't travel.

All in all, my introduction to 110 Squadron was a far more gentle affair, I'm happy to say !

Note *: Googled, still in business out there (now part of United Spirits Ltd).

Danny.

NigG

31st May 2016, 19:30

NigG,

So the Squadron sent an aircraft up to Dum-Dum for the hooch. Prudent enquiry there would have revealed that there would be no imported genuine gin left (or at least none for sale), but that the Calcutta British firm of Carew's * made a drinkable substitute (and also a "Rosa" rum), available all over the subcontinent. All other locally produced spirits were to be avoided like the plague (including Lilliy's Gin !), only to be used (in place of unobtainable meths) to fire up pressure kerosene lamps and the like. They were lucky the stuff didn't kill anyone !

Don't know where they got any beer from, no "India Pale Ale" or the like came out from UK now of course. There was beer brewed at some Hill Stations ("Murree" was one) but the stuff wouldn't travel.

All in all, my introduction to 110 Squadron was a far more gentle affair, I'm happy to say !

Note *: Googled, still in business out there (now part of United Spirits Ltd).

Danny.

Ha! It's obvious you were an authority on matters of drink! Too bad you weren't on strength at 84. I think the incident occurred soon after the squadron moved from the West (Quetta) to the East of India (Vizagapatam). Since Quetta is in modern day Pakisthan, it can be imagined that there wasn't a lot of local hooch around... thus 84 would have arrived in the East with a measure of alcaholic ignorance. But yes, I know from my own experience of the region how lethal local brews can be... instant headache, desperate hangover!

Danny42C

1st Jun 2016, 13:17

NigG,
...Since Quetta is in modern day Pakistan, it can be imagined that there wasn't a lot of local hooch around...
Can't speak for modern day Pakistan: if you flaunt the stuff in public now I suppose you run the risk of stoning, flogging or beheading, but as their armed services there follow (as I'm told) inherited British customs to the n th degree, I hardly think the President would be toasted in lemonade or CocaCola on Guest Nights!

Then all was part of British India and a more liberal spirit prevailed. Chota and Burra Pegs were part of the social scene, and a "Collins" or two at sundown slaked the thirst as well as improving one's view on life.

Beer ? Quetta was 4,000 ft amsl - almost a Hill Station - and theoretically should have been able to brew beer. After all, if you want to distil hooch, you must start with a fermented liquor, and what is beer, after all ?
...It's obvious you were an authority on matters of drink!...
Gained a little inside knowledge by force of circumstance. Mess Secretary at Cholaveram (Pilot's Brevet: p.151 #3011), Bar Officer (all right, "Wines Member") at Thornaby (ibid p.189 #3765). 13+ years (after retirement from RAF) with H.M.C&E as VAT inspector, specialised in parting errant publicans from their ill-gotten (VAT) gains.

It was a living.

Danny.

NigG

1st Jun 2016, 17:33

NigG,

their armed services there follow (as I'm told) inherited British customs to the n th degree, I hardly think the President would be toasted in lemonade or CocaCola on Guest Nights

Ha!... the mind boggles. But not Lilly's Gin hooch, either.

Gained a little inside knowledge by force of circumstance. Mess Secretary at Cholaveram (Pilot's Brevet: p.151 #3011), Bar Officer (all right, "Wines Member") at Thornaby (ibid p.189 #3765). 13+ years (after retirement from RAF) with H.M.C&E as VAT inspector, specialised in parting errant publicans from their ill-gotten (VAT) gains. It was a living.
Danny... I wonder if you've resolved the mystery of why Arthur signed your log book. 84 Sqn were at Cholavaram 13 Jan to 8 Apr 1943... prior to moving down to Ceylon. Arthur could have been back to Cholavaram for some reason. His log book shows an air display at St Thomas Mount (not far away) 1 Apr '43, otherwise there's no flying shown for April... you thought your log book was signed late April '43 by Arthur... although you said you were up in Bengal when he signed it. Just a thought. Also there's another coincidence. Arthur worked for HP Bulmer after he retired and built-up/oversaw their licenced premises. I do hope he didn't run foul of you. :uhoh:

Danny42C

1st Jun 2016, 20:32

Nig G,
... I wonder if you've resolved the mystery of why Arthur signed your log book...
No, not really. My last flying entry in April '43 was on 30th. So he could not have signed before that - but we do not know how long after that (the certifying officers do not date their signatures). That much is certain. Flt Lt Don Ritchie (Acting CO) signs at the end of May, so he was probably far away by then.

I was at Madhaiganj (W.Bengal) the whole time (that is a fact, too).
...His log book shows an air display at St Thomas Mount (not far away) [Madras] 1 Apr '43, otherwise there's no flying shown for April...
Q: Where was he in the April ? Clearly he was up in Madhaiganj at the end of the month, but why ?

I think we'll never know the answer now. Best forget it.
...Arthur worked for HP Bulmer after he retired and built-up/oversaw their licenced premises. I do hope he didn't run foul of you...
No, we were territorial animals. H.P.Bulmers is in Hereford: my patch was East Cleveland and the North York Moors (some nice cosy pubs up there !)

Danny.

NigG

3rd Jun 2016, 22:00

Nig G,

No, not really. My last flying entry in April '43 was on 30th. So he could not have signed before that - but we do not know how long after that (the certifying officers do not date their signatures). That much is certain. Flt Lt Don Ritchie (Acting CO) signs at the end of May, so he was probably far away by then.

I was at Madhaiganj (W.Bengal) the whole time (that is a fact, too).

Q: Where was he in the April ? Clearly he was up in Madhaiganj at the end of the month, but why ?

I think we'll never know the answer now. Best forget it.

I was about to agree with you, Danny, that it's all an insurmountable mystery, and the signing of a logbook is a trivial matter anyway... and best that we follow your proposal and knock the matter on the head.

However! I've been in communication with Savimosh, who, of course has written a book on the history of 110 Sqn, and whose Dad was a Nav/WopAG with them, flying Vengeances. Anyway, she came up with some dates from the logbook of someone else in 110 Sqn that indicated that he flew with 'Sqn Ldr Gill' on certain dates. I checked these against Arthur Gill's logbook and they didn't tally. :confused:

In the meantime Savimosh, back in Canada, was apparently relaxing with a glass of wine and mulling things over. She got out the book she'd written on 110 Sqn and checked the period in question. Lo and behold... there was a Sqn Ldr J G Gill who was CO of 110 Sqn from 5 Feb to 20 Sep '43. Thus we have Sqn Ldr A M Gill (my father) commanding 84 Sqn, and Sqn Ldr J G Gill commanding 110 Sqn! Both men in India at the same time and commanding squadrons equipped with the Vengeance... bit of a coincidence, of course. :ooh:

You said your log book was signed by Sqn Ldr Gill in late April '43... so the big question is.... was this J G Gill or A M Gill? If initials aren't shown, then note that my father's writing was neat and quite elegant. I confess I'm utterly on tenterhooks... trivial though the matter might be! :)

Danny42C

4th Jun 2016, 09:44

NigG,

Shot up bolt upright when I read your #118.
...You said your log book was signed by Sqn Ldr Gill in late April '43... so the big question is.... was this J G Gill or A M Gill? If initials aren't shown, then note that my father's writing was neat and quite elegant. I confess I'm utterly on tenterhooks... trivial though the matter might be!...
Not trivial ! Dragged logbook off shelf and checked. Signature is anything but "neat and quite elegant" - a real "doctor's signature", in fact. Oh why can't I learn to scan and paste ! The "Gill" is readable enough, but it is preceded by a sloping, oval loop, which is far more likely to represent a "J" rather than a "A", and certainly not an "M". My own signature (in those days) commenced with a "J" flourish, and it is not unlike a smaller version of that.

Will PM you shortly with a request on this subject.

How could we have got a new CO and I not remember it ? My only excuse is that they came and went with bewildering rapidity. In my log, I have in succesive months from January '43: R.C. Lindrell (?) Flt Lt for...; R.C. Topley Flt Lt for...; ?. Gill; D.J. Ritchie Flt Lt for...; J.D. Hedley F/O (!) for...; R.C. Topley (again); R.C. Topley (again); and again; and again; and lastly R.F. Penny in mid November (when I went across to 8 IAF).

But I know there was a Sqn Ldr Lambert in February (?), for it was he who put me up for my Commission. Presumably he didn't stay long enough to sign anybody's log book (or couldn't be bothered !) And a newly joined Sergeant has little interest in the CO's office, apart from keeping well out of it, for a summons usually bodes no good..

Cheers, Danny.

NigG

5th Jun 2016, 18:24

Danny

Ha! Yes, I have a grim memory of the CO's office in Minden. I and one other, marched in front of his desk, the night before having 'settled' a spot of 'difference', outside on the lawn, during a Mess night. (Still have the scar). The (alcaholic) pugnacity of youth ...'nough said! :ouch:

Excellent, Danny... the mystery of the 'Gill' signature, now happily resolved, and closed. Quite an extraordinary coincidence, I have to say. :ok:

By the way, I've been through earlier pages of this Thread, page 2 onwards, and added a photo where it gives context to my Post. Makes the Thread a bit more engaging for anyone who might want to read it through from scratch. Some are photos you won't have seen before... including one of my father in more recent years (page 3).

NigG

5th Jun 2016, 19:27

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture346-shackleton-one-many-aircraft-flown-arthur-while-co-23-mu-aldergrove-northern-ireland-1956-8.jpg

Arthur's last flying job was at RAF Aldergrove, Northern Ireland, in 1956-8. As CO of 23 Maintenance Unit, he test-flew an impressive assortment of aircraft, including the Javelin, Swift, Hunter and Canberra. One of the many piston-engine aircraft was the Shackleton. He had a couple of little 'asides' about flying it.

In his log books, assessments of his flying ability were invariably either 'Above the average' or 'Exceptional'. On his first attempt at landing the Shackleton, the Wing Commander Flying was watching, with a beady eye, from the Control Tower. Instead of making a normal, long and gentle approach, Arthur came in to land after an unusually low-level tight turn. Afterwards, the WCF observed: ‘That was a frightening split-arse turn… but a beautiful touch-down!’ ('Spilt-arse', I guess, is RAF slang?.. although the physiological implications imply Formula One?)

On one occasion, the technical staff needed a special wrench to remove the airscrews from a Washington. One of the US bases in England had one available, so he took a Shackleton over the Irish Sea to pick it up. Before he left he offered any airmen who were about to go on leave, a lift in the aeroplane as an alternative to making the long sea-ferry crossing. When he and his crew arrived at the aircraft he found, to his surprise, a small crowd of airmen and women, together with their baggage, waiting to climb on board. This, of course, was a maritime patrol not a passenger airplane. Quite how they all got in was never established, but on arrival, Arthur called ahead to the American airbase to arrange transport for his human cargo. The Americans laid on a bus and the contorted mass was, no doubt, much relieved to get to the railway station!

savimosh01

5th Jun 2016, 19:52

I've just read the entire thread about Arthur Gill. I'm fascinated by your father's story, Nigel. Thank you so much for sharing it in such detail along with some of his collection of photographs, which are absolutely outstanding!

I find this quote from Peter C Smith's "Jungle Dive Bombers at War" quite moving:

"Number 84 Squadron was scheduled to convert to Mosquitos but Gill's own last flight in the Vengeance took place on 25 September 1944. He was posted home and flew FB981 from Samungli, Quetta, to Lahore, escorted for part of the way by a flight of Vengeances from the unit which he had first preserved, then led so well."

NigG

5th Jun 2016, 20:21

I find this quote from Peter C Smith's "Jungle Dive Bombers at War" quite moving:

Savimosh

Oh thanks for that quotation, Sara... I wasn't aware Peter Smith wrote that. :) Actually the quote that really got to me was one written by Arthur's adjutant, Flt Lt Brian Lilly, and published in the 84 Squadron magazine after Arthur had left:

‘[Having known him for two years] I am not ashamed to confess that I had a lump in my throat when I watched him leave us for the last time. That day the Squadron lost a CO who perhaps had exerted a greater influence over its history than any of his predecessors. When he took over… he found himself in command of 132 men – all that remained of the disastrous adventure in the Far East – without aircraft, without equipment and without hope. His first objective was to prevent the squadron being disbanded… Having succeeded, he set himself the task of rebuilding 84 to its former levels of prestige and efficiency… despite many early difficulties and disappointments…

I had the opportunity to observe Arthur Gill at very close quarters. I saw an excellent pilot, a good leader and an able administrator, but the qualities which… harnessed my admiration, respect and loyalty, was his unselfish and unsparing interest in every man serving under his command. Few indeed realised the debt which members of the squadron owed to him. He rarely gave an order. His personal example was sufficient to invest a request with a greater authority. He praised his subordinates in the hour of success and in less happy times readily accepted responsibility. He was one of the most considerate men I have ever known. Perhaps it was a fault that made him do so many trivial jobs instead of insisting on others doing more for him. Despite the enormous amount of work that he did, he never refused to listen nor shirked an issue.

As I write I learn that that he has been awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. I know every man in the Squadron will join me in congratulations and best wishes that the future will hold more glittering prizes than the command of this Squadron – prizes that we know he so richly deserves.’

As well as being quite an accolade, this gives some insight into Arthur's character, and the loyalty he inspired during that time. As for 'more glittering prizes', I don't think they really came... commanding 84 Sqn was his most gratifying appointment in the RAF.

savimosh01

5th Jun 2016, 20:40

Flt Lt Lilly's assessment of your father's character, both professionally and personally, is a very special gift. Thank you for sharing, Nigel.

NigG

7th Jun 2016, 20:38

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture348-arthur-s-first-flight-aged-16.jpg
The first flight

Learning to fly in the RAF, 1937-8

Arthur’s first flight was as a sixteen-year-old, in 1932. His aunt paid for him to take a joy-ride in an Avro Cadet that took up holiday-makers, from a field behind Margate beach. It was a biplane with an open cockpit… with the noise, the slipstream and the view, it must have been enthralling! A later flight in Gypsy Moth sealed it… he wanted to learn how to fly. But with a meagre salary from his job as a fabric salesroom assistant, there was no way he could afford the cost. He turned to the (part-time) Royal Auxiliary Air Force, but this came to nothing; the RAuxAF was an exclusive organisation and its pilots tended to be rich playboys drawn from Society’s elite.

However by 1936 there were rumblings of another war with Germany. The Government began a civilian-run scheme to train pilots, called the RAF Volunteer Reserve. It was a chance for civilians who lived within reach of an appropriate aerodrome, to learn to fly on weekends and during their holidays. The invitation to apply was open to all, irrespective of their background. Having passed the selection process, Arthur attended evening classes in airmanship, navigation, armaments and aircraft servicing. After which, he was assigned to Hanworth’s London Air Park, a grass airfield, in 1937. He joined the first intake of 32 pupils at No. 5 Elementary and Reserve Flying Training School. It was equipped with Blackburn B2s (similar to the Gypsy Moth) and the instructors were all ex-short service RAF pilots.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture347-1938-learning-fly-raf-vr.jpg

The most memorable instructor was F/O Louis Rowley, who had been the top pilot at Alan Cobham’s Flying Circus. Rowley could pick-up a handkerchief with a hook on his wing tip. On one occasion, Rowley took over control as they took-off, turned the aircraft on its side and shot through the narrow gap between two trees on the side of the airfield. There was good advice from him too. Rowley told him: ‘I wish you wouldn’t land so close to the boundary hedge when you come in to land… I sit here with my arse squeezed tight, urging you on! It’s much better to hit the far fence at taxiing speed than it is to hit the near hedge at flying speed!’ Arthur never forgot his words.

Soon after Arthur made his first solo flight, he was told to fly circuits of the airfield. Disobeying instructions he tried to get high enough to visit the clouds. The next moment he had lost his bearings… he was lost. Flying on, looking for an airfield, his fuel gauge was getting low… the B2 carried just an hour’s worth of fuel in its top wing tank. Then he saw an airfield, put down and asked at the duty pilot’s hut where he was. He was at Farnborough… miles from Hanworth. The duty pilot telephoned Hanworth and was told not to let Arthur take-off! Rowley and a colleague arrived in another aircraft and flew him back. He got a reprimand for not doing as he was told: to stay in sight of the airfield!

A later forced landing occurred when flying aerobatics. The engine cut-out at the top of a loop, either because of fuel-starvation, or because Arthur had lost too much speed. He rolled out of the loop, pushed the nose down to gain speed and landed in a field of barley. He had no brakes or chocks in front of the wheels, so to restart, he swung the propeller then had to dash around the wing to climb-in, as the aircraft started to move forward by itself. On landing back at Hanworth, a mechanic asked him why barley stalks were caught in the undercarriage. Happily he didn’t report him.

Several student pilots lost their lives. One was an eighteen-year-old who was waiting to take-off. An RAF pilot landed on top of him, having failed to make the usual curving descent to check if it was clear. Both died in the inferno. The inquiry, that followed, recommended that some form of ground control be introduced to over-see landing and take-off.

After passing elementary flying (after 6.5 hours), he progressed on to the larger and more powerful Hart and Audax, where training included gunnery, bombing, photography and navigation exercises. They were delightful planes to fly. However, Arthur was taken by surprise, one beautiful day, having climbed to 21,000’. He didn’t realise that oxygen had to be used at that height. He went very dizzy and vague. He quickly lost height and soon recovered his senses, yet another lesson-learned!

His cousin recounted how one Sunday there was an aircraft circling their house, in Berkhamsted, and his mother wondered if it could be Arthur. A short while later, Arthur and a colleague, both in flying overalls, stepped through the garden gate. A quick cup of tea and then they all walked up to the common, helped to turn the aircraft, after which Arthur took-off, narrowly missing the golfers! [To be continued]

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture349-1938-learning-fly-audax.jpg
Beside the Hawker Audax

Danny42C

7th Jun 2016, 22:09

NigG (#125),

...'It’s much better to hit the far fence at taxiing speed than it is to hit the near hedge at flying speed!’...
Another popular version of this good advice; "A low speed crash in the overshoot is preferable to a high-speed crash in the undershoot !"
... He turned to the (part-time) Royal Auxiliary Air Force, but this came to nothing; the RAuxAF was an exclusive organisation and its pilots tended to be rich playboys drawn from Society’s elite...
At Woodvale, 611 (West Lancs) R.Aux.A.F. (Adj) turned me down in 1946 as they were "Full up, old boy", but I had a sneaking suspicion that the same prejudice may have been at work... Like him, the Volunteer Reserve were less fussy and took me in !
...After passing elementary flying (after 6.5 hours)...
Remarkable ! (the wartime average was around 8 hours).
... Arthur was taken by surprise, one beautiful day, having climbed to 21,000’. He didn’t realise that oxygen had to be used at that height. He went very dizzy and vague. He quickly lost height and soon recovered his senses, yet another lesson-learned!...
Should've been told. Luckily he realised the symptoms in time, others did not. Its onset can be quite insidious, as I know from my own experience in the demonstration they gave us (ie on us)in a decompression chamber at OTU. Don't suppose they dare do such a thing now (H&S and all that).

Ah, those halcyon days before the war, when the RAF was "The Best Flying Club in England" !

Danny.

NigG

8th Jun 2016, 21:16

Danny

I would have thought 611 RAuxAF would have been chockablock with applicants postwar... so many pilots wanting to keep their hand in. Can't conceive of anyone turning you down if he could avoid it, Danny! I reckon the Adjutant would have been kicking himself after you left... 'Damn... that's a pity... good sort there!'

Yes, Arthur was quite proud of his going solo after 6.5 hours. One of the instructors said he was bit of a natural. Lucky him... as you'll know very well, lots of people really had to struggle... some getting the hang of flying at the last moment... others not, to their great regret.

Halcyon days... definitely seems like it to me. I think Arthur had a great time getting his Wings. If you visit Hanworth today (yes the same Hanworth that's now infamous for it riots some years ago), there's nothing left of the airfield... it's all been turned into a public recreational area, with games fields and dog-walkers. The one thing that survives, apparently, is Hanworth house, now fenced-off and sealed by the Council. This was a hotel in Arthur's day, right next to their hanger and the nearby aero-club. It was effectively their Mess. He said they had many riotous parties there... men only, of course (no women in the RAF then)... and all the instructors lost their trousers at some point. Good days, for sure... but to be followed by tough ones. Arthur was pretty sure he was the lone survivor, after the war, of the 31 students who trained with him. Ordinary guys... extraordinary sacrifice.

Wander00

9th Jun 2016, 08:34

I thought the riots were in Handsworth, not Hanworth

Danny42C

9th Jun 2016, 16:15

NigG,
...yes the same Hanworth that's now infamous for its riots some years ago...
Handsworth, of course (as Wander00 has gently corrected). Another point of similarity between Arthur (if I may be permitted to use your Father's Christian name) and myself:
In January and February of 1942, I did my Advanced School (and got my USAAC Wings) at Selma Field in Alabama. Then few people ouside the US had ever heard (or ever would hear) about the place, which was well and truly "out in the sticks".

In 1965 its name spread worldwide, on account of the race riots and the Selma Marches.

Danny.

NigG

9th Jun 2016, 20:18

Danny

Reference you joining the Volunteer Reserve post-war, can you clarify this, Danny? My understanding is that all new RAF pilots (and other aircrew) trained during wartime were enrolled in the RAF(VR), and wore VR lapel badges. But it sounds like you weren't. Also, why was the RAF(VR) still enrolling in 1946.. when, presumably, you had been demobbed, and the RAF was being down-sized?

Wander00

Oops!... yes, you are right... well spotted. :) The riots were in Handsworth, West Midlands, not Hanworth, London Borough of Hounslow. Apologies to the people of Hanworth. Commiserations with the people of Handsworth. :rolleyes:

NigG

9th Jun 2016, 20:33

NigG,

Another point of similarity between Arthur (if I may be permitted to use your Father's Christian name) and myself:

Ah!... you're from the polite and respectful generation, Danny! While the new generation is the 'familiar' one! 'All right, mate?'!! :) I think your way is nicer! But doubt that it will ever come back... unless there's another world war, the younger generation gets drafted, and becomes re-invested with some sense of hierarchy!

(Off-topic, I know.)

Danny42C

9th Jun 2016, 22:06

NigG (#130),
...Can you clarify this, Danny? My understanding is that all new RAF pilots (and other aircrew) trained during wartime were enrolled in the RAF(VR), and wore VR lapel badges. But it sounds like you weren't. Also, why was the RAF(VR) still enrolling in 1946.. when, presumably, you had been demobbed, and the RAF was being down-sized?...
I was enlisted (in 1940), and commissioned (in 1943), into the RAFVR. I at first had the "VR" on my shoulder as an airman, and if commissioned in the early years of the war, would have had the "VR" on my lapels. Your father would have had the same. In the same way, embodied prewar Auxiliaries wore an "A" on lapel or shoulder, which distinguished us from prewar regulars.

But then the great mass of conscripts were coming in (although aircrew were all volunteers from among them), and the RAF saw advantage in enlisting/commissioning everyone into the RAFVR, although they were not now in fact strictly "volunteers". It meant that you could get rid of them without difficulty "on the cessation of hostilities".

The "VR" on lapels now served no purpose, and was discarded. I am not sure about the OR's shoulder tag - I was a long way away, with other things to worry about at the time - (but the Auxiliaries kept their "A"s, which caused a good deal of heartache among the "genuine" volunteers). I don't think the VR was reformed until 1947 (for the RAF will always need Reserves), although most had been ruthlessly "released" at the war's end (the 1949 RAF was one-tenth the size of the 1946 one). The ones who were chosen to stay mostly were put on Short-Service Commissions (a select few were awarded Permanent Commissions).

It's complicated, I know, but that's how it was.

Thank you for the compliment !

Danny.

NigG

10th Jun 2016, 08:21

Danny

Ah yes. I checked Wikipedia, subsequent to writing my post, and noticed the RAFVR was re-established post-war. (Must remember... 'check spelling... check grammar... check Wikipedia'!). Thanks for that. :) Also noticed on Wiki that the 'VR' lapel badges were discontinued because they were deemed to be divisive. The VRs tending to be looked down on by the Regulars and Auxiliaries... which was pretty surprising, since half of Bomber Command aircrew were VRs by the end of 1941, and c.95% by the end of the war.

Wander00

10th Jun 2016, 08:34

It was said unkindly of a former Chief Inspector of Constabulary that he was the only police officer who in his career was defeated at two riots, Handsworth and Garden House Hotel Cambridge (the riot against the regime of the Greek "Colonels")

Danny42C

10th Jun 2016, 16:25

NigG (#133),
... Also noticed on Wiki that the 'VR' lapel badges were discontinued because they were deemed to be divisive...
A bit odd - seeing that the badges were introduced for exactly that purpose: to distinguish the Volunteer Reservists and the Auxiliaries from the regulars who had been serving on the outbreak of war. Of course they were "divisive" - they were intended to "divide" !
.... The VRs tending to be looked down on by the Regulars and Auxiliaries... which was pretty surprising...
Don't remember anything like that. When everybody was a VR, there was no point in it ("when everybody's somebody, nobody's anybody"). The dwindling number of regulars, as a proportion of the increasing number of conscripts, made the "old sweats" a rarity, but there was no reason for them to consider themselves (or anyone else to consider them) superior on that account.
The Auxiliaries (who were lucky to keep their "A"s) might have considered themselves "a cut above the rest", but this may have been just an impression gained from the envy of the real Volunteers when their "VR"s were taken away.

In a just world, it would have been perfectly simple to recruit all who volunteered before they were called up into the Volunteer Reserve, and give them "VR"s (AFAIK, there was no recruitment into the Auxiliaries after war began). and simply enlist the rest into the "RAF" and have done with it. Did the Army and Navy agonise in this way ? I think not. But "just", the World ain't.

Danny.

PS: Gentlemen, today is the 10th !

MPN11

11th Jun 2016, 08:44

Regular/Volunteer ... Unlike the RAF and RN, the Army had no such visible distinction between the categories. According to my late father [pre-War TA] there was much surprise later in the War from the Regulars, when people such as he started wearing their Territorial Decoration [with War Service counting double time!] and they discovered how many of their 'leaders' were formerly TA.

NigG

11th Jun 2016, 09:51

Danny and MPN11

The issue of Regulars and Auxiliaries looking down on Volunteer Reservists (and the Regular Army looking down on the TA) perhaps had it's origins in peacetime attitudes. The VRs and TA in peacetime were (are) part-timers. Inevitably, their level of proficiency would be inferior. The Auxiliaries were also part-time in the pre-war era, but might have assumed superiority over the VR 'newboys'. Arthur told me that VRs were looked down on, and the Wiki article corroborates that. Of course, as you say Danny, once war started everyone was full-time and fully trained, so the continuation of any prejudice seems unreasonable. But, glad to hear you never had any sense of being looked down on. Suggests that it may have happened in some units and not in others.

Danny42C

11th Jun 2016, 20:50

NigG (#137),

Thanks for the PM !
...The VRs and TA in peacetime were (are) part-timers. Inevitably, their level of proficiency would be inferior. The Auxiliaries were also part-time in the pre-war era...
So were the Auxiliaries in the post-war years. But their 20 Squadrons formed one-third of the RAF's fighter strength in the Cold War ('50s) years. (Wiki)

They were reckoned to be as efficient and as well trained as the Regular Squadrons. They flew the same aircraft (Meteor and Vampire), and with one Interception sortie on Saturday afternoons, and two on Sundays, would be not far behind the hours put in by the Regulars. Or so I was told...

They were disbanded in '57, when the Hunters and Swifts were coming it. We couldn't afford to kit them out with Hunters.....(the old, old story).

Danny.

NigG

12th Jun 2016, 14:43

Danny I bet there were some very long faces when the RAuxAF learned they were to be disbanded. The loss of a wonderful opportunity to fly (and the rest). Perhaps it was inevitable too. Though much smaller, the fighting effectiveness of the modern RAF must significantly exceed that of the 1950s' one. Technology trumps manpower (and where will it end?) :ugh:

Learning to fly

Returning to some of Arthur's experiences, when he was learning to fly in 1937-9, as a member of the (part-time) RAF Volunteer Reserve... another of his memories was of 1938. He wrote:

My next forced landing was when I flying in a formation of four 'Harts'. The leader, another student-pilot, led us into thick cloud and poor visibility. When I came out of the cloud, the other three aircraft had disappeared! I looked around for a while but didn't recognise where I was, and there were no useful landmarks to enable me to locate myself on the map. So I chose a field and landed, avoiding some high trees and a power-line that ran to a farmhouse. At the far end was a herd of cows. I taxied over to some barns and asked a farm labourer where I was. 'You be at Tring, Sir', said he. I thanked him and said I hoped the cows wouldn't be producing curdled milk. 'They be alright, Sir', with a broad grin. I took off and found my way back to Hanworth. The other three were already back and said they had concluded I must have disappeared to 'shoot-up' some girlfriend's house!

That year, I watched the start of the 'King's Cup Race' whose course was from Hanworth to the Isle of Man.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture367-sparrowhawk-king-s-cup-race-href-commons-wikimedia-org-wiki-user-ruthas-title-user-ruthas-ruthas-span-class-int-own-work-lang-en-own-work-span-href-http-creativecommons-org-licenses-3-0-title-creative-commons-attribution-3-0-cc-3-0-https-commons-wikimedia-org-w-index-php-curid-7420068.jpg

[A 'Sparrowhawk', one of the entrants to the King's Cup]

The engine of one of the small aircraft failed just as it was passing over a row of houses that lined the east side of the airfield. Instead of pushing his nose down very quickly to maintain speed, then glide down to land in the field ahead, the pilot tried to turn-back to the airfield to land. With the nose pointing upwards and the rapid loss of flying speed, the aircraft stalled and then spun into one of the houses below. He was killed, of course, but so too was a woman, lying in her bed.

[to be continued]

MPN11

12th Jun 2016, 16:47

The Curse of Turnback strikes again. I recall being cautioned against trying that on my PPL ... land straight ahead, into wind (assuming there's a suitable spot, of course).

Danny42C

12th Jun 2016, 19:35

NigG (#139),
...Though much smaller, the fighting effectiveness of the modern RAF must significantly exceed that of the 1950s' one...
True "up to a point, Lord Copper". But the RAF of (say) '58 was not all that different from that of '55. The threat then was still the Warsaw Pact bomber. Wiki tells us:
...The first strategic-missile unit became operational on 9 February 1959 at Plesetsk in north-west Russia...
The answer as ever (ignoring MAD) was still the fighter, and the Hunter was no more than an updated Meteor/Vampire. Agreed, its 'fighting effectiveness' was superior- but one chap can still only be at one place at one time. Numbers still count ! Dumping one-third of your fighting strength does not seem a good idea. Admittedly, in '57 the core of their ex-war people would be in their mid-thirties, but experienced, fully trained, and in full flying practice. And by then there would have been a growing proportion of NS pilots (608 got its first ones in '54) and in the event or likelihood of war, the ones who'd finished their NS would have been pulled back in one way or another.

No, I see "the dead hand of the Treasury" at work here. Nothing changes
...So I chose a field and landed, avoiding some high trees and a power-line that ran to a farmhouse. At the far end was a herd of cows. I taxied over to some barns and asked a farm labourer where I was. 'You be at Tring, Sir', said he. I thanked him and said I hoped the cows wouldn't be producing curdled milk. 'They be alright, Sir', with a broad grin. I took off and found my way back to Hanworth...
We're in another world, aren't we ? I could almost smell the cows. It's in that last, warm summer of '38. What would today's farmer's reaction be ? Reach for his solicitor and sue the MOD for (think of a number) still-born calves !
...the pilot tried to turn-back to the airfield to land...
They drummed into me in the States: "you cain't use a field you've left behind !"

Nice pics - thanks !

Danny.

NigG

14th Jun 2016, 15:05

Danny and MPN11

That must be a classic pilot's nightmare: catastrophically losing flying speed on take-off. One's first, incorrect, instinct must be to keep the nose up, and the second one to head back to the airfield and thus to 'safety'. A friend of mine is a glider pilot. One of his instructor colleagues was giving a paying visitor a joyride. On taking-off, the towline, drawing them up into the air, broke. This pilot then forgot standard procedure ('stick your nose down and land ahead of you') and turned back for the landing ground. They stalled and a wing hit the ground, thus cartwheeling them and causing considerable damage to the aircraft. I think everyone rushed to reassure the poor passenger and made light of it: 'Haha!... bit of a bumpy landing!'. There was some expectation that the pilot would lose his instructor qualification, but apparently, he got away with it.

Another recent example comes to mind, where 'impulse' over-rode 'knowledge and training'. This was the Air France Airbus, Flight 447, that came down in 2009, crashing into the Atlantic on its way back to Paris from Rio de Janeiro. There's been a couple of TV programmes about it. As I recall, they had zero visibility, at night, in poor weather conditions. The auto-pilot had handed control back to the aircrew, as the sensors gauging airspeed etc, had frozen-up. The Junior Pilot had control of the aircraft and kept the nose up despite the aircraft continuing to lose height. The stall alarm went off, but the Captain, having just returned from the bunk-bed, didn't realise the nose was being held high by the Junior pilot. By the time he worked out what on earth was going on, they were too low to put the nose down and thus accelerate and regain flying speed. It seems that the Junior Pilot's intuition was that they were losing height, so the aircraft had to be pointed upwards. All the while, the aircraft was in a stall attitude, falling, nose high, out of the sky. One of the conclusions of the experts was that airline pilots were being trained to fly sophisticated computerised aircraft, but fundamental, hands-on, piloting skills were being neglected.

This is also an example of where advances in automation have the effect of de-skilling humans. Likewise, the modern-age mountain walker who finds himself lost and utterly in a pickle when the batteries of his GPS run flat. :ugh:

MPN11

14th Jun 2016, 18:37

I think that's why "Stalling" is/was about the first exercise after "Effects of Controls" ... or at least recognising when it was about to happen.

Danny42C

15th Jun 2016, 16:02

NigG (#142),
...That must be a classic pilot's nightmare: catastrophically losing flying speed on take-off. One's first, incorrect, instinct must be to keep the nose up, and the second one to head back to the airfield and thus to 'safety'...
Worse than "losing" flying speed by misfortune" is losing it by your own stupid fault. If you like, I will send you a copy of "My Crash" file by the PPRuNe e-mail method. You do not need to reply in that way, for that will involve disclosing your email address to me, and I do not need a reply, anyway. I do this because my PM inbox keeps hitting the 100% stop, and there is already a group of three Parts of the story on the "Pilot's Brevet" Thread.
...Another recent example comes to mind, where 'impulse' over-rode 'knowledge and training'. This was the Air France Airbus, Flight 447, that came down in 2009, crashing into the Atlantic on its way back to Paris from Rio de Janeiro....
Now the take I shall give you on this is no more than that to be expected from any well-informed layman. I never flew on the civil side, and for the greater part of my 10 years as an Air Force pilot, I was a simple Stick-Rudder-Throttle man, never had anything to do with automatics, and I flew from A to B by means of watch, map and compass until almost the end of my time. So with that caveat, here goes:

This case (AF447) has become a classic of the dangers of the excessive reliance on automation and computerisation of all the control and navigation systems of an airliner which is a feature of air traffic today. The sad fact is that (to take the simplest example) automatic pilots (which have been known since the thirties) can fly a plane, and hold height and heading, as well as (if not better than) the best of human pilots. But the human gets tired, the autopilots do not. And the more accurately (and smoothly !) an aircraft is flown to its plotted route, the less fuel it will need to reach its destination. Fuel is the major item in operating costs, the accountants rule supreme. Captains may be disciplined by their Companies for "manually" flying their aircraft (or permitting their First Officers to do so).

Once Navigators had an honoured place on the Flight Deck. Not any more - they are long gone, more money saved. Instead, all the "way-points" of the planned route are stored in on-board computers. These are constantly fed with aircraft position (now by GPIs, before that the Inertial Navigation System (don't ask), both independent of anything outside the aircraft. Also input are running details of airspeed, groundspeed, height and much else. The computers determine the correct heading to fly, and when to turn, and instruct the autopilot to do so. They can follow an ILS approach to a landing (ILS came in before the War, it has been the standard world-wide bad-weather approach system ever since). Now Autoland can (at all major airports) finish the job.

The Pilots are relieved of all need to practise their basic flying skills (and actively discouraged from doing so): they have become Systems Managers instead. And, so long as the (very reliable) systems are up and running, that is fine. But......

The "Black Boxes" were recovered (by a miracle of deep-sea salvage), and the whole sorry story came to light. There are many blow-by-blow accounts on Google/Wiki.

I will only add my two cent's worth. IMHO, 300+ people died in an (at first) perfectly flyable aircraft. Apart from the "De Mortuis..." angle, don't blame the pilots. They acted in the way they had been conditioned to act. Any one of the three could have gone back to first principles and flown the aircraft out of trouble. It simply did not occur to them to do so.

So the Companies have had a Damascene conversion and reversed their policies ? Dream on - money talks - we all want cheap fares, don't we - it could happen again at any moment, anywhere.

Now I bow my grey hairs in anticipation of the storm which will descend on me. Put it all down to Senile Decay, I throw myself on the mercy of the Court. What do I know, anyway ?

Danny.

Chris Scott

15th Jun 2016, 16:14

Hello Danny42C,

Writing as a retired airline pilot who flew fly-by-wire a/c for the last 14 of a 35-year career (having started on Daks), FWIW I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

(Never imagined this thread would take off quite like it has. Some great stuff on here.)

Chris

Danny42C

15th Jun 2016, 17:14

Chris,

Am greatly heartened by your support - thought a load of brickbats would be coming my way ! (might yet). Thanks !

Yes, you never know how a seemingly limited Thread can blossom out, do you ? Thanks are due to the wise Moderators, who let us ramble on a bit at the fringes of the Thread.

This is particularly true of the Prince of PPRune Threads - "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII".

Danny.

MPN11

15th Jun 2016, 20:07

Nice post as usual Danny42C ... the AF tragedy was {IMHO] caused not by failing to go back to basics, but not even knowing/recognising what the basics were.

And "hello" Chris Scott ;)

Danny42C

16th Jun 2016, 14:48

MPN11,
From the standpoint of this Very Old Hairy, it touches a nerve. The initial fault was a failed ASI, caused by ice in the pitot tubes. You don't need an ASI. I flew my first 60 hrs without one, and felt no pain (I knew no better, and thought all aircraft could be flown like that). AFAIK, the gyro instruments were working normally - so P3 (and P2 and P1) had an (artificial) horizon.

You put the nose on the horizon, and your wings level, and if the engines keep running, the bird will keep flying. Never mind anything else. We used to say "Never mind the Altitude - Fly Attitude !".

P3 vainly tried to chase the misreading altimeter with the results we know. Then (and this fills me with horror), it seems that the two Airbus sidesticks are not mechanically coupled. It was dark. So P2 in the other seat could neither see nor feel what P3 was doing. By the time P1 came in, confusion was total (and possibly the aircraft was already stalled past recovery).

Your:

...[IMHO] caused not by failing to go back to basics, but not even knowing/recognising what the basics were...
I would say rather that they still knew the basics - but they had been "brainwashed" into putting them out of mind.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it. Pity it only works backwards. (We must both settle back into our armchairs now, harrumph, having explained everything to our own complete satisfaction).

Danny.

MPN11

16th Jun 2016, 16:03

I, like you, started flying whilst being able to listen to 'the wind in the wires' ... and I still drive with the same audible cues, despite having an all-electric car. I can 'hear' when I'm doing 30 mph without needing to look at the digital speed readout :)

But I accept that the complex and automated Airbus [and other] systems these days must tend to take you down a dark path.

NigG

16th Jun 2016, 17:48

The initial fault was a failed ASI, caused by ice in the pitot tubes. You don't need an ASI. I flew my first 60 hrs without one, and felt no pain (I knew no better, and thought all aircraft could be flown like that).... You put the nose on the horizon, and your wings level, and if the engines keep running, the bird will keep flying. Never mind anything else. We used to say "Never mind the Altitude - Fly Attitude !".

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture370-raf-airspeed-10-oxford-ii-brown.jpg

Your post, and MPN11's, reminded me of Arthur's unpleasant experience of a frozen pitot tube sensor, in January 1955. He was CO of RAF Old Sarum at the time. The trip was a solo flight from Abingdon to Benson and back, in an Airspeed 'Oxford', in order to collect a sofa that had been re-upholstered. [Not sure how easy it is to do that in the modern RAF!] It was a beautiful sunny day and he set-off without checking the weather. All went well until, on the return flight, he ran into dense cloud and snowfall. He couldn't see a thing. This is his entry in his log book:

On returning from Benson, I ran into a blizzard when nearing base. I tried to land at Boscombe Down by G.C.A. but their radar became unserviceable. I made an emergency 'PAN' call and was diverted to Lyneham. My Air Speed Indicator then became iced-up [He recalled he was having to judge whether the aircraft was climbing, descending, or flying level by the sound of the engines] Lyneham then couldn't accept me when the weather 'clamped down' there. I was then re-diverted to Abingdon, where I landed [guided down by radar] a few minutes before this airfield, too, was 'blotted out'.

I sense a few cold beads of sweat on his forehead!

MPN11

16th Jun 2016, 18:51

NigG ... 'unpleasant is an understatement! At least ATC finally provided a 'safe and expeditious service' ;)

Of course, it's a different scenario at 36,000 ft in an Airbus in CuNims.

Danny42C

16th Jun 2016, 19:55

NigG,

Yes, the wandering winter snowstorm was one of our greatest flying horrors, because they can build up very quickly and unpredictably, and when they cover an airfield, heavy falling snow quickly reduces visibilty to zero and landing is impossible. You have to stand off until it moves off (if you have the fuel) or divert, with no certainty that your diversion will not "go out" with its own storm before you get there. This seems to have happened to your father, and I well imagine that he was mightily relieved to get down in the end.

Before I retired, our excellent AR-1 radars were able to see these things coming down the wind fifty miles out, and if your airfield was in their path, ATC would keep everyone informed of their ETAs.

One of the final tasks of the RAF Oxfords was to act as the 'lead-ins' for the Meteor T7s of the AFSs. It was an enormous jump: the Anson had a top speed of 192mph and a wing loading of 21.5lb/sq ft. The Meteor (figures for F8), 600mph and 49lb/sq ft. (all Wiki). Even the wartime people like myself (who'd handled what passed for fast machinery in our day) had our hands full with the Meteor in the early '50s. The new boys (and the later NS entrants) died like flies. The accident statistics of the Meteor at that time are horrifying (there is/was a Thread on this Forum about it).

It was still in use for this purpose in '54, when 608 got its first NS pilot. I thought it almost criminal. By all means use it at SFTS, but then put them on (say) Mosquitos for a few hrs before the Meteor.

Danny.

NigG

18th Jun 2016, 20:32

Danny

I've just made the catastrophic error of writing a wadge of text, then popping back to previous page, only to find the text has disappeared on my return. Humph! :sad:

Anyway... thanks for your many observations above. Always interesting, sometimes fascinating, frequently laugh-out-loud amusing!

Re your 144 above, can you not re-post your 'My accident'? I can't believe it won't bear another airing. You mentioned privately emailing it. Surely better for all to savour! Incidently, anonymity isn't an issue for me... I'm a 'nobody'. But I appreciate that you have to be cautious in that respect. Were your contact details ever to get out, you'd be deluged by authors, writers, journalists, editors, historians. Could be very nasty!

But I'm wondering if you recorded a taped interview with the Imperial War Museum? Years ago, I gave them my father's details and, recently retired, he trekked up to London at their request. His answers on the recording are somewhat terse, so I rather doubt that they got quite what they were hoping for. However, with your 'gift of the gab', you could be a God-send for them! Also, may I observe (as if you didn't know) you ain't gonna be around for ever, sir. I recall you mentioned, somewhere in the 'Brevet' Thread, that you'd written your memoirs. Possibly you're satisfied that these are sufficient and you need leave no further legacy. Anyway... I thought I might be bold and mention it.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture371-gloster-meteor-f-4-vt340-fairey-ringway-21-07-55-edited-2.jpg

Re your post immediately above, I knew the Vampire was risky to fly... indeed I mentioned my father having to belly-land one (on page 3). But I didn't know the Meteor (photo) was dodgy. (Looks so solid!) Arthur, having converted from piston engine aircraft, thought the jets remarkable for their speed... blasting up to height on take-off. He though they were easier to fly than multi-piston-engine aircraft... less monitoring and tweaking of engines, etc.

Oh, a small observation! You and your Air Force colleagues are much given to jargon and acronyms. I should point out that we haven't all been favoured with a period of service in the Air Force. I follow some of it in your post ... 'ATC' is Air Traffic Control (not Air Training Corps). 'AFS' is Advanced Flying School? 'NS' is definitely National Service. 'SFTS' is Service Flying Training School? Some of the jargon in 'Brevet' is very tricky, elsewhere it's mind-warping! Then again, I concede, recourse to jargon must be both automatic and rather pleasurable. What is the point in learning a foreign language if you never use it?! :)

Danny42C

18th Jun 2016, 22:47

NigG,
...only to find the text has disappeared on my return. Humph!...
I (and many others) have been caught by this malign gremlin which infests PPRuNePad. Clearly an evil intelligence is at work, for he always waits till you have almost finished before doing the dirty on you. Solution: always draft somewhere else (I use NotePad) where it should be safe, and then copy/paste onto PPRuNePad.

But beware: foiled in this way, he has found his way even into NotePad. Therefore, as soon as I've finished a draft on NotePad, I save it to Desktop at once. He hasn't sussed that one out (yet). But no doubt he's working on it !
... can you not re-post your 'My accident'? I can't believe it won't bear another airing...
Well, seeing that it has not previously been Posted on this Thread, and I'm a nice obliging sort of chap, and anyway I never tire of hearing my own voice, will stick it on the end of this.
... recently retired, he trekked up to London at their request...
They'd be on a hiding to nothing with me ! I retired 44 years ago, and can just about get to my own front door.
... I knew the Vampire was risky to fly... indeed I mentioned my father having to belly-land one (on page 3). But I didn't know the Meteor was dodgy...
The Vampire was very nice and reliable (your father was unlucky). And the Meteor was all right too. It was just too much for the poor young men who'd (IMHO) been inadequately prepared for it.
... What on earth is the point in learning a foreign language if you never use it?!...
You're not alone in finding our alphabet soup a bit difficult at times. I, too, have sometimes to ask at on Thread for an explanation. Do not hesitate to do so. Someone will always chip in with the answer.

Danny.

ANNEX 1.

Febuary 24th is a date I'll not forget in a hurry ! - for on this day 72 years ago I came within a whisker of the Pearly Gates. I told my tale here in three separate Posts some 3½ years ago, but as many of our newer readers may not have read the originals, I've now edited and combined them into one story (and added an Epilogue). Even so, it's still much too long for a single Post, so I've split it into three parts. Here's Part I:

On 24th February '44, in the Arakan in Burma. "Stew" Mobsby and I took off on our 53rd sortie, flying No. 3 (wingman on the left of) the leader, Bill Boyd Berry. We were going some way down south (Donbaik ?), and the formation was climbing more slowly than usual, as we had plenty of time to get up to our bombing height. I think we took off from Ramu II, but cannot be sure - there were so many places, we were moving all the time and they all looked the same.

So quite soon after taking off we passed over the battle area (the Second Arakan campaign was reaching its climax) fairly low. Johnny Jap would take a pot at us, of course, but then he had a go every time we came back from a sortie and did no serious damage, although it was not unusual for aircraft to land back with small arms hits. On this occasion, I felt and heard nothing out of the ordinary, and neither did "Stew". Twenty minutes into the climb, I had a look round the instruments. Oil pressure was zero.

Engines don't run long without oil, and I didn't fancy life as a Japanese prisoner. I signalled BBB (drew my hand across my throat, and pointed to the engine - we kept R/T silence), and started back. I warned "Stew" to be ready to bale out; we were at 3,000 ft and could easily manage it. The next few minutes were nail-biting, but then we were back over friendly territory again.

I was thankful, but starting to have doubts. The engine was still running smoothly. What was more, neither oil nor cylinder head temperatures were rising. I began to think that all I had was a dud oil gauge. With every mile my suspicion grew. By the time base was in sight (there was nowhere closer to land), I'd convinced myself. My screen was clear of oil, so the prop can't be throwing it out. "Stew" said we weren't making smoke, so we can't be burning it through the engine. The two temperature needles hadn't shifted. It had to be the oil pressure gauge, and I felt a bit of a fool.

Even so, I might have put it down off a straight-in approach, but these were awkward and difficult in a Vengeance because of the very poor forward view at low speeds. So we normally flew circuits. As there seemed to be no hurry, I did so now. Bad mistake! Downwind, I dropped the wheels and started my checks. The engine seized.

It had shown no sign of distress. Now there was just dead silence and a stationary propeller blade staring at me. The Vengeance was a poor flying machine and no glider at all. It went down like a brick. It was doing just that from a thousand feet - too low to bale out and no time even to think of dumping bombs. I took a last look at the strip, but it would have been suicide to try to get in from where we were with no power.

Nothing for it but crash-land straight ahead. I yelled "Brace" at "Stew", lifted the wheels and cut the main switch, to stop the fuel pumps and isolate the battery to avoid sparks. I can only remember thinking "I must keep 150 on the clock to have any hope of rounding-out at the bottom"... Then my mind goes blank.

A mile or so away was an RAF Repair and Salvage Unit. I would think that most of its trade was in salvage. They did not have to go far to collect mine. As far as they could see, I was making for their clearing, but sank into trees before I got there. I must have rounded-out all right, for the aircraft survived touchdown to go skidding through the open jungle. They told me that the tail unit came off first, then trees removed both wings. So far things may have been fairly tolerable inside, if a bit bumpy, for we were having a ride in a sort of high-speed bulldozer. Then the engine broke out.

Deprived of its battering-ram, the relatively light remaining structure hit something hard, broke apart just aft of the gunner's cockpit, and stopped abruptly in the shape of an inverted "V". The front fuselage and cockpits remained intact, the bombs stayed good as gold and the fuel did not go up. Thank God for the brick-built Vengeance! (anything else would have disintegrated and killed us!)

We'd had a lifetime's entitlement of luck in the last few seconds, but were in no position to appreciate it, both knocked out in the crash. My luck had stretched even further. I'd been wearing my "Ray-Bans" under my helmet, with my goggles pushed up on my head. When we hit the final obstacle, the cable retaining my shoulder harness snapped and I jack-knifed face first into the instrument panel. (The P-40 recently found in the Saraha has the "Needle & Ball" glass smashed. It's dead centre of the panel: it's the only broken instrument glass - (cf 682al's pic on #2709 p. 136) - every picture tells a story).

By rights, the glass lenses should have shattered into my eyes and blinded me. But, as far as we could make out, the goggles had taken the first impact, in the next millisecond the lenses must have jerked out of the frame and away from my eyes. The frame buckled, scooped the bridge off my nose and ploughed into my forehead and left cheek. And that was the total extent of my injuries !

"Stew" had been facing forward, braced head down on his navigation table. He broke a bone in his left wrist and got a bang on the nose, leaving him with an odd disability - he couldn't smell. This was no great loss out there and he got scant sympathy on that account, but it earned him a nice lttle lump sum from the War Pensions people later.

The RSU people ran over to pull us out; watchers at the base had seen us go down and sent the camp ambulance. I came to briefly as they were loading me on a stretcher, and remember the hot sun on my face. I couldn't see as my eyes were full of drying blood. "How's Stew?" - "He's all right". I looked a lot worse than I actually was, and that had an amusing sequel.

I came to fully in a Mobile Field Hospital at Cox's Bazar. They'd had mostly malaria and dysentery cases, and were quite chuffed at getting two proper "battle" casualties. "Stew" got a big cast on his arm and his nose shrank to normal size over the next few weeks. The enthusiastic medics sewed up my face and a surgeon made up a new bridge for my nose out of a patch from my thigh. Kept in place by a "saddle" of dental plastic, this wasn't perfect, but has done very well.

We were looked after quite efficiently by a staff of RAF nursing orderlies, fiercely dragooned by a P.M. RAF Nursing Service Matron for the three (I think) RAF wards. (The Army, of course, had the lion's share of the Field Hospital: it was an Army surgeon who did my job). We must have spent about a month there, then "threw away our crutches" ("Stew's" cast and my nose 'saddle'), and prepared to go off to Calcutta on convalescent leave.

(Part II in a day or so)

Danny42C.

----------------------------------------------------

(Part II)

First task would be to secure our belongings. The ambulance crew had reported back to the Squadron what they'd seen when they'd picked us up, but of course it had taken them some time to reach us and I'd been bleeding like a stuck pig all over everything in the meanwhile. So the tale they told was pretty gruesome; the general opinion was that they'd seen the last of me.

No use my kit going to waste. My DIY bed was a prize legacy, they had a draw for that. The rest was shared out among the others; there was no use trying to send stuff after me, it wasn't worth it and the chances were that it wouldn't reach me if they did. (This was standard procedure - anything personal or of value would, of course, be secured for safe keeping by the Adjutant or Intelligence Officer - we are talking about clothing, bedding and towels etc., which you could quickly and cheaply replace).

Six weeks later the bad penny turned up. A shamefaced procession turned up with various items of my kit: "Sorry about this, old man - didn't think you'd be needing it any more!" And of course I recovered my bed - not that I would need it for long, for all six Vultee Vengeance Squadrons were ordered to cease operations in June '44, and we would shortly be moving out from the Arakan (as it happened, never to return). "Worse things happen at sea !"

That done, we went off to Calcutta for our leave (transport no problem, you could always cadge a ride on one of the many 'Daks' which were continually shuttling Cal-Chittagong-all points- east and back. I will not describe our leave now, as I plan to make a separate Post out of Calcutta; it is worth a Post on its own

-------------------------------------------------------

(Part III)

Back on the squadron, the engineers debated. The engine troubles which had plagued the first Vengeance the year before had mostly been cured, and the most likely explanation for the failure was a lucky shot hitting an oil tank, cooler or line. But in the condition I left the aircraft, it might have been hit by a 3.7 AA shell and look no worse ! They returned an open verdict.

In an earlier Post I have worked out that the Sqdn finally moved to Samungli (Quetta) on 6.8.44, so it stayed on in the Arakan doing nothing much for three monsoon months. Early In that time it must have left whatever 'kutcha' strip it was on and fallen back on a paved strip (I think Chittagong or Dohazari) or they would never have got the aircraft out of the mud to fly away. And both these places were rail points, from which the ground party could move. I have only vague memories of that time, but I flew a couple of times (non-op) in July, and I think I was loaned to 244 Group in Chittagong to do some paperwork, so I wasn't altogether idle.

Once the decision had been taken to stop VV operations, there was absolutely no reason to leave us in the Arakan a day longer. For although there were dozens of 'kutcha' strips, there were relatively few with a paved runway and drainage: these should have been left for the Hurricanes, Beaufighters and Mohawks who could still do useful work even in monsoon conditions. We were just cluttering up the place.

We became entitled to a "Wound Stripe" apiece. This daft and short-lived thing may have been peculiar to India. I never heard of it after I came back. The idea was similar to the American "Purple Heart", at which we poked much fun (it was said that you could get it for being nicked by the camp barber!) But it was entered on our records, and I seem to remember that I had an inch-long gold lace stripe to sew on my khaki tunic sleeve. As we never wore tunics (only bush jackets or shirts), it didn't seem worth bothering with.

"Stew" and I had been amazingly lucky: we both knew we'd live the rest of our lives on borrowed time. It's a pity that no photographs were AFAIK, taken of the wreck - it would have been quite a memento in my logbook. But then, after all, down the years I've had a reminder every time I've looked in a mirror!

(He and I parted soon after this, as I was posted away from Samungli, but were reunited the following year, when he rejoined me as my "Adjutant" in Cannanore. Having come out to India much earlier, he went home earlier. I looked him up once (in Southend) after the war, but then, I'm sorry to say, we lost contact).

Many years later I watched a TV documentary about an oil sheikh's new racecourse complex somewhere in the Gulf. The architect was mentioned. There couldn't be two of that name! He appeared. Incredulous, I looked at this little, bald, fat chap - a far cry from the wiry young man with the Byronic looks I remembered. (Ah, the ravages of time !)

There is a present-day slant on the tale of my crash. In any forced landing a pilot has to make the best of a bad job. He can do no other. In two cases which have hit the headlines in the last year or so (the 777 which just managed to flop over the fence into Heathrow and the Airbus ditched in the Hudson river), the pilots concerned have been surprised to find themselves publicy fêted as "heroes".

My case was the same as theirs (in kind, though much smaller in degree). Naked self-preservation was the name of the game. Three questions arise: Did I do a good job? - Yes! Was I "incredibly" (in the true sense of that now much abused word) lucky? - Yes! Was I a "hero", in any sense? - Sorry folks, but No! I did what had to be done, and so did they, and we all got away with it, and there's no more to be said.

That's all for the moment, Goodnight, all, Danny42C.

---------------------

EPILOGUE
________

Since that February morning in Burma, long, long ago, I've often looked back on it and it's become obvious where I went wrong. I should never have decided, in the absence of other symptons, that the oil pressure gauge was at fault. I should have "played safe", assumed the worst and acted accordingly. I should have hung on to my 3,000 feet to the end, dumped my bombs "safe" (there was no provision for dumping fuel), and perhaps lowered 20°-30° flap (which would have given me a lttle more gliding distance if the engine failed).

The coast was not far away, I could have followed the shoreline North until I was close to base. There were miles of sandy beaches. Apart from a few inshore net fishermen, these would be mostly empty, if necessary a wheels-up landing should be easy.

Then I should never have come down into the circuit, but kept my height until overhead the strip (as it happened, the engine would have kept going till then), and used the "90° Left" or "270° Left" procedure taught me in the U.S. for forced landings. (How many times had I practiced this at Carlstrom Field in Florida !) From 3,000 ft, wheels down and 120-130 mph, it should have been child's play to dead-stick it down at one end of the strip or other (there wasn't much wind anyway, just a light sea breeze across the runway in any case).

Instead, you know what happened ! It was amazing luck that I wasn't killed (but if I had been it would have been my own fault). But poor "Stew" (who survived with me) wouldn't have deserved to die on that account.

But then, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing ? :ok:

Danny.

* * *

Fantome

18th Jun 2016, 23:54

Danny42C -

(it come t' pieces in me 'and, Mum) !

now there's a little quip or bon mot from way way back.
it goes hand in hand with her ladyship pointing out to a maid
how dusty the piano was - "Emily . . . I could write my name
right here. ." . . . . "Oh ma'am . . . ain't it wunnerful to be
so edic-ated!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
. . . can't tell you what this has to do with the price of fish .. . but . . .

Old mate Ted Sly ('The Luck of the Draw') with a stream of RAAF
war stories to rival our Danny used to say to any visitor leaving his home in
Byron Bay . . . .. "Remember . . . . fly high. . . and you'll live a long time"

. . . . and of course, as mentioned here before. . . Harry Purvis (also
in the air force for the war years) . .. . after every landing just about he'd turn round and say…

or just murmur to himself . . .. "got away with it again "

Somewhere there's a 1942 photo of Harry standing in front of a Beaufort with the
undercart torn off after a tricky landing at Bachelor in the Northern Territory.
Harry has his arms outstretched wide with a bemused look on his good-looking prize fighter's dial ..
supposedly declaiming

ALONE I DID IT!

Danny42C

19th Jun 2016, 15:30

Fantome,

How about:

"Fly low and slow, and plenty of top rudder on the corners"
or
"Slip your Wing
Into the Deck
That's the Thing
Saves your Neck"
or
"I've just done a wonderful Loop"........"Horizontal or Vertical ?"
or
"Stalling between Two Fools"......(Churchill?)
or
"I thought you had control ?"

Danny.

NigG

19th Jun 2016, 19:08

Danny

What an incredible story. I read it twice, and will read it again. How it was the bombs didn't detonate, or the fuel go up, is beyond comprehension. Perhaps the designers at Vultee had a hand in it. You're incredibly modest too. In your Epilogue, you criticise your decision-making, effectively making-out that the whole thing would have run without incident had you only done this and that. Seems to me that your decision-making was entirely reasonable, given the paucity of accurate information: it was perfectly 'obvious' that the fuel gauge was faulty; and you had no clear reason to suspect a genuine oil supply failure. It is a miracle, of course, that you didn't join the ranks of other excellent young men, whose names (largely forgotten) are engraved on stone memorials.

When I was about eleven, in the 1960s, I was attending a Prep School in the south of England. Quite a few of the staff were ex-wartime servicemen. Two of these I remember well. Major Duffy and Brigadier MacKenzie. Both were very kind, unlike some of the stricter members of staff. Yet we were in respectful awe of them. Major Duffy had a deep red, jagged scar beneath his eye. As a Royal Marine, he had been hit by shrapnel as he prepared to descend the side of a ship and into a landing craft. Brigadier MacKenzie had lost his arm. His tank had been knocked-out in the Western Desert, when his unit was over-run. Later, lying in a hospital bed, a senior Afrika Korps officer stopped to talk to him and express regret that he had had to lose a limb. It was Field Marshall Rommel.

I think, Danny, with your battle scar, you stand among heroes.

Danny42C

20th Jun 2016, 10:50

NigG,
...How it was the bombs didn't detonate, or the fuel go up, is beyond comprehension. Perhaps the designers at Vultee had a hand in it...
This was a result of my coming in fast. I knew that with a full bomb load and almost full fuel load, I had to put it down smoothly, and appear to have done so, although I have no recollection of the event (a common effect of concussion, I'm told).

Once on the ground, medium sized HE Bombs, "safe" with protective caps locked onto the fuzes by the fuzing links, can comfortably survive most frontal impacts. They can be be "dumped" from enormous heights, tens of thousands of feet and, streamlined as they are, probably attain a terminal velocity of 6-700 mph and still not explode, but bury themselves deep in the ground. "Duds" from WWII are still being found far down.

Fuel was a different matter. Nearly all of it was in the wings, and they were knocked off by trees early on. "Jungle" in the Arakan was not Amazonian rainforest, but more like open English woodland. They told me that the wings remained more or less intact, the tanks were self sealing, and of course the pumps were off. The 20 gallon "trap tank" underneath me contained quite enough to cremate us, but as the tank was in the forward part of the fuselage and as that (with the cockpits) didn't break up, we were all right. And of course, we were very lucky indeed. And the VV was "built like the Forth Bridge" - and that helped !
...Seems to me that your decision-making was entirely reasonable, given the paucity of accurate information: it was perfectly 'obvious' that the fuel gauge was faulty; and you had no clear reason to suspect a genuine oil supply failure...
No, I can't exculpate myself as easily as that. I should have assumed the worst scenario from the outset and acted accordingly (shows the danger of jumping to concusions !)
...It was Field Marshal Rommel...
(From Wiki): [his] "consistent decency in the treatment of allied prisoners earned him the respect of many opponents, including Claude Auchinleck, Archibald Wavell, George S. Patton, and Bernard Montgomery".[440]

There were other great gentlemen in those days. This excerpt from my #4277 on p.214 of "Pilot's Brevet" relates to the late, well loved ACM Sir "Gus" Walker. (You may find that whole page amusing ["CAS" is Chief of the Air Staff, btw, by the way], a 4-star Air Chief Marshal).
...There was a heartwarming story, dating from before I got to Strubby, that a little lad of 9 or 10 had lost his right forearm in a tractor accident on some Lincolnshire farm. "Gus" made a point of visiting him in hospital as soon as he came round from surgery, ("Gus" wearing full kit and regalia), to have a chat and show the little chap that all was not lost - as he himself had suffered exactly that same injury...D.

...I think, Danny, with your battle scar, you stand among heroes...
We'll agree to differ. As I said before: "I did what had to be done, and got away with it, and there's no more to be said"....:ok:

Danny.

Fantome

20th Jun 2016, 11:27

never met a war vet yet who was not uncomfortable with any mention
even hinting at 'heroic'. And then again it has often been said that those who deserved a gong and were left out far far exceeded those who could put up
their ribbons.

but I did not come in here to pass on these thoughts . .. . I was thinking
along far more of the light hearted than the deadly serious.
(Peter O'Toole said when asked how it was on location with Guinness making Lawrence that he never looked forward to the day's start when more often than not AG would slip into the tent with a face like a plate of condemned veal.)

No . .. talk of loops vertical or horizontal immediately calls to mind the late Chris Braund. . .he of the pronounced stammer. As recounted elsewhere here Chris had bought a disposals Mustang from Tocumwal and after legitimising all the paper work required to have your own private WW11 fighter was often invited to perform at air shows.

Picture Chris early one Sunday morning transiting Sydney for the Naval air base at Nowra down the south coast to attend an airshow. .. As it was so quiet on the tower frequency and as the morning was so glorious he requested an orbit of the Harbour Bridge. Report on conclusion says the tower. So what does the perpetual boy do .. . he goes down under the bridge . .you can almost hear the Merlin's reverberating throb coming back off the walls of Kirribilli House . . then up up and over in a graceful arc. Well next day no surprise he was on the mat at DCA headquarters at Waverton in Sydney. His defence? . . " I requested an or. .or. .orbit. Permission was g.g.g.granted . Orbit can b.b.be d.d.ddefined as 'to d.d.d.describe a c.c.circle about." N.n.n.n nothing about wh.wh.whether it is h.h.h.h.horizontal or v.v.v.vertical." The regional director (an old warbird himself as Chris was) laughed himself hoarse and decided it never happened.

Wander00

20th Jun 2016, 11:59

Gus Walker, now there was a man to look up to

MPN11

20th Jun 2016, 18:50

Cyclops Brown was another, IMHO. There were some great leaders of men from that generation, with personality and style in addition to skill.

Wander00

20th Jun 2016, 19:13

IMHO Ken Hayr was another, and Aunty Joan Hopkins.

Danny42C

21st Jun 2016, 14:29

Air Marshal Sir Richard ("Batchy") Atcherley........

Wander00

21st Jun 2016, 15:05

Up you the Abandoned Earl, oh and Sir Ivor Broom

NigG

21st Jun 2016, 15:57

...Picture Chris early one Sunday morning transiting Sydney for the Naval air base at Nowra down the south coast to attend an airshow. .. As it was so quiet on the tower frequency and as the morning was so glorious he requested an orbit of the Harbour Bridge...

Funny story and a wily character, by the sound of it! Flying under bridges brings to mind one of Arthur's tales. It gives some insight into the naivety of his early flying, rather than any kind of 'wiliness':

'In early 1939, after flying the 'Audax' and 'Hart', I converted on to the Fairey 'Battle' - a much larger bomber with a Rolls Royce 1000 hp engine. There was no dual-control version, so for the first time, I had to fly it having read the pilot's notes, and sat in the cockpit with an instructor on the wing, pointing out the numerous switches, knobs and levers. Then, followed by starting the massive engine, I was off into the air; most exhilarating!

It was the first aircraft I had flown that had an enclosed cockpit, with a sliding canopy over my head to keep out the wind and rain. The 'Battle' was also a much faster aircraft.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture372-fairey-battle.jpg

One morning my instructor, Sergeant Beaumont (later to become a famous test pilot) said: 'I think you can do a cross-country flight today to Perth'. From Hanworth in Middlesex, to Perth in Scotland was 560 miles, further than I had ever flown. Beaumont checked the route I proposed to fly, but didn't check the weather en route.

I took-off and the weather was fine and sunny - until I reached the Midlands, where I flew into torrential rain and low clouds. There was no navigational aids in those days and there was no radio in the cockpit . Visibility was limited and I was anxious about hitting the Pennine hills. I was not very experienced at flying 'blind' on instruments. So I decided to turn right and thus came out of the heavy rain, continuing the flight up the east coast in clear weather. Eventually I reached the the Firth of Forth and saw a large steel railway bridge spanning the river estuary. I thought 'That looks inviting!' and, on the spur of the moment, decided to fly under it. There was plenty of space between the spans as I flew low over the water at 200 mph. I was later to learn, somewhat ruefully, that flying under bridges was forbidden and was a court-martial offence.

I found the airfield at Perth, landed after two hours in the air, and had a cup of tea while the aircraft was being refuelled. Then took-off again to return to Hanworth. It was a lovely day in Scotland and again I forgot about the weather. Sure enough, as I flew south, I again flew into low cloud and heavy rain. If I had been sensible, I would have repeated my earlier remedy and turned left to fly down the east coast. But instead I turned right and found myself flying into even worse conditions. I descended lower and lower, trying to see the ground. Then suddenly a mast flashed past my left wing, then dozens more appeared, rising up into the clouds. How I avoided hitting any of them, I will never know. I later learned that I had flown through Rugby Radio Station, with hundreds of aerial cables strung between the high masts! To have got through, flying so low in bad visibility, was a miracle. I hadn't even known they existed!

My next moment of worry was when the engine suddenly began to run roughly and backfire. My immediate thought was that I had engine-failure. Then it hit me: I hadn't changed tanks. My left wing tanks were dry and I needed to change to those on the right. I quickly changed-over while pumping madly on my throttle. Almost at once, the engine picked-up and continued to run normally. Peering through the mist, I later spotted large white letters: 'Whipsnade Zoo' and set course for home - somewhat chastened after my day's various escapades.'

Danny42C

21st Jun 2016, 16:34

NigG.
... so for the first time, I had to fly it having read the pilot's notes, and sat in the cockpit with an instructor on the wing...
The experience of all the single seater drivers for the next twenty years (we survived).
...The 'Battle' was also a much faster aircraft...
Not fast enough ! In France in 1940 the Me109s would make mincemeat of them.
...Peering through the mist, I later spotted large white letters: 'Whipsnade Zoo' and set course for home...
Happy days ! Another strategem was to find a railway line, follow it to a station, and make a low pass to read the station name board on a platform. In the war, they took them all away (so as to stop the Luftwaffe from doing the same): this caused much angst among travellers looking for their destinations, as they were now dependent on hearing the station name bawled out by porters, and these were often not very easy to understand in the local patois.

Danny.

Wander00

21st Jun 2016, 16:39

Which is why, I understand, so many pilots thought they were at "Cheltenham", a misreading of the "Gentlemen" sign

Danny42C

25th Jun 2016, 21:32

NigG,

This Thread has gone quiet. Found this overlooked gem on your #165:
...in an Airspeed 'Oxford', in order to collect a sofa that had been re-upholstered. [Not sure how easy it is to do that in the modern RAF!]...
Rings a bell with me. Extract from my #4252 on "Pilot's Brevet":
...Danny Exposes Himself to Ridicule.

My second gaffe some time later was really not my fault, but it was to go down in Manby legend. There was nothing on the board (ATC Nirvana !). R/T monitor pipes up: "M-ABCD on 117.9 for you, sir". What followed I will never forget.

Verbatim: "M-CD, Manby Approach, pass your message"...."Manby, CD approaching from the North at 2,000 ft, range 20 miles, request landing instructions"...."CD, 11 left, (QFE), circuit clear, call joining"....

(Manby is Prior Permission Only, we have had no advice of this visitor, but that is not my business: I cannot turn him away - but he must answer for it when he gets down)...."CD, what is the purpose of your visit ?" .... "To drop off a horse" .... "Say again" ...."Horse"...."Spell it !"...."H-O-R-S E" ....."What is your aircraft type ?"...."Anson".

My brain reeled. Reason tottered on her throne. You clutch desperately at straws. "Perhaps it's a very small horse", I consoled myself, "might a Shetland pony go in all right ?" (In my defence, I must add that only a mere dozen years before I'd seen Dak-loads of mules go off, and wished the pilots the best of British).

Now the final bitter twist in the story: Manby had an Equitation Club. My equally stupefied Assistant grabbed the Station phone book: "It's S/Ldr (X) i/c, sir"...."Ring him, tell him he's got a horse coming in in about ten minutes". S/Ldr (X) gets dragged out of Important Conference, not well pleased, organises groom and whistles up horsebox to the Tower. Anson comes in, parks, groom advances with horse-tackle at the ready. Crew see horsebox arrive alongside Tower.

Out of Anson comes a wooden hobby-horse. It appears that this was an adjunct to one of the silly games that are played at Dining-in nights. Station (X) had borrowed it from Manby for some occasion, and were now returning it. Pilots roll about Anson in mirth when they realise that they've not only fooled the Controller, but the College as well. (This will keep them in free beer for yonks). Even with door closed, Anson rocks on its oleos for some time before crew sufficiently composed to ask for taxy clearance.

Danny is Buffoon du jour. Joke is all round Manby within the hour, round Strubby by nightfall and all round Lincolnshire by weekend. Back at Strubby my Bendix crew shakes heads sorrowfully. First the HT door, then the stuck Matador, now this. Always said the poor chap must have been out in the tropic sun far too long.

Next time two more disasters, but neither of my doing...
And
...It was the first aircraft I had flown that had an enclosed cockpit, with a sliding canopy over my head to keep out the wind and rain...
Luxury ! But I had to do all the work myself till late 1945, when I flew the P-47 (the first aircraft I'd met with a powered canopy).

Danny.

NigG

26th Jun 2016, 17:51

Excellent, Danny! Have to say, your story elicited good whinny from me. Talking of Silly games, I recall, on one occasion in the 70s, we invited several RAF 'Puma' aircrew to join us for our Dinner Night, after we, a TA battalion, had been training with them. We were thoroughly impressed by their repertoire of Games... more extensive and more amusing than ours, though ours were pretty good. But a hobby-horse? Mind boggles... sounds wild! :)

Changing the subject, I recently came upon a certain 'Count Manfred Beckett Czernin' in Wikipedia. I read his name in one of Arthur's little asides, albeit with Arthur mis-spelling his name and with inaccurate background information. At the time Arthur was still at Hanworth, where he had learned to fly, and had, a few months earlier, gained his Wings. The war had just started... the 'Phoney War'... and Arthur, now mobilised, was waiting for his turn to be posted out. This is what he wrote:

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture385-hawker-hart.jpg

[One of the people I encountered at this time] was Count Czerin [sic] - a Polish pilot who had escaped to England to join the RAF. I was asked to check him out, after he reported to the flying school. We took off in a dual-controlled 'Hart' trainer and climbed south to 3000 feet. I then asked him to do a loop for me. Naturally I expected him to open the throttle fully, put the nose down to increase speed, before starting the aerobatic. Instead, he just pulled the 'stick' (control column) hard back into his stomach. The aircraft then stalled, and was just about to go into a spin towards the ground, before I quickly regained control. Surprisingly to me, Czerin later became one of the top-scoring fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain. I always though that ex-flying instructors would never make good fighter pilots because they flew too precisely. By contrast, Czerin's flying was probably so unpredictable that he totally out-foxed the opposition. He nearly put me in an early grave. The Luftwaffe couldn't have stood a chance!

I note from the Wiki article that Czernin was, at that time, an ex-RAF Short Service pilot. Evidently he was a tad 'rusty', judging by Arthur's small 'moment of entertainment'.

Danny42C

26th Jun 2016, 20:46

NigG,
...He nearly put me in an early grave...
Never having been a QFI myself, but have always thought that being in the back seat of (say) a Harvard on grass in the blackout (with a few paraffin "goosenecks") and a Prune in front doing his first dual circuits and landings, must have been about the most terrifying ordeal known to man.

No wonder most of them begged to get on (or get back on) the comparative safety of 'ops' ASAP !

Danny.

Danny42C

27th Jun 2016, 13:25

NigG,
...We took off in a dual-controlled 'Hart' trainer...
Around 1937, rich cousin Tony had one of these (terribly expensive) flying models - and a Hornby LMS ""Royal Scot" 00 set - on both of which I gazed in hopeless envy! (Flew well, too - the Hart, I mean).

Danny.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTlGxPFNWShK2-6QD0z7vFxjfxu1cScdD6bFINfqX-AUt-spFJf

PS: if you go onto "Internet Explorer", it's there en claire

Stanwell

27th Jun 2016, 13:36

Just love the 'winding-box'.
Certainly beats winding the prop/elastic with one's index finger.

Danny42C

27th Jun 2016, 14:05

Stanwell,

Don't remember at what stage the box would start rotating round the handle " (Spitfire XIV ?)

Danny.

Stanwell

27th Jun 2016, 14:25

Ooh yes. They must have been a bit of a handful.
Perhaps you have a story or two on finding out about that - over on the 'Brevet' thread, of course.

MPN11

27th Jun 2016, 14:51

I wonder what the "triple insertor rod" does? Or is that a case of 'too much information'?

Stanwell

27th Jun 2016, 15:47

I wondered about that too - but was too polite to ask.
Similarly, "motors"??

I guess it's just an earlier example of that advertising maxim ... "If you can't convince 'em, confuse 'em".
.

MPN11

27th Jun 2016, 16:15

"Motors" = Extra strength rubber bands, I suspect!

With a special lubricant. And a triple insertor rod. OMG, those pre-War perverts :)

Danny42C

27th Jun 2016, 16:37

Stanwell et al,

At a guess (ought to be able to remember !) "motor" meant "laggy band".

Another guess: when band busts, you would need to hook one end of new laggy band onto a hook down inside the end of (monocoque) end. "Insertion Tool" might do this job (?)

IIRC, band never bust as we never wound it up fully in case it flew out of garden and could (theoretically) reach East Coast main line just behind St. Peter's Hill in Huntingdon. (Boy's paradise, as "Mallard" used to come belting through at full bore - and the house shook !)

Both biplanes were detachable from centre section for packing (and flew off in a crash !). After a few of these, did not fly it any more as it was such a fine static model to risk being destroyed in this way, it just "flew" around by hand with accompanying "Broom, broom" ad lib.

Will put in a few words on the Great Thread as suggested.

Danny.

PS: KY jelly should be a good rubber lubricant, too.

mmitch

27th Jun 2016, 17:19

In the 1940s I was lucky enough to be given a tea chest (remember them?) full of second hands toys by a neighbour who went off to Uni. There was a monoplane like a Hurricane, all silver with the same box rewind 'system' It may have been made by Frog? The wings were made of something flexible that (for awhile) absorbed impacts. Danny is quite correct regarding the 'Insertion tool' use. I had forgotten that until now.
mmitch.

Danny42C

27th Jun 2016, 18:02

mmitch,

There was a smaller, much cheaper model with the same idea. I had one. It may have been like the one in your tea-chest. Don't think it was made to represent the Hurricane (or anything else).

Danny.
http://c0728562.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/2506111175_HR.jpg

mmitch

27th Jun 2016, 20:31

Danny, as a 5 year old maybe I wished it was a Hurricane! Through the fog of 65 years that does look like it. :)
mmitch.

Union Jack

27th Jun 2016, 22:08

It may be of passing interest that the serial number of the Frog Interceptor, namely J9842, was apparently that of a Westland Wapiti, with which the Interceptor appears to share a slight resemblance - apart of course from being a monoplane rather than a biplane.:ok:

Jack

Stanwell

27th Jun 2016, 23:02

Ah, thank you, Union Jack - I'd wondered about the serial.
At first glance, I thought it looked like something that might have come from the Fairey company.
I later realised why.
Their Long-range Monoplane of 1928 was of very similar proportions (though not size) and configuration (shoulder-wing).
In 1933, one of them set the world long distance record at 5410 miles

sycamore

28th Jun 2016, 09:44

I think the wings are on upside down;serials underneath,unless it flew inverted....

MPN11

28th Jun 2016, 10:01

I think the wings are on upside down;serials underneath,unless it flew inverted....Serial placement noted here too, and no serials shown on the box artwork. Installing the wings upside down might have affected its flying characteristics, though - perhaps that explains the damage to the tip if the fin? ;)

Union Jack ... my Reference Book [Bruce Robertson's 'British Military Aircraft Serials'] agrees with your perspective - J9842 was one of a batch of 37 x Westland Wapiti IIA.

[MPN11 removes anorak]

Danny42C

28th Jun 2016, 13:13

Jack,
...Wapiti, with which the Interceptor appears to share a slight resemblance - apart of course from being a monoplane rather than a biplane..
for which I nominate you for the "Guarded Aircraft Recognition" * Award of the Year. But, there again, the Navy doesn't need aircraft recognition - they just "shoot first and ask questions afterwards (ie open fire on anything which comes within gun range in the air). In practice, it worked quite well, as every RAF pilot knew this, and would keep out of range of any warship until he had made sure it was friendly, and had "made his number" with them.

Note *: The "Highly Derogatory Order of the Irremovable Digit" was gazetted in Tee Emm to a Pilot Officer xxxxxx for Guarded Recognition; in his Combat Report he had stated: "I thought it might be a Hurricane, so I only gave it a short burst !"

Stanwell,

I at first thought "Miles Magister". But it always pays to research on Wiki: seems the Interceptor dated from 1932, the "Maggie" only from 1937.

I suppose the model would have to be mid (detachable) wing, as it would be difficult to design a strong attachment to the lower curved surface.

MPN11,

Anoraks welcome in our CyberCrewRoom !

Danny.

NigG

28th Jun 2016, 16:27

Both biplanes were detachable from centre section for packing (and flew off in a crash !). After a few of these, did not fly it any more as it was such a fine static model to risk being destroyed in this way, it just "flew" around by hand with accompanying "Broom, broom" ad lib.

Permit me an immodest sneer. When we were schoolboys we made flying model aircraft in true Baden-Powell spirit. None of this dainty, ready-made nonsense. A Balsa wood framework, tissue paper and dope. The dope would be brushed on to the tissue paper to shrink it down onto the frame and make the whole thing rigid. The constricting force of this shrinkage would require the balsa framework to be held firm by pinning it down to a board. Envy of someone else's developing model, could be assuaged by discreetly detaching the said pins after they had brushed-on the dope and had finished for the day. Unrestrained, the dope would twist and fix the wings into the most hopeless shapes. A knock-out before it even left the production line! (That bit wasn't quite in Baden-Powell spirit, of course! :E )

MPN11

28th Jun 2016, 19:14

NigG ... not in accord with the Scouts' Code ... remove your woggle and stand in the corner.

Danny42C

28th Jun 2016, 19:25

NigG,
...The dope would be brushed on to the tissue paper to shrink it...
We used to call it "banana oil". And I've done my share of that, too. The balsa was ¼ in square, as I recall.

It was only rich boys who got gifts like the FROG Hawker Hart. £2/2/0 adjusted for Cost Inflation would be £105 today. Adjusted for Wage Inflation, it would be three times that figure - £315. Wage inflation is a far better comparison, as the key question was: How many hours did Dad have to work to buy this ?

Danny.

NigG

29th Jun 2016, 19:37

NigG ... not in accord with the Scouts' Code ... remove your woggle and stand in the corner.

Ha!.. If only.

When I was at school, standing in the corner, hands behind your back, was a penalty for minor misdemeanors, like running in the corridor. Wrecking someone else's model plane would have merited: 'Go and stand outside my study and wait for me there!' Your fate would be both certain and painful. :{ Only one boy, in my time, developed what might best be called ' effective counter-measures'. Knowing that he was destined for a spanking from the headmaster's hand, he took an exercise book and thrust it down the back of his pants. Before doing so, he pierced the front cover with several drawing pins, which then projected, hedgehog-like, to defend his posterior. (I suppose one might reasonably call it an 'arsenal'!)

On being required to bend over the arm of an easy chair, his ruse was of course quite evident to the headmaster. Apparently, so flabbergasted was he at the viciousness of the boy's intent, which of course equally matched his own, that he ordered him out of the study, and the boy went free. He was, of course, thereafter regarded with some awe: in effect, he was 'the boy who beat his headmaster'! :ok:

Stanwell

30th Jun 2016, 05:08

I learned something about "Scout's Honour" many years ago.

I was party to a prank (I hesitate to say instigator) at the expense of a fellow whom we regarded as a bit of a smartarse, bordering on bully, which caused
him moderate discomfiture.
Well, he went bawling to the deputy Scoutmaster, didn't he?

Come the dismissal parade, the question was asked, "Would those responsible for that, please step forward!"
Nobody moved.
The question was asked a couple more times, each with elevating intoned menace and still, nobody moved - after all, it wasn't all that serious, we reckoned
and, also, there were no witnesses, were there?
And besides, this kid was a pr1ck.

Now comes the heavy bit.
The Scoutmaster himself was called into it.
Drawing himself up to his full height (about 5'6"), and lowering his voice an octave, he roared ... "On your Scout's Honour, I want one person - just one,
that'll do - to step forward!"

Oh dear, thinks naïve little me, this puts a whole new complexion on things, doesn't it?
I duly took one pace forward.

Cutting a long story short, I refused to identify my co-conspirators and was banished to the Pointless Forest for a couple of weeks for the heinous sins
of initially being reluctant to self-incriminate .. and worse, to subsequently decline to dob in my mates down in the trenches.
"Scout's Honour" ... my arce!

p.s. No flying model aeroplanes were damaged in that incident, I hasten to add.
.

Danny42C

30th Jun 2016, 10:49

MPN11 (#188) and NigG (#190),
...When I was at school, standing in the corner, hands behind your back, was a penalty for minor misdemeanors, like running in the corridor...
Curiously, the US Army Air Corps adopted a similar idea for their Aviation 'Kay-Dets' (which included us, as they couldn't figure out what a 'LAC' was)' For minor offences, you were awarded "demerits". When a sufficient number of these had accumulated, you had to work them off "walking the ramp" (punishment drill).

When I was being educated at the tender hands of the Irish Christian Brothers in Blackpool, they had a far more ferocious system. Every Brother had a "Strap", with which he was authorised to inflict instant punishment on any evildoer detected. This instrument was perhaps ¼in thick, 15in long and 1½in wide of laminated leather, sewn together and very flexible. One end was shaped into a hand grip, so as to make it more effective.

It was administered on the palm of an outstretched hand (to inflict maximum pain without leaving any trace except for a temporary redness). St. Joseph's was a rugby school (two of our Brothers had been capped for Ireland in my time): the Brothers were mostly tough young men. The sight of one, striding dowm the corridor towards you, the handle of the strap sticking out from the black trouser pocket through the slit in his black cassock (for all the world like a Wild West gunslinger) was enough to make any small boy quail.

For really capital offences, you were sent round to the Headmaster's Study (he was the only one who could use the cane on the backside). But, as every schoolboy of my generation knew, a few folded newspapers stuffed down the trousers helped enormously.

Not far away, at lordly Stonyhurst, the Jesuits had a similar thing called a "ferula". Whether it was more digniifed to be walloped in Latin, I do not know. Ah, the joys of a Public School Education ! (The Headmaster of St. Joseph's would have been sent round to the Servant's Entrance if he dared to appear at the Headmasters' Conference !)

Danny.

Danny42C

30th Jun 2016, 12:47

Stanwell (#191),
...I learned something about "Scout's Honour" many years ago...
Clearly, you were a Gentleman, Sir (there aren't many of us left !)

As "Aviation Cadets" (or reasonable facsimiles thereof) we were supposed to be governed by an "Honor System" handed down from West Point. Not only were we supposed to behave impeccably ourselves, but to report any infractions of the rules by our fellows.

An example would be, if you saw the chap in the row ahead at an exam "cribbing", you must "blow the whistle" on him. This ran absolutely contrary to our instincts; we made it clear to our Instructors that we would have nothing to do with it, if we transgressed, it would be up to them to catch us. Which they frequently did, and many 'demerits' were gained that way.

The practice of "hazing" served to reinforce a "them and us" mentality, the "Upper Class" came to believe that they actually were superior beings to the "Lower Classmen" whom they were entitled to humiliate in every possible way. Again this was anathema to us; from our standpoint, the whole student body should band together against the 'enemy' (the Instructional staff).

Of course, "Hazing" was a problem only between the last American class of Cadets and the first British one. At Carlstrom Field in Florida, (two Classes before mine) there was supposed to have been a riot in which the British Lower Class set upon the American Upper Class in a body, prevailed and threw them and their possessions into the camp pool. "Hazing" was suspended. (I have never seen any good evidence for this, and it's too late to find any now).

All this is a tiny blot on the cordial relations which all of us in the "Arnold Scheme" enjoyed with our hosts in the Army Air Corps. It may be ancient history now, but the (still neutral) US offered pilot and navigator training in their own schools to British airmen. In all, we sent out 7,000+ LACs up to 1943 (and got 4,000+ pilots back - the "washout" rate was horrendous). They also provided the six "British Flying Training Schools" (RAF commanded, but with mainly American civil flying instructors) which provided another 3,000+ pilots for us (with a much lower loss rate). This was of incalculable help in the darkest period of the war: roughly balancing the pilot losses in Bomber Command throughout.

Danny.

NigG

30th Jun 2016, 17:40

Stanwell

I have to say I view you, now, with renewed respect!

But I have to own-up to having been in the same testing position as your Scout Master. As a House Prefect at school, aged 18, I had recently been reading Montgomery's advice to young officers. In this he stressed the importance of 'moral courage'. That is, not courage that might be displayed under fire, but courage to 'do the right thing'; to 'do your duty'. His admonition came to me when, on one occasion, I happened to be passing the stairs to the more senior (fifth former) boys dormitory. It was after 'lights out' and the noise descending the stairwell was very substantial.

My dilemma: was I to pretend I heard nothing and walk on? Or should moral courage hold sway, and I ascend the stairs to inflict a suitable punishment on the miscreants. I knew that my fellow-prefects, had they been in the same situation, would have ignored it. But I decided that, guided by the wisdom of Montgomery, I was made of sterner stuff. As I came to the top of the creaking stairs, the hullabaloo fell to pin-drop silence. I walked in and gravely demanded to know who had been talking. Continued silence... not a soul would own-up. Thus the beginning of a long stand-off. After every lunchtime, thereon, the whole dormitory was required to assemble and await my arrival; whereupon, my request would be repeated: 'Who had been talking?' Day after day, no one would own-up. I even delivered homilies on courage and honour, but still no breakthrough. Eventually, I was starting to get desperate, lest I had to admit defeat and eat humble pie. My final proposition was that all I required was for one person to take the blame. Like Jesus himself, he would accept the ultimate penalty and redeem the sins of all. The ploy worked... at last I had a culprit!

It was widely held that he would really be 'for it', having held-out for so many days. But pride being such as it is, I bathed in my moral victory and felt no need to pursue the matter further. Of course, to my mind, I was right 'up there', ranking with a certain, distinguished Field Marshal. :rolleyes:

NigG

30th Jun 2016, 19:14

...the Jesuits had a similar thing called a "ferula". Whether it was more digniifed to be walloped in Latin, I do not know.

I'm not much given to belly-laughing. I was disconcerted to have someone put their head around the door to check if I was alright! Brilliant writing, of course. I had never conceived of corporal punishment having a classical component, but I guess it's been around for long enough, and longer. I did get gym-shoed by my French master, however. Ostensibly because I was reading something discreetly under my desk during the lesson. In fact it was for smirking when the said master had one of his uncontrollable blinking fits. (He was, of course, known as 'Blinkers'.) That's the thing about getting thrashed... so often it was about a Master 'getting even' after he had been treated disrespectfully. :*

Stanwell

30th Jun 2016, 19:29

Ah! .. The Catholic schoolboy's whipping club, eh?
Don't you worry, mate - we made sure they prematurely aged.
Just took a bit longer to sort the kiddy-fiddlers out, that's all.
Some sick people amongst that lot managed tarnish the really good ones - and that's sad.

Stanwell

30th Jun 2016, 21:32

NigG,
Thanks for that profound post.
While this thread started off as a tribute to your distinguished father, I'm pleased that the Mods have allowed us the latitude to digress
in a similar way to the "Thread of Threads".

We've all, to a greater or lesser extent, been both pupils and teachers.
I was a military instructor at 20 ... Ahem.. What the **** did I know?
God knows, I'm still hoping to learn why I was put on this earth.

No doubt, you'd noticed my sharp little post above to do with the joys of undergoing, let's say, an Irish Catholic education.
I should say here and now that nothing undue happened to me personally, but..
The wheel of Karma turns only slowly - but, very surely, I'd noticed.
Whatever, I'm very grateful for the overall experience and, I'm sure Danny would agree, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

Now, I've only two things that I really want to whinge about...
1. Due to CDV, I wasn't able to pursue my real ambition, military or civil - that is, to have someone pay me to do it. - And, that was a disappointment.
2. The other thing is that I really don't have anything to whinge about - and that's a worry.

Cheers. :ok:

Danny42C

30th Jun 2016, 22:03

Stanwell,

I know that the Christian Brothers, among many other educational bodies, have been getting a very bad Press in the paedophile-hunts of recent years, but all I can do is to speak of the time I was with them (nine years from 1929 to 1938).

I started as a "new bob" in the Christmas term of '29 at the tender age of seven. My school trunk opened to disclose my teddy-bear (put in without telling me by my dear old Mum to comfort me, complete with a pair of tiny striped flannel pyjamas which she [a skilled needlewoman] had made for him). Oh, the shame !

I left in '38 as the Senior Prefect. In all that time I never saw or heard of anything of that despicable kind - and I would certainly have heard if there had been the slightest suspicion of any such thing.

Certainly they drove us hard, but they turned out the exam successes, had a waiting list for places (annual fees [adjusted for wage inflation] £15,000 for boarders).

Danny.

Stanwell

30th Jun 2016, 23:18

Quite so, Danny.
Aside from the tawdry bits, our school did, in the main, turn out a good product.
One of the kids I was in the school cadets with, went from private to Chief of our Defence Force and, subsequently, Governor-General of Australia.
His name is Peter Cosgrove.

Buster11

1st Jul 2016, 09:08

On a point of accuracy, in a thread which is drifting, gossamer-like, in various interesting directions, I think that what Danny used to shrink the tissue on his models would have not have been banana oil, but clear dope, probably JoyPlane or Titanine, suitably thinned to prevent the wing turning into a pretzel.. We used banana oil to give a bit of damp-proofing to a doped surface, (still do, in fact) but it didn't shrink. Sleeping in the room in which most of us did our model building and doping, with the heady atmosphere of amyl acetate to lull us to sleep doesn't seem to have done us much harm. Nobody died. Going to Boots at the age of twelve to collect one's order of a pint of ether and four ounces of amyl nitrate to mix diesel fuel didn't seem to cause alarm bells to ring either. Where did it all go wrong...?

Danny42C

1st Jul 2016, 11:41

Stanwell (#199),
...One of the kids I was in the school cadets with, went from private to Chief of our Defence Force and, subsequently, Governor-General of Australia...
thereby emulating:
...[Sir William] Robertson [1860 - 1833] was the first and only British Army soldier to rise from private soldier to field marshal...

Danny.

Danny42C

1st Jul 2016, 11:46

Buster11 (#200),
...On a point of accuracy, in a thread which is drifting, gossamer-like, in various interesting directions...
Which could well be said of many of our senior members here ! and of the stalwarts on the "master" Thread on this Forum ("Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet....", of course !) whose wise Moderators have long since given up on their incorrgible old (and not so young !) Posters, and allowed them to wander where they will, secure in the knowledge that they will always return.

"Banana Oil" - Touché ! you are quite right, Buster. The beauty of this Forum is that there is always someone who can answer a question, or put you right if you stumble. Thanks !

Danny.

NigG

1st Jul 2016, 18:58

Buster11

Quite so... where did it all go wrong? And why is the UK in such disarray at the moment? No, no... we won't go there! Back to the topic of 'Arthur Gill'. (Though, of course, a little digression does no one any harm... just so long as it isn't dull!)

In 1942, Arthur escaped from Sumatra by ship, in the wake of the Japanese invasion of that island. The remnants of 84 Sqdn, a handful of Blenheims, had flown across to Java to continue the fight. But as Arthur's own aircraft had been lost at the hands of another pilot, he was put in charge of the evacuation of surplus personnel, and thus got out to the safety of India. They landed at Karachi, and were accommodated at 301 Maintenance Unit. Arthur was given work ferrying aircraft across from the Middle East and also around to squadrons in India. At this time, in March 1942, his log book shows a terse entry: 'Hurricane IIB... Karachi - Jodpur - Chorahat (Forced Landed)'.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture401-hurricane-iid-6-sqn-raf-over-western-desert-1942.jpg

Arthur later filled in the details:

'Together with three other Hurricanes, I took off from 301 MU, Karachi, bound for Allahabad. We had no navigational aids available, such as radio beacons, but the forecast was good. However, after some hours the visibility deteriorated to nil due to heat haze. We couldn't identify any useful features on the ground and it became evident that we had to put down as fuel was very low. We descended to about 1000' and spotted a suitably flat cultivated field close to a small village. I told the other pilots to watch my landing and take their time to follow me in. I got down without incident, as did the next two aircraft. But the fourth evidently approached much too slowly. To my dismay, I saw it stall and go into the ground. The aircraft didn't burn, but we discovered that the pilot had struck his head on the windscreen, killing him in the process. In the village, an Indian police constable passed my message to the RAF Station at Allahabad. After which we had nothing to do but wait for three days, until a convoy arrived. They refueled the aircraft and took the body of the dead pilot for burial at Allahabad. We took off and continued our journey. Later I wrote to the Rao Sahib of Chorahat, the local ruler, to convey my thanks to the villagers who had fed and accommodated us.

Some weeks later I received an invitation from him to dine at his fort. I duly accepted and later found myself beside him, each with a separate table laden with numerous dishes of Indian delicacies. All went well until it came to dessert. This consisted of a square of sweetened gram flour, which appeared to have a piece of silver cigarette packet foil covering the top. I hesitated, not knowing quite what to make of it. Seeing my concern, the Rao Sahib, felt obliged to apologise. He explained: 'I'm very sorry, I can't afford gold'. It turned out that the 'cigarette packet foil' was beaten silver and it was deemed to be perfectly good to eat, its purity being an attractant for any impurities otherwise ingested. I tucked-in, reassuring myself with the thought that in India, 'every aristocratic stomach has a silver lining'!

A light-hearted end to an otherwise unfortunate story. :sad:

MPN11

1st Jul 2016, 19:52

A nice tale of the Days of Empire, sadly diminished by the fate of #4.

Such a shame they all wanted to get rid of us 'after the War'.

Danny42C

1st Jul 2016, 20:07

NigG,
...his log book shows a terse entry: 'Hurricane IIB... Karachi - Jodpur - Chorahat (Forced Landed)..
"Chorahat" rang no bells at first, never heard of it, thought it might be "Chorhat" (alternative spelling of "Jorhat" in Assam). But Google tells me it's pukka. Around Delhi somewhere.
...I tucked-in, reassuring myself with the thought that in India, 'every aristocratic stomach has a silver lining !...
But his possibly did not - hope there were no repercussions ! In any case, "sweeper" emptying his "Thunderbox" next morning would have shock of his life (never seen a foil-wrapped one before" - Sahib must have magical powers !)
Like the bit about the apology for not having gold leaf (there is a "Danziger Goldwasser", [Wiki] quite reasonable about £23 a bottle). Never tried it.

Keep up the good work on the log book,

Danny.

pzu

2nd Jul 2016, 01:25

Danny at least the 'Danzigger Goldwasser' is classed as a Liqueur (Alcohol content ??)

A former school pal of mine is involved with producing 'New Zealand Gold' a pure Artesian water with some minute Gold % - currently on sale in various parts of the 'sand pit' at around US$100 a bottle (75cl)

I have been promised a 'free sample' when it arrives in the UK

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

NigG

2nd Jul 2016, 09:10

In any case, "sweeper" emptying his "Thunderbox" next morning would have shock of his life (never seen a foil-wrapped one before" - Sahib must have magical powers !)

:-D I did come up with a somewhat marginal follow-on, but then my Inner Child was grasped by the scruff of the neck by my Inner Moderator and was given a glimpse of 'the place that is forever damnation'. :eek: I'm wondering what we'd ever do if Danny was given a fortnight's suspension. :uhoh: Maybe we'd all take a break and book a short holiday in the sun. Though here in the UK, following the Referendum, Easyjet must be on the point of shutting down. No.46 Group, possibly? :confused:

NigG

2nd Jul 2016, 09:22

A nice tale of the Days of Empire... Such a shame they all wanted to get rid of us 'after the War'.

I think many wanted to be shot of us well before the war (and I can't entirely blame them). My mother's family were living out in India from the 1920s on. None of my aunts or uncles had any problems on the street, except for one who was spat at by a group of passing youths. Come to think of it... that has a contemporary 'ring'... haven't some European workers recently complained about such treatment over here? :(

MPN11

2nd Jul 2016, 10:04

Yeah, we de-emigrated from Jamaica as Independence loomed. The general atmosphere was becoming slightly unpleasant.

Danny42C

2nd Jul 2016, 11:19

Extra Title: The Deep Trench Latrine.
NigG,
...:-D I did come up with a somewhat marginal follow-on, but then my Inner Child was grasped by the scruff of the neck by my Inner Moderator and was given a glimpse of 'the place that is forever damnation'...
My usual practice has been to refer readers to the Page (153) and Post (#3047) on the "Pilot's Brevet" Thread of any relevant reference of mine in this matter, but it occurs to me that, having done the "heavy lifting" of tracing it, I might as well copy 'n paste an excerpt from it for you to enjoy (?)

Without more ado, I append as an example # of what our ever-tolerant, kindly Moderators have already stomached, and I'm sure your Inner Moderator would show equal latitude to your "marginal" follow-on, if tastefully presented.

Danny.

Note # : one significant word has been changed in the original text, wannabe Sherlock Holmeses may be amused looking for it !

************

In response to a total lack of interest in the subject, but having a while back promised an article on this indelicate (but quite essential) component of our daily life in the forward areas now behind us, here is my recollection - (and those who remember Louis de Bernières' novel: "Captain Corelli's Mandolin" may remember a similar, amusing description of Italian troops).

I cannot do better by way of description than to recount an enduring sad tale that I must have heard a score of times - but never with exact details of time or place - (I believe it was current in the Middle East, too).

First, to set the stage: In a basha is dug a narrow trench, straddled by a long narrow timber box, This has an open bottom and is provided with a row of suitable holes on top. There are no doors or partitions - such civilised conventions have long been discarded in our life at the sharp end.* :eek:

Of course the normal military distinctions still had to be observed: separate DTLs for Officers and ORs (British), another set (of modified design) for the Indian Officers and ranks. (How did they manage with the Muslim/Hindu divide, and the Caste problems with the latter ? - No idea - Anglo-Indians ? I think they counted as British for this purpose.

Consequently, these places hosted convivial gatherings. Here was a forum for the discussion of important military matters; the latest rumours were disseminated (hence the term: "Latrinogram"), and the topics of the day given a good airing (no pun intended). Hinged lids were provided to try to abate the fly nuisance. Pretty well every visitor (even non-smokers) took a cigarette in with him (as a deodoriser - now you can see the advantage to "Stew" Mobsby of losing his sense of smell !) It was forbidden to throw a lighted butt down the hole, but there was always someone who forgot.

Our hero was one such. He picked himself up some fifty feet away, with a badly scorched bottom, surrounded with shattered timbers and covered all over with - well, not exactly with "sweet violets" ! He was not alone, his companions (in a like state) were not well pleased with him, and were making the fact loudly and abundantly clear. The "netty", "dunny", call it what you will, had (to use a common expression in "babu" English): "Gone from that place".

What had happened ? Methane in the trench had built up to the point where, mingled with air, it had reached the "stoichiometric ratio" at which the mixture became explosive. The dog-end provided the detonator.

Is the story true ? Well, it could have happened, couldn't it ?

Note *: And not only at the sharp end. In the Basic and Advanced flying schools of the US Army Air Corps (which were 100% military units), I recall the same companiable arrangement with rows of gleaming mahogany and porcelain thrones in the washrooms (so there was no chance of a quiet break with cigarette and newspaper). Primary Schools were basically civilian-run: more customary standards prevailed there).

I promise you that is my last word on the subject.:D

Goodnight once more,

Danny42C

Ah, well.

Danny42C

2nd Jul 2016, 13:51

NigG (#208),
...Quote:
Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
A nice tale of the Days of Empire... Such a shame they all wanted to get rid of us 'after the War'...
Well, not "all", IMHO. In 1947 the population of the subcontinent was, I believe, around 400,000,000 (it was not so much "the jewel in the crown of Empire" as the whole thing). Of these, perhaps 500,000 (the most highly [often British] educated), intellectualy sophisticated class of major city-dwellers, who had been suffused with the idea of independence, and saw the advantage to themselves in it, campaigned tirelessly for it. They were skilled in the art of stoking-up popular resentment against British rule, hence the appearance of "Jai Hind" ("Quit India") daubed all over on buildings and railway trucks from 1946.
...None of my aunts or uncles had any problems on the street, except for one who was spat at by a group of passing youths...
This would have been in the last days (and only in a town, I surmise). Earlier they would not have dared, the Indian Police would have tracked down the offenders and given them a damn' good hiding with their lathis.

The great, silent majority ("Village India") were content with life under thr Raj. For the first time in their history, their lives were ruled by a Power which was often insensitive, sometimes harsh and domineering, but never corrupt. They could rely on justice from a British administrator against a rich and grasping landlord or moneylender - for everyone knew a British judge could not be "bought". They had a national, effective Police Force. They had a single stable currency throughout the land (the Rupee) which was locked to sterling. There was one law for all. Above all, they had Pax Britannica, which sounds an airy-fairy concept until you lose it (in the communal riots which followed Partition, the death roll was estimated as two million; today's revisionist historians have massaged that down to a million - but I prefer the original figure).

(In 1919, a Brigadier Dyer had been excoriated for the "Amritsar Massacre", in which some 400 Indian civilians had been killed. But this was "Indian on Indian" - so it's all right, then).

Was British Rule in India perfect ? No, it wasn't. Was it immeasurably better than anything which had gone on before ? Certainly ! My old friend, Flight Lieutenant Niel (sic) Ratan Ker (RIP), Indian born and knowing the country, visited many times postwar, and told me that he often heard, from the older people: "I wish the British would come back !"

Danny.

PS: At the end of the war, I remember reading "Mother India" by (Mr) Beverley Nichols. Checking Google for "beverley nichols mother india", I am surprised to learn that "Mother India" was actually written by Katherine Mayo. Nichols had incorporated it into his "Verdict on India". The Brazilian River has a Kindle of Mayo's "Mother India" for £0.99, and of Nichols' "Verdict on India" for £3.98

Google's menu to input "beverley nichols mother india" offers first item "India's Partition: The Story of Imperialism in Retreat". Well worth a read.

D.

MPN11

2nd Jul 2016, 14:30

India was probably a unique case in the context of Empire, due to size, complexity, the established Raj and the Viceroy.

My thoughts were more directed to those other smaller places, in Africa and the Caribbean, with long-forgotten names, and the Wind of Change that blew through Africa. Ah, how well they did after achieving their independence.

How we now applaud the status and stability of the former British Somaliland, Northern Rhodesia, Nigeria, The Southern Cameroons, Nyasaland [what's that now?], Uganda, The Gambia and Serra Leone. [/sarcasm]

Maps >>>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire#/media/File:British_Empire_1921.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire#/media/File:British_Decolonisation_in_Africa.png

NigG

3rd Jul 2016, 13:33

Danny and MPN

Fascinating insight into your wartime ablutions! The latrine story has a ring of truth (no rude pun intended). I recall that in my youth I had heard about one's ability to set light to such gases, at the moment of emission, with a lighter. Fool that I was, I tried it and the consequent explosive flare rewarded me with a good burn to both my hand and to my ring of truth. :uhoh:

Yes, there were, no doubt, some benefits of imperialism to a colonised country... and Britain was apparently one of the better masters to have. But on balance, we shouldn't lull ourselves into thinking that colonisation was a good thing. At its heart was trade, and trade that was at the expense of the country concerned. An example in India was the cotton trade, where cotton was grown in India, shipped to the mills of northern England, then shipped back again as cloth to sell to the Indian population. The quality of the manufactured product was vastly better than 'home spun' cloth produced by Indian villagers, so that particular local industry collapsed.

So the Empire not only fed British industry with affordable raw materials, it also provided markets to sell to... markets that were 'protected' from the goods of foreign competitors. Most of the grand buildings in British cities, and the fine country houses, now in the hands of the National Trust, were, of course, financed by the profits of Empire. As you rightly observe, colonial rule tended to be with a rod of iron. Vast countries were being controlled by tiny cadres of Brits, so the illusion of superiority, and the immediate suppression of any signs of insurrection was vital.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture407-westland-wapiti-iia-55-sqdn.jpg

I've mentioned 84 Sqdn a lot in this Thread. In fact, between the world wars, they were put to use in Iraq, as an 'enforcer and peace-keeper' of the British imperial government. Their work included the following. The village of a head man who failed to pay his taxes, would be visited by an aircraft which would drop leaflets warning that the village would be destroyed by bombing if he failed to cough-up by a designated date. If that didn't deliver the money, a squadron of Wapitis were sent to the village and more leaflets would be dropped telling the villagers to evacuate prior to the commencement of the air strike. They were given 30 minutes, the aircraft circling overhead as the villagers drove their herds out and moved their prized possessions. The bombing would then commence, the villagers watching from several hundred metres away. HE destroyed the roofs and incendiaries set light to the timbers. (I should add that other miscreants who received similar treatment included Shiek Mahmoud who wanted Kurdistan for the Kurds (sound familiar?) and also any village that provided food to some nasty outlaws called the KFB.)

Should you doubt the accuracy of this information, I've taken it from the book 'Flying Fever' by AVM S F Vincent, who flew on such raids and later became 84 Sqdn CO. (The same Vincent who commanded 221 Group in the Burma campaign, with such success). He personally flew on fifty such raids and he did find them distasteful. One can easily see that the return of a British presence to Iraq in the recent war and occupation, stirred old memories and the conduct of our ancestors exacerbated anti-British sentiments.

MPN11

3rd Jul 2016, 15:29

NigG ... no argument with your perspective at all. I merely tried to highlight how "well" they did after we left, especially those with endemic corruption and a complete failure to develop any further. ;)

Danny42C

3rd Jul 2016, 16:26

NigG (#213) and MPN11 (#214),
...I've mentioned 84 Sqdn a lot in this Thread. In fact, between the world wars, they were put to use in Iraq, as an 'enforcer and peace-keeper' of the British imperial government...
Not exactly - Google/Wiki "British Mandate for Palestine (legal instrument)".
...Their work included the following. The village of a head man who failed to pay his taxes.......incendiaries set light to the timbers...
which leads me to Pilot's Brevet 5 Jan 2013 #3369:
...Danny and a little history of 20 Sqdn.
So what would be the nature of the "co-operation" that 20 Squadron had provided for the Army in India? Essentially the age-old Frontier duty: "Subduing the Tribes". This sounds barbarous, but was really quite a gentlemany procedure.

From time immemorial, the hill tribes on the NW frontier of present day Pakistan had plagued the plains villages below, raping and pillaging, plundering livestock and grain stores and generally making nuisances of themselves. They were a constant thorn in the side of the Raj, which generally came off second-best when it went into the hills after them, but was able to contain them in their fastnesses, as we controlled the plains.

The arrival of the aeroplane altered the balance of power. An aircraft would fly over the tribal village responsible and drop leaflets saying: "We are coming over next Thursday afternoon to knock the place down". This gave them ample time to move people, livestock, charpoys, food stores, tools and possessions over to the next hilltop on the appointed day.

Then a flight of Wapities or Harts would come over and drop a lot of small bombs to do a good deal of damage. No blood would be lost, the villagers still had all the means to resume daily life, but the menfolk had to turn to and rebuild their houses. This was too much like hard work; the message got home that they had better behave themselves in future.

I cannot vouch for any of this, for it was all related to me by a Very Old India Hand I met on the boat home. What I do know is that a very similar policy was adopted in Mesopotamia (aka Irak), when we held the League of Nations mandate to administer that former province of the Ottoman Empire for thirteen (?) years in the twenties and thirties after WW1. Moreover, it was more efficient, and cheaper than sending in punitive expeditions, and the Treasury loved that...

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Danny.

NigG

4th Jul 2016, 14:06

Danny and MPN

Quite so, MPN... I take your point. Independence 'Freedom' Fighters don't necessarily make responsible and honourable politicians... and insufficient checks and balances gives free-reign to corruption. By comparison, I rather wonder if British colonial administrators actually needed to resort to corruption. They had a comfortable life, with servants, and were assured of a pleasant retirement back in Cheltenham, or wherever. That's not to suggest they didn't work hard, or that the hot season wasn't hard to bear. Nor that they weren't imbued with a sense of honour and self-discipline.

I'm reminded of my grandfather, who went out to India in the 1920s as a WOII in the Artillery. The (British) Indian Army needed more staff for its Ordnance Corps and invited applicants to transfer. By the look of it, it was a 'no brainer'. Having transferred he acquired a typical colonial bungalow, with the servants as follows: an Ayah (nursemaid), a Bearer (waiter), a Mahli (gardener), a Sweeper (cleaner) and a Kansamah (cook). Had the family been living back in the UK, having even a single servant would have been well beyond their means. There were other attractive bonuses too, such a year's leave back in the UK every six years, and good boarding schools for the children. With promotion to WOI, he was even able to afford a car. Materially, it was a jump into the realms of the affluent middle class.

I can't resist adding a shot of him! Having walked around many of the British Indian hill stations (before they were spoilt by modern development) I have such regret not to have been there in the old days. My generation has had the opportunity of higher education, the older generations had the opportunities of Empire! :)

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture408-william-hammond-indian-army-ordnance-corps-1930s.jpg

Thanks for the comments/correction, Danny. (Fount of all knowledge!)

Danny42C

4th Jul 2016, 16:47

NigG,

What a field for comment and question you present to us in your #216 ! First shot out of the locker:... I take your point. Independence 'Freedom' Fighters don't necessarily make responsible and honourable politicians...
It was said at the time: "Self Government is better than Good Government". For the few, perhaps, but not for the many - of which sub-Saharan Africa today is a vivid illustration.
...That's not to suggest they didn't work hard, or that the hot season wasn't hard to bear. Nor that they weren't imbued with a sense of honour and self-discipline..
I remember a statistic quoted in Beverley Nichol's (or rather Katherine Mayo's ?) "Mother India", to the effect that: "The steel brace which held the whole edifice together, was the India Civil Service, numbering no more than 500 men" (devout skinflint though I am, I may lash out for the two Kindles [£0.99 and £3.98] I mentioned before and correct the quotation sometime).

These were picked men, the cream of the Oxbridge output of the year, who would all be alumni of the Victorian and Edwardian Public Schools which had been set up for this very purpose, to inculcate the idea of "playing a straight bat" - "behaving with honour and self-discipline", as you put it. They were the "top people", chosen above the entrants to the British Civil Service Administrative Class, the future Sir Humphries, ("men with "humble titles and immense power") whom I hope are running this country, as no one else seems to be at the moment !

Kipling alludes to this in his much derided poem "The White Man's Burden" (sometimes regarded as a covert plea to the US to take over the Empire from us)

"Take up the White Man’s burden—
Send forth the best ye breed—
Go send your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need"

..................and later:

"Take up the White Man’s burden—
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard"

There are many more bones to be picked out of your excellent Post, but this will do to be going on with !

Danny.

Fantome

4th Jul 2016, 17:19

That great man of the game FS Trueman of Yorkshire said of a visit to play in India that not even bowels of concrete could slow the passage of the food on offer. . One of his memorable stories (and he had a million of them)
concerned the English bowler Alf Gover . In India in I think 1948 with the Honourable Lionel Tennyson his captain .
India won the toss and batted. Gover opened the bowling,. As FS told it Gover paced his run up and declared it good. Turning he started his long run in arms and legs going like pistons .. . he passed his crease increasing speed down the pitch past the startled batsman on strike. He brushed aside third man and dodged two more leaving the field to enter the pavilion still at a cracking pace . . . After a minute or two the captain decided to see what had happened to Gover. He goes into the dressing room . . Gover. .. . where are you Gover? I'm in the ****house sir. What are you doing in there Gover? I've shat my pants sir. . . . Oh thats a pity Gover. Could we have the ball back now .. we want to get on with the game.

Danny42C

5th Jul 2016, 08:55

NigG,
...The (British) Indian Army needed more staff for its Ordnance Corps and invited applicants to transfer...
As a Warrant Officer in the RIAOC, he would have carried the traditional title of "Conductor" or Sub-Conductor". Perhaps it might be useful to recall that, after the 1857 Mutiny (or "First War of Independence" [whichever way you look at it], when the former East India Company was effectively "nationalised"), there were two armies in British India. The former was the "Indian Army" ("John Company's" old Army), who were "Regulars", all Indian troops with all-British officers, who would spend their whole careers out in India.

They were supplemented by battalions of British Army regiments, which came out on "tours" of three years or so, and then be relieved by another in rotation. A long service soldier, or a "career" officer could reckon on serving half his time in India.

There was an unspoken purpose in this arrangement. Britain was afraid of a second Mutiny. They had come within a whisker of losing India in the first one. Now that the reasoning was: a mutineeering Indian army would, by definition, be without its British officers (whose throats they had cut). Unled, they would degenerate into a rabble. An all-British army only half its size should easily prevail over it. It was not until the thirties, IIRC, that the first Indian Army officers received the King's Commission. This is usually attributed to racial prejudice, but it was not so.

And the North-West Frontier provided a perfect training ground for the British army. Why run around on Salisbury plain or the Brecon Beacons, firing blanks, when here you had a real live enemy and live rounds were flying round you ? The chaps would learn real soldiering much more quickly this way ! And the training was much cheaper, too.
...By the look of it, it was a 'no brainer'. Having transferred he acquired a typical colonial bungalow, with the servants as follows: an Ayah (nursemaid), a Bearer (waiter), a Mahli (gardener), a Sweeper (cleaner) and a Kansamah (cook)...
One small point: "Bearer" is translated as "waiter" and that is correct. You would use the word to call a waiter in a restaurant. But a single officer would have one to himself, and an Other Rank a share of one, as his "batman" (personal servant and factotum), his "Jeeves". A good bearer was worth his weight in rupees: in my time the going rate was Rs20 a month (£1/10/- or $6 'over the pond').

Somewhere in the past I have Posted a rather nice little story. A young officer fresh out of Sandhurst had been posted to a British battalion going out for a "tour". An equally young local was engaged as his "bearer". He learned very fast, and the two got on very well together for the three years. Then the Lieutenant went home and thought no more about it. Exceptionally, he did not go out again for twenty years, and then (a Lieutenant-Colonel) returned to India to take command of his battalion.

Waiting for him at the foot of the gangplank in Bombay was his old bearer, ready to take charge of his kit. He had heard (in some mysterious way) of his old Sahib's impending return, and travelled a thousand miles from his village (probably on top of, or hanging on to a train), confident that they could pick up where they left off. It was so, and they went on together to the Colonel's posting, the bearer now in the comfort of the bearer's compartment at the back of his Sahib's first-class carriage. So the story (true, I'm told) ends.

Much more in your Post to go at, but that will do for the moment.

Danny.

Wander00

5th Jul 2016, 09:52

Danny - your story reminds me that when I rejoined the RAF in 1980, after an 11 year gap, I turned up at Cranwell and parked at the back of SHQ, As I opened the car door it was "taken" from me and as I stepped out I was greeted by my Batman from cadet days, Pop Amies. "Good morning, Sir. I hear you were returning and I thought it only right that I should welcome you back". How he knew I do not know, but I walked into SHQ with a huge lump in my throat. Bless you, Pop.

Danny42C

5th Jul 2016, 11:45

NigG (#216),
...I can't resist adding a shot of him!...
Whole series of questions:
Fine figure of a Sahib (monarch of all he surveys!) He is wearing a tunic (plus shirt, collar and tie) and shorts. In my recollection, with that kit on top we would always be wearing slacks. Bush jacket or shirt with shorts - fine. But not this ! (our US friends, sweating in their trews, greatly envied us even if we did look like overgrown Boy Scouts).

Line of ribbons; must have been in WWI.

What, in the name of all that's good and holy, has he got on his legs ? Looks like a long leather puttee or boot (snakes ?) with a peep-toe showing chaplis (Jesus sandals) ?? Standard parade wear (with shorts) would have been long khaki woolen stockings and black shoes.

What is the bike ? Something tells me that it's a Matchless, but I don't know why.

The Bombay Bowler was de rigeur then, I suppose. We chucked all ours away and wore Caps SD, or (preferably) Aussie Bush Hats. Just as good, and you could screw them up and push them into any odd corner of a cockpit.

Background looks like a Hill station, (down on the plains would be far too hot for tunic, shirt and tie).
...Materially, it was a jump into the realms of the affluent middle class...
Yes, it was "the life of Reilly". They lived "high on the hog", as befitted a herrenvolk. Every European out there knew that, apart from anything else, he was there to rule. Kindly if you can, harshly if you must, but always rule. That was the way it had always been, and (we thought) always would be.

The beauty of it all was that Government of India paid for all this: it didn't cost the British taxpayer a penny. Not only that, they also paid for me (roughly at twice the home rate) as an officer - but our troops were paid by the UK at only the rupee equivalent of UK pay ! (work that one out, if you can).
... My generation has had the opportunity of higher education, the older generations had the opportunities of Empire!...
I've always thought that my five years of war (3½ in India/Burma) were the university education to which I could never otherwise have aspired.

Lastly:
...Having walked around many of the British Indian hill stations (before they were spoilt by modern development) I have such regret not to have been there in the old days...
Now you must, absolutely must, tell us all about it ! :=

Danny.

NigG

5th Jul 2016, 16:02

Danny

I was confident that you'd have some interesting snippets to add! I dug out the original photo of my grandfather on the motorcycle. Yes, he's wearing dark puttees on top of long socks, which descend to ankle height shoes. There's a flaw on the photo which, together with a highly polished toe cap, gives the false impression of sandals. On his arm is the Royal Cypher, so he was then a 'Conductor', that is an Indian Army Ordnance Corps 'Warrant Officer First Class'. That dates the photo to 1938-9 (I thought it earlier). My mother, his daughter, says they were then stationed at Trimulgerry, Secundrabad, in the Deccan of South India. So the background wasn't a Hill Station, as you surmised. The uniform does seem to be quirky, but my mother confirms that such puttees were standard uniform. I guess the British Indian Army was a little antiquated. We do have other shots of him, when commissioned during wartime, wearing the standard cotton tunic, so evidently the Indian Army became a bit more 'in vogue'.

You mention his ribbons... he did indeed serve in WW1. He was in the Royal Field Artillery and went out to Belgium to take part in the first set-to: the Battle of Mons. He wrote a somewhat sketchy account of his ten months in combat. Since it's topical, with the centenary of the Somme, here's an excerpt from his time at Mons, when a 21-year-old Bombardier (Corporal). The comments in [ ] are my additions, made when I made a document of his journal.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture410-william-hammond-1920s-rfa.jpg

In the 1920's after WW1

August 20th[1914] Entrained – a very long and tedious journey, broken by numerous halts at large towns. French people very good – dishing out tea, coffee, cigarettes, etc. We gave our cap badges and shoulder titles to them as souvenirs. Arrived at ---------- and bivouacked for the night.
[‘Bivouacing’ means sleeping outside without a tent. The train journey took them from France into Belgium, arriving close to the city of Mons, to join the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) facing the advance of the German 1st Army. William arrived on the second day of the battle when the bulk of the British forces had withdrawn to secondary defensive positions, but his Brigade’s guns were brought to bear on the attacking Germans. William describes their move up to the battle area, having disembarked from the train].
August 21st Route continued by march – very long march.
August 22nd Still pushing forward as hard as we could go.
August 23rd - Sunday – marched on till noon – having heard enemy’s outposts – patrols not far away – in a hurry to engage him. At noon arrived at the village of Jivry – near Mons. The Colonel went to reconnoitre – we watered and fed. Suddenly we had to take off the nose bags [from the horses] and get a move on – enemy only two miles away. 22nd Battery got into a bad place but was brought out in time to avoid any casualties. 50th and 70th Batteries went into action on the hill above the village. Brigade Staff – Colonel, Adjutant, Orderly Officer, myself, Bombardier Broadly and two Gunners went up as observing party. Commenced digging an observation trench. 50th Battery opened fire on about one Brigade of German Cavalry – almost wiped ‘em out – 50th and 70th then turned their attention to the Enemy’s artillery who were now shelling our infantry. This drew their fire – firstly on 70th then on the whole Brigade – what a day for the “Bhoys”. Our observation trench – being dug in very chalky ground – showed up plainly and was consequently heavily shelled by the Enemy. Oh for water – we had about a pint between us – it soon went. We were digging handfuls [of dirt] out as we just could – I got a bullet through my haversack – for seven hours we were bombarded continually – a fine baptism of fire indeed. Every time any of us showed our heads a shell screamed over at us – we were in line [of sight of their guns]. One shell burst on the ground 18 inches behind the trench – we thought of all our friends at home – all of those we loved – of our past lives – death seemed near – it was our Baptism. As darkness came over, the fire slackened down a bit and at length the enemy only sent one shell over every quarter of an hour. It always burst in the same place – about 300 yards behind us – we grew brave at about 11pm. I had to get the Telephone Detachment up and lay a line to 50th Battery. This over, I sent away the detachment and went back to the trench for the purpose of deepening and working it up generally – by daylight we had it finished to perfection – [later] we had to change the position of the observing station – and [here] commenced to dig like hell as the Enemy were at us again.

His journal continues in rather less detail, describing his part in the Battles of the Marne and First battle of Ypres. In the latter, the Artillery were located close behind the Infantry and his unit was nearly over-run by the Prussian Guard, who had broken through the Black Watch. They had a hell of a time due to heavy artillery bombardment. A later short excerpt, gives us a glimpse of the Royal Flying Corps:

Feb 8th[1915] After 3 days on the move, we took up a new position at GIVENCHY on the side of LA BASSEE CANAL. This had been an extremely hot shop but seemed at the arrival of the 2nd Divisional Artillery to cool down a great deal. We gave them many bombardments which they didn’t appear to like at all.
20th February – gave our greatest (up to the present) demonstration, by bombardment of a German position (called by me) DUCK’S BILL. The infantry, as always before, said our fire was disastrous to the Allemandes, who retired. Our people then advanced on the position.
March 1st Still in the same position – nothing doing – (still sweating on leave).
10th March We adopted the offensive and pushed forward in parts of the line. In this particular section of the line we could not get through the German defences – the barbed wire was of an extremely strong nature and the enemy’s machine guns did a deal of destruction amongst our infantry. [Note: the Infantry largely depended on the massive artillery barrage, laid down before they attacked, to cut the barbed wire entanglements positioned in front of the enemy trenches.] We were continuing the attack on 11th and 12th but finally had to break it off. 12th to 18th nothing of note happened. 18th I was laying out telephone wire to 56th Battery and when near CUINCHY I got sniped at a bit. One fellow nearly winged me but, as I always say, “the German bullet to hit me has not yet been made”.
[Snipers on both sides, equipped with rifles fitted with telescopic sights, carefully concealed themselves at suitable vantage points, and accounted for many casualties. A few months earlier, the Germans removed the spikes from the top of their helmets, in view of the number of casualties that Allied snipers were inflicting on them].
31st March. Nothing of any great interest has occurred since the 12th. The weather has changed for the better and aircraft of both sides have been very active. Every day we have good entertainments from the anti-aircraft guns who – on both sides - give the aviators a hot time. The German airmen mostly scuttle when fired at, but ours are plucky to the extreme. Nothing seems to frighten them, though many have close shaves. Still sweating on that leave. (What will April bring, I wonder?) We have now been in action 9 months so suppose we will soon go out to rest.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture409-bleriot-ixs-royal-flying-corps-hu67895-1.jpg

Bleriots of the Royal Flying Corps, 1914

A little earlier he described some of his experiences at the battle of the Marne, and later describes a visit from a German aircraft:

On Monday morning we crossed behind 6th Infantry Brigade and the whole drew up in a sheltered valley below the village of VERNIEUL which is on the Aune – a few miles northwest of SOISSONS. No sooner had we drawn up than the enemy introduced a new gun which fired tremendous shells – afterwards nicknamed by us as “Jack Johnsons”, “Black Marias”, “Big Willies” and several other equally idiotic names. One horse was killed and the infantry who, like ourselves, were massed, moved forward – we moving on to a more sheltered position. It was however found that the infantry were shortly opposed by vastly superior numbers and could not push on. Accordingly our Brigade, 34th and 44th Howitzer Brigade were pushed forward to assist them - and we did, but not without serious losses to the personnel and horses of the wagon lines. We stopped in that position for 7 days – it was like Hell. [But] when we eventually left, not a man had the ‘nerve’ of the smallest degree.
(I forgot to mention that [in the very first action] at Mons we got 3 of our 18 guns smashed – our casualties were 5 killed and about 35 wounded).
Here, again, we lost 4 more guns – the work of our new friend Jack One. A sub-section’s gun of 22nd Battery was completely destroyed – with the whole of its detachment and the Section Officer. The other three guns, of 50th Battery, were smashed but the gunners were away – having been ordered away from the guns, owing to the terrific fire directed upon the Battery. On the morning – before daylight – of the 8th day, the Brigade – less [the crippled] 50th Battery, moved to a position about a mile further back. The new position was on a thickly wooded hill near the village of BOURG and for 8 days we were able –unobserved – to simply massacre the Hordes of Germans. It was possible for us – from our specially constructed look-outs on the hill front – to observe the majority of our fire. It was extremely effective. The Germans searched for us with big guns and small but never once, for the 8 days found their mark. Then on the 9th day, an aeroplane, showing the British flag, came hovering over us – we continued firing and the aeroplane went away to the German lines. Shortly afterwards we were again introduced to “Jack” and some high explosive shrapnel as well. Still, in the three weeks during which we stopped in the position we had only two casualties – a fact showing the extremely fine position we had. We moved from BOURG one evening and marched about 10 miles to the village of BRENELLE – another section of the Aisne area – and stopped there for about a fortnight. Just a few spare “Jacks” were our share there – it was quiet.

Regarding my visits to the British Indian Hill Stations, my various mini-adventures aren't really up to being described here... an expedition into the hills here, a dose of malaria there, etc. But I recall the enchanting British bungalows, with traditional, Mediterranean-style tiled roofs, verandas and servants' outhouses. I got to look around one, having been let in by the caretaker... it was bare inside, but it gave some sense of how it would have been. At Mount Abu, there was the Club, there again I was allowed to look around. This was fascinating... a time-warp... everything as it had been, from library, card tables, 1920's typewriter, furnishings, etc. The Hill Sations had many of the old public buildings still standing, the churches and cemeteries being very moving. In many places the ambiance was enchanting... a 'little Surrey'... country lanes, cricket grounds, and viewpoints over the plains below. At Ootacamund, I was able to make a visit to my mother's Victorian-built school, to see the dormitories she slept in and the corridors she walked through. However, with the recent rise of the Indian middle class, I understand the Hill stations have been spoiled by modern hotels and other insensitive commercial developments... alas!

Danny42C

5th Jul 2016, 20:38

NigG (#222),

Your Grandfather certainly bore a charmed life at Mons in WWI (he was one of the "Old Contemptibles" - the Kaiser had referred to our 1914 Expeditionary Force as " a contemptible little Army"). But what a harrowing story !
...I got a bullet through my haversack – for seven hours we were bombarded continually – a fine baptism of fire indeed. Every time any of us showed our heads a shell screamed over at us – we were in line [of sight of their guns]. One shell burst on the ground 18 inches behind the trench – we thought of all our friends at home – all of those we loved – of our past lives – death seemed near – it was our Baptism...
Kipling wrote bitterly about our unpreparedness for that war in "Natural Theology":

"Progressive"

"Money spent on an Army or Fleet
Is homicidal lunacy. . . .
My son has been killed in the Mons retreat,
Why is the Lord afflicting me?
Why are murder, pillage and arson
And rape allowed by the Deity?
I will write to the Times, deriding our parson
Because my God has afflicted me".

Ring any bells today ?

Now I thought I knew a fair bit about Indian geography, but "Mount Abu" had me stumped. Went to dear old Google; a look and all was made plain. Not very high, 2600 ft, it looks a lovely place, up on the North of the old Deccan Plain, that old cooled lake of prehistoric volcanic lava akin to the Canadian Shield - but now I'm trespassing on the territory of our Yamagata Ken! Buoyed up by success with Mount Abu, I went in search of another Hill Station which I had always thought to be a figment of Kipling's imagination. "The Ballad of Boh Da Thone" has a couplet (and the rest's worth a read, too):

"But the Captain had quitted the long-drawn strife
And in far Simoorie had taken a wife"

Now I know of a "Mussoorie", but could never find a "Simoorie". Now we have a good candidate in the shape of "Sirmoor", seems to be in the foothills of the Himalayas, not far North West of Dehra Dun and would have much the same (pleasant) climate.
...Regarding my visits to the British Indian Hill Stations, my various mini-adventures aren't really up to being described here... an expedition into the hills here, a dose of malaria there, etc...
Let us be the judge of that ! The devil may be in tne detail - but the charms of a story lie there, too. How did you come to be wandering round the subcontinent in the first place ?
...But I recall the enchanting British bungalows, with traditional, Mediterranean-style tiled roofs, verandas and servants' outhouses...
They tried to recreate ideal Surreys in a foreign land, with mock-Tudor mansions, Malls, gardens, churches, Public Schools (many religious in ethos), Convent Schools and English names to the roads, to give an allusion to a home five thousand miles away which they would not see for years (or ever).

Enough already !

Danny.

NigG

7th Jul 2016, 16:07

"Money spent on an Army or Fleet
Is homicidal lunacy. . . .
My son has been killed in the Mons retreat,
Why is the Lord afflicting me?
Why are murder, pillage and arson
And rape allowed by the Deity?
I will write to the Times, deriding our parson
Because my God has afflicted me".

Ring any bells today ?

Your Kipling quotation above, does ring bells. And not just in the way you infer. It also has resonance here in the UK. The Chalcot Enquiry is of course in the news, with Tony Blair in the media hot-seat over Iraq. It seems to me that the media cannot resist footage of a woman in tears. We had one such, lambasting Blair as a 'terroroist', holding him to account for the loss of her soldier son, who died in a 'Snatch Landrover'. How often in history have the Armed Forces been sent to fight abroad, in conformity with the will of Parliament, losing young lives in the process. Military personnel don't return, angry at the losses. They understand that the job bears risks. Yet here, as Kipling rails against God for the loss of his son, a mother has to pin blame, cry 'negligence' rather than acknowledge that her son was, by choice, a professional soldier. I understand that the MOD frequently has an angry family to deal with in the wake of a death on active service. I rather think that, in the general population, the British 'stiff upper lip' and 'sangue froid' is rather a thing of the past... though it was certainly there in your day. (Perhaps I expect too much.)

.."Mount Abu" had me stumped..... I know of a "Mussoorie", but could never find a "Simoorie". Now we have a good candidate in the shape of "Sirmoor"

Mount Abu is in Rajasthan, one of the Princely States that were left in the administration of the local ruler. So it was never truly a 'British Hill Station', though Brits went there to stay, and it had all the features of a colonial Hill Station. Never heard of 'Simoor', though I visited Musoorie. I recall that it has a lake front, still with the original (and very evocative) sailing club... plus the original 1930s wooden sailing dinghies, complete with varnished, enclosed decks!

How did you come to be wandering round the subcontinent in the first place ? Some of my Artist colleagues had been to India (Anthony Gormley for one... to drop a name). I followed suit, on their advice, and went for five months, with a tight budget. It was such an ordeal at first... travelling alone, in my late 20s, with so many hassles and frustrations that all independent travellers of India get to encounter. After a few months I was something of a 'vet' and got well into my stride. In addition to touristic travel, I made a number of solo expeditions. Some in the Himalyas, but the Hill Stations were handy, too. First task was to prevail on the authorities to let me glimpse a large scale map, from which I made a sketch map. Then off for several days, descending to the plain, staying with local people en route, before re-ascending. I did have a good time, indeed, when I took-off to fly home, there was a small tear in my eye! It was the first of several trips there... an extraordinary mind-bending place, but an 'experience', not a 'holiday'! You, Danny, will of course have many remarkable memories.

They tried to recreate ideal Surreys in a foreign land, with mock-Tudor mansions, Malls, gardens, churches, Public Schools (many religious in ethos), Convent Schools and English names to the roads, to give an allusion to a home five thousand miles away which they would not see for years (or ever).
Quite so... I had forgotten the British names of houses and roads. I did find the Hill Stations very moving, not least because I, as an initially unhappy traveler, had longed to find a small corner of India that had some semblance of home. :{

Danny42C

7th Jul 2016, 21:04

NigG (#224),
...holding him to account for the loss of her soldier son, who died in a 'Snatch Landrover'...
Intended only for crowd and riot control in places like Belfast, no armour, so unsuitable as a battle weapon in the Gulf War. The point here is the causal connection between the parsimony of peacetime Government and the resulting extra casualties in war.

Kipling drives the same message home in the final stanzas:

Chorus

"We had a kettle: we let it leak:
Our not repairing it made it worse.
We haven't had any tea for a week. . .
The bottom is out of the Universe!"

Conclusion

"This was none of the good Lord's pleasure,
For the Spirit He breathed in Man is free;
But what comes after is measure for measure,
And not a God that afflicteth thee.
As was the sowing so the reaping
Is now and evermore shall be.
Thou art delivered to thine own keeping.
Only Thyself hath afflicted thee!"

In plain words: "it's probably your own (Government's) fault, that your son died".
...the Princely States that were left in the administration of the local ruler...
At the height of our powers, we only directly ruled some 60% of the population of the subcontinent. The other 40% were indirectly ruled the through their own Rajahs and Maharajahs. These Princely States numbered no less than 550+ at the end.
.... So it was never truly a 'British Hill Station', though Brits went there to stay, and it had all the features of a colonial Hill Station...
In the days of the Raj, all the Hill Stations (and everything else, for that matter) were 'British', there was no distinction between the directly and indirectly ruled States. We went where we wanted and did what we liked (within [our] law) from the Himalayas to Cape Cormorin.
All our coins bore the superscription "IND IMP"; the Crown ruled India (through the Viceroy, who was God for all practical purposes out there) absolutely.

A lot more juicy tit-bits to be found, but enough for now.

Danny.

NigG

8th Jul 2016, 18:09

Intended only for crowd and riot control in places like Belfast, no armour, so unsuitable as a battle weapon in the Gulf War. The point here is the causal connection between the parsimony of peacetime Government and the resulting extra casualties in war.

Kipling drives the same message home in the final stanzas.....

.....In plain words: "it's probably your own (Government's) fault, that your son died".

I sense a debate coming on, Danny! There was inadequate planning for the aftermath of the Iraq invasion. Snatch landrovers were probably deployed in the expectation of an Internal Security role after the invasion was concluded. That is, a Northern Ireland type situation. It hadn't been fully appreciated that the vacuum left in Saddam's wake would result in extreme violence and anarchy. The Iraqis were, after all, now 'liberated' from tyranny with every prospect of democracy and economic prosperity to follow.

Point two: Do you recognise this aircraft?

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture412-vildebeest-mk-iii-36-squadron.png

It's a Vildebeest, with which 36 and 100 Squadrons were equipped in 1942. The aircraft were obsolescent, but were part of the Singapore defence force. The Japanese landed at Endau, on the coast of Malaya, opposite Singapore. Both squadrons were sent into action. They had no genuine chance to inflict damage on the Japanese invasion fleet, because they were shot out of the sky by Japanese fighters. Squadrons equipped with the Fairey 'Battle' had a similar fate over France in 1940 (you made the point earlier in this Thread).

My point is, military personnel have been thrown into battle when ill-equipped, for centuries. It's part of the deal when you've taken the Queen's Shilling... you have to get on with the job, no matter what. Did the relatives of the excellent young men who died during this action at Endau get airtime on British newsreels to complain about the 'terrorist' Winston Churchill who failed to provide adequate aircraft to give the airmen a fighting-chance? No. Because it was a different age... one where it was understood that sacrifices would be made and the only appropriate response was a stiff upper lip. I suggest that the British of this time were made of sterner stuff than some of the British of today. These particular Brits are an exception to the rule, of course. The majority of families who have recently had to bear the awful trauma of a military death seem to have done so with quiet pride and forbearance. In my opinion they are true Brits in the traditional mould. I would prefer it if the media gave these people airtime, in preference to those who want to yell abuse at politicans. (...Fat chance!)

Interesting comments from you on the Princely States. Maybe Mt Abu was British-built. I think the local ruler may have had a British administration, who decamped to Mt Abu during the hot season.

Danny42C

8th Jul 2016, 21:13

NigG (#226),
...I sense a debate coming on, Danny!...
That's what Forums (Fora ?) are for. Keep the pot boiling !
...The Japanese landed at Endau, on the coast of Malaya, opposite Singapore. Both squadrons were sent into action. They had no genuine chance to inflict damage on the Japanese invasion fleet, because they were shot out of the sky by Japanese fighters...
Our Great White Hope was the Navy. "Repulse" and "Prince of Wales", commanded by an Admiral Phillips, who had declared: "A properly handled capital ship can always beat off air attack" (and to be fair, that reflected Admiralty belief at the time), would destroy the invasion transports. As we know, it didn't work out that way ! The fate of Singapore, Malaya, Burma (and maybe India ?) was sealed.
...Because it was a different age... one where it was understood that sacrifices would be made and the only appropriate response was a stiff upper lip. I suggest that the British of this time were made of sterner stuff than some of the British of today...
Our generation "lived in different times". Brought up in the Great Depression and the "hungry thirties", we'd all learned, from the adults, a detailed knowledge of the world war which had ended little more than a decade before. Most of our fathers, uncles and workmates had served in that war; as a small boy I'd seen crippled ex-servicemen begging in the streets of Liverpool, or eking out a pitiful living as buskers or pavement artists (some of these were good - but you can't do much with coloured chalks when it's raining).

Our Mothers and Aunts (a fair number of them "maiden" - not from choice), had endured all the privations, rationing and heartbreaks of War. When we saw WWII coming, we knew what to expect ! The "Stiff upper lip" was the only option.

Things are so different today. WWII is slipping out of living memory. But, as far as the RAF postwar "new" entries I had experience of (up to 1972), I have said: "The "Right Stuff" was still as "Right" as ever it was - just different, that's all".
... I think the local ruler may have had a British administration, who decamped to Mt Abu during the hot season. ..
Certainly he would have had a "Political Agent", an éminence grise (from the ICS) who pulled the strings of Raj policy. If he didn't "toe the line", he was removed (not always by means that would be approved today), and another, more compliant member of his clan was appointed to succeed him. If he "played ball", he would be backed-up by all the "Pomp and Circumstance" of Empire. Mostly, they saw which side their bread was buttered on.

Danny.

Stanwell

9th Jul 2016, 00:06

May a mere colonial pipe up here?

Similar to your above-mentioned debacle in sending Vildebeests (an aircraft as ugly as its African namesake, IMHO) up against Zeros, our flyers were condemned to a similar fate.
I won't mention our Air Force losses in the Singapore rout (as well as nearly all of our Army's 8th Division) but the pathetic and futile sacrifice of our good fighting men generally, at that time, made a lot of people angry.
It was bloody obvious that we weren't going to stop the Japs, nor even slow them down.

In the farcical 'defence' of Rabaul, Wirraways (a close relative of the Harvard with two forward-firing .303s and a single in the rear) were repeatedly sent up against Japanese Zeros.
I hasten to add though, not the same ones - because they generally didn't come back.
Finally, I think it was seven Wirraways were sent up against 100 Japanese attackers.
After 'scramble' and as they were climbing out, a radio message was received by the 'tower' ... "We, who are about to die, salute you."
That was the last that was heard of them.

The question I ask is just what was the mentality behind that wanton waste of, not only life, but the few good pilots we had left?
I've not had a satisfactory answer yet.
I'm reminded of Captain Smith of the Titanic rushing on to the bridge and asking .. "My God, lads, where were you looking?"
People in 1942 were asking similar questions about certain military commanders being 'asleep at the wheel'.
.

CoodaShooda

9th Jul 2016, 01:05

For the purposes of historical accuracy, Stan :O:ok:

Gladiator's salute from Rabaul's air commander

With Rabaul, the main town on New Britain, facing imminent invasion by a Japanese fleet of more than 30 ships, Wing Commander John Lerew received a message from the Area Combined Headquarters at Townsville at 4.30 pm on this day, directing him to attack the approaching naval force. The previous day, Lerew had seen his No 24 Squadron all but annihilated in action against over 100 Japanese aircraft, his eight Wirraways being reduced to just two. Protesting the futility of delaying evacuation, he received a curt message from the Air Officer Commanding North-Eastern Area, Air Commodore Frank Lukis, to keep the airfield open. He replied with a message in imperfect Latin recalling the salutation of Roman gladiators: ‘We who are about to die, salute you!’ Ignoring a further message intended to remove him from command, and after consulting the Army commander, Lerew next day led his men away from Rabaul.

"Morituri vos salutamus"

Lerew survived the war and went on to become a senior manager at ICAO

eko4me

9th Jul 2016, 08:06

Just looked up this remarkable gentleman on the usual wiki and discovered the following little snippet that Danny might wish to comment on in that other Prince of Threads.

In September 1943, he investigated the crash of a Vultee Vengeance flown by an experienced aviator, and found that when rolling the aircraft to the right it was possible for the pilot's movements to release his safety harness, making it impossible for him to remain in his seat and control the aircraft. Lerew designed and developed a clip to prevent a recurrence of this mishap, which was later adopted worldwide for all such harnesses.

Stanwell

9th Jul 2016, 10:13

Thanks, Cooda. :ok:

NigG

9th Jul 2016, 10:25

Danny

Seems you're right about the Hill Station of Mount Abu. To quote from Wiki: 'Later it was leased by the British government from the then Maharaja of Sirohi for use as the headquarters of the resident to Rajputana (another name for Rajasthan)'. So it was a pukka British Hill Station, but the location was leased.

You make the point, very succinctly, about the wartime British being different from those of today. Having endured tough times during WW1 and its aftermath, they were bound to be. But I'm heartened to note that you think the quality of personnel in the modern RAF is every bit as fine as it was during the war... albeit 'different' in some respects. Arthur left the RAF in '71, similar to you. He thought that some aspects of the modern RAF is different from that of his time. I think there was a greater observance of hierarchy in his day; during the war, marriage was actively discouraged; it was a male preserve until 1939, after which women were given auxiliary roles to that of the men; it may also have been bit more 'laddish' (work hard/play hard), and discipline of the 'bull****' variety was more prominent. On top of that, you could find yourself serving in a great many more overseas territories.

On the other hand, I guess the modern RAF is far more technologically advanced, and is more professional and efficient as a result. (I think we discussed this before.) Also, women now play a full part in the Service. Arthur had rather traditional views on the latter: seeing women as being good in certain roles, such as clerical work. Times change... and sometimes for the better.

NigG

9th Jul 2016, 11:12

May a mere colonial pipe up here?
Ha! Modesty and irony in equal measure... brothers and sisters, all!

... the pathetic and futile sacrifice of our good fighting men generally, at that time, made a lot of people angry. It was bloody obvious that we weren't going to stop the Japs, nor even slow them down...

...The question I ask is just what was the mentality behind that wanton waste of, not only life, but the few good pilots we had left?

With hindsight, what you say makes sense... a waste of life in a hopeless cause. On the other hand, it wasn't in the British tradition to hoist the white flag without first putting up some sort of fight. It was a similar deal in WW1. To some British troops on the Western Front, it seemed pointless to keep up the pressure on the Germans over the miserable wintertime. By contrast, the French seemed to have a tacit agreement with their enemies in the trenches opposite, to go easy... lob a token shell or two, but not more. The British attitude was always to display 'fighting spirit'. And that attitude had a long history... personal honour was staked upon ones readiness to fight. A Captain in Nelson's Navy who, having spotted an enemy ship, failed to close with it, would likely be court-marshaled.

People in 1942 were asking similar questions about certain military commanders being 'asleep at the wheel'.

Quite so, it was a national disgrace, for Britain, Holland and the USA that they were so readily turfed-out of Southeast Asia. But, at least it was a fighting withdrawal, with many brave men losing their lives... not just a raising of white flags.

Danny42C

9th Jul 2016, 12:50

Stanwell (#228),

It would seem that I've "put the cat among the pigeons" in no mean manner. Let's sit back and enjoy...
...May a mere colonial pipe up here?...
No, Sir, you may not. You have not been "mere colonials" for a century and more, but fully independent, with only a token, sentimental link to the Crown. You and I know that yours was just a figure of speech, but there are other readers (notably our friends "over the pond"), who may take it at face value. Having said that, I must ruefully admit that I myself have used the term "Wild Colonial Boys" (in a friendly sense) more than once ! - and many Americans think of you (if they think of you at all) as a bunch of "Crocodile Dundees". Note the "Dundee" - the Highland Clearances still cast a long shadow ! (And the Penal days had a hand in it, too).

With the advantage of hindsight, we must all agree that the general drift of your argument is is correct. But the fact was that Pearl Harbor came as a complete shock to everyone, not just the US. At a stroke, all the large European colonies in the Far East (British, American [Phillippines ?], French and Dutch) were in "clear and present danger". What defences they had had been pared to the bone to reinforce the European war; they were in no position to resist the onslaught which followed immediately after the "day which will live in infamy".

Of course the Forces there had to "go down fighting". Where else had they to go ? Where was the shipping to evacuate them all to South Africa or Australia ? (a few lucky ones made it to India, but that was by no means a guaranteed "safe haven" then). If they waved the white flag, they could imagine (from the Chinese experience) what awaited them (and they would not have been disappointed).

We drew false comforts: the Japanese were not innovators, merely copyists, their fighter aircraft were flimsy little things which would drop to pieces if hit, their pilots were short-sighted and couldn't fly anyway, Pearl Harbor succeeded only because it had been just a treacherous, unprovoked attack on a nation with which they were at peace.

We had a rude awakening.

Danny.

Danny42C

9th Jul 2016, 14:28

CoodaShooda (#229),
...He replied with a message in imperfect Latin...
Not so ! In its original form, it was "te salutamus ", because the gladiators were addressing a single person (the Emperor). Now Lerew was (presumably) speaking to the whole Air Staff, so he used the accusative plural: "vos". (He would certainly have known the difference).

Recalls an amusing (true) story from 1950. The Pope had declared it to be a Holy Year, during which every Catholic priest was obliged to visit Rome at least once. The BEA marketing men saw an opportunity to get ahead of the game. They circularised every Catholic priest in the UK (in Latin), extolling the virtues of BEA. Nearly all replied (also in Latin), with various queries about prices, baggage allowances, timings, possible discounts etc.

BEA was floored, and had to hurriedly recruit a staff of (very expensive) Latinists to answer all the questions. As RyanAir had not been invented (AFAIK), I suppose they may have drummed up some extra traffic.
...Ignoring a further message intended to remove him from command, and after consulting the Army commander, Lerew next day led his men away from Rabaul...
Well done, Sir ! (spoken by one who himself has been threatened with Court Martial for not obeying orders).

Danny.

Danny42C

9th Jul 2016, 16:22

eko4me (#230),
...the following little snippet that Danny might wish to comment on in that other Prince of Threads...
Danny will flag it up on the (one and only) undoubted Prince ! (but, as he himself is witness, I'm sure that many others from there are keeping a keen eye on the proceedings here).
...Quote:
In September 1943, he investigated the crash of a Vultee Vengeance flown by an experienced aviator, and found that when rolling the aircraft to the right it was possible for the pilot's movements to release his safety harness, making it impossible for him to remain in his seat and control the aircraft. Lerew designed and developed a clip to prevent a recurrence of this mishap, which was later adopted worldwide for all such harnesses...
I can only comment on the basis of some 400 hours on them (all Mks I to III - A-31s). Neve flew a Mk.IV - A-35s), they were only used as target tugs.

This puzzles me. Never heard it before. The VV would do a very nice loop (you had to really wind it up to begin with) and a nice barrel roll to the left (never tried one to the right, but don't foresee any difficulty). So our chap must be talking about Slow Rolls. About these I've said somewhere: "It would need a brave man, with 10,000 ft of clear air below him, even to try (never tried, and never heard of anyone else trying either). For, when you got it on its left ear, it would immediately revert to default mode (brick) whatever you did. This suited us fine, as we always winged-over to the left into the dive. Never tried to wing-over right.

All this is bye-the-bye. What "safety harness" is he talking about ? "Seat Harness". I suppose. All I can remember is that I had a four-point American harness with a centre box (same as a parachute); I seem to recall that the release was a thing like a clock hand, which you tweaked clockwise to open. If the harness was good and tight, no way could he be thrown out in a right turn (and who would want to do a right roll ?) And what was this "clip" ? New one on me. Could he possibly be using a Sutton Harness (never saw a VV with one).

There were all sorts of myths surrounding the type. The OTU at Peshawar taught that you should never dive without a chap in the back - it would move the CoG too far forward to allow pull-out from vertical. All I can say is that I did 100+ practice dives in training on the Squadron, but this was in the early days when you always had a chap in the back to wobble-pump if needed. On 'ops', you would always have a "gunner" (who might be a nav who'd never fired a shot in his life). Apart from that, I did one "demo" dive, with a chap in the back, but the twin rear 0.303s (400 lbs including mountings, ammo tanks and ammo). had been taken out. Dived as normal, no trouble at all.

Danny.

Danny42C

9th Jul 2016, 16:34

NigG (#232),
..So it was a pukka British Hill Station, but the location was leased...
Leased ? Of course ! This was post-Independence. We were the Owners no more !
...Also, women now play a full part in the Service. Arthur had rather traditional views on the latter: seeing women as being good in certain roles, such as clerical work. Times change... and sometimes for the better...
Matter of opinion!

Danny.

Stanwell

9th Jul 2016, 16:57

Danny,
Our knowledgeable contributor, megan, kindly sent me a copy of Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown's impressions of the Vultee Vengeance.
It's actually an extract from his book, "Wings of the Weird and Wonderful".

Unfortunately, I don't have it to hand at the moment but I gained the impression that he'd only test-flown the Mk.IV.
Mind you, it pales into insignificance compared with what you've previously so beautifully described on the 'Brevet' thread.
Nonetheless, it's quite interesting and I wonder if I could prevail upon megan to post it on this thread.
What think you?

Danny42C

9th Jul 2016, 17:15

Stanwell,

By all means ! But this has come up for discussion a long time ago, He was not very impressed with the VV, regarding it as inferior as a dive bomber to the Stuka. We concluded that he'd got hold of a Mk.IV.

If megan can add anything to that, would be very interested !

Danny.

Stanwell

9th Jul 2016, 17:24

Oh well, look and see.
I'll contact megan and ask if he can convert it to a format which can be posted on here.
Anyway, in his fairly brief summation in that book, Eric Brown doesn't add too much to what we've already gleaned from your excellent posts and other sources.
Nonetheless...

BTW, I forgot that I hadn't thanked Nigel and yourself for your responses to the question of our military commanders being 'asleep at the wheel' in 1942. Ta.
.

NigG

10th Jul 2016, 18:02

Danny

With regard to Mt Abu Hill Station being leased, you concluded that this would have been so, as it was post-Independence. No, I think you were on the right track earlier. Wiki explains that the land belonged to the Rajah, being a princely State. So the Brits, not owning the land, had to cough-up in order to take advantage of the cool of the hills and build a Station. The British Resident made Mt Abu his base, very sensibly.

Also, I wrote:

'women now play a full part in the Service. Arthur had rather traditional views on the latter: seeing women as being good in certain roles, such as clerical work. Times change... and sometimes for the better.'

You replied:

'Matter of opinion!'

I thought I was cutting it a bit fine now and again! You, Sir, hold your life cheap! Don't you realise how many women are out there who would part you from your nearest and dearest for saying something only half so deprecating about women-kind? My advice is: keep your online anonymity in-tact... at all costs!

All women who happen to come across this post, please don't get confused. I am the one who thinks women have been under-rated for centuries. Danny is the one who doesn't! (Danny is also a lot more courageous than I am... a quality that's fully counter-balanced by his tendency to chauvinism!) ;)

Danny42C

10th Jul 2016, 21:42

Stanwell (extending my #234),
...we had a rude awakening...
First, it turned out that "a properly handled capital ship could not beat off air attack". This opened the door for the Jap armies to complete their conquest of colonial Asia (to this day, no one really knows why they stopped at the back door of India [for there was little to stop them going on]; the most probable explanation is that their LoC were just too long to stretch any further).

Even so, if they had pushed on just the short distance North to take Chittagong, it would have made the eventual reconquest of Burma much harder, for they then would have had a deep-water port to ship in supplies and reinforcements.

Then do you remember how we chuckled at the funny little Jap motorcycles when they first appeared in UK ? Then we woke up one day to find that we didn't have a motorcycle industry any more ? Much the same happened in the air. The "flimsy litle things which would fall apart if hit" turned out to be the carrier-based Mitsuibishi "Zero" and its similar, but less glamourous land based Nakajima "Oscar", the bane of our lives in Burma.
...In spite of its drawbacks, the Ki-43 [Oscar] shot down more Allied aircraft than any other Japanese fighter and almost all the JAAF's aces achieved most of their kills in it. (Wiki) [citation needed]...
The Japanese designers had taken to heart Igor Sikorski's famous exhortation: "Simplicate and add more lightness" (we tend to favour the opposite view). The result was that the Zeros and Oscars could "Float like a Butterfly, Sting like a Bee" (to coin a phrase ?) They could run rings round our more heavily armed and heavier fighters. In our case, the Hurricane IICs could blow an Oscar to bits if they could only get it in their sights - but the Jap pilot would need to be asleep for that to happen. It was only the strange myopia of the Japanese Army Commanders which saved our VVs being massacred in the air like the Battles in France (or the Wirraways in Rabaul).

They held the Oscars on the ground, wasting them in ineffective "sweeps" to strafe opportunity targets on our side. Why they did this is another of the unanswered questions of the war. It was not until the Spitfires came out in number that we had an answer to the Oscar.

Danny.

NigG

11th Jul 2016, 10:17

....the most probable explanation is that their LoC were just too long to stretch any further)... It was only the strange myopia of the Japanese Army Commanders which saved our VVs being massacred in the air... They held the Oscars on the ground, wasting them in ineffective "sweeps" to strafe opportunity targets on our side. Quite. Not only were their lines of communication over-stretched, the Japanese army was over-stretched, per se. That was reflected by their meagre rations, tatty uniforms and lack of 'Rest & Recuperation'. Of course everyone knows of their using Allied POWs to hurriedly construct supply railways to improve their lines of communication. When it came to the retaking of Burma, there were nine times as many Allied squadrons as the Japanese could muster. It's rather doubtful that they had the means to conduct an effective fighter air defence, ready to systematically intercept Allied offensive operations. Also, the RAF was doing an effective job of neutralising their air force. Well defended airfields might not be bombed, but the fuel and munition dumps, essential for their aircraft to operate, would be. (The precision Vultee 'Vengeance' played a role in that.)

The Japanese were on the back foot even before their failed thrust into India in 1944. Though the Japanese were extremely hard and courageous fighters, the Allies were much better resourced. And never let it be forgotten that the 14th Army achieved their victory in 1945 only because of the outstanding work done by the RAF and USAAF. Books about the campaign tend to paint the Air Force as being in a minor, supportive role, when in fact they were a decisive factor... as General Slim, the 14th Army commander, had no hesitation in admitting.

NigG

11th Jul 2016, 11:24

Before leaving the topic of Hill Stations, Danny, Arthur had a special memory of one of these places. The background to the tale was that, wherever they were posted, he always made a point of seeking out suitable priests to administer to the squadron.

At Ranchi, he came across a Catholic priest by the name of Father Jacquemotte. He was a Belgian in charge of a Mission in the vicinity. While having a drink with him in the Mess, Arthur learned that the priest had, with the fall of Belgium in WW1, escaped and joined the RFC, which whom he flew over the Western Front. The Germans had forbidden all Belgians from escaping to join the Allies, with the consequence that his family were rounded-up and executed, as an example to all. Arthur asked him when he had last flown, to which he replied that it was not since WW1. So he was offered a flight in the back of a 'Vengeance'.

As they walked out to the aircraft, Arthur asked what he would like to do... some aerobatics, a vertical dive or a low level flight. Jacquamotte's reply was 'Let's beat-up the Mission!' and this they proceeded to do, at low level and with repeated passes. Down below, was a sight to behold. All the nuns, priests and other staff came rushing out, madly waving sheets and aprons. The following day, a wooden box appeared on Arthur's desk. Inside was three bottles of vintage red wine, with a note that said 'NOT FOR MASS!'

Some weeks later, Father Jacquamotte told Arthur that he was looking very tired and that if he could take a few days off, he would arrange a short holiday for him. He was indeed tired and so agreed to his offer. Taking 84 Squadron's Equipment Officer with him, Arthur flew to Calcutta. There, the pair took the narrow-gauge 'Toy Train' up into the hills to arrive at the Hill Station of Darjeeling. They were guests in the Bishop's Palace and, in the absence of the Bishop, were given the use of his suite. The food and wine were excellent and, as a favour, Arthur presented the Sports Day prizes at the Catholic girls' school. The most memorable moment, however, was to for them be be up before dawn. They walked to a viewpoint and there before them was a panorama of the mighty Himalayas. Most prominent was the snowy peak of Kangchenjunga bathed, exquisitely, in the orange light of the rising sun.

Arthur said that his time at Darjeeling was truly a delight and that he and 'Pat' returned to the Squadron as 'new men'.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture414-640px-mt-kanchenjunga-1.jpg

Stanwell

11th Jul 2016, 11:49

Thanks for that insightful post, Danny.
Because (what we called) the South-West Pacific Area of operations was mainly the province of the Imperial Japanese Navy, the Mitsubishi A6M 'Zero' was our main worry.
The Ki-43 'Oscar' that you chaps had to deal with, I believe was every bit the equal of the legendary 'Zero' in capability.

Just as an aside, a late mentor of mine in the 60s, an old aviator by the name of Sid Marshall, had a complete and original 'Oscar' in his hangar.
'Knowledgeable' passers-by told their friends it was a Zero.
To complement that, he had a similarly complete and original Messerschmitt Bf109G hung from the rafters.

Additionally, just BTW, he also had, among other things, a couple of Spitfire Mk.VIIIs in his backyard.
I know, because I'd sat in them making 'vroom-vroom' noises.

I also had an inkling that, at the time, he had his eye on that Vultee Vengeance, EZ999, that we'd discussed previously.
People tended to regard him as a bit of an eccentric 'junk collector'.

NigG,
I quite agree on the score of the Japanese LoC/logistics capability.
It became reasonably apparent to us down here in the SWPA from 1943, if not earlier.
I can only think that the Jap 'senior management' were thinking they could keep us guessing for long enough to give them time to work out what to do.
Besides, they had the Emperor's blessing.
.

Danny42C

11th Jul 2016, 13:49

NigG (#243),

A thoughtful analysis of the critical campaign in the WWII Burma war. But in the early days, before the tide turned, it was a desperate affair, with our only objective being to stem the Japanese advance with whatever we'd got - which was not much. Indeed, when we were sent out in autumn 1942, India was widely regarded at home as a probable lost cause. We were intended to fly anything there was to hold off the Japs in a "last stand" to enable as many Europeans as possible to be evacuated before we were overrun.

Now we know that the line was held, and from 1944 we got on top of the Japs to carry the war to its sudden conclusion the next year. I have read that more Japanese soldiers were killed in Burma by British and Indian troops than in all the American Pacific island battles put together (but have no authority for this).

One small cavil:
.... It's rather doubtful that they had the means to conduct an effective fighter air defence...
They hadn't. But all it would take was a single pair of Oscars, well handled, to destroy a box of six Vengeance. Of course there was no radar, and no other early warning systems, and Burma is a big place. But our strikes on their defensive bunkers were so regular and predictable, that you would think it worth their while to put up a pair on patrol "on spec" for a day or two.

Our chosen tactic was to stick together, stand and fight. But half our six rear twin 0.303s were handled by navs with no gunnery training at all, or by ex-Blenheim turret chaps who'd last fired a round the year before. The omens were not good.

And the Hurricanes, who'd done the fighter affiliation exercises with us at Dum Dum, said that our box of six was so unhandy that they would have no trouble in keeping us in their sights. Very occasionally we had an escort of a section of Hurricanes. One pair would fly high cover, and the other guard our tails. We said these huddled close to us to enjoy the protection of our rear guns ! Obviously, a better idea would have been for us to scatter and run ! The Oscars might get one (or two), but otherwise they'd bag the lot. It was always "on the cards" - but luckily it never happened, but nobody knew why.

Danny.

NigG

12th Jul 2016, 17:06

Danny

... Interesting (as always). I had a look through Arthur's log book and noted that of the 108 operations he conducted over Burma, 4 were aborted in the air due to Jap aircraft being reported in the target area; on one occasion they saw 'bandits' heading in a different direction; and another occasion Arthur encountered Jap Oscars while in a 'Spitfire' (and brought one down).

A note at the end of March '44 states: 'Over 336 sorties carried out by Japanese fighters and bombers over N. Burma front, during last fortnight.' So, as you say, the Japanese were around but didn't make a concerted effort to protect key targets from Allied bombers (for whatever reason).

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture415-ki-43-oscar-high-school-girls-wave-kamikaze-pilot-1.jpg

(Above: Japanese Ki-43 'Oscar' fighter. School girls wave-off a kamikaze.)

I was interested, recently, to play the tape of his interview at the Imperial War Museum. Usuallly he talked with an air of nonchalance about his shooting down of the Oscar. On the tape, he was more candid. He was using the squadron's weather recce Spitfire to check the weather before the squadron took off on an operation. This was to avoid wasted fuel and aircraft hours if the cloud was impossible. He had dived through heavy cloud down to 4000' at which point he saw two Oscars 1500' above him. In the tape he admitted that he reacted as any bomber pilot might and scuttled for cloud cover. On coming out a few moments later, there was a single Oscar in front of him. He said 'Taking my courage in both hands... baring in mind I was a bomber pilot... I closed in'. Apparently he made the beginner's mistake of opening fire when too far away and consequently missed. He then got closer and fired again, seeing cannon shells strike home. Bits flew off the plane, which then turned on it's back and dived vertically into cloud over the mountain tops. He was at first credited with a 'probable kill', but this was later changed to 'confirmed' after an artillery unit confirmed the destruction of the Oscar.

This particular (taped) account was a rare instance of his talking frankly about his emotions. Invariably he was blase about his experiences, as if he was reluctant to admit to moments of 'weakness'. (Maybe that's a military man's thing?) But then he didn't have the skilled raconteur's gift of capturing the audience's imagination by fully sharing the moment. You Danny, of course, have that gift, as your many descriptions reveal. Most notably, the story of the loss of your aircraft. (page 8, post 154)

Danny42C

13th Jul 2016, 16:05

NigG (your #244),
...Before leaving the topic of Hill Stations, Danny, Arthur had a special memory of one of these places. The background to the tale was that, wherever they were posted, he always made a point of seeking out suitable priests to administer to the squadron...At Ranchi, he came across a Catholic priest by the name of Father Jacquemotte. He was a Belgian in charge of a Mission in the vicinity...
The RAF adopted that as policy in RAF(G) in 1960. Not enough RC chaplains to go round. At Geilenkirchen they recruited a Pater Gregor (a Cappuchiner [sub-species of Franciscan] from the monastery of Watersleyde just over the border in Holland). A genial white-haired, tough old Bavarian from Ulm, he spoke perfect, accent-free English (POW ? - never asked, should've done, he might have been in a Me109 in 1940 - so would have had a good long time to learn English).

Of course, the RAF paid him a stipend (which his Order would pocket - for he cannot sell his services) - and sent transport there and back for him on Sundays). Often had him for lunch with us. Knowing I was trying to learn colloquial German, he got his Abt to invite me over for a few hours one evening a week, where they put me in with a monk who knew no English (no mean feat in Holland) and left us to get on with it. Final triumph: told him the legend of St. Swithin and the forty days of rain (July 15th coming up, btw ?) The legend, it seems, not then known in Germany. It is now.

We could hear Mass in the RC Church in town, and it was still the Tridentine in Latin, but the first fruits of Vatican II were coming in. Sermon had always been in German, but now Epistle, Gospel and Paternoster too. But the Masses were of a formality strange to us: men one side of the aisle, women and children on the other. A robed Beadle with a massive rod of office stalked the aisle, marshalling newcomers to the correct side. A fearsome boss on his rod made it clearly inadvisable to argue.
...Down below, was a sight to behold. All the nuns, priests and other staff came rushing out, madly waving sheets and aprons...
Long excerpt from my "Pilot's Brevet" p.151 #3019 (the rest of it may be of interest):
...My debut at Cholaveram did not go down too well. Besides our Calibration Flight, there was another Flight of some kind on the field, and for the life of me I can't remember what they did. But to do it they had one Vengeance, among other types. It so happened that a snag on this aircraft had just been fixed. It needed an airtest and their own pilot was away. Could I do the airtest for them? Of course! Now it was a point of honour for the mechanic who had done the repair to fly as a passenger on the subsequent airtest. Not only for the obvious reason, but because the lads did not get many opportunities to fly, and enjoyed those they did.

My chap was keen, I organised a chute and a helmet for him, strapped him in, and off we went. I later found that their driver was non-operational, hadn't many hours on the thing, and was quite happy to get it from A to B straight and level and land. He'd ask no more from an aircraft on test. An operational Squadron pilot, on the other hand, would put a Vengeance through all its paces. After all, the next trip may well be a bombing sortie: if anything's going to fall off, you may as well find out now.

I told my passenger what I intended to do. He was agreeable, so after satisfying myself that the original fault had been fixed, I took it up to 12,000 ft, did a couple of loops and rolls, then finished off with a dive down on my passenger's Flight HQ. It was a good vertical dive, too, if I say so myself.

Now seven tons of metal screaming straight down on you at 300 mph, the row amplified by the slatted dive brakes and open bomb doors, is enough to make the stoutest heart quail, even if not followed by the thick end of a ton of bombs. (I believe the Stukas used this technique to stampede refugees off the roads in advance of their armour, and they had some sort of siren to make even more noise).

Our old squadron ground crews would take this racket in their stride, and not even bother to look up. But these people weren't so hardened. I don't suppose their Vengeance had ever been dived. It hadn't occurred to me, and if my passenger had thought about it at all, he kept quiet with a wicked grin. I scared the life out of them. Those indoors dived under tables, sending files, ashtrays and glasses of tea flying. In the open, they dropped flat, convinced their last hour had come. Their sweepers, char- and punkah-wallahs ran like rabbits, and it took days to round them up.

I was persona non grata there after that. They chalked up a notice on their crewroom blackboard: "VENGEANCE - NO AEROBATICS, NO VIOLENT DIVES" Then their own chap came back and managed to write it off (he was unhurt). Some wag added: "NO VENGEANCE". They complained to Freddie, but got no change out of him. The Station Commander/PMC reproved me with a broad grin.
...There [Ranchi - in W. Bengal], the pair took the narrow-gauge 'Toy Train' up into the hills to arrive at the Hill Station of Darjeeling...
The would have taken the overnight broad-gauge train up to Siliguri first, at dawn changing to the narrow-gauge "toy train" of "switchback railway" fame to complete the journey.
...They were guests in the Bishop's Palace and...
Jammy ! The best I could do was to meet the Assistant Principal RC Chaplain while recuperating in Calcutta. As a Group Captain, Fr. Feeny was allowed temporary membership of the Bengal Club, which turned away anyone under the rank of full Colonel or equivalent. He invited us to lunch there as his guests. Snag: "Stew" was still a Warrant Officer. Solution: borrow somebody else's cap and P/O's shoulder cuffs, "Stew" takes off his wristband with the "Two Dogs Fighting". Very reprehensible, of course, and the padre would have been chucked out of the Club had it been discovered, but we got away with it, had a superb lunch, and "Stew" was commissioned soon after anyway.
...They walked to a viewpoint and there before them was a panorama of the mighty Himalayas. Most prominent was the snowy peak of Kangchenjunga bathed, exquisitely, in the orange light of the rising sun...
Marvellous pic ! Went up to Darjeeling once (night train from Calcutta Sealdah station), got up at sparrow-fart and climbed (?) Tiger Hill. Everest in cloud, see nothing, waste of time, might just as well stayed in bed and bought postcard.
Have a little b/w print (94x40mm) in logbook, taken by "Stew" from back of VV at 10,000 ft one morning on Nepal boundary (70 miles south of Everest - whole story somewhere on my Posts).
...The following day, a wooden box appeared on Arthur's desk. Inside was three bottles of vintage red wine, with a note that said 'NOT FOR MASS!.
There was a good (true ?) story about the affinity between the juice of the grape and the RC clergy. Airfield in Burma is soon going to be overrun by advancing Jap troops in 1942. Squadron is getting ready to pull back. RC Padre is heartbroken by thought of leaving the Messes' stocks of wines and spirits to fall into enemy hands. Son of the soil as he was, he digs hole, buries the lot in Mess garden, and reinstates turf so expertly that no sign of any disturbance.

Tide of battle turns, Squadron and Padre comes back to same place. Padre grabs spade and digs. All there still - but all labels have come off and rotted. Only thing to do now, open them all and taste. Well, it's an awful job, but someone's got to do it....

Finished as a Monseigneur, I believe (honorary award, sort of "Long service and Good Conduct" badge). Well merited, I would've said. Should have been put up for a MBE.

(your #247),
...You Danny, of course, have that gift, as your many descriptions reveal...
Spare my blushes ! All it is, of course, is just the "Gift of the Gab" which comes with my Irish ancestry. Any one who has it can "talk the hind legs off a donkey", as my dear old Mum used to say.

Too long, sorry, Mr Moderator.

Danny.