Wg Cdr Arthur Gill, OBE, DFC

[NigG]

Danny

Your story of the air test of a Vengeance at Cholavrum, and your resulting unpopularity, reminds me of one of Arthur's antics.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture419-arthur-flying-blenheim-mk1-off-isle-man-radar-calibration-1940.jpg
(Arthur flying a Blenheim Mk1, off the Isle of Man, for radar calibration)

His first posting of the war was to Jurby, on the Isle of Man, where he was a staff pilot, taking trainee aircrew up to practice their various skills: notably bomb-aiming and gunnery over the sea. While there he got to know a family by the name of McKay. The father had owned a laundry business in York, but moved his wife and two daughters to the Isle of Man to escape the expected German bombing of mainland cities.

A good looking young man, Arthur was bit of a young woman magnet, and before long became good friends with one of the daughters. The family had a house overlooking the sea and Patricia asked him to zoom over the house sometime. This he did one day, on his way back from a training sortie. He lined up his Blenheim with the house, climbing up from sea level, intent on giving the roof timbers a good shaking. Fortune would have it that although his flying skills were spot on, his timing wasn't. Mrs McKay was at that moment sitting up in bed with a tray of tea balanced on her lap. As the two Bristol Mercury engines blasted over head, the outcome might easily be imagined... the whole lot went airborne and back down over her and the bed clothes.

He remarked:'After that, I was not at all popular, but to her great credit, Mrs McKay said nothing about it on my next (very much quieter) visit to her house!' :rolleyes:

[Danny42C]

NigG,
Quote:
...(Arthur flying a Blenheim Mk1, off the Isle of Man, for radar calibration)...
When I committed my unthinking act of terrorism, was serving on a (Radar) Calibration Flight.

Rather beaten-up stub nosed Mk.1 ! One summer day in 1938, two 16 year old cousins propped their bikes up on the hedge at the perimeter of Wyton (?), and in hopeless envy watched a couple of these doing circuits and bumps.

Tony went into the REME, I ended with "wings and rings".
...but moved his wife and two daughters to the Isle of Man...
It would have been Ramsey (which is to Douglas what Southport is to Blackpool). We had a fortnight there every year in the summer hols before the war. Never saw it again but once, in small twin SAAB turbo-prop Newcatle-Dublin. Glass-clear day, he flew down E.coast, from window could see beach, harbour and Mooragh Park lake (complete with tiny island in middle) where I (12 ?) went solo after 10 mins instruction in little old tub with just enough sail to give steerage way.

Beating-up girl friend's house strictly forbidden - but often done := But remember the "up" part. You should reach your low point before you reach the house, then climb up over the roof. Lovelorn swain goes over still going down, object of affections waving madly in garden, takes "eye off the ball"......CRRUMP ! :eek: Happened many a time.

Eheu, fugaces.....

Danny.

[Union Jack]

.....where I (12 ?) went solo after 10 mins instruction in little old tub with just enough sail to give steerage way.

Your Day Skipper's certificate is in the post......:ok:

Jack

[Danny42C]

Jack,

Well thankee, kind sir ! But am "on the beach" for good now, and the best definition of a boat is:
"A hole in the water, lined with mahogany, into which you pour money"

[Danny42C]

Walter (#251),

Afterthought:
He remarked:'After that, I was not at all popular, but to her great credit, Mrs McKay said nothing about it on my next (very much quieter) visit to her house!'

But said :mad: to her daughter on the day !

Danny.

[Danny42C]

NigG (your #241),
...All women who happen to come across this post, please don't get confused. I am the one who thinks women have been under-rated for centuries. Danny is the one who doesn't! (Danny is also a lot more courageous than I am... a quality that's fully counter-balanced by his tendency to chauvinism!)...
How could I have overlooked this bait for so long, and not risen to it ? (only excuse, there was a lot on at the time, what with Everest and Darjeeling and padres and buried booze and all that).

Now don't get me wrong. I do not denigrate women per se. "many of my best friends have been women" (after all, I married one !) and have a mother and a daughter, too. Nor do I question their suitability for many rôles in the RAF. In my own speciality (Air Traffic Controller), I saw the first wave of their reintroduction in the early sixties, instructed several of them (and mentored one ot two) during my three years on the School at Shawbury. Subsequently, on my last tour at Leeming, I watched three or four of the Shawbury alumnae blossom into alert and competent young Local, Approach and Radar Controllers, fully equal to the young gentlemen who had taken short-service Commissions in the Branch at the same time as they.

Only trouble was - we didn't get the length of service in return for the time and expense of their training (nor should we have expected to). I cannot think of one of ours who served out her full Commission - they were all married off before then. On the contrary, one of the young men at Leeming made a full career and finished as a Wing Commander, as did another who had been through Shawbury in my time. Others transferred to General List and served to pension age. Some left the RAF to make their way in Civil ATC.

Our ATC WRAF were simply uneconomic. As for the pilots we now train, words fail me ! The cost of training an RAF Pilot must now be astronomic; if she then calls it a day and resigns on marriage, the taxpayer carries the loss.

As for a paean to misogyny, I can only recommend: "The Earl oF Chesterfield's Letters to His Son" (your local librarian will order it for you after she has recovered from the shock). In the days when "Male Chauvinist Pig" was all the rage, I found a very effective riposte to be to ask the scoffer what a "Chauvinist" actually was (Most had no idea).

Stand by for incoming ! :*

Danny.

[Fantome]

#228 . . . ..


Stanwell
I won't mention our Air Force losses in the Singapore rout (as well as nearly all of our Army's 8th Division) but the pathetic and futile sacrifice of our good fighting men generally, at that time, made a lot of people angry.
It was bloody obvious that we weren't going to stop the Japs, nor even slow them down.





While I am no student of military history relating to the fall of Singapore, there is a school of thought that the Jap push down the Malaysian Peninsula to Singapore could have been checked and perhaps turned round had General Percival been other than he was . .. a commander lacking highly developed tactical skills . . . unable or unwilling to use the intelligence to hand to act decisively. He dispersed his defences when he would have been far more effective mounting a pincer tactic to cut off the Japs supply lines which by then were desperately strung out. (This is the view of old mate, a Vietnam vet, one who has read widely on Australian military history pertaining to the war in the Pacific. )

CN Trueman - 'The Fall of Singapore.' -

Only the army could stop the Japanese advance on Singapore. The army in the area was led by Lieutenant General Arthur Percival. He had 90,000 men there – British, Indian and Australian troops. The Japanese advanced with 65,000 men lead by General Tomoyuki Yama****a. Many of the Japanese troops had fought in the Manchurian/Chinese campaign and were battle-hardened. Many of Percival’s 90,000 men had never seen combat.



RE: fall of Rabaul
After 'scramble' and as they were climbing out, a radio message was received by the 'tower' ... "We, who are about to die, salute you."
That was the last that was heard of them.

The RAAF squadron leader, John Lerew ,who uttered that immortal Latin tag survived the war to later become Australia's chief delegate to ICAO in Montreal.

from a 1945 Sydney Morning Herald article -

John Lerew, whose name has
become a legend for laconic
humour, A literally classical ex-
ample of this was the signal he
sent to R.A.A.F headquarters on
January 21 1942— the eve of Rabaul's fall
— "Morituri te salutamus " (We who
are about to die salute you)
Actually they did not die. The
Japanese landed in force at Rabaul
on the night of January 22-23 and
the R.A.A.F. personnel there were
evacuated by Empire flying-boats
after a long trek down the coast to
a secret rendezvous.

[Fantome]

Danny42C
Beating-up girl friend's house strictly forbidden - but often done But remember the "up" part. You should reach your low point before you reach the house, then climb up over the roof. Lovelorn swain goes over still going down, object of affections waving madly in garden, takes "eye off the ball"......CRRUMP ! Happened many a time.

It happened to a friend of dad's permanent RAAF in Canberra in the late fifties.
AIRCDE Lloyd Davies, who was having a Christmas drink at our place.
He recounted how at the end of his basic training at Point Cook in 1938 he took a Wapiti on a solo nav-ex to a property on the outskirts of Deniliquin . ( locally known as "Deni", a town in the Riverina region of New South Wales close to the border with Victoria.) . It was the home of Lloyd's mate on the same course at Point Cook. There on that sunny Sunday afternoon , driven by lustful or romantic thoughts of the daughter of the family, Lloyd shoved the nose down into a steep dive at the object of his affections whom he thought he could see waving frantically next to the tank stand (always good to stand near a tree , a tank stand or other obstacle to a clear path of display.) At what Lloyd in his ignorance thought was the right height to pull out, he hauled back on the stick, only to have the poor old lumbering Wapiti carry her momentum flat into the garden. (****-oh-dear. . . . . it is not recorded what he said to Felicity (mate's sister) upon emerging from the wreckage .. . but what a shot that would make to supply the apt caption.) What story Lloyd told his superiors is also left to the imagination. . . . but whatever it was he lived to fly and fight another day. (He gave me back then in Canberra days a snapshot of a CAC Boomerang he had once flown. On the back of the photo he had written "Boomerang - Ground-looping little bastard."

[NigG]

Danny

I have to say... your are a 'wonder'! Plainly, you are 94, otherwise you wouldn't be young enough to have served in WW2. Yet, unlike my father (of similar vintage), you really are on the ball. Arthur would have been flummoxed by the term 'misogyny'... and I, even, at 62, struggle to spell the damn thing! However, am I not right in saying that women are no longer obliged to resign from the Services on becoming pregnant? In other words, giving a woman an expensive training is no longer a waste of tax payers' money if she procreates. Similarly, I can imagine that in the past, women would usually become housewives after marrying (if their husband had enough money to support them both). But now-a-days running a home tends to be a shared activity. So neither marriage nor having a child should now interfere with a woman's Service career.

However, my Politically Correct credentials fully on display, I will return to the good old days of the all-male RAF! What prompts me is my having scanned a few more photos from Arthur's collection. The date is 1937-9, when he learned to fly in the RAFVR at the 'London Air Park', Hanworth, North London. First, a view of the location. Only Hanworth House (then a hotel) still stands (though it's now sealed-up). The hanger, machine gun range (top right) and concrete apron, installed in 1938, are long gone. The ground where they stood now gets paced by people walking their dogs, on what is now a public amenity area:

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture423-london-air-park-rafvr-training-facilities-hanworth-house-right.jpg

The following picture shows Arthur seated, ready to demonstrate his skills for his final Wings test:

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture424-arthur-s-final-wings-test-hart-trainer.jpg

Lastly, Arthur about to take-off to practice formation flying:

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture425-arthur-about-take-off-formation-flying-practice.jpg

The latter was with Flt Lt Rowley, the ex-chief pilot with Alan Cobham's Flying Circus, mentioned earlier in the Thread. Some of Arthur's early lessons were with this instructor. On one occasion, he got told to 'Hurry up!' as he walked out to the aircraft, a Blackburn B2. Arthur quickly clambered in, not giving himself time to do up his parachute harness or strap himself in. Rowley started the engine and immediately took-off and then headed west, evidently in some sort of hurry. After a while he started a steep turn and shouted 'There they are!' Arthur replied through the Gosport intercom: 'Yes Sir... who?' They were now flying low over Windsor Great Park and back came the answer: 'The King and Queen, of course!' Sure enough, below was a Landau. In it were King George V and Queen Mary, the open carriage being towed by four white horses. They were on their way from Windsor Castle to Ascot to open the racing season. Going round again, Rowley suddenly closed the throttle and put the aircraft into a steep glide alongside the procession. Then, a moment later, opened up again and pulled the aircraft sharply to the right, behind a row of trees. Afterwards, Arthur had a bit of a story to relate. The aircraft had certainly been identifiable from the lettering on its side... what would be their fate? A couple of months in the Tower? Happily, nothing came of it, so Arthur had no reason to regret this early lesson in just having a bit of fun! :ok:

[Stanwell]

Thanks for your post#257, Fantome.

Re the Malayan Peninsula Defence, I'd heard a few things said about General Percival and his conduct of that defence - not too many of them complimentary.
Of course, many theories had been advanced as to how that defence could have been better conducted.
Having said that, though, I wonder just how many of those critics were actually there. I, too, hold a Degree in Hindsight.
As had been noted earlier, the big problem was more deeply-rooted than that.


Re the 'attempted defence' of Rabaul, you'll note that I was referring to the aircrew specifically.
CoodaShooda kindly came in with the historically correct sequence of events in his post #229.

Sqn Ldr Lerew had lost twelve of his aircrew on the previous day and had just two operational Wirraway "fighter" aircraft left - which would not have lasted five minutes against the Japanese invading forces.
The 1945 Herald article was correct insofar as the Squadron managed to evacuate at the last minute.
That would not have been the case had John Lerew followed orders.

[CoodaShooda]

Those who got away were the lucky ones.
Around 160 troops subsequently captured at Rabaul were marched off to Tol Plantation and bayoneted to death.

[MPN11]

Danny42C ... I beg to differ with your #256 perspective on WRAF ATCOs amortising their training costs. It may have been true in the past (or was it just a rumour?) but I can assure you we monitored this carefully both at Innsworth, Commands, and in my 'Personnel and Training' office at NATS. We obtained full value from the training, and for every 'dolly-bird' who bagged a pilot there were plenty of others who completed a SSC, obtained a Permanent Commission, and served to 38 or even 55.

I shall now resume our holiday (currently in Anchorage, AK) ;)

[Danny42C]

NigG (your #259),
...Yet, unlike my father (of similar vintage), you really are on the ball. Arthur would have been flummoxed by the term 'misogyny'... and I, even, at 62, struggle to spell the damn thing!...
Arthur had no need of the word: it had not entered the everyday language.
... So neither marriage nor having a child should now interfere with a woman's Service career...
On what planet are we living ? We're trying to run an Air Force here ! Can't anyone see that that proposition makes an unanswerable case for not having them in front-line service at all ?. In an auxiliary rôle, certainly. We had our WAAF (Women's Auxiliary Air Force): the Luftwaffe its Luftwaffehilferinnen . Worked well enough on the day.

Lovely pics of a vanished era ! In No.2, what is that tripod-like affair in front of the "Hart" ? Something to do with the Hucks Starter, perhaps ?
...Sure enough, below was a Landau. In it were King George V and Queen Mary...
A hanging offence now ! We can only marvel at what they could get away with on those sunlit days of the thirties.

Danny.

[Danny42C]

Fantome (#257),

The story of the loss of Singapore is one of the saddest in our military history. Churchill himself termed it "the worst disaster" in that history. Although we arrived in India less than a year after it had happened, we knew nothing beyond the simple fact that it had done so. Wiki gives (as far as I can see) a balanced and factual account of the seven fatal days: (8th-15th February 1942). Reading it is like watching a train crash in slow motion.

In the years since it has been minutely analysed by military historians: popular opinion has heaped the blame on Percival and his subordinate generals, but I have seen little reference to what may have been the "Achilles Heel" of Singapore - the fresh water supply.

Wiki makes glancing reference to this in its sober account as follows:
...[1] With the vital water supply of the reservoirs in the centre of the island threatened, the Australian 27th Brigade was later ordered to recapture Bukit Panjang as a preliminary move in retaking Bukit Timah.[102] The effort was beaten back by fierce resistance from Imperial Guards troops...
and
...with the British 18th Division being tasked to maintain control of the vital reservoirs...
and
...[13 February] Elsewhere, the Japanese captured the water reservoirs that supplied the town, although they did not cut-off the supply...
and
...The following day, the remaining Allied units fought on. Civilian casualties mounted as one million people[118] crowded into the 3-mile (4.8 km) area still held by the Allies and bombing and artillery fire increased. Civilian authorities began to fear that the water supply would give out. At this time, Percival was advised that large amounts of water were being lost due to damaged pipes and that the water supply was on the verge of collapse ......... ...................By the morning of 15 February, the Japanese had broken through the last line of defence; the Allies were running out of food and ammunition. The anti-aircraft guns had also run out of ammunition and were unable to disrupt Japanese air attacks which were causing heavy casualties in the city centre.............After heated argument and recrimination, all present agreed that no counterattack was possible. Percival opted for surrender.....
I would say, that with the Japanese now in a position to cut off the city's fresh water supply, he had little option

Of course, the first (impregnable ?!!) line of defence was supposed to have been the Navy. Churchill had sent out a "task force" of two battleships, the ageing "Repulse" and one of our newest and best, the "Prince of Wales", with a defensive screen of destroyers. Had that group been at sea barring the path of the invasion transports, the landings in Malaya could never have taken place. But we know what happened to the "properly handled capital ships that could always beat off air attack" - they couldn't.

They had no air cover as they sailed north, and maintained radio silence so as not to alert the invasion fleet. It was hard luck that they were spotted by a Japanese reconnaissance aircraft. It saw them, so they probably saw it (but remained quiet). Not until after the first crippling blow from the torpedo bombers did Admiral Phillips break radio silence. Not to ask for air cover against the second attack which would surely come, but to signal Singapore for a tug to help his POW, limping along at 1½ knots on one shaft, back to port.

The second attack came, he went down in his flagship, the Navy lost 1500 (?) men. Singapore was wide open.

That was the story as I heard it at the time.

(Your #258),
...It happened to a friend of dad's permanent RAAF in Canberra in the late fifties...
He was very lucky to escape alive !
...Ground-looping little bastard."...
Not the only one. The Harvard was notorious. And a Vengeance on one or two occasions ! I suppose it is possible in any tail-dragger (but never heard of a Spitfire doing it).

Danny.

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (YOUR #262),
...Danny42C ... I beg to differ with your #256 perspective on WRAF ATCOs amortising their training costs. It may have been true in the past...
Sir, I defer to your much greater knowledge of this. But I can "only speak as I found" about my last few years at Leeming before retirement in 1972.

In that time we had only a small handful of new WRAF Controllers, all good-lookers in the full bloom of their youth. As an AFS, each was outnumbered 50 to 1 by normal, fit and healthy young bachelors living in the same Mess, roughly of the same age as themselves: having survived OASB these would have been "above average" in comparison with the locals with whom they had previously been acquainted.

Well, it just had to happen (didn't it ?) - "you can't stop the sun from shining !"

It may well have been that in later years some would decide to make the RAF a full career, and be very successful. Indeed, had I decided to take up the option (thank God I didn't) to extend to 55, in my next posting I might have greeted my new SATCO with an Elizabethan flourish and a "Good Morning, Ma'am ! (having had the same kind of shock which the sight of my first Sqn Ldr without ribbons below his wings gave me in the early '50s).

Made me realise I was one of "Yesterday's Men" - and my time was up !

Danny.

[NigG]

Danny

'One of yesterday's men', you wrote. I'm pretty sure that Arthur had similar thoughts. He admitted to clashing with a number of superiors. It must have been frustrating to have so much knowledge, experience and expertise, then to find someone of doubtful background but superior rank telling you that you are wrong, or otherwise think it appropriate to breath down your neck.

I recall something related that he wrote about, as follows...

'In March 1953, I assumed command of Old Sarum, which, among other things, was the home of the School of Land/Air Warfare (later renamed JWE). The commander of the LAW was an Air Vice Marshal. I called on him on the day I took up my post as Station Commander. For the first few days he was continually on my back - "this is wrong!" - "that needs altering!" After the third day, I'd had enough. I said to him "Will you please give me a month to find my feet and decide what needs to be changed. If I have not settled-in to your satisfaction by this time, you can ask Command HQ to find a new Station Commander". He had a look of utter astonishment on his face, but agreed so to do. I never had any trouble with him after that, and we became good friends.'

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture439-arthur-1959.jpg

[Danny42C]

NigG (#966),

I agree. The very worst type of Senior Officer in the one who tries to micro-manage his subordinates. Give a chap a job to do - and then let him get on with it ! - is by far the best policy. If he then screws-up, get rid of him and appoint somebody else. We all learn best from our own mistakes - if we're allowed to do so.

Danny.

[MPN11]

Mercifully, during my 2 tours as a SATCO, all my OC Ops and Stn Cdrs let me get on with doing the job I knew. I express my gratitude to them all, even if I did have to have 'sharp words' with one OC Ops on one occasion ;)

[NigG]

MPN11
Ahh... you can't leave us hanging on your last words!! And how is Anchorage and the great Alaska? :)

Danny
Beautifully summing-up of what it is to have a respectful boss. (But, from you, I'd expect nothing less!)

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

An' all those whales 'n things ? Remember, that is not Moby Dick, and you're not Captain Ahab any more. ("Thar she blows!")

Safe trip home - tell your Captain to "Fly Low 'n Slow, 'n plenty of top rudder on the corners".

NigG,

Mercifully, I have always been blessed with such Bosses - apart from one who didn't know me from Adam, and another who didn't know what day it was most of the time (no names, no pack drill).

Danny.

[MPN11]

Greetings, chaps! Thanks for asking - both Arizona and Alaska were very interesting, and warm and sunny! Now recovering from the journey home: we left Anchorage at 0125 on Friday, and flew via Phoenix, Charlotte and Dublin back to Jersey, a 30-hour trip ending at 1300 on Saturday [all times local] :)

Anyway ... my only 'clash' was with an OC Ops who also happened to be an old buddy [I shall avoid identifying him]. From my back office I was aware that he was giving my young fg off Watch Supervisor a hard time about something, so I intervened. In the subsequent "May we continue this in the privacy of your office, Sir?", I suggested that if he had a perceived problem he should use the 'chain of command' and address his concerns to me in the first place - instead of giving a fg off a hard time over professional ATC matters. He took my point, graciously, because he was that sort of 'good bloke'.

Actually, I now recall we also had a 'lively debate' about something in the Mess one evening. I realised in the morning that I had probably pushed the boundaries a bit far, and went to his office to apologise. I knocked, and when he called "Come in" I opened the door and entered walking on my knees, apologising as I did so. He laughed, accused me of drinking "Vino Furioso" the night before, and we both moved on ... contentedly.

Another OC Ops [elsewhere] used to come and 'hide' in my office, drinking my freshly-brewed filter coffee, when the Stn Cdr was giving him a hard time. "Only my PA knows where I am, and he's sworn to silence" ;)

Indeed, my SASO also did that at HQ 11 Gp, hiding from the AOC ... and he also used to raid my box of cigars. I always felt I provided some form of 'Social Services' to some of my bosses :)

[NigG]

MPN11

Ha! Very amusing! Actually what you related also gives an insight into what sort of person you are (..if you don't mind my saying so). I rather think someone who would be good to work for, and with. (30 hours trip home? ..Rather you than me!)

The issue of leadership-style is something anyone who's served in the Forces would be able to talk about at length. Arthur had a sobering experience with his first CO on 84 Sqn. This Wing Commander was notorious for his 'sergeant-major-like' characteristics. The squadron was at a landing ground in the Western Desert, in 1941. It was an interesting place, having been 'relieved' from the Italians, with various wrecked enemy aircraft littering the place. It was both rudimentary and susceptible to attack, so the squadron had to dig-in. The three aircrew of each Blenheim IV dug a group sleeping shelter, and in addition to this a Mess shelter was dug for meals and team get-togethers. The CO's order was that the latter would be dug by everyone first, after which crews would be free to work on their own shelter. For reasons unknown, Arthur, a Flying Officer and recent arrival to the squadron, and his two colleagues, both Flight Sergeants, got stuck into digging their shelter before work had started on the one for the Mess. After a short while, the CO came storming over and tore the three of them off a strip for disobeying him. (I tend to visualise the three of them standing to attention, but firmly braced against the severe blast emanating from the CO's voicebox!) I doubt there are many F/Os who would relish being told-off in front of their subordinates, especially in that manner.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture441-arthur-crew-western-desert-1941.jpg

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture442-arthur-his-crew-dugout-western-desert.jpg

I might add that the CO in question went on to become an Air Vice Marshal. So, I guess his capacity to make people jump must have impressed someone, somewhere. :confused:

[Danny42C]

(Rescued from "Pilot's Brevet"....... Danny got it wrong - again !)

MPN11 (#271)

Welcome home !

The story of your various contretemps with Higher Authority are typical. I have on occasion had to rebuke a young officer for diving in to solve a disciplinary matter, or a dereliction of duty by an airman, on his own, when the correct thing to have done was to bring in the NCO concerned to deal with it. (And, to put it mildly, if there's any shouting or "effin' n' blindin'" to be done, your NCO is the man to do it).

NCOs (I was one for 12 months) hate being "left out of the loop" like this . it undermines their authority. I always kept in mind a story from my father. His Company was on the march in France (WWI). They were marching "at ease" and becoming rowdy, but not unduly so. The Captain became irritated. But instead of ordering my father to "quieten the men down, Sergeant" (which my father was well able to do), he bawled at the men himself. The troops were shocked, my father felt useless, and it did nothing to improve the trust which should always exist between his officer and himself.
...Another OC Ops [elsewhere] used to come and 'hide' in my office, drinking my freshly-brewed filter coffee...
(Was it Rombouts ?)
and
...Indeed, my SASO also did that at HQ 11 Gp, hiding from the AOC ... and he also used to raid my box of cigars. I always felt I provided some form of 'Social Services'...
I would suspect their motives ! (Indeed, I would suspect yours, did I not know that you were already at the top of the greasy pole of the Branch) "Fresh brewed filter coffee" ? "Box of cigars" ? How do I get a posting to your outfit ? It can't get much better than that !

And there was me, gasping for a cuppa, as yet another intake of baby Hoskinses reached Controlled Descent phase and heaped up far over my grizzled head (the while wailing: "I got it up here - now you get me down !")

(your #8960),

Buttons, Trousers - Escapers for the Use Of.

The "pivot" button was a good idea. But you would need a fairly level surface. Can't remember them. Our button had to be hung on a bit of thread. Now that I come to think about it, I agree that the tiny luminous spot was on the outside flange of the button. But surely that was wrong ? If the "goons" got the slightest hint of the idea, all they would have to to do would be to parade the prisoners in a dark room, switch out the lights - and look for glow-worms ! :ok:

[pzu]

Apologies NigeG, but the second/lower photo in your post #272 intrigues me - can you please identify the aircraft in the background, is it a Bristol Bombay?

Thanks

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[MPN11]

NigG ... regardless of 'status', we are always 'people' and thus surely should always behave appropriately? If a chap needs to hide somewhere for a coffee and a cigar, who was I [a humble sqn ldr] to deny a 1* a bit of happiness? The same rule would have applied to any of my team.

Danny42C ... one surely makes the best of one's environment, wherever and whatever level it might be? Whether it's a hole in the sand, or filter coffee! I had my own furniture, lighting and accoutrements in my SATCO's office, and indeed had to dissuade the Stn Cdr from stealing my 'vintage' RAF desk!

Pretentious? Moi? Just comfort, and perhaps a management tool ;)

[Brian 48nav]

When I was at Changi 67-69 the Stn Cdr was Grp Capt Eric 'Peter' Merriman, I recall a fairly popular man particularly with us Herc' crews. He had flown the Herc' on exchange with the USAF before the RAF got them.

In 1970 some of my mates who had been co-pilots on 48 were doing their captain courses and as part of that they made a visit to 38Group at Upavon. Knowing Groupie Merriman was now on a staff tour there, they made a point of calling into his office to say hello. While exchanging pleasantries, all of a sudden came a shout from the adjoining office, that of the AOC, " Merriman, get your arse in here ".

The mate who told me this, a junior Flt Lt, was quite shocked to hear the Grp Capt spoken to in that fashion. I similarly, had I been there, would have equally been shocked. How the mighty had fallen, one day OC one of the largest stations in the RAF, the next a mere office boy!

It wasn't until about 4 years ago when I read Merriman's obituary in the Telegraph that I realised the shout must have been made in jest, as he and the AOC had been young fighter pilots on the same squadron in 1941.

[Danny42C]

MPN11 ,

... one surely makes the best of one's environment...

It is the mark of the "old soldier" that he makes himself as comfortable as possible wherever he is.

Danger may be inescapable, but the man who endures unecessary discomfort is a fool !
(Hence my air-transportable charpoy in Burma).

Danny.

[NigG]

DZU

I seem to recall asking my father the same question about the wrecked aircraft in the photo, and I think he said it was Italian. (Now there's a challenge!) The landing ground had been in Axis hands and there were wrecked German aircraft there too. But, obviously, the aircraft in question wasn't one of theirs.

Continuing on from my previous post about Arthur getting a roasting from his CO, he had little story about another, and very different style of encounter with a superior. In this case, one who was very much a superior.

Having escaped from Sumatra in the wake of the Jap invasion, and arriving by ship at Karachi (then in India, now in Pakisthan), Arthur was at something of a loose-end; only 132 of 84 Squadron having got out with him, and all of the aircraft had been lost. He was therefore attached to 301 Maintenance Unit at Karachi. One of his first jobs was to take an Imperial Airways flying boat back to Egypt to collect a Hurricane and ferry it down to India, in the company of eleven others. Having arrived in Egypt, he was accommodated on a Thomas Cook Nile steamer, this being used as a 'Transit Officers' Mess'. The following morning a Group Captain arrived and asked 'Are you Ft Lt Gill?'. 'Yes Sir!'. 'Air Marshall Tedder, the C-in-C, want s to see you. Will you report to his ADC at 4 pm'. Arthur duly got himself to AHQ, only to find that this wasn't AM Tedder's HQ. So he eventually arrived a bit late for the appointment at HQ Middle East Air Force. He wrote:

'I was ushered in to AM Sir Arthur Tedder's office, whereupon a silver tray of tea was brought in for the Air Marshal. This he passed to me and another, of rather inferior crockery, was brought in for him. He asked me all about my experiences in Sumatra and whether I knew of the fate of (his friend) AVM Pulford, Air Officer C-in-C, Far East Air Force. I told him that I hadn't seen any Air Officers and, together with the squadron, had been intent on bombing the Japanese invasion fleet, landing areas and airfields until the very end. We had lost 24 aircraft in five weeks'.

Tedder had previously seen 84 Sqn off from the airfield, when it left his command, bound for the Far East (...and oblivion). He very much regretted their, and other squadrons', departure to shore-up the Far East in view of the imminent threat from the Japanese. I've seen RAF newsreel footage of AM Tedder... I guess we all have... and he comes across as a very genial man. The sort of person you would want to work for. As such, he stands in contrast to Arthur's CO in the Western Desert... who was a driver rather than a leader. Arthur must have felt somewhat flattered to have been consulted by Tedder, and to have been treated so cordially.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture444-am-tedder-c-c-middle-east-air-force-1942.jpg

I rather wonder whether this encounter was to have an empowering effect on Arthur. Some weeks later, it still hadn't been decided what the fate of the remnants of 84 Sqn was to be. Most likely, the personnel would be assigned elsewhere and the squadron would be disbanded. Arthur decided to fly up to Delhi and speak to ACM Sir Richard Pierse and his staff at Air Command India. He argued for the squadron, which had served since 1917, to be reformed and re-equipped, and thus be given a chance to hit back at the Japanese. He was successful and perhaps his earlier meeting with the great man Tedder had been a factor in the whole affair.

[MPN11]

... one day OC one of the largest stations in the RAF ... You might think that, but those at Tengah and Akrotiri [in their heyday] might disagree :)

PS: yes, I worked in Changi Tower on detachment for a couple of weeks from Tengah, as a rest tour - and to teach the guys how to use their new "PAR" ;)

It is the mark of the "old soldier" that he makes himself as comfortable as possible wherever he is. Indeed, Sir! My tent at Bisley, for the annual shooting Championships, was fully carpeted and furnished. Any fool can be uncomfortable ;)

[NigG]

MPN11

Very nice photo of you and your desk. I was going to write something about certain people being wasted in the Air Force... and how better they might have suited the portals of No.10.

(But... decided that discretion is the better part of valour!) ;)

PS. That said, am I not correct in saying there was an unfurled Union Jack standing in the corner, just out of shot?

[Danny42C]

NigG,

An unfurled Union Flag (surely not ! - that would be overkill !) Had a good look, couldn't see it. Was there a hatstand in the corner ? (in the Civil Service, the sign of a Very Superior Person).

What sybaritic luxury ! (no wonder MPN11 hid his face in shame !). And there was me, with an old anteaten trestle and a couple of halved petrol tins on it, trying to keep abreast of the paperwork.

There's no justice ! All right for some !

Danny.

[Danny42C]

http://samilitaryhistory.org/vo142mdc.jpg
"You know, the things we used to wear in England."
The first thing you notice about them is their clothes. In no way are they wearing standard Army Issue! James explains, 'Long before the Eighth Army came into official existence, the men of the Army of the Nile and of Western Desert Force had achieved a reputation for a certain eccentricity of dress. The reason for the appearance of suede boots, silk scarves, corduroy trousers, sheepskin coats and shaggy pullovers was never merely the desire to be different, or to assume the distinctive clothing that would mark the wearer as a desert soldier.' In fact, the reasons were purely practical, to help them cope with conditions not imagined by the designers of 'War Office Sealed patterns'



NigG (revisting your #272),
... I doubt there are many F/Os who would relish being told-off in front of their subordinates, especially in that manner...

True. Best general rule: admonish a subordinate in private, compliment him in public. Not always possible in practice.

Picture No.1 : The aircraft behind them is, of course, a Blenheim IV. But "Caliph of Baghdad" (?) Have seen a lot of "nose art" in my time, most of it of a more "earthy" nature than this ! The "Varga" long-stemmed beauties ("Saturday Evening Post") were favourites, as on our side was "Jane" (Daily Mirror).

I believe the desert gets quite chilly at times, otherwise your three chaps might have been too warm. Skipper (on left) recalls Jon's "Two Types" (see - hopefully - sketch above). The other two have KD tunics (not much work done on buttons !) with shirt, collar and tie (Nav ?) or open shirt (AG).

Far too warm for India/Burma (except in winter, up on the NW Frontier). We would be wearing khaki cellular (much lighter and cooler than 'drill') open shirt or bush jacket. Nothing underneath. Shorts much cooler than trousers. (Note bomb doors partly open, to relieve hydraulic pressure in system after shutdown, we did the same).

Danny.

[MPN11]

(Nothing underneath. Shorts much cooler than trousers. Note bomb doors partly open, to relieve hydraulic pressure in system after shutdown, we did the same).At first glance I thought the parenthesis related to the shorts with nothing underneath ;)

[NigG]

An unfurled Union Flag (surely not !

Maybe not. MPN11 is clearly a man of impeccable taste. In fact it's interesting to compare the photo of Air Marshal Sir Arthur Tedder's desk with his. I think Sir Arthur would have been (just a smidgen) envious! The map of Africa, however, is a good touch. A man who decides the fate of continents! (And indeed he did... thanks to Allied air power making things impossible for Rommel.)

[NigG]

At first glance I thought the parenthesis related to the shorts with nothing underneath ;)

...Chuckle!

[NigG]

Skipper (on left) recalls Jon's "Two Types" (see - hopefully - sketch above). The other two have KD tunics (not much work done on buttons !) with shirt, collar and tie (Nav ?) or open shirt (AG).

Interesting what you wrote about servicemen in the desert wearing an individualistic choice of clothing. When 84 Sqn arrived in Sumatra, having flown down from Egypt, they evidently maintained their 'battle casual' approach to turnout. It was also somewhat tatty, their having just completed a tour in decidedly basic, desert conditions.

Two weeks into their time at Sumatra, they had already flown on five operations against the Japanese. Facilities were inadequate, crews sleeping on the floor of a girls' school and meals had to be bought in town if a crew arrived back late. The Japs were flying daily fighter sweeps over the island to maintain their air superiority. Three Blenheims had been destroyed on the ground, making it necessary for the squadron to move to a secret, jungle airfield. One crew had been shot up by Zeros as they came in to land, another aircraft had been crashed after being taken without authorisation by a pilot from another squadron. Twenty-four aircraft had left Egypt, eighteen arrived in Sumatra. Now, only fourteen of these were operational. Everyone was under strain and was under warning that the Japanese might land on the island at any time.

That was the setting for the arrival of the AOC to deliver to the squadron a pep talk. He told everyone that they were there to fight and there was no question of evacuation. Among other things, he told them that they were a scruffy bunch and their failure to polish their shoes was an indicator of poor morale.

The response from the squadron wasn't exactly positive... the AOC wouldn't be looking quite so well turned-out if he had to do what they were doing. He also was clearly overlooking the fact that he was addressing hardened men with a good deal of operational experience... some had been operating in Greece and Iraq, as well as in the Western Desert. It was generally noted that the AOC's address did little to raise morale, at what was patently a very difficult time.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture445-84-sqn-blenheim-mk-iv.jpg

Above: an 84 Squadron Blenheim Mk IV

[Tankertrashnav]

Danny - many years ago when I was dealing in militaria I acquired a plaster figurine of the Two Types. Its about 8" high and the chaps are dressed as shown in your cartoon. Since then I have picked up a wartime book of their cartoons depicting their exploits in North Africa and their subsequent lesser known experiences when they move on to Italy. The figurine lives on a shelf in the room where I keep the rest of my military junk, photos etc.

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#283),
...At first glance I thought the parenthesis related to the shorts with nothing underneath...
It did. No underwear worn in India/Burma. Not necessary, and would only give you dhobi rash anyway. Not recommended.

[NigG]

Danny

Shorts without underwear? I also tried that when travelling in India, back in the 1980s. Much cooler, for sure, but in other respects it had its drawbacks.

I remember being sat on bus and having a delightful young woman take the seat beside me. Indian women, of course, are very good looking (or they were in those days when invariably they were lithe and fine-featured). Naturally, I glanced sideways to discreetly take-in her appearance. But, on doing so, I was rather taken aback to notice that the direction of her gaze was both downwards and diagonal. I followed the trajectory and there, to my acute embarrassment, I found that my rather too short shorts had an escapee... or rather several. From that day on I returned, greatly abashed, to more conventional dress.

Of course in your day, shorts went right down the thigh. I guess that only the most remarkably well-endowed could have had an accident such as I had. :ugh:

[Danny42C]

NigG
...on bus and having a delightful young woman take the seat beside me... No bus for us - and as for the village women - not in your worst nightmares !
...in your day, shorts went right down the thigh...
They did when they came out of Stores - but that was soon remedied. "Betty Grable" (you won't remember) shorts were the order of the day. Your Dad would have his tailored (about a rupee for the cloth to be made up into a pair of shorts to measure) by the dherzi in the local bazaar.

I do not suppose your fellow passenger was unduly perturbed. The lingam is a revered Hindu symbol and temple carvings make it abundantly clear.

Danny.

[NigG]

Danny

I was just returning to edit my previous post, thinking it was just a bit too 'marginal'! But, as you point out, there's nothing prudish about Hinduism and the lingum (the phallic symbol that represents the god Shiva), nor indeed the female yoni, nor the (jaw-dropping) carvings on the temples at Khajuraho. However, I rather doubt that my little indiscretion inspired a religious moment for my seating companion! :rolleyes:

[Danny42C]

NigG,
Like you, I feel I was a bit (in my case) too "PR" over the "no bus".

Let's not be mealy-mouthed:

In my day no Sahib or Memsahib would be seen dead in a bus - except when it was the only transport available (as in my ride into the mountains from 'Pindi to Srinagar for a spot of ski-ing in Kashmir).

A Sahib would be in a (man powered) Rickshaw, or a Tonga, or a taxi (in Calcutta, always an open bodied American tourer of the thirties, driven by a homicidal Sikh).

Or, of course, on a horse !

Danny.

[Danny42C]

pzu (#274),
....is it a Bristol Bombay?...
Don't know the type, but looking at the Wiki picture, could very well have been that. What at first appears as a twin tail is another aircraft behind. And it seems it was used extensively in M.E. Only 51 built, so a rara avis indeed.

Also worthy of note is Arthur "doing his dhobi!". No laundry available, so it was "every man for himself". Clearly little water would be available for the job, and you had to do your best with it. I like the jury-rigged clothesline behind ! (one thing, it wouldn't take long to dry).

At Worli, water very short. I developed a technique for having a bath out of a pint tin mug. No idea how I did it now !

Danny.

[eko4me]

having a bath out of a pint tin mug

Reminds me of The Goons...

"Can you swim in army boots?"
"No. There's not enough room!"

[Danny42C]

NigG (#286),

Very nice shot of the Blenheim IV. I always thought that the longer nose made it a more handsome aircraft than the rather snub-nosed Mk.Is (IMHO the same was true of the Griffon Spits: the longer nose gave them a more "well balanced" and elegant appearance than the Merlin Marks).

110 (Hyderabad) Squadron had flown the IVs on Channel shipping sweeps in '41/'42, and taken a fair old beating. It meant that India was a rest-cure for them, but the re-equip with Vengeance meant that half their navs/AGs were out of a job. I got a Wop/Ag, Keith Stewart-Mobsby, as my "crew" in a Vengeance, "Stew" and I stayed together till the VVs were pulled off 'ops' in summer '44: we parted, but met again when he joined me as my "adjutant" in Cannanore the following year - but only for a few weeks, then he went home "tour-ex". :{

The Squadron had flown out to India in a body with their Blenheims in mid '42, then the Mk.IVs were sent back to the M.E., flown by nearly all their junior pilots, with one or two navs needed for the journey. The rump of the Squadron left in India then needed an infusion of fresh pilot blood. Lo: their prayers were answered when a 30-strong mob of young hopefuls straight from UK Spitfire and Hurricane OTUs turned up in Bombay, thirsting to fly the waiting Spitfires which were to fight the "Battle of India" and gain them undying fame. :ok:

Only one fly in the ointment (I was going to say "[Gibson's dog] in the woodpile", but you can't say that any more, can you ?) There were no Spitfires waiting for them: there were no Spitfires at all out there. It had all been a Big Con (sound familiar ?) But never fear, lads , we have plenty of bright new Vultee Vengeances for you to fly. :eek: What more do you want - jam on it ?

The 30 of us were shared out among the four old Blenheim outfits, we made the best of it, and the rest you know.

Press on regardless.

Danny.

We each had to fight the war we were given - not the one we might have expected !

[MPN11]

Danny/pzu ... Bristol Bombay gets my vote. No. 216 [my wife's squadron in more modern years] were very busy in the Middle East 40-42, including Sicily and Italy. Subsequently Hudsons and Lodestars.

[NigG]

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture446-626px-aircraft-royal-air-force-1939-1945-bristol-type-130-bombay-ch2936-1.jpg

The aircraft (in the background on page 14) would appear to be a Bombay (above). I did wonder if it could have been a Free French aircraft, because while 84 were at Landing Ground 75, there was an accident (on a windless day) when three Blenheims of 45 Sqn took off at the same time as three Free French aircraft were taking off from the opposite end of the runway. Two of them collided and burned, but one stalled and crashed. I thought the latter could have been the aircraft in question. I also checked Italian aircraft on Wiki, but while there were at least five twin-engine types that had a twin tail stabiliser, they don't fit the appearance as well as a Bombay. Likewise for Free French. As MPN11 says, Bombays were being flown by 216 Sqn, as transport aircraft, in the area at that time.

Pity... I rather liked the idea of that aircraft belonging to the opposition. (Free French would have been not far behind :))

[Danny42C]

NigG
...when three Blenheims of 45 Sqn took off at the same time as three Free French aircraft were taking off from the opposite end of the runway....
Shows what the Twin Winged Lords of the Air can do without a nice, kind Air Traffic Controller to look after them !

[Danny42C]

NigG (your #286),
...That was the setting for the arrival of the AOC to deliver to the squadron a pep talk...
"Came there a certain Lord, neat and trimly dres't" - (Harry Hotspur, just come from battle "all smarting, my wounds being cold", required by this "Staff Officer" to hand over his prisoners) - "answered him roundly, I know not what."

But we know, don't we !

[Shakespeare, "Henry IV, Part 1"] Harry, of course, is the future Henry V of Agincourt (and I think Harry - or his spirit - may be alive today, even if his future must be different). :ok:

Danny.

[olympus]

There are a number of 'Two Types' cartoons in 'Strafer Desert General' (ISBN 9781781590904) a biography of Lt Gen William Gott who was targeted and killed by the Luftwaffe whilst en route to Cairo in a Bristol Bombay in August 1942.

Highly recommend the book (by Brig Norman Nash) about a man who might have achieved greatness in the Western Desert.

[Danny42C]

NigG (#297),
...Pity... I rather liked the idea of that aircraft belonging to the opposition. (Free French would have been not far behind )...
Well Churchill did say: "The heaviest Cross he had to bear during the war was the Cross of Lorraine !" But generally they were on our side, (but a bit miffed over Oran).

Danny

[NigG]

Danny

Regarding 'conduct unbecoming of a Sahib' during your time in India when it was still part of the Empire, there was still some vestiges of the 'old order' when I spent time there in the 1980s. I recall stopping for the night in a mountain village, when doing a multi-day hike. I was in a hut, surrounded by a good many local people, all interested to see this 'Britisher'. There were no seats to hand so I joined everyone else on the floor. There was an immediate murmur from my audience and quickly a seat materialised. Happy to be treated no better than anyone else, I declined to use it, until it was pointed out to me that it was unthinkable that I should sit on the floor, and must, as befitted me, make use of it. Later, at a Hill Station, I commissioned a local craftsman to make me a wood-carving knife to my own specification. This chap, whose father had been a servant for one of the British families in the old days, insisted on calling me 'Master'... 'yes Master, but what is the purpose of this knife?' I was quite shocked to be called as much, as it sounded far too subservient, as if we were living in Victorian times. But of course it was a 'master and servant' relationship to this man, and he was only showing me respect, as his father might have done.

My mother recalls the use of Tongas: horse-drawn, two wheeled carriages, with a canopy over the top. She took many such taxis with my father. At Quetta in 1942, she was 19 and not so long out of school. She recalled that the horses were very prone to 'backfire', and being young and innocent, absolutely didn't know where to look, as she sat opposite my father! :O

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture450-doris-wife-1942.jpg

[Wander00]

At several of the commemorations we attend in France there is a Porte Drapeur (the guys who carry the branch banners for ex-service organisations) who wears a cap with the tally "Mers el Kebir", where we sank a number of French ships and caused many casualties. He still talks to us

[Danny42C]

NigG (#302),

Your Post absolutely bristles with points which ring bells with me, and which will have to be taken up. Will try to deal with them in order. To begin with:
...there was still some vestiges of the 'old order' when I spent time there in the 1980s...
This would be forty years after Independence, and only the older generation would have fading memories of the Raj. I never saw India again after leaving in early 1946, but my old friend from 20 Squadron, Flt Lt Niel (sic) Ratan Ker, went back several times; on the last occasion, accompanied by his extended family, to return to Bangalore with his wife's ashes for a memorial service for her at the Garrison church (where they had been married at the war's end), and then to scatter her ashes on the church garden. He died the following year, some four years ago.

He said that it was not uncommon to hear: "I wish the British would come back !" This was not out of politeness to a former Sahib (an Anglo-Indian born there, he was as brown as they were, and Hindi would have been his mother tongue). It was sincere.
...insisted on calling me 'Master'...
Never heard of that '42-'46. Always "Sahib" and "Memsahib". Where was your "mountain village" ?

It was true that we were the "Masters" there (and had been for two hundred years), first under royal charter as the East India Company ("John Company") and then, after the 1857 Mutiny, effectively "nationalised" by the British government until Independence 90 years later. But it was not a "Master" and "Slave" relationship, there was genuine respect (and even affection) on both sides. 'Democracy' was a concept unknown to them, whose time had not yet come. They had always had "Masters" of one kind or another, the Raj was as good as any - and better than most !

As you say, it was not servility but respect to use the word. (On retiring from the RAF, I joined H.M.Customs & Excise. From sheer force of habit, I always addressed my line managers ["Surveyors" in Customs parlance] as "Sir" [no Ma'ams in my time] All ex-servicemen, they accepted it without comment).

Every European was a "Master" by virtue of the colour of his skin, and knew he was out there to rule. Rule kindly if you can, rule harshly if you must - but always rule. We were not alone - the Dutch, Danes, French and Portugese had each had a share of the cake before we eased them out (not always gently, I'm afraid).

It is one of the great paradoxes of history that the British, who were not noticably good at ruling themselves (our story is one long bloody catalogue of civil and external wars, cruelty and treachery, since the Romans took 400 years to lick us into some sort of shape), should prove so remarkably successful in ruling other peoples.

More in next Post.

Danny.

[pulse1]

...there was still some vestiges of the 'old order' when I spent time there in the 1980s...

In 1979 I spent a month in Chennai (it was Madras at the time) commissioning a factory. The security guard at the door was dressed in a pseudo Indian Army uniform and gave me and my UK team a cracking salute every morning. He didn't seem to do it to any of the local people, not even to the Indian CEO.

[OffshoreSLF]

Danny,
"He said that it was not uncommon to hear: "I wish the British would come back !" This was not out of politeness to a former Sahib (an Anglo-Indian born there, he was as brown as they were, and Hindi would have been his mother tongue). It was sincere."

I spent a few years in the Merchant Navy in the late '60's, early 70's. About 50% of the company ships were Indian crew. This started during WW2 when crews were in short supply, and it carried on into the late 70's.

I heard the same many times from some of the older crew members. I remember in particular one old fireman/greaser who used to say quite often, "British Raj good"

I always got on well with most of them, but I wish I'd tried harder to learn more Hindi. I picked up a few words, most of which I've forgot in the last 40 years.

Jim (One time Battysahib)

[NigG]

... Interesting comments. On the topic of India, I've just lost my, almost completed, hour's worth of key boarding! But it's probably just as well, as it outlined Indian corruption; the thing that many regret about the country since the British left. Also how the reputation of the Britsh Raj has been trashed by the movie industry in Bollywood. But it's probably better to focus on the things that bond our two countries, not least the remarkable contribution that India made in both world wars. The Indian Army formed the bulk of General Slim's 14th Army, that retook Burma. The photo below is of Sikh troops taking part in Operation 'Crusader', which Arthur supported as a squadron pilot, when 84 was in the Western Desert.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture452-626px-operation-crusader.jpg

Danny, I'm not sure where I was addressed as 'Master'. Most likely at Ooty Hill Station. But it happened to me only once.

[NigG]

AH! I haven't lost my post!...

Interesting that others have encountered instances of approval for British rule in India. I recall talking to a very old gentleman out there who had been a government clerk in the days of the Brits. I asked him if he thought times were better then, and he said he thought as much.

As I understand it, corruption is the thing that frustrates people most about modern India. A Nepalese chap told be about his experience when he went over the border to India to learn how to drive a bus. At the training school he noticed that a fellow student was getting the bulk of the training time with the instructor, while he would get just a couple of minutes here and there. He asked the student why he was getting preferential treatment. The student explained that if you want to get proper training, you have to pay baksheesh... that is, pay the instructor a suitable 'tip'. He did so and thereafter he had no problems. No problems, that is, until after he qualified. One day he was out driving his bus full of passengers when, by mistake, he ran over an old woman and killed her. His colleagues told him he'd better scarper back to Nepal, and thus his driving career came to a sudden close. Mind you, there have been cases of families pushing an elderly relative in front of a passing bus, in order to claim damages from the bus company. :uhoh:

India's a chaotic place that somehow just about works! That's something you learn pretty quickly if you travel out there, independently. I might add, that nostalgia for the Brits vanished by the late-eighties. I recall going to see Attenborough's film 'Ghandi' in Bombay. The intermission was called immediately after the sequence showing the Amritsar Massacre. I had the doubtful pleasure of having countless eyes, bulging with indignation, leveled at me as people filed out to buy their sodas and popcorn. Since then, there have been countless Bollywood movies featuring the British Raj. They all portray the Brits as having been corrupt and shifty double-dealers. But then, that's the values of modern India for you. :rolleyes:

(Call me 'jaundiced', but I did spend the equivalent of a year travelling around the place. There are many amazing and delightful things to see and experience in India too, I should add.)

[Fareastdriver]

pay the instructor a suitable 'tip'. Driving test.
pushing an elderly relative in front of a passing bus Or shiny BMW.

Sounds awfully familiar.

[Danny42C]

NigG (continuing commentary on your #302),

What a charming picture ! And how clever of the photographer - to use the "Bombay Bowler"; as a frame in that imaginative way ! Now, you say this is of your Mother in Quetta in 1942. I only got there in summer 1944, but alas - she would have gone to the altar with some lucky dashing subaltern (or the like) long before. Some people have all the luck !

Wildly guessing now, as you do not give your age on PPRuNe (nor do you need to, tho' I've always thought it should be mandatory - it enables the rest of us to put you in the correct time frame). But am I getting warm ?

To our Miss-Sahib: she is a Corporal in the WACS (Women's Auxiliary Corps). I knew of their existence, but never met any. They were to be found only in large cities (Calcutta - Delhi - Bombay), and raised by local recruitment. They wore a KD uniform similar to the US equivalent.

Wiki knows about them:
...a large part of the corps was formed from the Anglo–Asian community...
This ties in with what I know of the Calcutta ones. The young Anglo-Indian girls (and they rank among the most beautiful on earth - but it doesn't last) were extensively employed as clerks, typists and secretaries in the big business houses. But no matter how good and how attractive she might be, the bachelor Sahib who employed her would never ask her out to dinner - that was out of the question !

Their dearest wish was to marry an Englishman, they would then have British nationality and at one bound be free from the no-man's land into which the Raj (which had created them) now condemned them. (It was said: "God made the Indian, the British Tommy made the Anglo-Indian".

For these, the WACs were a heaven-sent opportunity, and they flocked to it. Now the chances of catching a lonely British soldier (or - dare they even hope ? - a British Officer) were immensely improved: and not a few were successful.

For that reason, a "Miss-Sahib" would rarely join the Corps (when her own social circle offered so much more scope). A Corporal ! - would the Club even let her in ? Perhaps in Quetta, up on the Frontier, there were few Anglo-Indians and the taboo was relaxed. Did they have officers ? - with pips on her shoulders, that would be perfectly all right, of course !

As to the uniform, looks like a very wide band over her left shoulder (a sash ?)- but what is that thing (much narrower, with three holes) on her right (I'm completely foxed).

Now for tongas, I learn from Wiki that they come in all shapes and sizes, and in some types illustrated, she could well have been sitting opposite her father. All tongas have only two wheels, and in the Calcutta version I knew best, the driver sat in front, and (up to two) passengers in the back facing the rear. In all cases, it was vital not to be too far out of balance. For if too tail heavy (say a trunk in the rear), the shafts could pick the pony up off the ground !

Stowed somewhere was the pony's fodder, usually green grasses of some sort. You could follow a pony around by the trail of green offerings ! Flatulent ponies would be a common enough occurence, I'm surprised that they embarrassed even a Miss-Sahib.

We did not use them much in Calcutta, most of the spots we would want to reach from the "Grand" were in rickshaw reach, and places further out (say the Victoria Memorial) were taxi jobs. In flat cities like central Calcutta, the tongas were one horse, in more hilly places like Hill Stations, two-pony tongas were necessary. Look up Rudyard Kipling: "As the Bell Clinks", for one such in Simla (not Shimla !)

Danny.

PS: If you want an unusual tale of Old India try:

"On Military Aviation", click on " Search this Forum" for "Military Life on the Malabar Coast of India in WWII". From the list of "Search Results", select the Thread of that name. Scroll down to my (Page 2 of the Thread, #25). The story is on that and following Posts.

D.

[NigG]

Danny

Your reminiscences are a delight! :ok: I read your 'Military life on the Malabar coast of India in WWII' (Search box top right of this Forum... p2, post 25 on) in which you treat us to an evocative insight into your wartime love life! My only quibble is the absence of a further post from you... you can't leave us hanging! How did you handle it? What did she say to you? How did you get-on thereon? And... where is the picture of you... obviously quite handsome or this beauty wouldn't have gone for you? (I'm sure that, even if you don't have a scanner, your daughter will oblige (?)... I'd welcome shots of you (and the two squadrons) to enhance your tales!)

Re my mother... Yes she was in the Womens' Auxiliary Corps India (WACI). You recall that she was the daughter of someone serving in the Indian Army Ordnance Corps, having transferred from the Royal Field Artillery in the 1920s. The WACI were like the ATS back in the UK, doing office work and running canteens etc (although, unlike the ATS didn't man searchlights or AA guns). In fact if you had been to Ranchi, you might have encountered my mother in the Officers' shop, which she ran. She was also at Quetta (where the photo was taken) doing clerical work while living with the family. She had recently left school, which was at Ooty Hill Station. She got commissioned and later was one of the first to go through the WACI Staff College at Quetta, after which she was a Captain and a PA to General in Delhi.

I asked her about Anglo Indians being in the WACI and she was puzzled. She said she recalls only one, otherwise the women were all British colonialists. Yes, I understand there was a stigma against the (mixed-race) Anglo Indians, and certainly officers would be very discreet if they had one such as a girlfriend. Different for the ORs, some of whom did marry and, no doubt, had rather better-looking children than they otherwise might expect to have had. When I see my mother next, I'll ask her about what she was wearing in the photo, and show her your post. The things on her shoulders are surely epaulet sleeves, probably saying 'WACI'.

Yes, she was a good-looker, and my father, having a lifetime affinity to such women, grabbed her when 84 were at Quetta, waiting for the first Vengeances to arrive from America. He did get engaged to her in 1944, after the squadron had been withdrawn from the Burma Front. But they didn't marry until 1948, when my father felt a bit more secure about his future, having gained a permanent commission in the RAF (after being RAFVR). By then he had also been to RAF Staff College, complete with promotion to substantive Sqn Ldr. The delay to the marriage didn't go down too well, of course; my mother taking a job as an air stewardess with British European Airways, to induce a 'concentration of mind' on my father's part! I think part of the final deal was that she had to give up smoking, but it all came together in the end! :D

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture457-engaged-1944.jpg

Ah... yes I'm 62. I noticed I didn't have an age credited to me, but could find no way to add one. I would add a mugshot too, but as someone once observed, having met me only after hearing my voice on the phone... I don't look as polished as I sound! Too many years being 'arty' and 'outdoor' bohemian! :rolleyes:

[Danny42C]

NigG (#311),
...And... where is the picture of you... obviously quite handsome or this beauty wouldn't have gone for you? (I'm sure that, even if you don't have a scanner, your daughter will oblige (?)...
The picture is only to be found in the "Fly Past" magazine for September, Page 28. The beauty had a hidden agenda - did you read the story through to the bitter (?) end ? Handsome is as handsome does !

Have a scanner/copier/printer, but daughter no better at it than I.

Thank you for the opening compliments ! Will return to your post tomorrow, knackered now.

Danny.

[Danny42C]

NigG,

Must rescue this Thread from the Slough of Despond (aka Page 2 of "Military Aviation").

First let's turn to your:
... My only quibble is the absence of a further post from you... you can't leave us hanging...
The tale of my ill-fated amour continues to #44 or so, and the "wash-up" goes on to the end at #58 on Page 3.

Now to your:
... In fact if you had been to Ranchi, you might have encountered my mother in the Officers' shop, which she ran...
Ah, the Officers' Shops ! I recall that you could get Elgin Mills (Ahmedabad ?) khaki drill, infinitely better than the Stores issue stuff, (54in?) wide for a rupee or two a yard (was it - your Mother would remember), and cellular cloth for shirts and bush jackets. Must've bought yards and yards of the stuffs. Local dherzi would make it up for you into slacks, shirts and bush jackets for a couple of "chips". One mistake: at the end had no greatcoat, the Officers' Shop (in Bangalore or Cochin) had the optional blue serge cloth - but no Crombie. Bought a length of the serge, gave it to dherzi with a pukka greatcoat for him to get the idea. Made a woeful mess of the job. I think I gave it to my bearer when I left.

Now there is much more gold to be mined in your Post, and will return to it, but let me turn to your Father's Memsahib. She was in India at the times of my "ill-fated Amour", and would have been keenly aware of the major scandals going on. Please show her my tale - she may very well have heard of it, as the earlier part (up to the divorce) was the talking point of the season in S.India, and you mention that she was in Ooty for a while; perhaps she could add to it. If you wish, I could PM you with the real names.

Danny.

[MPN11]

Bought a length of the serge, gave it to dherzi with a pukka greatcoat for him to get the idea. Made a woeful mess of the job. I think I gave it to my bearer when I left.I made a similar type of mistake, ordering a sheepskin coat by post from Hong Kong. It fitted where it touched. I was quite glad when it was stolen from a restaurant in London a couple of years later.

[Fantome]

Flatulent ponies would be a common enough occurence, I'm surprised that they embarrassed even a Miss-Sahib.

Dear old dad loved and laughed at the one about the naive young school teacher just out of college down the big smoke. Her first posting was to
Bullamakanka , a tiny town in the western district. She was met at the station by the mayor , a big man with an enormous beer-gut and manner to match. He chucked her port in the tray of the sulky, said to her hop in love, then set the transport in motion with a flick of the whip.
She had never been as close to horse or pony in her life. Let alone the hind quarters. They had not gone far when the pony lifted his tale and gave out with a mightly blast . 'Ahh .. . you dirty rotten bastard' quoth he.
Affronted young woman, shocked to the core . . . by his language . .. says 'That is the rudest thing I have ever heard in my life!' 'Dead right there love . . . I'll just pull up for a moment. Bastard needs a good kick in the guts.'

what some people of a certain vintage classify as 'A Rotary Joke'.
and a gross digression from matters in hand, far more factual and far
more redolent of service in climes where it was said it "Ain't half hot mum."

[Stanwell]

I got a chuckle out of that post.
For those not familiar with carriage horses, there are times when the driver really does have to pull over and 'relieve it of its wind'.

[NigG]

Danny

I'm now at my mother's and have read through with her our various posts concerning her and the Womens' Auxiliary Corps India (WACI). She confirms that they were epaulet sleeves in the photo, with 'WACI' embroidered on them. She points out that she was in fact a Sergeant, not a Corporal, at the time (her upper sleeve must have been folded, in the photo). So this dates the picture to when she had just joined the organisation. She was commissioned soon after, and finished as a Captain by the end of the War. Again, she doesn't recognise your claim that the WACI were full of Anglo Indians... She knew only one such person. Apparently I, myself, was wrong to write that they ran canteens. She said they either did clerical/office work or they ran shops, or sometimes drove transport. Also all of the work was Forces-related, having nothing to do with private businesses.

Now you have to brace yourself for a dressing-down! She didn't like your reference to her as a 'Miss-Sahib' and points out that she was not Anglo Indian! (I pointed out to her that this was a simple mistake, based on her good looks and the assumption that she had two tapes on her arm. But, alas, this wasn't accepted!) Further, that she has no knowledge of the scandal concerning your female friend and has no interest, whatsoever, in learning about it! Nor does she concur with your assumption that she would have been 'keenly aware of all the major scandals that were going on'.

Are you feeling suitably contrite?!! I am also 'in the dog house' for mentioning matters concerning her marriage, reasonably enough perhaps, as it's a personal matter. (But what is a chap to do, when striving to write entertaining posts?) However, on the upside, she was amused by your little saga with the Indian tailor who made a hash of your greatcoat, and its eventual fate when you left India. Also she was amused by the bit about you being in Quetta too late to have encountered her, and how others have all the luck!

Anyway, I think you might agree, that you hit the nail on the head, when making reference to my father's 'Memsahib'! But then, she was born and bred in India and is a product of the, so called, 'Raj'. I rather think I was imprudent to have shown her what we wrote! But there we are. Head above the parapet, and all that. :ouch:

[Danny42C]

NigG,

Far be it from me to ruffle the feathers of a true Memsahib (and a Daughter of the Raj to boot !) - "By gad, Sir, fella' should be horsewhipped" - and I most humbly apologise for any inadvertent offence I may have given.

But I was never aware that "Miss-Sahib" had the faintest implication of an Anglo-Indian backgroud. Are you sure ? - I thought it was just as deferential and acceptable as: "Burra-Sahib, Chota-Sahib, Sahib, MemSahib and (!) Miss-Sahib". Now I know better and will not make the same mistake again. Just shows, the R.A.F. may have made me an Officer - but hardly a complete Gentleman !

EDIT::
Retraction: Heaven fofend that a nicely brought up young lady should find vicarious pleasure in juicy accounts of the peccadillos of her less virtuous sisters !!

I now see that the sleeve is neatly rolled up. and it obscures the bottom stripe. Sorry, Sergeant ! (I, too was a Sergeant [-Pilot] for some time before my Commission came through), But I am still foxed by the sash (?) and the strange thing (right shoulder) with the three eyelets. What could they possibly have been for ?.

I would hazard a guess that there was only a small Anglo-Indian community at Quetta - but a very big one in Calcutta, where the girls were extensively employed as clerks, typists and secretaries, for whom WAC service would be an obvious attraction. All I can say, is that it was like that in my day.

As for Quetta, my story starts on p.150 on "Pilot's Brevet" (# 2993), and your Mother may find it entertaining, as it tells of a time (summer - autumn 1944) when you say she was also there.

Lovely photo of the happy couple - note your Father's slicked-back hair. On wedding photo 1955, mine is exactly the same - "the last of the Brylcreem Boys !"

Must now prepare my daily stint on "Fly Past", so will return later ("Tora Peachi, MemSahib" !)

Danny.

[NigG]

Danny

I knew you'd do that... assume all blame and apologise sincerely! But then you are, as all would acknowledge, a true gentleman and a 'knight gallante'. In fact many get to feel the lash of my mother's tongue from time to time, but to her credit, she blows her top, then half an hour later she's right back to being her usual self, as if nothing had ever happened! (I'll try your Quetta tale on her after a suitable interval!)

To move on, a couple of shots from 84 Squadron in North Africa. Pilot: Flt Lt John Wyllie and his Nav/Bomb Aimer. They are, of course, in a Blenheim MkIV. In a Squadron team photo, four of the aircrew sport beards, which is interesting. But then, there was a serious lack of water when operating from forward Landing Grounds. This was because all the wells had been either contaminated or destroyed by the treating enemy. The ration was 2 pts (1 litre) per day and it was both brackish and heavily chlorinated, making the tea taste foul. The Squadron, however, was clear about genuine necessities. It had a couple of 3-tonners, plying between the main forward supply depot and the operational base, delivering (among other items) a ready supply of bottled liquids. While these were excellent for morale when off duty, none of course, were suitable for shaving stubble.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture458-flt-lt-john-wyllie-84-sqn.jpg

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture459-nav-bomb-aimer-blenheim-iv-84-sqn.jpg

The bearded, Wyllie later did sterling work with the Squadron after it moved to the Far East, including the destruction of a Japanese ship. A couple of months after this picture was taken, he was captured by the Japanese. However this was not before he tried to take-off as the Japanese attacked their airfield at Kalidjati, Java. Starting the engines, fire from a Japanese tank came in, hitting the windscreen and persuading him and the crew to abandon the attempt. He then Jumped into a car driven by the Squadron CO, and, everyone firing Tommy-guns from the windows, sped off the airfield under the noses of the Japanese soldiery. Unfortunately he was taken prisoner before he could effect an escape from the island, and spent the rest of the war interred in Singapore.

[MPN11]

So ... sergeants got shaving water, but officers didn't? ;)

[NigG]

So ... sergeants got shaving water, but officers didn't? ;)
MPN11

Ha! Clever observation...however! Undoubtedly the same ration of water for Sergeants and Officers, but different priorities. Unlike Sergeants, the Officers had their G&T glasses to wash up. :cool:

[Danny42C]

Recalls story of the lone Guardsman picked up somewhere in Western Desert. "Wa'er wa'er" ! he croaked.

So they gave him some water - and he started to Blanco his webbing !....

[Stanwell]

" ... started to blanco his webbing".
Those not familiar with the routine should be aware that dry-polishing was a hanging offence.

[Danny42C]

NigG
...spent the rest of the war interred in Singapore....
So they exhumed him on VJ Day ?........(one hopes !)
Someone should compose an Anthology of Unfortunate Typos !

While, I'm on, might not be a good idea to allow honoured Mater unfettered access to the final Posts in "Malabar Coast", as I am (uncharacteristically) uncomplimentary about the Daughers of the Raj, saying "...spoilt rotten. It was not their fault, but that of the system which made them so..."

Might not go down too well !

Danny.

[Wander00]

Danny - it is a mistake frequently made - I have even heard the malapropism on the BBC

[NigG]

I think Flt Lt Wyllie was both 'interned' and 'interred' in Singapore. Let's face it, he was in a 'mire'.

The Blanco quip was a good'un, Danny! :) Nice workout for the laugh muscles. I remember Blanco from the school Cadet Force. A cake of green, that had to be swirled by a wet brush and then transferred onto one's (19)47-pattern webbing belt or gaiters, there to dry. The limitless joys of yester-year's bull****!

Yes, Danny. You could be right about Mother not seeing your posted 'assessment of Memsahibs'. One mother-induced heart-seizure in a month is enough. Two, and my online presence may fall permanently and inexplicably silent.

(I know... 'if only')

[NigG]

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture325-arthur-left-his-jeep.jpg

Danny, I recall you saying Arthur (left) was lucky to get his own jeep. I daresay I was wrong and it was just one from the motor pool at Kumbhirgram. He did, however, have the occasion to use one 'in anger'. He wrote:

'Late one evening, during the Burma campaign, I was sitting in my office, finishing administrative chores, when the phone rang. It was the CO of the local RAF MFH (Mobile Field Hospital) who asked if I could help out. He'd had to send one of his Princess Mary's Nursing Service Sisters out to a tea planter's home to help manage a difficult birth. His staff were flat out, dealing with casualties, and he needed her back on duty. Could I get someone to pick her up? I promised to do what I could and phoned the MT Section. No reply. (The duty driver had, in fact, gone to collect his late supper.)

It was now past midnight, everyone was in bed, and I had been up since 0415... indeed I had flown two operations that day. Worse, there was another op. pending, scheduled for dawn take-off. Outside it was pouring torrentially, but the only option was to jump into the car outside and provide the taxi-service myself. I knew where the Planter's house was, having been there before. I duly arrived, car slewing through deep and sizable puddles, and the Sister jumped in. Because of the road conditions, I thought it better to try a different route back. One that should take me through the plantation and around the airfield perimeter. Five minutes later the car was well and truly embedded in thick, oozing mud. I'd driven straight into a rice paddy field! The wheels, of course, spun to no effect. I told the Sister to sit tight and I'd be back as soon as possible. There then followed a miserable and very wet walk back to camp, whereupon I picked up a jeep and returned to pick up Sister, who had been waiting anxiously for an hour.

By the time I crawled into bed, it was almost time to get up. Mercifully, the elements gave me a break and the morning's operation was cancelled due to the impossible conditions (though in the afternoon it cleared and we were able to get airborne).

After the war, I met the same Sister at the Burma Reunion, held in the Albert Hall. She touched me on the arm and proposed that I remove my shoes and socks. She wanted me to prove that, after that torrential night years before, I hadn't grown aquatic, webbed feet. I invited her to feel free, but of course, the occasion wouldn't allow.'

[Stanwell]

NigG,
I, too, as I'm sure quite a few others did, got a chuckle out of the 'Blanco' reference.
It was a hanging offence to dry-polish one's khaki webbing.
I mean, we can't have the enemy laughing at us, can we?

[NigG]

It was a hanging offence to dry-polish one's khaki webbing... can't have the enemy laughing at us...
'Dry-polish' meaning 'boot polish', Stanwell? :confused: We moved from using Blanco to boot black in the Cadet Force of the 1960s. But it looked quite neat.

[MPN11]

NigG ... depends on your outfit. My CCF used Green, until I moved to the RAF side, where we used Blue. Not everyone was LI ;)

[oxenos]

In my CCF (Army) days, ('57-'60) we used "Webbing renovator", which was like a khaki boot polish. Put on with a brush, polished with another brush, and then buffed with a soft cloth., With care a belt could be worn a couple of times, but then it would start to flake and had to be redone. Didn't use blanco until I joined the R.A.F. Blue for regular wear, white for ceremonial parades.

[Wander00]

ISTR webbing colour depended on parent unit. In my 5 years we changed 3 times, Middlesex Regt, 3/4 County of London Yeomanry then R Fusiliers

[Stanwell]

NigG,
'Dry polishing' one's webbing was simply a means of ensuring that its finish was a little more enduring.
After one had done the Blanco job, a clean boot-polish type brush was used to bring a smooth effect which didn't show wear marks - for a couple of days, at least.
It looked good and was very practical - but no, it wasn't what the foundations of the British Empire was built upon.
One had to go stand in the naughty corner when found out.

[Danny42C]

NigG (#327),

Nice pic of the Jeep - and the blokes look fine, too (your Dad's Driver, I suppose).
...I picked up a jeep and returned to pick up Sister, who had been waiting anxiously for an hour...
Should've taken the jeep in the first place, not the car. Marvellous little things. I've seen one haul a Vengeance (tail first) out of a soggy paddy-patch when nothing else could budge it.

Never had one of my own, but at Cannanore CDRE there was a RAF Liaison Officer, one Wing Commander Edmondes (the onlie begetter of the "Edmunds Trainer" [don't ask] Edmondes > Edmonds > Edmunds - geddit ?). Not my CO, as he was "outside the loop" and answerable only to AHQ, Delhi, where they fell over themselves to give CDRE (and, by extension, him) anything the heart desired. Well, I suppose CDRE had Porton Down behind them.

Nice chap: no end of help to me. Anyway, his heart desired a Jeep, and Lo - one appeared ! (the Colonel desired a nice Staff Car: top-of-range, brand-new, half-timbered, Canadian Ford V8 Estate delivered gift-wrapped. We'd like the loan of a P-47 Thunderbolt with a driver, and a Mosquito (ditto), plus servicing crew. Certainly sir, right away sir, would Sir like anything else ?

It was like having Aladdin's Lamp. There were limits. My heart desired an ASR launch to fish me (or someone else) out of the 'oggin' when a VV went off the end (40 foot cliff) of our runway. Paddling round in a pool of the Mustard gas we carried was not to be recommended. But the best I was offered was a surplus "Bomb Scow"; fortunately the war ended before that was delivered. No one ever had to swim for it, although I incautiously authorised the Wing Commander to have a go with the Thunderbolt, he shot off the end - and vanished ! Reappeared a second later with spray blowing off his wheels. Met him again in 1949, now a Sqn Ldr (Armaments) at Bomber Command. Nearly everyone who managed to stay in in '46 dropped a rank or two.

But I digress. I had the use of the Jeep. Often thought it would make a far better ATC runabout than our Landy, for you could just reach down and pick bits of metal and squashed hares off a runway, whereas in a Landy you have to get out and bend down. But the body is a sealed "bath", if the drain hole gets bunged-up with mud in a monsoon, you find it flooded a foot deep inside in the morning, as the canvas top is little use. Then you have to fish about with a bit of bamboo to find and unblock drain hole, all seats now soaking, muddy, cold and wet. There appears to be no limit to the number of chaps you can have in plus hanging onto a Jeep.

Think it was originally called a "Car, ¼ Ton, General Purpose" > "GP" > "Jeep".

Danny.

[MPN11]

When I was a teenager in Suburban Surrey, my best mate had one. Finished in a tasteful shade of olive drab and festooned with 'bull bars' and spare wheels/tyres [tires?] on the bonnet [hood?] and at the back, we rampaged around the neighbourhood enjoying the fresh air and exchanging approving looks with young ladies. I'm assuming they were interested in us, rather than the vehicle, although it was certainly eye-catching.

Sadly, and unsurprisingly given his driving style, my mate lost his licence within a few months of getting it, for a series of transgressions.

[NigG]

Ha! Didn't imagine there were so many ex-cadets! And now I can claim to be an authority on 'Webbing - belts and gaiters - procedures - for the cleaning of'! Pprune... the source of all knowledge, useful and otherwise!!

How weird, Stanwell, that 'dry polishing' was deemed to be unacceptable, presumably because it was a 'dodge' to having to do the prescribed blanco-ing every evening. It reminds me a little of the time, perhaps in about 1980, when I was rooting around on a disused RAF airfield (sadly I forget which one). One of the few remaining buildings was the Guardhouse. Of course, most of these remote ex-airfields have been largely turned-over to agriculture, and they're out of reach of those who might be inclined to vandalise or interfere with them.

Anyway, inside the Guardhouse were several items from when it was last used, which, judging by the flyer for the cinema, which featured 'The Man Who Never Was', must have been in the late 1950s or early 1960s. Also there, were a couple of Charge Sheets, identifying the miscreant and declaring his offence. One of them stayed in my memory. It was where a L/Cpl (The site must have been used by the Army before it closed), was charged with 'wearing weights'.

I couldn't imagine what this meant, so I later asked my father if he had any idea. He had no hesitation in explaining that this was the practice of wearing a string of lead weights in the bottom of the trousers, where they tucked into the gaiters. The effect of the weights was to pull the trousers tight from waist to ankle, thus showing the crease to advantage, there being no rucks along its length! :ooh:

Thank goodness the Armed Forces moved on from those days of 'bull'. But I guess that was Conscription for you... the point where 'Discipline' stepped-in to banish any possible moment of idleness.

(A little like Pprune, of course! :ok:)

[Danny42C]

MPN11,
...I'm assuming they were interested in us, rather than the vehicle, although it was certainly eye-catching...
Large assumption ! Girl friend du jour told me in early '50s they all lusted after "A red MG, with Leslie Phillips driving". My clapped-out Bond "Minicar" didn't cut the mustard, and she rubbed it in by telling me that one of the well-heeled young men-about-town had just taken her for a ride in his new XK120. Furiously jealous - but she then thanked me for being so ......Women !! :ugh:

Danny.

[KJ994]

A small and useless footnote for Danny and NigG, from a longtime devotee of this and the Brevet threads: the term Missy-Sahib was in use in Rangoon as late as 1978-79.
At least, it was still in use by my cookbearer, Samson, who had come from India to Burma in 1945 with a British Army Major, and who had later worked for a succession of British Defence Attaches until the DA post was chopped in 1978. (Which made it suddenly hard for a now civilian-staffed embassy to maintain channels to the military regime. But Whitehall knew that of course.)

Samson, a slight, wiry but intensely loyal fellow from somewhere around Darjeeling, used the term whenever he spoke to any unmarried female European visitor to my house under the age of about 25. And occasionally a married one if he was in doubt. Anglo Indian or Anglo Burmese young women were not so honoured!

[NigG]

NigG (#327)
Nearly everyone who managed to stay in in '46 dropped a rank or two.
Danny.

Ah! Bless you Danny. I'm currently reading and annotating a sheaf of letters sent to Arthur between 1944 and '47. They make interesting reading and give an intriguing insight into those days... of course, many of the writers were in the process of returning from the RAF to civilian life. My father, who had returned from India (just in time for VE Day) and was now commuting daily by train from his mother's house in North London to the Air Ministry, where he had a dull-ish admin job in postal services.

I think he was a bit depressed by his new circumstances, but this was, for a short while, exacerbated by being demoted from Acting Sqn Ldr back down to Flt Lt. Well, I was thinking 'Poor Dad... what's all this about... hardly an act of kindness'. But you've resolved the question... his demotion was common to many who stayed on in the RAF after the war.

There's one letter that stands out as being quite moving. I'll put it on screen as it gives an insight into some of the challenges of being on an operational squadron in the tropics during the war.

(I see, Danny, from KJ994, above, that you were correct about 'Miss Sahib' not implying 'Anglo Indian'. Though, maybe other stuff gave my mother reason for indignation (!) Best dropped, of course )

[Wander00]

KJ994 reinstated a couple of years ago by part time basis from DA Singapore, first incumbent was my OC PMS from Wyton in 92-93, and a scribbly to boot

[Danny42C]

NigG (#939),
... his demotion was common to many who stayed on in the RAF after the war
Not a "demotion", by any means. Acting rank is tied to the post, if that vanishes, or you hand over to someone else, so your rank vanishes with it. It happened to me when I left India.

As Chugalug put it at the time: "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away".

---------------

KJ994 (#338),

From Darjeeling.....Not a Gurkha, then, but close geographically and ethnically. Brave, trustworthy and loyal, the very best sort of bearer you could find. Far superior to the locals, I would've thought.

Thanks for your confirmation of the pure-white status of a "Miss-Sahib" in the days of the Raj. "Missy-Sahib" has a faint Chinese/Singaporean flavour (never been to either place, have I got the right idea ?

Danny.

[MPN11]

Acting rank can be a funny thing.

I came out high on a promotion list, and was slated for an acting rank appointment ... but for that you have to meet the Job Spec. So I didn't get the job. Two years later, I got substantive promotion ... and guess which appointment I got! :)

The guy I replaced had held the job in acting rank for 2 years (as he had met the job spec). We were both promoted substantive on the same list ;)

[KJ994]

Danny, your #341. Afraid I've no idea where Samson's Missy-Sahib variation crept in from, but he made it into a charming and certainly a respectful term of address.

I took him to the beach once, at Thandwe (Sandoway) in Arakan. Your territory, and not much changed since you were there I imagine. Samson had never seen the sea before. Lent him some bathers, a smallish wave rolls in and tumbles him over, he comes up spluttering but grinning. "Sah, this water is very strong!"

[Danny42C]

KJ944,

I believe the beaches of the Arakan, from Cox's Bazar * south, are the most beautiful in the world, and begging for development as tourist resorts (the Malabar beaches are pretty good too, but little known except Goa).

Note *: Who was Cox and why is his 'Bazar' remembered ? Nobody knew (then) - but Wiki does now:
...The modern Cox's Bazar derives its name from Captain Hiram Cox (died 1799), an officer of the British East India Company. Cox was appointed Superintendent of Palongkee outpost after Warren Hastings became Governor of Bengal...

Never saw the beaches (except from the air). Was in a Mobile Field Hospital there for a few weeks.

Danny42C.

[NigG]

KJ994 reinstated a couple of years ago by part time basis from DA Singapore, first incumbent was my OC PMS from Wyton in 92-93, and a scribbly to boot

I'm going to be taking this to Bletchley Park... a cypher, surely impenetrable to all but the RAF. Respectfully implore pity on me and my like! ;)

[NigG]

Danny and MPN11

Thanks for the clarification of Acting rank. :ok: That makes sense... Arthur's service record states 'relinquished Acting Sqn Ldr'... thus he surrendered it when he became 'supply DGO' at the Air Ministry; then two months later regained it on appointment as 'ADO'.

The fact that the appointment of Acting rank is contingent on meeting a job specification throws light on another 'mystery'. On being posted to 221 Group, Air Staff Plans, after Arthur left the command of 84 Sqn, he seems to have been tipped for promotion to Wg Cdr. In the event it didn't happen (much to the disgust of his colleagues back at 84). Probably he didn't meet the job spec and the Wg Cdr post went to someone else.

He stayed on at Air staff Plans for three months, involved in planning the relocating of RAF units as the Burma Front moved forward in the wake of the retreating Japanese. Still attached to 221 Group, he then got a rather pleasant job, using a Beechcraft 'Expiter' to transport senior staff to and from the Front. He called it 'my airliner'. Within two months he was designated to return to the UK, 'time lapsed', having spent four years overseas. Thus his little 'aerial holiday' drew to a close.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture467-arthur-s-beechcraft-expiter-221-gp-burma.jpg

Beechcraft 'Expeditor'(Thanks for the correction below, Danny!) Photo taken by Arthur with his Leica camera, generously presented to him when he left 84 Squadron, in 1944.

[Danny42C]

Beechcraft C-45 "Expeditor", I think he meant. Had a trip in one (Indian National Airways), Bombay - Delhi. Very nice little twin.

Danny.

[MPN11]

Photo taken by Arthur with his Leica camera, generously presented to him when he left 84 Squadron, in 1944.Nice gift. All I got on leaving Waddington was an Action Man doll wearing an exercise 'DS' armband! :)

[NigG]

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture313-sqn-ldr-arthur-gill-vultee-vengeance-1944-kumbhirgram-84-squadron-base-operations-support-burma-campaign.jpg
Above: Arthur at Kumbhirgram.

A letter to Arthur, 1944

This is one of the wartime letters that Arthur kept. I tend to think of those five months when 84 Squadron was in action over Burma, as being a great adventure. A mix of apprehension, excitement, camaraderie and professionalism. This letter shows that other things, too, could be going on.

Dated October 1944. From one of Arthur's Flight commanders. Address: Base Military Hospital, Bombay. This man had served in the Squadron, alongside Arthur, earlier in the Western Desert, then in Sumatra, in 1941-42. Like Arthur, he managed to escape from Sumatra when the Japs invaded and the Squadron was ultimately lost. He then re-joined 84 in India when it was about to be reformed under Arthur's command. Two months before this letter was written, 84 had withdrawn from Kumbhirgram, the airfield from which it conducted operations over Burma. It was currently stationed at Quetta (now in Pakisthan). Arthur had just left the Squadron, for a new, staff appointment at 221 Group..

Dear Arthur

Was so glad to hear of your appointment, congratulations, I wonder if you will like it as much as flying, I don’t think so, or do you?

Have been in hospital ever since my second day in Bombay, they proved Amoebic dysentery, and the treatment isn’t much to write home about, but I look forward to a brighter future. It nearly made me weep with self pity, when I realise now that I have had it for over three years and all the time I have put my looseness down to nervous reaction. The MO here says it’s no wonder I feel sick and weak.

Was more disappointed than sorry for myself that I cracked up at Kumbhirgram. I felt worse than ever after my leave, and was asked to join the Army. This was an impossible task, I could not have gone the first mile.

It was never easy to start the day with a false smile and pretend to be well, I had lost almost a stone in weight, and practically prayed that Group would move us before I had to give up. My days off were spent in bed or on my bed, trying to catch up on lost energy. I don’t know what I would have done without them.

I felt it very much too, because I knew you were getting disappointed and I had been more than proud of the work my flight were doing. I have never ‘turned in’ a job of any kind in my life, and to think one more week and I would have completed it with the others, makes me very bitter.

Although I am sure old doc wouldn’t admit it, I think he used my own suspicion of malaria as an excuse to get me into hospital, and having to see the psycho in Calcutta, made me wonder what the hell was going on. I told them they were barking up the wrong tree, and that something was pulling my health down, but they wouldn’t even listen to it.

The MO here assures me that things will be different when the amoeba is cleared away, and ‘my God’ I will be glad, as I was quite reconciled to accepting a discharge on arrival home, if they suggested it. But not now, it gives me a new hope of seeing this to the finish, I wouldn’t be proud to drop out at this stage - !

Doc also mentioned that nearly all the old hands have been, or will be posted in the near future. Hell!! What a mess –

Who is the new CO to be? I hope he keeps up the good name and the old Shaibah traditions, it would be a great pity to see it die out. [These were the, great fun, initiation ceremonies for new-comers to the squadron]

I saw Group Captain Whitley in Calcutta at 11 [----] when I was there. It was the day Blackie’s and Dick’s DFCs appeared in the paper. We had quite a long chat and he seemed to think you would get something in due course. I do hope he has the gen, the squadron did put up a good show of which you can justly be proud. Three years is a mighty long time [with a squadron] and I’ve never regretted it since the day you put me wise to the old BAF Boyce [84 Sqn CO in N. Africa, noted for the lash of his tongue], I was a bit miserable up to then. You’ve probably forgotten, but we flew our kites to 116 the same evening.

It looks as if I will miss my boat through being here, but Aub, Gabe, Darling and Bruce will make it. Tomorrow I have a final test then back to Warli. [Worli was a Base Reception Centre for aircrew passing through]

You got off before I could say goodbye in Quetta and was more than sorry to have gone before you got back, I should liked to have said it rather than to write it here. But thank you for a pleasant stay, our jobs were not always easy, they never are. I shall always think and talk of 84 and the times we have had together. And so Cheerio, I hope we will meet again some day, and still under the same flag.

Do drop me a line when your fan mail is not too heavy. I will add my home address –

All the best with lots of rubber stamping!

Yours...

[Stanwell]

NigG,
That was one gently powerful communication.
Thanks for posting that.

[Danny42C]

What wonderful letter for a C.O. to get !

[MPN11]

There was, in those days, a certain standard of communication which has sadly disappeared. One wrote letters, deposited one's calling card, etc.

Now it's a "Like" on FB occasionally. At least, that's all I ever get from my daughter - I'm still waiting for her to tell me her new address!

[Stanwell]

MPN,
These days, it seems that the only letters one receives are offers from some real estate agents of "A Free Appraisal and Valuation of your Property".
The only calling cards that are left are those of the neighbours' dogs.

[Danny42C]

Came across the little copper plate the other day.....won't chuck it away, as thing'll come in useful one day (but it'll have to hurry up !)

[NigG]

Yes... the late 1940's was, of course, a different age in many ways. As I say, it's intriguing to read through these letters that Arthur kept from that time. But one thing that seems not to be any different (if these letters are a dependable guide) is the way that people interacted on a personal level.

Arthur had a small story to tell about one of his colleagues when he was Station Commander at Old Sarum in the 1950's. It concerned a, then, Lt Colonel of the Middlesex Regiment, whose first name was 'Chris'.

The first overseas possession that the British lost to the Japanese was Hong Kong, which fell in December 1941, after a fortnight's desperate attempt at its defense. This man, Chris, was there as part of the defending force. He was duly taken prisoner and spent the rest of the war in POW camps. When the war in the Far East came to a close in August 1945, thanks to the American deployment of atomic weapons, he was set-free and evacuated to Australia. Having recuperated there, he opted to take a boat back to the UK rather than fly. On that journey home, the ship stopped at Ceylon for a day to refuel, re-provision and transfer passengers. He went ashore and decided to take a taxi to the Galle Face Hotel ('gorl face'), a well-known venue for Westerners, that Arthur knew and indeed still functions as an up-market hotel, beautifully set, by the sea. The reason for his decision to go there was partly that it was his birthday and a celebratory drink was definitely in order, all things considered.

He strolled into the bar and glanced around for a table. Seated across the way were a couple of women, chatting, with glasses in their hands. At that moment, one of them looked towards him, and the colour drained from her face. Their eyes locked and she choked out just a single word. 'CHRIS!'

By an extraordinary coincidence, the woman who had recognised him was none other than his wife, who he had last seen almost four years ago when they were separated by the Japanese and subsequently interned in different countries. After their release, Red Cross records were incomplete and they knew nothing of each other's fate. At the moment he had walked in to the bar, she was just reflecting, ruefully, that it was his birthday and she doubted that she'd ever get to see him again!

There must have been many of moments of huge relief and happiness when husbands and wives were reunited after the war. Maybe this story stands out as being one of the more remarkable!

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture468-galle-face-hotel-colombo-sri-lanka-don-arndt-photo.jpg

Galle Face Hotel, Colombo, Sri Lanka (Don Arndt photo)

[Danny42C]

NigG,

What an amazing co-incidence, and what a charming story ! No novelist would dare to invent it - but it happened just the same.

And what a wave of nostalgia comes over you when you think back to those grand old colonial hotels. I only knew the "Taj" in Bombay and the "Grand" in Calcutta, but you have people (very old ones !) on the Forum who could tell tales of "Raffles" in Singapore and "Shepheards" in Cairo - and many others.

They speak of long past days of confident Empire splendour, built to impress the 'natives' with the omnipotence and dignity of British power. The ghost of Somerset Maugham must haunt them yet.

And now I suppose you can get a 14-day package holiday to them.

Danny.

[MPN11]

The story of 'Chris' I have just dictated to my wife ... with some difficulty, as it was hard to read when your eyes are watering.

[NigG]

Danny

Ah yes! I visited the 'Taj Mahal' (now with 'Intercontinental' tacked onto the name). To stay was out of my price bracket, but back in the early '80s, they did an excellent value buffet lunch. When I went, it was at the end of seven months of independent budget travel (back-packing) around India. The food was pretty, damned awful during those months... over-spicy, under-flavoured and dodgy nutrition (let alone unhygienic). So I looked forward very much to the prospective 'grand feast' at the Taj.

I, and my companion, made sure we were the first to go in at the starting time. Walking down the palm-fronded dining room, there before us, was something that almost brought tears to my eyes. The most sumptuous spread, beautifully garnished. Some was Indian cuisine, but most was Western. Plates of rare roast beef, golden roast chickens, fresh and colourful salads, mouth-watering desserts: mousses, trifles, bowls of whipped cream!

It was, of course, 'all-you-can-eat' and I'd skipped breakfast in order to get my full money's worth. However, the mistake I made was to overlook the fact that there's a delay between stuffing your face and actually feeling 'full'. Suffice it to say, I was in serious pain when I staggered slowly out of the dining room. In pain, but also heady with that euphoria you get when you fully indulge yourself in the most extreme of sensory pleasures! :E

MPN11

A touching tale, I agree. And one that can be fully appreciated by someone who knows what it is to be separated from their soul mate... at a period when they need them most.

Oh! And shame on your daughter! She takes you for granted now. But she'll be destroyed when you kick the bucket. (I speak from bitter experience... having lost a father... as you know.)

[Danny42C]

TO ALL PPRuNers

My wife died peacefully this evening. You will not be hearing from me for some time.

[MPN11]

Oh God ... so sorry, Danny.

My thoughts are with you, and thanks for letting us know in the midst of that.

[NigG]

Danny's last message is a severe turn of events.

One of the satisfactory features of communicating online is that you can read and write with a sort of detachment, if you so wish. There's the more remote cyber world and the actual real world and you can separate the two. But here, at this moment, the two coalesce. Danny's time of trial and trauma is inescapable for us too. That's how it is with true friendships.

For who, among those who visit this place regularly, cannot have formed a strong attachment to Danny? Full of life, wit, knowledge and shrewd observation, he is a paragon... a gentleman too. It's a point of frustration for me, therefore, that I can't reach out to embrace him, as I might in the real world. To share his great burden, beyond the limitations of the screen and the keyboard.

The one comfort is the knowledge that he understands that we are beside him, as family, on the difficult journey that he has now been compelled to take. When the moment is right, he will busy himself again with that great distraction called 'Pprune'. And restored, we'll all be together again, Danny in the midst of us, to reflect, to share and to laugh.

Bless you Danny. We love you.

[50+Ray]

Very well put NigG.
Ray

[Wander00]

Well said NigG

[MPN11]

NigG ... poetic and utterly accurate. Well said, Sir.

[GlobalNav]

The shared grief is strong on both sides of the Atlantic. God bless you Danny.

[savimosh01]

I'm so sorry to hear of Danny's loss of his beloved wife. Thank you NigG for saying so well what many of us feel. God Bless Danny. God Bless Danny's Dearest.

[Fantome]

NigG . . . .Could not agree more with a truly heartfelt position well expressed . (by by the way . . . the cyber world and the real world are typically poles apart . Except that you have made a valid distinction when you say that here, in this case, they coalesce, free of all banalities, in a spirit of comradeship.)

p.s can we not hear Danny rebutting all praise , in absolute modesty, at the same time reaffirming what these virtual lounge rooms , with comfy leather lounge chairs, signify in the way of endless cheerful discourse for him and for all gathered here.?

[NigG]

I agree, Fantome. Danny is modest. He's also very stoical. I think he'll be back before long to be greeted by the roar of 'Three cheers' and a triumphal carry aloft to be placed on the dais, ready for a Pprune march-past. Anyone join me in the motion: 'Danny for Chief of the Air Staff!' :ok:

Nosing through Arthur's boxes of photos and memorabilia, I came across this:

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture469-recruitment-magazine-pre-war-1939.jpg

It's an A4-size (and very musty-smelling!) recruitment brochure, dating to about June 1939, just a few months before war started. It's quite unlike a modern brochure, in that there's absolutely no hype. It runs through the training stages and prerequisites for a permanent commission via Cranwell; Apprenticeship training; the Naval Air Service; the Volunteer Reserve; the Auxiliary Air Force (apparently 'the City of London squadron draws most of its personnel from stockbrokers, banks, insurance and accountants offices'); Civil Air Guard and Cadets; Air Observers (a gunner/bomb aimer/navigator); and Short Service Commissions.

There's articles on 'Service Aircraft in use today' (Blenheim, Battle, Lysander, Whitley... identified as 'the heaviest of the big bombers'...Havard, Sunderland, Gladiator, Swordfish and Hurricane. Of Spits, there's a cutaway illustration showing 'Britain's newest fighter' and 'the world's fastest'. We're told 'the Rolls Royce engine drives a fixed pitch airscrew, but later models will have one with variable pitch' (:eek: Eeks.. get a move on!). There's articles on armaments (torpedoes, four-gun powered turrets, bombs, machine guns and canon), aircraft testing, and the present 'RAF's 21st birthday' and how it's progressed since it's inception including the winning of the Schneider Trophy.

One advertisement does have a touch of hype. Along with a picture of a 'Spit', it says that 'A life in the air is a life worth living' and 'This is a job for keen young men. Good pay, good prospects and a handsome gratuity at the end of your regular service'. (One wonders how many of those who signed up in 1939 got to receive their gratuity. :uhoh:)

This is the caption photo for a Short Service Commission:

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture470-caption-picture-short-service-commission.jpg

Below is written: 'Hawker Hurricane single-seat fighters of N0. 3 (Fighter) Squadron, RAF, at Northolt Aerodrome, Middlesex. In February 1939 a Hurricane piloted by Squadron Leader J W Gillan flew from Turnhouse, Edinburgh to Northolt in 48 minutes at an average speed of 408 miles an hour. After an officer holding a short service commission has completed his training, he may be appointed to a squadron such as the one illustrated above.'

It makes slightly dry, though informative reading. But it certainly captured my imagination. I'm definitely off to the recruiting station tomorrow first thing. Who wouldn't... with the prospect of being that guy sitting in the Hurricane cockpit! :)

[Wander00]

Almost cries out for a WW2 RAF based Blackadder series.

[Fantome]

that recruiting brochure artwork looks like the work of Frank Wootton.
A poster that the RAAF put up all over Australia, from 1940 on, was displayed outside the recruiting centre in Adelaide. I heard once from a pilot in the Second World War (and airlines after) how he was hurrying down North Terrace, aged twenty-two, to join the police force, when that poster hit him right between the eyes. Three months latter he was out at Parafield on the outskirts of Adelaide beginning his course with EFTS there . His name was Colin Griffin. He lived near Kyneton in his latter years. He passed away in 2013. The book he rated most highly about the war in the air was Hillary's 'The Last Enemy'.

THe poster that inspired Col showed a pilot waving as he is halfway into the cockpit of his fighter , the caption reading COMING? - THEN HURRY.

Here is what the Kyneton Aero Club Newsletter had to say about Col -

Vale : Colin Sidney Griffin 01/01/19-03/06/13 by Warren Canning

Long time Kyneton Aero Club member Col Griffin passed away at Kyneton Community Aged Care on Monday 03 June at age 93.
Many members will have fond memories of hours spent with Col, listening to his stories from WWII, and later Airlines and then instructing at Melton. Col started his flying career on DH82 Tiger Moths in Adelaide, before moving to Geraldton on Avro Ansons; where he was involved in the search for HMAS Sydney, after graduating with “Wings” he headed to the UK to join 456 Squadron RAAF.
In the UK Col flew several types, but it was the DH Mosquitos that he flew operationally with 456 SQN, completing 43 missions plus a tour as an instructor on Mossies, for a total of 650 hours on type. After the war he returned to Australia to begin an airline career that would see him fly numerous types, including DC3, Bristol Freighter, Vickers Viscount, F27, DC9 and B727. Few may know that Col was the Captain of Vickers Viscount VH-RMI on its second last sector ever; into Winton in 1966. It took off with a different crew on its next sector and suffered a fire that burnt through the wing spar; with all onboard lost. Col then was seconded to the Board of Inquiry into the crash.
When Col reached the, what would now seem a very young, age of 60 he was retired from the airlines, as was the policy back then. Not to be deterred he took up GA instructing and spent 10 years at Melton as CFI, training many Private and future airline pilots, finally retiring from commercial aviation at age 70. It was a tribute to the respect in which Col was held as an instructor that many of these pilots flew to Melbourne from various interstate locations to be at his Memorial Ceremony.
When asked how many hours he had accrued, Col would respond that he stopped counting when he went over the 30,000 mark, and that was many years ago. He continued flying into his 90s, still taking his wife, Doreen, away in their RV-6 VH-EMG to Adelaide for trips to see their families. At the time CASA pulled his medical, Col had flown continuously for 70 years.
It was a great pleasure to have spent many hours flying with Col; we would often share the command on the out and back sectors to a lunch destination, where he would invariably hold the floor with his many amazing stories from those 70 years of flying, and it was again a mark of the respect in which he was held that people who had met Col through these “lunchtime” adventures flew into YKTN to be at his Memorial. In 2011 we got to share a great adventure together when we flew Yak 52 VH-YEK, in which Col was a partner, on the RAAF’s 90th Anniversary Air Pilgrimage. When the RAAF media realised they had a genuine WWII Mossie pilot on the event Col instantly became the media darling; doing numerous print, radio and TV interviews along the way. At the Gala Dinner at the Point Cook Officers Mess on the night of the 90th Anniversary he came in for special mention in front of the Chief of Defence, Chief of Air Force and 6 Retired Chiefs of Air Force, and he loved every minute of it.
As Col’s health faded he was no longer able to get into his RV-6, so Saturday lunches reverted to a very enjoyable time around the table at the Kyneton Aero Club; where Col revelled in the companionship of fellow aviators, and was always only too happy to offer very sound advice, or to listen as others gave theirs. Even in these later years, he lived life to the absolute fullest, he had a great wit and infectious sense of humor, not always politically correct, but that was one of the things we all loved about Col.
Colin Sidney Griffin will be sadly missed; he truly was one of a kind.

The club's president, Matt added these remarks -

It is sad and unfortunate that I begin another report discussing the passing of another member of the Kyneton Aero Club family. Col Griffin.
Many of you will have also attended the memorial service held on Saturday 15 June. Approximately 200 people turned up to say goodbye to a dear family member and friend, many having travelled from interstate.
It was a fitting farewell for someone who had made a positive impact on so many lives, starting with a Missing Man formation fly-past and finishing with a very moving service performed by the Kyneton RSL, complete with Bugler.
While I never had the opportunity to share a cockpit with Col, I did have the opportunity to share a couch with him on many occasions and listen to him tell countless stories of his adventures in the air over a 70 year period.
For me, a comparatively young and inexperienced pilot, Col was an inspiration. I hope I make it to 70 years of age and be fit and able to fly. The idea of flying continuously for the next 50 years is beyond imagining. He was an amazing man and will be sadly missed by all.

[Stanwell]

NigG,
Average of 408mph?
Sqn Ldr Gillan must have had a pretty good tail wind.

Fantome,
Excellent post. Thank you.

[Fantome]

408 mate? bloody sluggard . . . .in 1931 the S6b reset the world record
at 407 mph . we remember certain numbers that are locked in despite the passage of years. . . that is one of them . . . also first proper girl friend's phone number . . .363840. . . . when I gave it to the late Lane Morrow , a very dry yank flying at the time for Masling Airlines, he came straight back with "KINDA PEAR-SHAPED?" ( and THIS is what I'd call call a real segue , cobber.)\

Note that THE KING'S AIR FORCE cost sixpence . Remember that in the sixties we could . . . anybody could. . . ask DCA to send THE REGISTER OF CIVIL AIRCRAFT (in it''s pale blue covers with the metal bend over pins going through the binding holes. Publication services such as this one were free of charge. My old registers are ready to go to a good home now, along with mountains of other aeronautica)

[NigG]

Wander00... 'Black Adder RAF WW2'. Stephen Fry as Bomber Harris... 'They sowed the wind.. now they'll reap the whirlwind!'... too grim!

That's what I thought, Stanwell, a helping hand from a convenient Northerly Force 6 to achieve that speed!

Fantome... one can hardly blame Col Griffin for getting so easily hooked (..by a poster) into becoming a pilot. The romance of the aircraft of those days seems to me to out-class anything around today. Though I suppose any sense of romance must have ebbed away pretty quickly when your aircraft turned defective in the air, or you found that you were lost due to the lack of navigational aids.

There's another photo that caught my eye in that brochure:

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture471-raf-vr-trainees-hanworth-early-1939.jpg

The caption reads: 'Final instructions being given to Volunteer Reserve pilots before practice flights from Hanworth Aerodrome. The aircraft are Blackburn B2 trainers which have side-by-side seating. Volunteer Reserve pilots receive a fifty hours course of elementary training before flying service types of aircraft. The elementary training is similar to that received by regular pilots of the Royal Air Force.'

Arthur trained at Hanworth too, though at this time he was nearing the end of his advanced training and was shortly to gain his Wings.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture473-raf-vr-ground-instruction-1939.jpg

Caption: 'Plotting courses for cross-country flights is part of the ground instruction which all Volunteer Reserve pilots receive in addition to their flying training. Instruction in the operation of machine guns and other armaments is also given. All Volunteer Reserve training is received at civil training schools and certain payments are made in return for the men's service.'

I was definitely born into the wrong generation! :ugh:

[NigG]

84 Sqn in the Western Desert

I've uploaded some of Arthur's photos that illustrate the Squadron's period in the desert in Nov/Dec 1941. They completed almost a full tour of 27 ops, as part of Operation Crusader. This was the British Commonwealth's first success against Rommel, causing him to withdraw, as he was outflanked by the 14th Army's advance, and effecting the relief of Tobruk.

All raids were in formations of 6, 12, 18 or 24 Blenheims; three RAF and a Free French squadron forming No.270 Wing. Normal bomb load was four 250-lb bombs, with fuses fitted at the nose and tail. The nose fuse was usually fitted with an extension rod, causing the bomb to explode above ground level, thus maximising blast, rather than the bomb burying itself. Bombs would be released when the lead aircraft was seen to release it's load, so as to concentrate the impact zone.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture476-84-lg-75-western-desert.jpg

Above: a crew in their (personally) dug-out sleeping bay at Landing Ground 75.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture478-co-wg-cdr-boyce.jpg

Above: the CO, Wg Cdr Clayton Boyce. Short but dynamic and strictly 'no nonsense'. Much given to raising his voice.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture480-arthur-s-gunner-after-warding-off-me-109s.jpg

Above: Arthur's gunner... in an excellent frame of mind. They had just returned from an operation (photo below) in which they were attacked by ME 109s. The gunner was fully occupied, and was satisfied that he had hit two German aircraft. Unfortunately four escorting Hurricanes were lost.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture482-el-adem-attack-dispersed-transports-dec-1941.jpg

Above: a target photo from a full squadron attack on enemy transport at El Adem. The black dots are dispersed vehicles. Intelligence estimated that 53 vehicles were destroyed.

(More photos to follow. Previous photos on this period in the desert are on p.15 & 16)

[Wander00]

Does anyone know when Mrs Danny's funeral is, so we can in our small corners of the world raise a glass to them both

[Danny42C]

Monday 5th September 1400 BST.
D.

[Wander00]

Danny, thanks - I am sure we will all be thinking of you and your family


W

[NigG]

That includes me, as a certainty.

[NigG]

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture489-armstrong-whitworth-whitley-c-1940.jpg

I'm re-reading the excellent 'Chasing after danger' by Terence O'Brien. He was an Aussie who travelled to the UK in 1939 to join the RAF. He had a story to tell about the (above) Whitley bomber, mentioned earlier in the post on the recruitment magazine of 1939, where it was described as being Britain's 'heavy bomber'.

O'Brien was, at the time of hearing this story, consigned to working in the cookhouse, while waiting for a posting for pilot training. He was at Dishforth, in Yorkshire, from which 10 Sqn was flying Whitleys most nights, to drop leaflets over Germany. (The Germans, of course, were extremely grateful for such geneous supplies of toilet paper.)

There's many 'rear gunner' stories that came out of the war, aren't there? I rather sympathise with them. Many were recruited from ground staff in the early days, who eagerly seized the opportunity for adventure and promotion. Unfortunately rear turrets were cramped, cold... and very dangerous if enemy fighters latched onto the tail. Much to their regret, tail gunners who decided the role was no longer for them, discovered that it was impossible to un-volunteer themselves. Anyway, the story concerns one such tail-gunner (and I re-hash O'Brien's version mostly into my own words).

On this occasion, a Whitley was returning from France. It was a bitterly cold evening and the aircraft had crossed over the Channel. The gunner, cramped and cold, was no doubt looking forward to landing. Suddenly there was an almighty wrench and the tortured-metal cacophony of impact, followed seconds later by a dazed silence. The tail-gunner realised the aircraft had crash-landed and fearing fire, urgently reversed his turret and exited onto the ground. Then he stumbled to the front of the aeroplane desperate to help his fellow crew members to get out before a fuel tank went up. He could see no one through the perspex, so he entered the fuselage. To his utter astonishment and confusion... there was absolutely no one there!

He later learned the explanation. The Whitley, flying through freezing cloud, had become so iced-up that the pilot could no longer operate the controls. So he ordered the crew to bale-out which, heart-in-mouth, he and they urgently did. What they didn't realise was that the intercom to the tail-gunner had become disconnected. The crew were now gone into the night and the aircraft, locked with ice, flew on at a gently descending angle; the tail-gunner 'blissfully unaware of his appalling solitude'. The plane continued for some minutes before it's doomed encounter with a wide open ploughed field, where 'it belly-flopped with a heavy but not disastrous impact, and after a single stable bounce, slithered through mud and ice to a standstill'.

Apparently, the gunner was made of stern stuff. When O'Brien managed to chat with him in the cookhouse, he denied having been undermined by the experience: 'Frightened?... no not me', he said. 'I was down alright, you see!' And with that, he was off up to the counter for a second helping of breakfast... aircrew being entitled to extra on return from a night-time operation.

(If you're wanting a 'holiday read', O'Brien's book is worth hunting down. 'An extraordinary achievement' was the Times Literary Supplement's conclusion. They weren't wrong. (ISBN 0099874105)

[NigG]

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture494-arthur-vengeance-beating-up-train-ground-staff-were-travelling-their-way-raf-cholavarum-madras.jpg

The photo above, which I came across recently in one of Arthur's boxes, looked to be an item worthy of the bin! It was in an envelope with another, on the back of which was written an explanation.

In January 1943 , 84 Sqn was moving from Vizagapatam, on India's west coast, further south to Cholarvarum, Madras. They had recently equipped with the Vultee Vengeance and were about to acquire Mk.2s, passing their Mk.1s over to 45 and 82 Sqns. The main party was being taken by train to the new airfield, and this rather blurry shot was taken from the train window. Arthur and his navigator, New Zealander Flt Lt Jimmy Hawke, decided on their flight south to intercept the train and put on an impromptu performance to entertain the boys on their rather slow and boring journey. The photo is of one of the passes that the two of them made during several minutes of 'beating up' the train.

(In addition, a small reminder that 'Danny' and his daughter will be attending the funeral of their respective wife and mother at 14.00 (BST/GMT+1) tomorrow (Monday). The strain on them both doesn't bear thinking about... or perhaps it does. I've been reading a sheaf of letters that Arthur kept, many of them from his ex-colleagues in 84 Sqn, written just after the war. It's striking how many were getting married to their sweethearts now that war was over. It's cheering that 'Danny' has had so many years with his wife beside him. It's sad too that that period has drawn to a close and Danny has had to face this unspeakable trauma. In my mind, I'll be with him tomorrow.)

[MPN11]

We will be meeting at lunch tomorrow with a few friends here in Virginia, one of whom is Danny's age. I must remember to tell him the outline of Danny's adventures and presence here. Sadly our older friend is almost blind now, so he doesn't use the Internet any more.

Our thoughts are with you, Danny.

[Wander00]

I am sure all of us will be thinking of Danny and his family this afternoon

[Danny42C]

Please see my Post #9239 on "Pilot's Brevet" Thread (content applies equally to all here).

Danny.

[NigG]

Danny wrote this:

I'm immensely grateful and humbled by the number and shining sincerity of the condolences expressed to me and my wonderful daughter, and we can only say a simple "Thank you all". I came across these verses which I find meets my case, and may help others:

"Don't tell me that you understand
Don't tell me that you know
Don't tell me that I will survive
How I will surely grow

Don't come to me with answers
That can only come from me
Don't tell me how my grief will pass
That I will soon be free

Accept me just the way I am
I need someone to share
Just let me grieve and take my hand
To show me that you care"

And you, my friends, have done this admirably for me and my Mary. (As a bonus, thank you also for the kind things said about me and my scribblings - although it makes me feel as if I'm reading my own Obituary !)


Not to be out-done by the verse above.. I have a little ditty of my own to add (..not quite as well-polished):

They say 'he's ninety-four, you know...
(Is it really true?')
Such style, such wit... and fount of knowledge too!
Master of the Vultee 'Vee' and hero
of the type that's dressed
...only in Air Force Blue!

Oh, sing it out, let's sing it loud..
Some can hum the tune...
'Danny' Boy, Oh 'Danny'!
All declare him...

'KING OF PPRuNe!'

and now everyone is howling...
'DANNY!'... OH... O-U-R... D-A-N-N-Y!

(please 'Danny'... come back soon!)

[MPN11]

Bloody Hell ... you'll embarrass him into silence at this rate :)

[Danny42C]

MPN11, Thank you ! Danny (who has crept, purple with confusion, under the nearest flat stone !)

NigG,

What a marvellous bit of extempore verse - I can't match that !
The King of PPRuNe ? Not bloody likely ! ("....Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown...." ?)
No, it's a democracy here - back to the old cyber-crewroom, chaps, poke the stove, get the kettle on and the cards out - and SHUT THAT DOOR ! It's cold outside !

Danny.

[NigG]

EXCELLENT! Our Danny's back! And who can doubt it?... 100% on form!! :D

[Danny42C]

NigG (#380),

An interesting picture indeed - but I was curious to see that the VV shown had no visible armament poking about from the back. I never knew anything about the anti-submarine patrols, but I suppose the rear guns were unnecessary, as the possibility of a Japanese interception was nil, and taking out 400lb of weight (2x 0.303 plus ammo, ammo tanks and mountings) can only be a good idea.

A surprising thing is that the standard RAF roundels had not been replaced by the blue and white ones, but January '43 was early days (a Google/Wiki search tells me that the South East Asia Air Command was only set up in the August of that year). Yet I'm sure we went to war in the May wearing blue/whites.

Did your Dad say anything about the tactics to be used if a submarine were spotted on one of those sweeps ? (yes, I know I should know, for 110 had been doing them from Karachi before they went to Madhaiganj where I joined them just after Christmas '42. I should have asked then, but had other things on my mind).

They would have had to be sure that any submarine they found on the surface (did they ever find any ?) was not "one of ours" (as far as I'm concerned, if you've seen one submarine, you've seen 'em all). You can't do that from 10-12,000 ft, so they would have to hunt low, say 2-3,000. Supposing you found an enemy one, what then ? The 0.300s in the wings could do a sub no harm, your bombs would have to be fused "instantaneous", or with "rods", as dropped low level, they'd probably bounce off the sub casing in the very unlikely case of a direct hit. And which would be better, to drop them one at a time (the switchgear allowed that) in four separate attacks, or all four in one go ? (bearing in mind that the sub would crash-dive and not be a target for long).

I reckon Vizag - Cholaveram about 450 miles "as the crow flies", but of course the East Coast main rail line would follow the curve of the coast. Stops would be frequent, so the time-table would allow a succesful rendevous to be arranged. Don't know Vizag, but Cholaveram was a very pleasant place. It was really a northern suburb of Madras, close enough to the sea to have a nice breeze and not too hot in summer. I spent the first three months of '45 on a Calibration Flight there, and thought I would be going home in the autumn "trooping season". But Fate and the "exigencies of the service" dictated otherwise.

Danny.

[NigG]

Danny (...SO excited that you're back!! :ok:)

Ah... now you have got me scurrying around! I'm not sure about the absence of the rear guns in the photo. But I seem to remember reading, possibly on the back of a photo, about an aircraft being without them. The squadron was about to hand-over the Mk.1 Vengeances and receive Mk.IIs... and the flight was being made as part of the transfer down to Cholavaram, so I don't know if that might have accounted for their absence. Certainly when they moved down to Ceylon, in anticipation of a Japanese naval attack, the guns were in situ (of course).

I have been more successful with checks about 84 conducting anti-submarine patrols when they were in Ceylon. In short... they weren't! Neither the Squadron history, 'Scorpions Sting', nor Peter Smith's 'Vengeance' refer to such activities (though, yes I recall Smith referring to such patrols by other squadron(s) off the Arakan coast). Smith does give an interesting description of 84's activities in Ceylon. Essentially it was honing their dive bombing skills, either with live bombs on an unfortunate rock off the shore of Colombo, or dummy dives on Naval warships, giving the ships company a useful and spectacular taste of what it might be like to have a force of Jap aircraft diving at them, the ships zig-zagging in evasive action. The other dummy targets were ground-based ones like Colombo harbour. Flt Lt Hawke recalled that he thought on that particular 'attack' that his wireless set was burning-out, only to realise that it was the smoke from a harbour chimney that was filling his nostrils! (p.105-6 in 'Vengeance'... I know you have it in your possession, Danny.) Arthur's log book also confirms the period of practice attacks and honing of personal skills... quite a few of the crews being 'new on type'. Low level flying was also a prominent feature of training.

After three months of that, the Jap naval force hadn't materialised as expected and Arthur was ready to move on. The opportunity to put his case came when they had a visit from the Deputy AOC SEAC, AM Garrard and AVM Lees, AOC Ceylon...

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture447-am-garrod-avm-lees-visiting-ratmalana-ceylon-july-1943-left-sl-gill-84-sqn-garrod-lees-wc-butler-sqn-comd-wc-paul-stn-comd.jpg

Arthur on the left, looking very youthful! They had made their visit to help sort problems, and in that vein, Arthur put it to AM Garrard that if the Japanese threat was no longer considered to be imminent, would it be possible for 84 Sqn to head north into battle, rather than continue with yet more training and swimming. Two months later the Squadron had moved up to the Army training area at Ranchi and was in training with the 14th Army, prior to the big push into Burma. By that time, word had got out that the Vengeance was a formidable aircraft well-suited to close air support of ground troops and the soldiers were very keen to learn how to employ it operationally.

So 84 didn't develop tactics for submarine attack in so far as records show. But for the destruction of enemy submarines, Danny, wouldn't the weapon of choice have been depth charges? And if so, wouldn't that have been outside the capabilities of the Vengeance?

[Danny42C]

NigG (#389),
...with checks about 84 conducting anti-submarine patrols when they were in Ceylon. In short... they weren't!...
Rather as I suspected - they were no more than simple reconnaissance sweeps (same with 110 at Karachi). I would think that it was a case of: "We've got these new aircraft. We've got to do something with them. This is something. Let's do it !.
...honing their dive bombing skills, either with live bombs on an unfortunate rock off the shore of Colombo,,,With all due respect, why waste real bombs on an offshore rock (we were short of them in the Arakan in May '43 - or at least it was a case of deliveries "just in time"). Why not fit practice bomb racks (available), find a land range where practice bomb hits could be accurately plotted, and really learn dive bombing ?
...or dummy dives on Naval warships...
Good fun for everyone concerned, but of little training value (for us) IMHO. But it enables me to raise a question which has always stuck at at the back of my mind: how much time would a ship have to "dodge" a dive bomb ? We know that a VV would be at terminal velocity of some 300 mph on bomb release at a true 3,000 ft agl. If the bomb continued at that speed (400 ft/sec), it would hit in about 7 seconds. But, far more streamlined than the brick-like VV, the bomb would accelerate more under "G" (the old 32ft/sec/sec). I've long forgotten any differential calculus I ever learned....... Anybody ? (assume air resistance plays no further part).
Let's guess five seconds. How far can you turn a large ship in that time ? At Midway all four big Jap fleet carriers were hit (three fatally) in less than 20 minutes (I've read a figure of 7½ minutes) by a squadron of Douglas "Dauntless" (A-20).
...it was the smoke from a harbour chimney that was filling his nostrils! (p.105-6 in 'Vengeance' ...
At 30,000 ft, 30 miles out in the North Sea, I could smell the Teesside steelworks in a Vampire (people always blamed the pong on ICI !).
... By that time, word had got out that the Vengeance was a formidable aircraft well-suited to close air support of ground troops and the soldiers were very keen to learn how to employ it operationally...
Not "By that time". The VV couldn't even find the Japs in the field in the fluid fighting of '42/'43, which meant that we'd to go down to Akyab (miles from the land battle) for targets.

Next year all was different, the Army were pushing the Jap back south in the Arakan, he adopted the policy of digging-in at strongpoints to delay our advance, the VV came into its own as a bunker-buster, the Army was delighted with us and the plaudits flooded in. And the next year ? They pulled us out of the line when we could easily have done another dry season before Japan threw in the towel (we couldn't be seen to be successful, you see - it wasn't in accord with Official Policy).
... But for the destruction of enemy submarines, Danny, wouldn't the weapon of choice have been depth charges? And if so, wouldn't that have been outside the capabilities of the Vengeance?... No reason why not. From Wiki I learn that the things were in the 5-600 lb range; Sunderlands and Catalinas used to carry them on ordinary 500 lb racks. Even if they were too fat to fit in our bomb bays, 500 lbs had been tried on the VV wing (the aircraft could barely get off the ground with a 2,000 lb load, but that's another matter !)

Danny.

[NigG]

Danny

Thanks for the review and your interesting thoughts. You've spurred me to do a bit more checking.

Yup... you're right about the bombing... practice bombs were employed. According to Arthur's log, mostly 11.5 lb and some 20 lb, very rarely full-weight weapons. Also checking through the log, no sign of 'reconnaissance sweeps', as you speculated. Hold on to your hat (there was very little faffing-about)... here's a selection of Arthur's log book entries from:

May/June '43

Dambulla and return. Formation low-level dummy attack; ARP Exercise.

Low-level local flying

Ramrod I Low-level 'attack' on Puttalam aerodrome by 11 Vengeances escorted by 30 (F) Sqdn

Dives 10,000' to sea level

Formation 'fly-past' over Queen's House Colombo - United Nations Day

Exercise 'Fog' (RAF and Southern Army manouvres). 'Raid' on St Thomas Mount

Low-level 'attack' on defile to block 'Jap' advance. Very successful.

Low-level 'attack' on bridge at Chaudepaulle

'Raid' on Tirravallur aerodrome. 'Jap' aircraft dive attack from 12,000'

July/August '43:

2x 11.5lb dive from 10000' One direct hit, one 10 yds error on target.

[With a Major in the back:] Full war-load test 1500lb bombs 5000 rds .303. 6 guns

Bombing 2 x 250lb 50 yds line error. Gongala rock bombing 2x 11.5lb LL

Dive attack and ground strafing Colombo Harbour and oil refineries

Exercise Cax Attack by 6 VVs on HMS Newcastle.

Exercise Thunderbox. Attack on HMS Scout

Bombing dive 10,000' Direct hit on Gongala rock 1x 11.5lb bomb

Bombing low level 1,000' 2x 11.5lb One direct hit, one 30 yds Front and rear guns firing practice.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture357-arthur-vultee-vengeance-over-colombo-ceylon-1943.jpg

In September they were working with the Army at Ranchi, trialing target-indication, bombing pill boxes, and more use of practice bombs, then December with the Chindits doing target indication trails with smoke, and live bombing demonstration: 6 aircraft with 500lb bombs. In February '44 they moved to Kumbhirgram and began ops against the Japanese, supporting both the 14th Army and the Chindits.

Interesting what you say about Naval ships zig-zagging and how pointless that would be. In truth, that was my speculation that they did this! Maybe they didn't as a defence against air attack... maybe just for submarines where there was a decent chance of dodging a torpedo or spoiling an aim.

Again you've caught me out! I wrote:

... By that time, word had got out that the Vengeance was a formidable aircraft well-suited to close air support of ground troops and the soldiers were very keen to learn how to employ it operationally...

You replied: Not "By that time". The VV couldn't even find the Japs in the field in the fluid fighting of '42/'43, which meant that we'd to go down to Akyab (miles from the land battle) for targets.

What Arthur actually wrote was:

[At Ranchi, Sep '43] ..a stream of senior Army officers asked to visit and talk about the RAF's new dive-bomber. Many had experienced the Stuka in Europe...The officers of 15 Corps were very keen to see the results of our bombing and whether or not 84 Squadron was as good as they claimed to be. In the past they had not been well supported by the RAF and had little faith in our abilities. This was due to a shortage of suitable aircraft at the time and the wrong use of the types of aircraft available. Here at last was an aircraft which the RAF claimed was ideal for the close support of the Army.

He went on to say that they demonstrated the effectiveness of the Vengeance on a target of bunkers built by the Army, and they were suitable impressed.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-84-squadron-india-burma-campaign-1944-picture363-bombs-dropped-japanese-position-tanks-about-roll.jpg

Regarding your statement that Vengeances weren't used in 1945 because 'we couldn't be seen to be successful, you see - it wasn't in accord with Official Policy'. This isn't really so is it? All the Vengeance squadrons had been scheduled to re-equip with the Mosquito, which presumably, when the decision was made, was thought to be more effective than the Vengeance. Certainly it was, where there was low-level cloud that precluded the Vengeance's highly accurate vertical dive.

[Danny42C]

NigG (#391),

The pic is also in Peter C Smith's "Vengeance!" (p.111), captioned as : "over Mount Lavinia hotel and railway station in Northen Ceylon". Looks a nice place for a weekend ! - but sounds pricey. (Google/TravelBag has all the details, says it is overlooking Columbo).

Again many references in the log to 'low-level attacks'. Never did any myself, and have made plain here my opinion of the idea. what the VV did best was what it was built for: high level, ideally vertical dives from 10-12,000 ft. That way you got the famed VV accuracy.

The standard practice (11½ lb) rack carried 4 smoke practice bombs; as it only took some 15 mins to climb up after each dive, the exercise fitted neatly into an hour on range. No sense in just carrying only one. How big was this Gongala rock, anyway ?
...Naval ships zig-zagging and how pointless that would be. In truth, that was my speculation that they did this!...
They did, in fact, putting the helm hard over as soon as the bomber started its attack. But as you put your yellow line on the ship (I would imagine) and kept it there during the dive, the ship would still only have a few seconds to move from your aiming point (has anyone done the math, far too hard for me ?) The Jap carriers at Midway would certainly have been turning as fast as they could, but that did not save them.
...This isn't really so is it? All the Vengeance squadrons had been scheduled to re-equip with the Mosquito, which presumably, when the decision was made, was thought to be more effective than the Vengeance...
It was "horses for courses". And this misses the point that the Mosquitoes which came out in the spring of '44 all brought their own fully trained crews with them. The old Vengeance crews had a better claim to the squadron names and numbers (they still included members of the 'old guard', who'd flown the Blenheims in 4 Group in '42) than these parvenues.

Why not form four new squadrons for the newcomers, but let the VVs and their crews (who still had a year of their 'tours' to serve) carry on as they were for that last dry season ? The 14th Army had the Japs on the run in Burma, ideal conditions for a bunker-buster, and we could have done more good work to help the Army. But for some reason it was not to be......We were pulled out at the onset of the '44 monsoon, aircraft and crews frittered away on odd jobs.

Danny.

[NigG]

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture495-de-havilland-dh-98-mosquito-excc-1.jpg

Danny... absolutely. It seems to have been a bad decision to replace the Vengeances with Mosquitoes. I think some squadrons, like 110 got back into the fight in 1945, at the end of the Burma campaign, but 84 Sqdn, who came out of Burma a couple of months after the other Vengeance Sqdns were withdrawn to re-equip, failed to get back to the fight. Here's why...

July 1944: Withdrew from action in Burma to Samungli, Quetta.

September: CO (Arthur) posted. Temporary CO took over. Sqdn strength reduced by half.

October: all Vengeances withdrawn and Sqdn moved to Yelahanka, Bangalore, on the opposite side of India. Temporary CO replaced by new CO.

November: new CO replaced by another, the now 'old CO' becoming a Flight Commander. Mosquito conversion staff arrived, but no Mosquitoes... used Oxfords. Mosquitoes held up by technical failures... fresh plan was to re-equip with Vengeance IIIs and get back into action.

December: Only five Vengeances were on strength, brought out from storage, due to manufacturing faults with the self-sealing fuel tanks of newly shipped aircraft, so the original plan to convert to Mosquitoes was to resume.

February 1945: First 'Mossie' arrived. Three aircraft lost to flying accidents.

April: Conversion and initial training on the Mosquito completed and 16 aircraft on strength. Sqdn moved to Chiharra, Calcutta, to await move forward to the battle. Fighter affiliation exercises conducted.

May: plan to move to Chakulia postponed, due to shortage of transport. CO posted.

June: More losses due to flying accidents. Further three aircraft condemned due to deterioration of wing surfaces... the wooden Mosquito was not faring well in tropical conditions. Sqdn strength down to nine aircraft. New CO arrived. (Wg Cdr Constable-Maxwell managed to prevent the Sqdn being disbanded, through a contact in the Air Council.) Sqdn moved to St Thomas Mount, Madras, South India. CO's insistence on practice dive-bombing the Mosquito wasn't liked as there were no dive brakes on the aircraft, and one crew fatality followed.

July: Five crews posted to 45 Sqdn.

August: Atom bombs dropped and Japan surrendered.

Conversion to the Mosquito evidently caused a massive 'faff'. Had the Vengeances been kept on strength in 84 Sqdn, they would have been back in action in October 1944, when the monsoon cleared. That would have facilitated a further eight months of fighting in support of the 14th Army until July '45, when the monsoon returned. The one 'upside' of course, was that the fight to reconquer Burma was, in the final analysis, made redundant by the dropping of the Atom bombs.

It's regrettable that the Americans hadn't been able to develop the Atom Bomb earlier. Had they done so, the Vengeance Sqdns and everybody else could have relaxed in the shade with nimbu parnies, instead of risking their necks. But then a remarkable chapter in the history of the RAF would never have been written.

[NigG]

Danny, you asked how big is Gongala Rock, the practice target that 84 used. Have searched diligently without definite success. Only 'rock' I could find locally was this. Difficult to see past the foreground... but do your best!

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture496-a.jpg

[Danny42C]

NigG (#393),

How many times does your Father's postings dovetail in with mine ! (to avoid tedious repetition, look up "Pilot's Brevet" from p.150 #2993 and a whole host of succeeding Posts).

For 8 (IAF) went up to Samungli, too, at much the same time. Curiously, I've no recollection of our sharing the airfield with 84, bút that is not evidence, probably just a case of a hole in my memory (among many more !)
...fresh plan was to re-equip with Vengeance IIIs and get back into action...What a pity we didn't - but then again, I would never have had my year in my first (and last !) Command in the RAF, and would not have enjoyed my "cherry on the cake", described in "Military life on the Malabar Coast of India in WWII" Thread (which must still be gathering dust far back in "Military Aviation").

Lovely pic of the "Wooden Wonder". Only flew a few hours in them as a passenger, but tremendously impressed.

Will return to your Post....Goodnight now,

Danny.

[Union Jack]

..... described in "Military life on the Malabar Coast of India in WWII" Thread (which must still be gathering dust far back in "Military Aviation"). - Danny

Oh no it's not...:ok:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/575907-military-life-malabar-coast-india-wwii.html

Jack

[Danny42C]

NigG (#381 revisited)
...November [1944]: Mosquito conversion staff arrived, but no Mosquitoes... used Oxfords...
These can only have been for the conversion of the VV pilots (who we almost all s/e). And where would have been the sense in converting these, who had less than a year of their "tours" left ? The new Mosquito pilots, who had a full tour ahead of them, were already fully trained (fresh out of OTU ?) and would not need Oxfords.

Curiously, the Oxford was still in use as late as 1964 as a lead-in to the Meteor, as it had been in the early fifties (no wonder the poor little Meteor studes [and their instructors] died like flies in those years).
...Mosquitoes held up by technical failures...
You can say that again ! They fell to bits, often in mid air, starting in the April by killing Wg Cdr Stumm, new CO of 45 and his crewman, and going on from there, until the rot was stopped at the end of the year.
...fresh plan was to re-equip with Vengeance IIIs and get back into action...
The old Mks. I and II (which had flown all the 'ops' in 1943-44 dry seasons) were all clapped-out. The Mk. III (which was the same aeroplane) was never in action AFAIK.
Danny was roped in to instruct the new boys at Yelahanka - but the policy was reversed the very day I arrived !
...December [1944]: Only five Vengeances were on strength....... due to manufacturing faults with the self-sealing fuel tanks of newly shipped aircraft, so the original plan to convert to Mosquitoes was to resume...
The self-sealing tank problem goes back to the very beginning, Peter C. Smith refers to it early on in his "Vengeance!" The "original plan" was resumed simply because they'd solved the glue problem in the Mossies, and for no other reason (we'd lived with the tank problem all the time).
...April [1945]: Conversion and initial training on the Mosquito completed and 16 aircraft on strength. Sqdn moved to Chiharra, Calcutta, to await move forward to the battle. Fighter affiliation exercises conducted...Can't trace a Chiharra. Near Calcutta ? Knew the area well. Now for a while 8 (IAF) were at what we called Chaara, but that is about 100 miles SW of 'Cal'. Struck oil on Google/Wiki with:
...Bura Chara, India - Geotagged Places of Interest - LatLongWiki.com
www.latlongwiki.com/?l=26.459386&g...Bura%20Chara,%20India (http://www.latlongwiki.com/?l=26.459386&g...Bura%20Chara,%20India)
12 Dec 2014 ... Geotagged Wikipedia and Wikivoyage Places around Bura Chara, India ... Cooch
Behar Airport; is located at Cooch Behar, West Bengal, India...The 'Bura' part simply means "Greater" - it is not really part of the name. The young Maharajah of Cooch Bihar was one of the better known of the men-about-town around the Calcutta night clubs, and something of a babe-magnet (so I was told).

...May: plan to move to Chakulia postponed,...
Chakulia Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakulia_Airport‎CachedSimilar
Chakulia Airport is an airport in India. It is located southwest of the city of Chakulia, a city and a ...... no scheduled commercial airline flights. In 2006, it was reported that the airport has been non-operational since it served during World War II....
Not far from Calcutta (Wiki map).
...February 1945: First 'Mossie' arrived...
It's getting very late in the day (but we didn't know it then).
...August: Atom bombs dropped and Japan surrendered...
Leaving us all dressed up with nowhere to go !
...Conversion to the Mosquito evidently caused a massive 'faff'. Had the Vengeances been kept on strength in 84 Sqdn, they would have been back in action in October 1944, when the monsoon cleared. That would have facilitated a further eight months of fighting in support of the 14th Army until July '45, when the monsoon returned. The one 'upside' of course...
My point exactly ! Ah, well......

Looks as if 84 never had a chance to strike a blow with their Mossies - time ran out.

.....................

(#394),

Tearing the eyes reluctantly from the distraction in the foreground, and in the absence of any idea of range, it is difficult to tell, but I would say that the Gongala "Rock"would be of a size difficult to miss in a VV (or anything else for that matter in daylight !)

Danny.

[NigG]

Bother! Just lost my post... so to re-write in short, Danny... thanks for your comments. The airstrip that 84 went to was 'Chharra', not 'Chiharra'... misread it... cheap reading glasses, not my eyes. So I guess it was the 'Chaara' that you knew of.

Yes I have my doubts about that being Gongala rock... magnificent view though that photo presents. I think what's in the photo would more properly be called an 'island' rather than a 'rock'. However, despite the hundreds of online pictures of Colombo's coastline, I could spot no offshore 'rock'. Possibly there was one... as I say...these damned glasses.

To move on.. and to continue from my post 374 on the previous page, some more of Arthur's photos of 84 Squadron in the Western Desert, where they were participating in Operation Crusader in 1941, against the Italians and the Afrika Korps.

Below: Crews debriefing outside the Ops Room at LG 75, on return from an operation.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture479-aircrew-debriefing-outside-ops-room.jpg

Below: the crewroom dugout.. CO Wg Cdr Boyce in the foreground on the left.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture477-crew-room-dugout-lg75.jpg

Below: one of many attacks on the defences at Bardia

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture481-bardia-defences-dec-1941.jpg

Below: 84 were withdrawn from the desert in order to re-equip with new Blenheim IVs in Egypt and then fly down to Sumatra, in the Far East, to help counter the Japanese offensive. This shot was taken at Sharjah, Iran, during an overnight stop on that nine-leg journey. Only 18 out of 24 aircraft completed the journey. Within a month, all aircraft had been lost either to accidents or to the Japanese. A haunting photograph.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture475-84-sqn-over-night-stop-sharjah-iran-en-route-egypt-sumatra-jan-1942.jpg

[NigG]

Wg Cdr Boyce, referred to in the photo above, handed over the command of 84 Squadron to Wg Cdr Jeudwine. Jeudwine took the Squadron out to Sumatra and led the action against the Japanese. (He was also the one who escaped from Java to Australia by lifeboat under sail.. see page 6, post 106, for the remarkable story.)

Arthur corresponded with Boyce after the war. Here's one of Boyce's letters, which refers to Jeudwine:

Nov.1945 From, now Gp Capt(?) Clayton Boyce, HQ 8 Group, RAF Huntingdon.

My dear Gill,

Thank you so much for your letter. Yes it was very bad luck. Poor old Jeudwine getting the chop. He had a Station in this Group, you know. I’m afraid he was split-arsing in a Typhoon and stalled upside down too low to recover. I went to his funeral. Very sad business.

Jeudwine told me just before he was killed that Johnny Taylor was back safe and sound. [from being a prisoner of war] Also Keble White which rather amazed me. I should have thought the Japs would almost certainly have bumped him off. I always felt like it myself. [He mentions others from 84 Sqn] I should very much like to see old Ashmole again but don’t know when I shall be able to get up to London. [Ashmole had been his Adjutant, and was now restoring the bomb-damaged British Museum]

This Group is rapidly disbanding and I have been posted to Upwood as Station Commander, losing my acting rank the day after tomorrow. However I cannot complain as it has been very good while it lasted. A very nice pre-war built up Station housing 2 Mosquito Squadrons.

I’m sorry to hear that you have been caught up in the toils of Bob House. [Air Ministry] It’s always been my dread to get posted there. I shouldn’t despair too much about the P.C. [permanent Commission that Arthur had applied for, and was long in coming] They can only push out very limited numbers at a time and your name may well turn up in due course. I can’t think how they can have missed out on an ex-CO of 84 so long anyway…

Well, Gill, when they let you get an aeroplane, fly up to Upwood and have lunch with me and we’ll do a lot of mutual line shooting and beer swilling.

Yours ever Clayton Boyce.

(Note: The cause of Jeudwine's accident isn't clear, but it was on his first day of flying a Typhoon. It seems that he assumed it would loop like a Hurricane, but in fact it needed a lot more clearance, and at the bottom of his loop the aircraft hit the ground, upside down.)

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture497-hawker-typhoon.jpg

Hawker Typhoon 1B 1943

[Danny42C]

NigG (your #398),
..Bother! Just lost my post...Did you really say just "Bother"? Remarkable self-control !

If, as I assume, you were composing on PPRuNepad, you are in good company. Nearly everybody here has been caught at one time or another by the resident malevolent gremlin (and he usually waits till it's 99% complete before doing the dirty on you !)

Remedy: Draft somewhere else (I use Notepad), then copy/paste onto PPRuNepad, invite gremlin to do his worst.

Danny.

PS:
Interesting pics of the early N.African campaign - an old memory stirred, Google turned up for me: "BBC Home 'WW2 People's War' (Archived) this marching song composed by the Army in N.Africa:

♫...'Where do we go from here,
Now that we've got Bardia,
We've captured Buk-Buk,
And we've got Tobruk,
Where do we go from here ?'...♫

Well known tune (but can't recall its name - somebody may).

It refers [Wiki] to the recapture (3rd-5th January, 1941) of the Italian fortress of Bardia (N.Africa) by the 6th Division commanded by Major General Iven (sic) MacKay of the Australian Army. Result: (Casualties and losses):

(Allied)

130 killed
326 wounded[3]

(Italian)

1,703 killed
3,740 wounded
36,000 captured[4]

The victory at Bardia enabled the Allied forces to continue the advance into Libya and ultimately capture almost all of Cyrenaica. In turn this would lead to German intervention in the fighting in North Africa, changing the nature of the war in that theatre. [Wiki]

The Daily Mirror (I think) printed this parody (supposedly written by the retreating Italians):

"Where do we go from here
Now that we've lost Bardia ?
They've conquered Tobruk
And taken Buk-Buk
So where do we go from here ?"

Of course, all this is long ago, and we're all pals now......:ok:

D.

[MPN11]

Interesting detail on the fall of Bardia. So, if 6 Div hadn't done quite so well, the Germans might have left the Italians to get on with it, potentially leading to some very different outcomes in the N Africa campaign!

[NigG]

NigG (your #398),
Did you really say just "Bother"? Remarkable self-control !

If, as I assume, you were composing on PPRuNepad, you are in good company. Nearly everybody here has been caught at one time or another by the resident malevolent gremlin (and he usually waits till it's 99% complete before doing the dirty on you !)

Remedy: Draft somewhere else (I use Notepad), then copy/paste onto PPRuNepad, invite gremlin to do his worst.

HA! Yes I operate with a hierarchy of expletives. It starts with 'Bother!', which gets used for the loss of a paragraph or two. This progresses to 'B****r!' for half a page. Then it all goes Anglo-Saxon, thereon.

The other factor taken into account is the cause of the loss of text. It's usually my fault. On this occasion it was my clicking on 'BBC News', which on my computer sits below the 'New Tab' symbol. So this was a mitigating factor. Thus 'Bother!' instead of the otherwise more appropriate 'B****r!' (Your starter for ten... how many paragraphs did I lose on this occasion?) :sad:

Yes, Danny. If I was more industrious I'd use 'Word' or 'Notepad'!

Moving on, I didn't realise that the Bardia battle was against the Italians. The casualty statistics you quote, are disturbing. If you're Italian. Though I must admit I find it difficult to reconcile Arthur's kind and considerate personality with the number of people who must have died or been injured at his hands. Therein lies the incongruity of modern (remote) warfare, I guess.
Somebody once asked him why he owned a Japanese car. His reply was that he felt he owed it to them.

[NigG]

Interesting detail on the fall of Bardia. So, if 6 Div hadn't done quite so well, the Germans might have left the Italians to get on with it, potentially leading to some very different outcomes in the N Africa campaign!

That's an interesting thought. Of course, a lot of British squadrons got diverted from the Western Desert to the Far East after this battle, weakening our Forces just as the Germans built-up theirs. I suppose the ultimate outcome remained the same... the defeat of the Axis armies in North Africa. But it took a lot more doing, once the Germans became key players. It took longer, required more resources, and resulted in greater losses on both sides. Strange to think that a victory could add to an Army commander's problems.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture498-montgomery-left-wavell-centre-auchinleck-right.jpg

Montgomery, Wavell and Auchinleck

[Union Jack]

A very interesting photograph of three Field Marshals together in New Delhi, NigG, but only two sets of red tabs, one Sam Browne, one cap - and one beret! - between them.....and yes, I know the old story that where two or three army officers are together no two will be wearing the same!

Jack

[Danny42C]

NigG (#403),

I'm not 'up to speed' on the WWII N. African campaigns (being otherwise engaged at the time), but your photograph of the three generals at the end is interesting.

Wavell was the first C-in-C out there. Replaced by Auckinlech in 1941, he didn't do too well and in August 1942, Churchill replaced him with Montgomery. He turned the tables on Rommel at the Second Battle of Alamain in 1943, and effectively ended the Axis threat to Cairo and the Canal once and for all. [mostly Wiki].

Stirring times - it's worth reading the Wiki biograhies of each of the three (for a clear illustration of the "Changing Fortunes of War") - Tolstoy could have made a book of it !

Danny.

PS: What do you think Montgomery has on the upper R. arm sleeve of his jacket ?

D.

[MPN11]

What do you think Montgomery has on the upper R. arm sleeve of his jacket ?
Aguilet [sp] hooks?

All that picture shows is creases!!

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

Ye-ss. Got the magnifying glass out again. What first appeared to me as a white ring on a dark background could well be a crease and shadow.

Noted Montgomery had moved onto black plastic buttons - less work for his batman !

Danny.

[MPN11]

I now quite often find myself using a magnifying glass to look at things on-screen, especially when the modern trend seems to be using 1pt fonts :)

[Wander00]

Cap com - two guys on the right - "Who's that sh1t on the other end?"

[MPN11]

Cap com - two guys on the right - "Who's that sh1t on the other end?"
Naughty! Have two 'Extras' :)

[Wander00]

Sah!.......

[MPN11]

Good man ... double away smartly, and don't do it again.

[olympus]

And only five eyes between the three of them...:sad:

Wavell lost his right eye in WW1.

[NigG]

Wander00

Regarding the occupant of the near end of the seat, I think most would agree that Monty was in some respects his own worst enemy. Though the 14th Army adored him of course. However, let no one be in doubt, 'his' great victory over the Axis in North Africa was made possible only by the Allied air campaign, which made it impossible for Rommel to supply and operate his forces in the open desert. The Martin Baltimore, being one of the aircraft supplied by America, that was highly effective in the Western Desert (provided it had adequate fighter cover). It was the successor to the Blenheim, and as Arthur's previous CO, John Jeudwine, remarked, the Baltimore' was a much better aircraft. He commanded a squadron of them after 84 was lost in the Far East.

http://www.pprune.org/members/457066-nigg-albums-sundry-photos-picture501-640px-martin-30a.jpg



But regarding the occupant at the far end of the seat, if I'm not mistaken, the Herr Chancellor has from somewhere acquired a British Army uniform! :bored: