One approach licence - multiple airports?

[Vortac3]

I have one specific question, counting on an expert answer here:

Can an air traffic controller licensed for one location issue approach clearances for multiple airports in his airspace?

For example, let's take Westchester County Airport, New York (near La Guardia).
AirNav: KHPN - Westchester County Airport (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KHPN)

As stated on that webpage, approach service is provided by New York Approach (120.8). That's one of the La Guardia frequencies. Obviously, that controller in New York Approach should be licensed for La Guardia and has something like "KLGA APP" in his ATC license. Should he also have something like "KHPN APP"? Or KHPN is somehow implied in this case?

[jackieofalltrades]

I know they do in Canada, not sure about the New York TRACON though.
It's been a long time since I've been to TC, so I'm sure someone there could correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Heathrow approach controllers are also licensed for Northolt.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I am not aware that Heathrow controllers' licences state that they are valid for Northolt. Heathrow Approach (at Swanwick) provides initial approach control for Northolt following which aircraft are handed over to Northolt ATC.

[Vortac3]

Yes, I checked UK AIP, it appears Northolt has its own approach. AIP also says: "Northolt Approach, Director and Departures operate from Swanwick".

But what if Northolt didn't have its own approach? Would it be legal for an Heathrow Approach controller to actually say the words "Cleared for ILS approach rwy 25 at Northolt"? If you are issuing such approach clearances for an airport in controlled airspace, must you also have a valid rating for that specific airport? That's what I am trying to find out here.

[jackieofalltrades]

Thanks for clarifying HD. I had thought Heathrow controllers at TC could clear Northolt arrivals to intercept the ILS.

[chevvron]

Er Northolt doesn't have an ILS on both runways. Other approaches are either SRA or PAR carried out by military controllers. I think the PAR is still done from Northolt but SRAs can be done from Swanwick.
Civil controllers at LTCC (London Terminal Control Centre) are often valid on more than one airfield eg Luton plus Stansted. I think London City controllers are often cross trained for Stansted too.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Heathrow controllers can put Northolt traffic on the ILS. Similarly, London Control can put traffic on the Heathrow or Gatwick ILSs. It doesn't mean they have to have anything written in their licences. Also, on easterlies, Heathrow can climb outbounds on certain routes but the controllers don't necessarily have area ratings.

[Vortac3]

Thank you, HD. I understand that London Control can issue headings and vector traffic towards the Heathrow ILS. But can London Control actually say "Cleared for ILS approach rwy 27R" (for example). Even for other airports under London TMA, like Gatwick and Stansted?

[jackieofalltrades]

Er Northolt doesn't have an ILS on both runways.
Nobody has said they did. Just that they do have an ILS.

Heathrow controllers can put Northolt traffic on the ILS.
It's semantics, but does that not then mean as part of the Heathrow licence they are licenced for Northolt too?

Similarly, London Control can put traffic on the Heathrow or Gatwick ILSs. It doesn't mean they have to have anything written in their licences.
I need to re-read my MATS 2. I thought area controllers could only vector towards the ILS but couldn't give the instruction to intercept without explicit co-ordination with the approach controller. Usually only given in rare circumstances.
But I get your point. I once cleared an aircraft to land at Blackpool (through co-ordination!) because it was having radio problems and couldn't switch frequencies. And I don't have a tower licence.

[blissbak]

I'd rather talk about Ratings and not Licence .....
European ATCO Licensing

In Europe, the structure for a harmonised European ATCO licence has been developed to enable the licence qualifications to more closely match the ATC services being provided and to permit the recognition of additional ATC skills associated with the evolution of ATC systems and their related controlling procedures. It has not yet been adopted by all States.
Although the harmonised European ATC licence retains the basic principles of the ICAO licence, new ratings have been introduced. The ICAO Aerodrome Control rating is divided into two, Aerodrome Control Visual (ADV) and Aerodrome Control Instrument (ADI). The ADI rating must have one or more rating endorsements associated with it. The new system removes all references to the equipment associated with ratings such as radar and the ICAO Approach Radar Control and Area Radar Control ratings become respectively the Approach Control Surveillance (APS) and Area Control Surveillance (ACS) ratings. To be valid, both these ratings must include a Radar or ADS endorsement. The Approach Control and Area Control ratings are renamed to become the Approach Control Procedural and the Area Control Procedural ratings to more clearly indicate that no surveillance equipment is used while providing air traffic control services using these ratings. A student ATCO licence has also been introduced to enable NAAs (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/NAA) to regulate persons in training for an ATCO licence. Student ATCOs are prospective ATCOs who have successfully completed an approved Initial Training course and passed any associated assessments or examinations.
Rating Endorsements
Rating Endorsements are endorsements associated with particular ratings to indicate the type of equipment associated with the provision of an ATC service in that rating discipline. For example, the ICAO Approach Radar Control rating becomes the Approach Control Surveillance rating with a Radar endorsement; the endorsement indicating that radar is the surveillance equipment used in providing the ATC service.
Unit Endorsements
Unit endorsements are endorsements associated with specific ratings and rating endorsements which indicate the ATC Unit and the individual sectors, groups of sectors or operational positions where the licence holder provides an ATC service.
Licence Endorsement
Licence endorsements are endorsements associated with the licence, but not with any particular rating or rating endorsement. Currently, the only licence endorsement possible on an ATCO Licence issued under the new European system is the On-the-Job-Training Instructor (OJTI) endorsement.



Once you are rated APP/APS/TCL you are entitled to provide the service to 1 or even more airports if it's your Unit's task .

[Squadgy]

Would it be legal for an Heathrow Approach controller to actually say the words "Cleared for ILS approach rwy 25 at Northolt"

Don't know if this helps, but when I was doing my PPL at Woodford in the late 90's, Manchester Radar would often position traffic to the Woodford ILS, and hand over to Woodford Tower.

The phraseology used by Manchester Radar was 'G-CD, Woodford clears you for the ILS approach Runway 25' - This would suggest that the clearance needs to come from the unit relating to the airfield the approach is been flown in to, and not issued on the volition of the unit being worked without co-ordination.

This is purely based on the above phraseology. I am a FISO and a PPL, so other people will be more qualified to say for sure.

[Whattodo]

Thames controllers can clear an aircraft for an ILS approach for both London City and Biggin Hill airports. This is part of the unit endorsement you receive through training and validation.
They also present Southend traffic 10nm in trail to Souhend Approach and work their departures to the South. This is not an approach service. We can not clear an aircraft for an ILS approach at Southend.
TC controllers with co-ordination can instruct aircraft to establish on a localiser, however they can not clear the aircraft for an ILS approach!
Hope this helps?

[Vortac3]

Thanks for all replies. Well, it's obvious there is no universal, all-encompassing answer here, but I would say it's more leaning towards "yes, it's possible" and that's helpful enough.