Well after 800 hours of TW time I finally bolloxed it up [Archive]

westhawk

24th Apr 2016, 06:16

Sympathies piperboy. As for any required reports, NTSB 830 dictates. What happened in your case may or may not be reportable dependent upon the extent of the damage. See the second paragraph below for what constitutes "substantial damage". I hope you have her flying again soon.

§830.2 Definitions.

As used in this part the following words or phrases are defined as follows:
Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage.

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part.

Flyingmac

24th Apr 2016, 06:47

My sympathies Piperboy. I flew the other half for a nice lunch to celebrate 30 years of accident free flying. Had a similar incident to yours and trashed the prop.
In my case the wooden prop was sacrificed and saved any other damage. Best of luck.

DeltaV

24th Apr 2016, 07:04

My sympathies. I've done that too, not quite the same cause but the same result. Like Flyingmac, mine was a wooden prop so maybe lesser consequences to your situation.

piperboy84

24th Apr 2016, 07:19

Pic of the damage, the van in the pic is the Aircraftspruce van that was picking me up to buy new tyres for the airplane, won't be needing them for a while I guess

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=1EDF911B882D2AC5!3102&authkey=!ABnlSlxhw51TxzA&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=1EDF911B882D2AC5!3102&authkey=!ABnlSlxhw51TxzA&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

27/09

24th Apr 2016, 08:28

Nice set of Q Tips you have there. :E

It doesn't look like a sudden stoppage and you would have been at low power. You might get lucky.

I don't know the exact parameters but you may get away with a runout check on the crankshaft prop flange and, if that's within limits, just a new prop.

n5296s

24th Apr 2016, 08:34

Sorry to hear it. I groundlooped a vintage taildragger a few years back and I must say it removed my enthusiasm for flying vintage aircraft pretty thoroughly. Haven't looked at a Tiger Moth the same way since.

Practically speaking whether it gets reported is largely in the hands of the airport management - if they choose to report it, it's reported. But either way a sudden stoppage requires an engine teardown, which hurts in the wallet and means you're grounded for a while.

piperboy84

24th Apr 2016, 08:38

This is the dirt where it hit, hard to believe it caused so much damage to the prop

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=1EDF911B882D2AC5!3103&authkey=!AB21cZH2NTKNPnM&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

9 lives

24th Apr 2016, 10:51

Sorry you had a bad day Piperboy, But it does not look like too bad a day to me... I am confident that what 27/09 suggests will turn out to be the case.

You'll be buying a new prop, but I think many of us have had to do that :O. Based upon my considerable experience with MT propellers, I suggest you consider theirs, if they have one for your aircraft.

As for your engine, I think you'll be breathing a sigh of relief before long...

And your pride? You're just in a different club with a bunch of us now! Welcome, 'just a bit more humble since!

onetrack

24th Apr 2016, 11:52

Piperboy - Look on the bright side. You might have just started a new trend to "proplets", to reduce prop tip vortices, noise and vibration! :)

Marine Prop with Radial Winglets (http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html)

Pace

24th Apr 2016, 12:28

You have to be more careful with some types other than with other types! Some have very little clearance from the prop tip and the ground which means you have to be more careful over bumpy fields.

Another Gotcha point is leaving a tarmac runway to cross a grass field at an early untested point. There is often a marked hump on the edge points between grass field and runway.

Better to leave at such points column well back and at 45 degrees rather than head on as well as throttled back rather than powered over suspect areas
But you will get over it! Kind of reinforces the point that the landing isn't over until the engine is shut down

Pace

The Ancient Geek

24th Apr 2016, 12:41

Every taildragger is a noseover waiting for an excuse to happen, its just the nature of the beast.

Niner Lima Charlie

24th Apr 2016, 13:25

AD 2004-10-14 and Lycoming MSB 475C require an engine disassembly and some parts be replaced. The bent propeller is considered a major repair (AC 20-37E) and must be done by an approved prop shop. Depending upon age of the prop and their inspection, you might get by with only new blades ($9500) and keep the original hub.

Shaggy Sheep Driver

24th Apr 2016, 14:48

My sympathies. I came very close once in the Chippy taxying downwind in a very strong wind. I had the stick forward so the wind was pushing on the 'down' elevator and pinning the tail down, but the rudder got away from me and was blown hard over. Having a touch of brake on for steering while taxying the full rudder deflection jammed the brake hard on on that side and the tail lifted.

I was considering (for an instant!) whether to pull the stick hard back and whack on the power to blow the tail down when it stopped rising, probably due to the forward stick position, and sat down on the tailwheel again. Nasty lump in the throat when that tail went up!

I once almost ground looped as well, having returned to the Chippy after a few years flying a Yak 52. I turned off the runway still going a bit too fast after the roll-out and instantly felt the tail step out. Full rudder and a hard squeeze of the brake handle stopped the swing almost before it started, but again, a nasty feeling when I felt it 'go'.

I hope your damage is limited to the prop. In UK I think it'd be a shock-load strip down regardless. When our Yak was landed gear up (not by me!) the wooden prop shattered to matchwood as it is designed to do to protect the gearbox and engine. That cut no ice with our 'take no chances' system. It was a full tear down (which, of course, revealed a perfect engine and gearbox).

Piper.Classique

24th Apr 2016, 15:22

Sorry to hear that. Don't beat yourself up about it, stuff happens. That's what we pay the insurance for. Could be a lot worse. Nobody hurt, and the aircraft is repairable.

India Four Two

24th Apr 2016, 18:03

grounded for a while.

It's a good news, bad news situation. He has a spare, but it's over 4000 miles away! ;)

NorthernChappie

25th Apr 2016, 15:11

flybymike

25th Apr 2016, 15:19

Never flown or wanted to fly a tail dragger in my life.
And I know why.
Ok I'm a wimp....

dont overfil

25th Apr 2016, 15:44

Sorry to hear of your misfortune piperboy. These @rsedraggy things always scared me. A bit like a dog with piles. BTW have you ever watched the rudder on rollout? :eek:

As NorthernChappie says don't rush home. 350/30G40 rain,hail, snow and probably ****e coming out of the sky as well in Forfar.

Shaggy Sheep Driver

25th Apr 2016, 16:31

BTW have you ever watched the rudder on rollout?

I'd be interested to know what's behind that question.

piperboy84

25th Apr 2016, 18:00

Aye, and looking down the Vale of Strathmore at this very moment from my office with a view, the spare won't be going anywhere as PB's home pad is being battered by dust storms. They're not visible all the time.....just when the blizzards stop for a wee while.

Commiserations PB.

What ? Is that £10,000 quid an acre Perth and Angus farm topsoil getting blown up to Aberdeenshire again ???

Shrewd buggers those Aberdonians !!

9 lives

25th Apr 2016, 18:00

BTW have you ever watched the rudder on rollout? http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif

Is why we taildragger pilots are just a tiny amount more fit - we exercise our feet on the pedals! Sometimes I will find that during one landing in my taildragger I have used the pedals stop to stop at least once. Last time I hit a rudder stop during a landing rollout in a tricycle was in a Caravan in a gusty 25 knot crosswind.

Shaggy Sheep Driver

25th Apr 2016, 18:33

Ah! I did wonder if it was a reference to the frantic rudder waggling one sometimes sees when a taildragger lands. Well, it shouldn't happen, though one or two large rudder inputs towards the end of the roll out are not unusual.

If the rudder is wanging left and right throughout the roll out like salmon's tail as it leaps over a weir on its way up-river, then that is PIO - over controlling. The pilot is sensing a yaw, over-correcting, then over-correcting the over correction. An experienced taildragger pilot will not do that; rudder inputs will be few and small, with, as I say,perhaps a couple large deflections right at the end of the roll-out when rudder authority has become poor.

NorthernChappie

25th Apr 2016, 21:11

What ? Is that £10,000 quid an acre Perth and Angus farm topsoil getting blown up to Aberdeenshire again ???

Shrewd buggers those Aberdonians !!

Must be the Californian wine. TAF is 350!

piperboy84

25th Apr 2016, 21:17

Must be the Californian wine. TAF is 350!

Even worse, all that quality topsoil getting wasted blowing into boggy Stirlingshire

9 lives

25th Apr 2016, 21:59

We may be drifting PB's thread here, but he's gracious, so perhaps will indulge us a little...

If the rudder is wanging left and right throughout the roll out like salmon's tail as it leaps over a weir on its way up-river, then that is PIO - over controlling.

Yes and no.. The excess or non required movement of a flight control, which results in no or little change in the aircraft path does do two things: It wears the flight control mechanism a minuscule amount, which I think we can tolerate, and, it creates drag. Otherwise as SSD correctly observes, it looks a bit fishy from the sidelines, but is otherwise harmless.

The only "training" I ever had in taildraggers which I felt was meaningful was in a 185, in which my mentor correctly observed that I was freezing on the controls (out of fear - I was!). He instructed me that as the first wheel touched, I was to rhythmically move the pedals so that my feet were not frozen, and application of the required control became a bit more or less of a motion which was happening anyway, rather than not happening, because I had frozen. I found this worked.

I do this less now, as I have seemed to have learned to fly taildragger, but I still apply meaningful, and possibly excessive rudder input during a rollout, as my runway is very narrow (4 feet off the centerline, and I'll be taking out runway lights with a wingtip float). I also find that on uneven surface runways, as the bumps are absorbed left or right, the plane may roll then yaw a little with this motion, and rudder input is required to counteract that. I'm not embarrassed to be seen to wave my rudder like a fish, if it makes my landing very well controlled.

As for a yaw PIO - yes, it can be done. However, by the time it gets to that, there will either be a lot of squealing tires or mud and grass flying around. PIO will indeed be caused by gross overcontrol, but more matter of being too late then too much with the pedals. The pilot sensing yaw, and reacting crisply and moderately to prevent a yaw excursion is less likely to PIO in yaw, as the pilot reactions will be at a rate much faster than the inertia of most planes to swing in yaw.

Excess control movement creates drag, which occasionally is a good thing. Like during landings. That said, I do not suggest waggling the flight controls, on an airplane to slow down - really poor airmanship! However, there is une instance where it is done, and that is in some "stuck pedals" situations in a helicopter, when you would like to descend in a hover without reducing power. You can slop the cyclic control all over, and create drag, and the helicopter will settle with power, without yawing (much). That does work, for the very few times you might ever need to use it in your helicopter.

barit1

25th Apr 2016, 22:34

27/09I don't know the exact parameters but you may get away with a runout check on the crankshaft prop flange and, if that's within limits, just a new prop.

My father was an AT-6 (Texan/Harvard) instructor in WWII. Once he was called upon t retrieve a ship that a student was ferrying - it ran out of gas and daylight about the same time, and landed gear-up in the desert. Bent prop, a few minor dents. They sent a truck w/ crane and techs with tools to put it back on its gear and check the crankshaft, which they did with a dial indicator. Dad was a toolmaker in civilian life so he was familiar with the task. Crank checked OK, they topped off the tanks, hung a new prop, and he ferried the AT-6 back home.

flybymike

25th Apr 2016, 22:50

Sorry to show my ignorance but what is a dial indicator and how does it work?

piperboy84

25th Apr 2016, 23:41

Talked to an engine shop and insurance today, they are obligated to do a full tear down and inspection which is fine by me, the engine shop mentioned I may want to look at "port cleaning" while its apart. Scouring the internet I read where this can give you an extra 5hp per cylinder !! It sounds good but is this just more aviation " tastes great/ less filling" BS?

The Ancient Geek

26th Apr 2016, 00:34

I dont know about your engine but in most cases the ports have a rough finish from the casting process. Motorbike racers go to great effort with special grinding tools to get around any bends and polish the ports to a mirror finish which reduces turbulent flow.
So maybe a good idea to release a few extra horses.
OTOH the gas velocities in a slow turning aero engine will be a lot less than a highly tuned bike engine so maybe......

9 lives

26th Apr 2016, 01:19

A dial indicator is an instrument originally mechanical like a pocket watch, though now more digital, which has a probe projecting from the base. The probe will touch a surface and with rack and pinion gears, cause the pointers on the indicator to indicate distance, often down to .001". So you can clamp the indicator to the engine case with the probe on the crankshaft flange, and turn it. If the crankshaft has been bent, the indicator pointer will indicate a dimension change as it is turned, and you know it is bent. If no "motion" of the indicator pointer is seen, no bend in flange (though a cracked crankshaft is still possible). Lycoming cranks are reputed for being undamaged following a prop strike, when the crank flange "dials okay". PB you will have a quiet smile when you get the report from the engine shop, but the reassurance of the teardown is worth it. This also affords the opportunity for a good cam and lifter inspection, vital for Lycomings. Consider that if any defect is found in the cam or lifters, you would like to pay for new ones while the engine is apart.

If you have a prop which vibrates or won't track, this is a useful check, as the prop may be fine, and the crank flange out. (Though that might be a problem you'd wish you'd not found!)

"Porting" an engine, as described, involves progressively polishing the cast passages in the induction system, in the case of a Lycoming, the cylinder intake ports. This will improve induction airflow. It is considered rather labour intensive though, as it is usually associated with dynomometer tests to measure the effect and outcome. This can mean some re 'n re of the induction parts = cost. The idea is to improve airflow and balance the airflow between each cylinder, so they are equal. If after having it done, you have to change a cylinder, it'll have to be done to the new cylinder to match. There are flow measuring devices which are used to get close, so the airflow characteristics of each cylinder are close to that desired before first installation to the engine. I have been told that making the cylinder induction passage too smooth can have an undesired effect though, as the rough cast surface of the induction ports promotes turbulent airflow (like vortex generators), and keeps the fuel air nicely mixed. The engine shop I worked for offered this, but it was rarely sought.

megan

26th Apr 2016, 01:22

Sorry to show my ignorance but what is a dial indicator and how does it work?

dMNCqZs8-cg

Shaggy Sheep Driver

26th Apr 2016, 09:19

The excess or non required movement of a flight control, which results in no or little change in the aircraft path does do two things: It wears the flight control mechanism a minuscule amount, which I think we can tolerate, and, it creates drag. Otherwise as SSD correctly observes, it looks a bit fishy from the sidelines, but is otherwise harmless.

It isn't 'harmful' per se, but it indicates a pilot who is not yet on top of yaw control in the roll out.

The same effect can be noted sometimes in elevator / aileron stirring on approach by some pilots, the 'stirring' being quite marked and far too rapid for the aeroplane to fully follow the control inputs before they are countermanded by the subsequent control input. I've been with some pilots who I'd say 'are a good pair of hands' and land just fine, despite doing this! I prefer to see few, definite, accurate, and smooth control inputs from a pilot to all flight controls than 'porridge stirring', even if the 'porridge stirrer' still controls the aeroplane OK!

Unusual Attitude

26th Apr 2016, 14:24

! I prefer to see few, definite, accurate, and smooth control inputs from a pilot to all flight controls than 'porridge stirring', even if the 'porridge stirrer' still controls the aeroplane OK!

You've never flown a Cassutt have you :E

Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle.......

PS Sorry to hear of your incident Piperboy....guess with the type of flying you do on a regular basis its rather inevitable you might have a minor prang at some point!

Shaggy Sheep Driver

26th Apr 2016, 15:34

I think you have to be a vertically challenged racing snake to fit into a Cassutt, don't you? :ooh:

So.. No, I haven't.

Jetblu

26th Apr 2016, 15:44

Sorry to hear this Piperboy. It happens to us all sooner or later.

Good luck with the repair.

Geosync

26th Apr 2016, 16:04

Don't sweat it, being in claims, I've seen 10,000+ hour pilots make mistakes like not lowering the landing gear. I've seen guys give too much power on run up in a tailwheel and nose right on over, destroying the prop. Jet jokeys that don't do a walk around and power up, sucking whatever was sitting on the wing right through the engine. $hit happens to the best of them, and yes, insurance will cover the teardown inspection and prop. There will be "betterment" though, since you'll get a 0 time propeller after the mandiatory overhaul. But your claims adjuster will explain all of this to you.

piperboy84

26th Apr 2016, 16:30

Sorry to hear this Piperboy. It happens to us all sooner or later.

Good luck with the repair.

Thanks JetBlu, it's not so much that it happened, but how it happened. The girlfriend asked me how serious the accident was, I don't want to get into the technicalities of a tail dragger CG, prop strike and engine tear downs so using a driving analogy I had to admit the incident was less spinning out at turn 3 at the Daytona 500 and more backing into a shopping cart in Tesco's car park but with the same level of repair needed. Her response of "Oh, I see" after a few seconds silence telegraphed to me she was actually thinking something along the lines of "So basically the same thing you did to my new Golf while out Xmas shopping you prat". Maybe not, but I just got that feeling.

The Ancient Geek

26th Apr 2016, 19:51

So basically you are saying it was a branefart.
Happens to us all, especially as we get older.

300hrWannaB

26th Apr 2016, 21:01

Love the analogy Piperboy. All you forgot to say was that aircraft repairs are 5 times that for cars. Suggest that you keep mum on that one.

Pedalling across a broad spectrum of available movement isn't the same as Pilot Induced Oscillation. A tough and gusting wing from one side may mean that you end up giving full range movement one side, then to centre, then to the same side. It's not the same as LRLRL.

27/09

27th Apr 2016, 03:02

Shaggy Sheep Driver: I've been with some pilots who I'd say 'are a good pair of hands' and land just fine, despite doing this! I prefer to see few, definite, accurate, and smooth control inputs from a pilot to all flight controls than 'porridge stirring', even if the 'porridge stirrer' still controls the aeroplane OK!

I fly with CPL's regularly who do as you describe, "stir the porridge". Even in dead calm conditions. I can't figure out why they do it, they certainly make life hard for themselves.

Silvaire1

27th Apr 2016, 04:11

I happened to be at KAJO today and saw your plane sitting on the ramp. A friend and I cast a glance over to the bright yellow Maule with a certain measure of sadness, but with hope for a better day. I did the same thing once and know the feeling. In the end it gets fixed and I guess you learn from the experience.

DeltaV

27th Apr 2016, 05:16

I fly with CPL's regularly who do as you describe, "stir the porridge". Even in dead calm conditions. I can't figure out why they do it, they certainly make life hard for themselves.
IIRC Wolfgang Langeweische in Stick and Rudder talks about it and calls it 'hefting'. Explains why too.

Romeo Tango

27th Apr 2016, 09:00

There but for the grace of god ......

n5296s

27th Apr 2016, 09:40

All you forgot to say was that aircraft repairs are 5 times that for cars
Can you put me in touch with your shop? I'd love to get a deal as good as that...

piperboy84

28th Apr 2016, 07:12

Looking at my prop replacement options, I could switch the knackered Hartzell CSP with 76" blades with the same model, or I talked to MT props who have an 80" they say will be smoother, less vibration, removes the RPM restriction between 2150 and 2250RPM, better static rpm and better climb, but slower top speed. There is no Faa approval for the prop on my plane but MT say they have a guy who for $1500 can get a field approval.

Any thoughts

Flyingmac

28th Apr 2016, 07:20

Go for it. You'll only chew over it forever if you don't.:= If top speed were that important, you'd be flying something else.

Maoraigh1

28th Apr 2016, 21:38

Are you happy with the reduce ground clearance, with the sort of places you go?

27/09

28th Apr 2016, 22:20

You need to answer these questions.

Will 2 inches less ground clearance be a problem?
How much does the rate of climb increase and do you need it?
How much slower in the cruise and can you accept that?

Then if you're still interested you need to talk to as many pilots as possible who have made the swap to MT. Preferably those that have plenty of experience with the MT prop.

You need to find out from them things like;

What it's like to get the prop serviced, who can do it, what does it cost etc.
What is the prop like in the rain, does the rain cause erosion?
How does the prop handle stone damage?
Would they do it again or would they have stayed with the original?

piperboy84

29th Apr 2016, 08:08

The plot thickens !

Had a chin wag with the adjuster today and as Geosynch suggested in his post above its all gonna work out fine, engine tear down for inspection, new prop with a 10% copay by me for betterment etc. Then he asked for my license, aircraft logs , medical and BFR. I thought to myself it's been a while since I'd done a BFR but could not remember just how long till I looked at my logbook and realised it had been 2 years and 2 months. Panic set in till I talked with my CFI friend who explained the Commercial check ride I passed with him in 2014 was a legal substitute for a BFR.

Feeling a tad relieved I gave all he docs to the adjuster, who then said the strangest thing

" don't get greedy and ask for a King Air"

I asked him what he meant and he said the last prop strike he handled was a guy in a Cessna 185 who demanded that he be allowed on the insurance companies dime to rent his mates Texan T6 as an equivalent replacement as it was somewhat a like for like aircraft while his 185 was getting fixed. The insurance company were furious but allowed the T6 rental as they did not want the hassle of fighting the guy who was adamant that is what he wanted.

I asked the adjuster why this was relevant to my situation and he informed me that (completely unknown to me ) my policy allowed for a replacement rental aircraft not to exceed $1000 a day up to $10,000 not including fuel, engine reserve and oil costs !

With the above in mind I would like to start a competition with 1st prize going to the person who can think of a model of aircraft available for rental that meets the following criteria:

* Flies, looks or could argueably be deemed similar to a Maule (no matter how remotely)
* Turbo'd and injected up the ying yang and with a whole bunch of ponies up front.
* Fast as f&@k and climbs like a lovesick mountain goat.
* Flash appearance and enough ramp appeal to afford an old, fat and balding pilot a realistic chance of pulling a tidy young bird.

Usual competition terms and conditions apply with the winning entrant receiving a selfie of me with the young bird, sitting left seat in the fancy plane giving a thumbs up sign. :ok:

The Ancient Geek

29th Apr 2016, 10:08

Obviously some people are going to take the piddle whn dealing with the insurance company but IMHO a replacement hire only needs to be able to handle the task at hand on a specific day so if you were expecting to visit a hard strip of decent lenth there is nothing wrong with a 182 which you should be able to hire easily just about anywhere.
Finding a hire for a trip where you really need the abilities of the Maule is, of course, a more difficult question and there are no easy answers.

Sam Rutherford

29th Apr 2016, 17:46

I got very close a couple of times with my MX7, they can be tricky!

Cessna Ttx? :-)

Jetblu

29th Apr 2016, 19:52

How about the Aviat Husky from Aerodynamic Aviation, San Jose.

The Turbo Arrow could fill yur boots too if you can handle a hot bird ;-)

India Four Two

30th Apr 2016, 05:38

I suggest a Cirrus. I know it is nothing like a Maule, but then a T-6 is nothing like a 185!

This one comes with its own "hot bird", but I think you might need to talk to Brad Pitt ;)

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftonetcarlo.files.wordpress.com%2F2007%2F05%2 Faj-into-cirrus.jpg%3Fw%3D500&f=1

27/09

5th May 2016, 02:34

piperboy84

5th May 2016, 05:19

What prop did you decide to go with?
Working on getting some help picking the right one with one of the guys on here (PD). In the meantime I've been round the block a few times taking with the folks at Hartzell and MT. The. Issues are as follows:

The only FAA approved prop for the plane is the one that's on it now the bog standard Hartzell CSP 76"

I have look at the new Hartzell Trailblazer 80" composite 2 blade.
Pros: Its getting rave reviews from Husky and Scout pilots
It's a lot lighter than the current 76" metal prop
Cons : it's certified for every friggin bush plane except the Maule and the guy at Hatzell said he's not sure if and when they plan on doing the Maule thrust, noise and other tests to get it certified.

MT 2 Blade Composite 80"
Pros: 20 Lbs lighter
Replaceable nickel plated leading edge
Field repairable for small nicks and chips
Straight swap out with no need to change existing governor or hub, just spinner
Supposedly better static thrust, shorter take off , better climb and slight increase in cruise.
Factory offer money back guarantee
Rave reviews from both certified and non certified aircraft owners.
Removes the RPM restriction between 2100 and 2250
Never been an AD on an MT prop
Open ended service life and no TBO
Comparable to Hatzell composite 2 blade above.
Cons: Only approved for Maules in Europe not US, but MT claim they can get FAA field approval in 6 weeks and for a cost of $1500.00!

MT 3 Blade composite 203cm

Pros : All of the above as per MT 2 blade except slower cruise
Ramp appeal, looks cool, one sexy looking MF.
Supposedly gives turbine like smoothness

Cons : As per 2 blade plus more money.

I talked to Maule and asked why they have one of there airplanes on there website, brochure and sales material with an 3 blade MT prop if it's not certified for that plane and they said they just stuck it on to test with and it looked cool, made a video of the flight and took it back off again.

Jury still out !

Silvaire1

5th May 2016, 14:58

Never been an AD on an MT prop

Funny then that the US MT people did an AD search for mine while quoting my overhaul, by model and serial number, while I held on the phone. ;) There was no AD on mine but there was a 'mandatory' change to the hub to incorporate different seals. Apparently the new seals don't throw grease as badly as the traditonal MT seals, and my experience has confirmed that - very little grease thrown compared to the original seals.

I'm not a great fan of my MT prop. It works OK but it's just a wood prop with a bit of fiberglass on top. That glass is very thin so it doesn't fly off under centrifugal loads, and it tends to crack near the hub letting water get to the wood. The blades are held into the hub with lag screws into the end grain, which is a very old fashioned technique. Mine has the crudely formed stainless steel leading edge protection and I remove corrosion with Scotchbrite after every flight. It's true that the the blades can be reworked many times, but they tend to need that attention in my experience. It's a bit of a delicate device.

27/09

5th May 2016, 23:16

Certainly some compelling reasons to look closely at the MT option.

The only words of caution I would give are;

Ensure you're comparing apple with apples.
How many of the enthusiastic reviews are very recent owners without the benefit of a few years operations.
Very often it's not what's said in the marketing info but rather what's left unsaid that really matters.

It sounds very like to me the mandatory hub replacement Silvaire mentions is an AD by another name.

You say no TBO, but in reality what life are owners getting from the blades?

I know there will be regional variations but I've heard murmurings about lack of suitably factory qualified people to to work on the MT props. This may be just my part of the world.

Geordie_Expat

12th May 2016, 14:16

I think you have to be a vertically challenged racing snake to fit into a Cassutt, don't you? :ooh:

So.. No, I haven't.

Only just seen this thread so late contribution, but, knowing UA rather well, that description couldn't be further from the truth !!!!

Big Pistons Forever

12th May 2016, 14:58

Buy the cheapest option. The Maule is already a pretty good performer. Why pay more to get a few percentage increase in performance that you are highly unlikely ever to use ?

Sam Rutherford

13th May 2016, 07:05

I agree, you get a lot of plane for your money with a Maule.

I did 500 hours in mine, in 5 years - often two adults and two kids, plus luggage...

Cheers, Sam.

piperboy84

19th May 2016, 03:54

Went down to the engine shop that's doing the tear down and inspection. The engine was just being put on a stand after being removed from the plane just as I arrived. The boss of the engine shop suggested that if I had a spare hour or so I could watch them take it apart. I couldn't believe they had it completley disassembled in about 90 minutes.

I asked him what are the top reasons engines come to him prior to reaching TBO. He gave 2 reasons:

1. Lack of use, and lack of use where the owner thinks starting and running it on the ground is doing good when in fact the opposite is true, it accelerates water corrosion damage to the engine.
2. Cooking the engine, an example he gave is not returning the engine to idle after run up and instead leaving it running at 14 or 1500rpm while you faff around copying your IFR clearance then taxi up to the hold short as number 3 and have to wait, all the while at higher rpm than idle and on a hot day.

He showed me a Lycoming 360 that came in for overhaul that had 4000 hours put on it in the last 5 years. The engine was in excellent condition and within factory tolerances, he also pointed out another engine that he had just taken out of service it had a stamp on the side that said "46" which to my amazement he pointed out meant it was made in 1946 !!

He also said he's had quite a few owners bring their planes to him with low compression on one cylinder and enquire about prices to replace the cylinder or even a complete overhaul before TBO , he suggested that prior to taking it apart they put a cap of some type of engine cleaning product, I can't remember the brand, in each cylinder, a quart in with the oil and a 2% mixture in with the fuel and take it for a 5 hour flight and this normally cleans out the cylinders and rings and returns the cylinder to an acceptable compression. Pretty cheap solution to what appeared to be a major problem.

Quite interesting stuff,

27/09

19th May 2016, 22:37

Have you made a decision on your prop yet?

londonblue

20th May 2016, 11:11

piperboy84:

2. Cooking the engine, an example he gave is not returning the engine to idle after run up and instead leaving it running at 14 or 1500rpm while you faff around copying your IFR clearance then taxi up to the hold short as number 3 and have to wait, all the while at higher rpm than idle and on a hot day.

I was always taught to keep the engine at 1200rpm. Are you saying even that is too high?

piperboy84

20th May 2016, 12:14

I guess it depends on what your particular engine idle speed is, for most 4 banger Lycomings it's around 1000 RPM

flybymike

20th May 2016, 13:18

1200 for me too. The local engineers used to reckon the plugs fouled up at 1000 or less.

piperboy84

20th May 2016, 14:14

1200 for me too. The local engineers used to reckon the plugs fouled up at 1000 or less.

Shouldn't foul up if leaned while on the ground

flybymike

20th May 2016, 15:19

Agreed. Just need to get everyone else to do it as well!

piperboy84

22nd Jun 2016, 22:02

My shiny new MTV-9-B/200-52 78.8" three blade composite prop, Kevlar spinner, nickel leading edges is on the truck from Wisconsin to California to be put on the inspected and port polished engine.

Insurance is paying for about 90% of the prop. And the AI reckons he'll have the field approval paperwork done in 2 weeks.

Sam Rutherford

23rd Jun 2016, 07:07

Every cloud has a silver lining!

piperboy84

9th Sep 2016, 19:07

Santa Monica Tower said I was making them dizzy
wr6o8xaPG7A

Sam Rutherford

10th Sep 2016, 07:03

Brilliant - great effect!

piperboy84

15th Oct 2016, 11:32

Getting to the end of my tether with the engine issue on the Los Angeles based Maule. Here is a recap. 2007 aircraft ( Lycoming 360 )with 275 hours since new. Had a prop strike earlier this year where the prop hit the dirt while taxiing at idle. Insurance covered a complete tear down and inspection which showed the engine was fine, during the rebuild I changed the 2 blade Hartzell out for a 3 blade MT. Picked the plane up from the shop, upon getting it back to the home field I taxi for about 2 minutes then do a mag check. The number one cylinder on the right mag (bottom plug) temperature on the EGT gauge drops off the bottom of the scale, I lose 3 to 4 hundred rpm and the engine farts and pops. While 2,3 & 4 rise as normal, I power up to 2300 rpm and aggressively lean then return back to 2000rpm for a mag check and it clears.

After each and every short taxi whether before or after a flight the #1 cylinder/plug fouls up and takes aggressive leaning to clear ( I always lean for taxi) . I take it to an on-field repair shop who remove, rotate, test and gap the plugs but the problem stays with the cylinder and mag (#1 on the bottom). I taxi out and it’s the same **** all over again, while flying at cruise rpm I notice the #1 cylinder is consistently hotter than the others by about 120 degrees while this is not excessive it is consistently the #1 that runs hotter, I would have thought it being on the front it would have perhaps been the same or even cooler than 3 or 4 on the back. A mag check while cruising shows everything is running within tolerance and smoothly. Over the next 25 hours I use twice the normal oil consumption compared to pre prop strike.

I go back to the engine shop and they say it just needs a bit more running in, I request a compression check and get 70,70,74,76 which again is within tolerance but prior to the teardown I was getting between 74 to 76 across the board. I chalk the 70’s up to the rings settling in and hope for better numbers. They bore scope the #1 and can see the cross hatch from the honing clearly and no glazing. They suggest we adjust the mixture and test and adjust the mags, upon flying and landing I get the same old ****. I return it to the shop and tell them that after 25 hours of flight the cylinder and rings should have settled in so they agree to remove it and do a light re-hone and new rings on number 1. They advised I takeoff and hold at full power for an hour flight, after landing at the home field and taxiing I get the exact same problem again.

I’m tired of going back to the engine shop and having the local field mechanic change or rotate the fouled plug and have to decide what to do next. My choices:

1. Live with it and spend 2 or 3 minutes aggressively leaning each run-up with the plane farting and popping and shaking and excessive oil consumption.

2. Write to the insurer and tell them after 3 months, 30 hours of flight time and 4 visits back to mechanics and a cylinder re-honing of #1 ( in addition to the re-honing of all 4 at the initial teardown) I want a complete new engine as this could be a dangerous situation and is unacceptable.

3. Jump of Santa Monica Pier or take up lawn bowling as a hobby.

Any thoughts?

alex90

15th Oct 2016, 13:43

Personally I'd take it to the shop and tell them that I'm not leaving until this issue is FULLY fixed. Tell them that the next time they say the plane is fixed, you'll force the head mechanic to come with you on the flight and if **** hits the fan its not just your life in the balance!

This issue sounds to me like something is just waiting to go seriously wrong.

But then again - the prospect of lawn bowling is somewhat appealing after the stresses involved in getting this fixed! :hmm:

pulse1

15th Oct 2016, 15:01

I don't see any reference to checking the timing on the right mag. I mention this, not as any kind of expert, but because a friend of mine had a similar problem on his Cardinal. In his case it was both mags and the engine would only run smoothly with the mixture leaned. His original engineers could not find anything wrong so he went to a second shop where they found that the timing was out on both mags.

India Four Two

15th Oct 2016, 17:22

pb84,

Sorry to hear you are still having problems with your "little yellow airplane". When the engine was rebuilt, were any parts replaced?

I've forwarded your "cri de coeur" to the tow pilots in my gliding club, who collectively have thousands of hours behind O-360s. I'll let you know if I get any useful replies.

Concerning your third choice, I can't see you fitting in at a lawn bowling club. I think the pier option is better, but given its historic location, you should do it James Dean style, in a Porsche! ;)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/IMG_1414%20SMO%20pier_zpse39q8pze.jpg

27/09

15th Oct 2016, 19:38

Is the plug fouled with lead deposit or oil?

Has the oil consumption returned to normal?

I'd be suspicious about the spark on that plug, timing has been mentioned but I'd have to ask why there's no issue with the other cylinder (no. 3?) on that side. Is it possible the plug lead is faulty giving a weak spark?

Keep at them, it's their job to fix it. I'm not sure how the insurance company will see their role in this. That may depend on the broker and or theloss adjustor involved.

At some point a fresh set of eyes may be the best option. Some mechanics become fixated on what they think the problem is and ignore other possibilities.

India Four Two

16th Oct 2016, 04:52

pb84,

Some thoughts from my club's Chief Towpilot:

Boy it sure does sound like his oil ring is not doing the job based on his fouled lower plug and oil use.

The confusion is the hotter EGT on number 1 in flight. The EGT wouldn't be related the cylinder position but rather a leaner mixture on that cyl. There may be no relation with the two symptoms.

Question then. Why did they hone the cylinder in the first place? Did they hone all four and replace the rings on all four? So it was an top overhaul not a tear down inspection?

Are the cylinder serial numbers the same as they took off? Did #1 get a new different cylinder. May a cerminil or Chrome cylinder by mistake? If it was run in low, full throttle, and so forth then 25 hrs shd have the rings seated. I had a glazed cyl with the same symptoms but a good honing fixed it.

Sorry can't be of more help.

piperboy84

16th Oct 2016, 05:43

Now I'm totally confused, the symptoms have changed since yesterday, the oil consumption from yesterdays flight has not moved much on the dipstick so perhaps the honing of cylinder number 1 has fixed that problem, but now the rough running has switched from the right mag (bottom plug) to the left mag (top plug) but still on cylinder number one and the engine is running rougher than ever to the point I can no longer clear the roughness on #1 to be able to fly( remember it runs fine at high RPM) Is it possible it is sucking in excess fuel from a fault in the primer line that is only noticeable as a flood at low RPM? Another new thing I noticed is prior to today the engine sounded ok during run up till I switched to the right mag, however now it runs like **** on both mags and the RPM gauge jumps around.

Here is a vid of my run up, the taxi part lasts from about 1 minute in thru to about 3:00 which you may want to skip to get to the run up part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fKr1kQuvk4

27/09

16th Oct 2016, 09:47

Check the plug for broken porcelain and or swap for a known good one.

Also don't get confused about which mag is providing the spark when you select left and right especially if you fly aircraft with separate mag switches for each mag as well.

john ball

18th Oct 2016, 14:30

two random thoughts:-

Have the plugs been dropped on the floor ? have you tested them ?

Is to oil control ring in upside down - is it possible to fit that way?

India Four Two

18th Oct 2016, 19:53

Have you checked the intake manifold for Number 1 for leaks or blockages?

7AC

22nd Dec 2016, 14:42

Piperboy, did you ever get your engine problem sorted?

piperboy84

22nd Dec 2016, 15:22

Piperboy, did you ever get your engine problem sorted?

Nope ! after 3 months in LA and multiple shop visits I ran out of time to get the wings off, containerized and shipped back to Scotland. No matter what I kept getting the 1 cylinder bottom plug oiled up when at low RPM. The last time I was at the engine shop we came to a deal (with the insurance agent on board) that I would run a fine wire plug in the bottom of Cyl. 1 for 8 hours and see if this higher burning plug finally "broke in" the cylinder and the foiling stopped. I wasn't optimistic but its a warranty type deal so I indulged them with the understanding that if after the 8 hours I had the same problem they'd put a new cylinder on. I ran it for 8 hours and it ran fine no roughness during run up etc, then put a new factory recommended Champion plug back in the problem came back, so all I had really done with the hotter burning plug was mask the problem I guess (treating the symptom not the cause). So when I head back to LA after new year its back in the shop for a new Cylinder. To be honest I wish I'd never had the damn thing inspected from the prop strike, I should have just pulled the old prop off and stuck a new one on myself, the shop tearing the 270 hours SNEW engine apart for inspection has created more problems than it solved.

I'm actually having second thoughts about having it shipped over now with all the hassle and instead just leave it in LA as there's a cracking old C180 for sale this side of the pond that I'm sorely tempted to go look at. I sure do miss my Scottish based Maule, kick myself everyday for crashing it.
Want to get up to more of this https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0IJtdOXmGoEIum

piperboy84

18th Apr 2017, 09:56

Well the Maule is now out in the Atlantic Ocean, fortunately not as a result of another episode of my dubious airmanship but instead under the watchful eye of the captain of the Houston Express freighter. If it can handle me flying it from LA to Florida and one full week of every flight cadet and bored lawyer/wannabe bush pilot climbing into it to try it on for size at the Maule stand at Sun n' Fun I'm sure it'll handle the crossing and unloading at Grangemouth just fine.

Full steam ahead skipper! Im like a kid waiting for xmas

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:143590/mmsi:211744000/imo:9294991/vessel:HOUSTON_EXPRESS

2101