Is the F-35A a 2nd generation F-117?

[Channel 2]

In many ways, the F-35A is a second generation F-117, no? Think about it. The F-35A is optimized for night operations, and everything about it screams, ‘nocturnal predator.’ It’s sensors, sensor fusion, communication and computing power, avionics and helmet make the F-35A a relentlessly effective and lethal hunter at night. Speculating here, but Northrop Grumman might have found a way to “pack hunt” three or four AN/APG-81’s in such a way that individual aircraft cannot be located or targeted, so having a hot nose may not be a liability, at night.

The F-35A’s miserable maneuverability and indifferent handling qualities—they don’t call it, 'the little turd’ for nothing—are sufficient for an aircraft that operates at night. Both aircraft have two (2) internal bays, of similar volume and dimension that carry the same basic ordnance. Plus, the F-35A bays are a little larger, giving it internal AA capability, exactly what a 2nd gen. F-117 needed. The F-35A also has external hard-points, another addition that the F-117 needed, and the range and combat radius of the F-35A is a little better than the F-117, so another limitation has been made a little better.

The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, (March 24, 1999 to June 10, 1999) might be key. Everything that the F-117 needed to do, but couldn’t do in that campaign has been addressed with the F-35A.

The F-35A can't turn, climb or run, but none of that really matters at night. At night doesn't the F-35 hold ALL the cards?

[AutoBit]

Again!!?? Really!!??

Channel all you have done since joining this forum is slag off F35. What started out as an amusing hypothetical question on your last thread, rapidly degenerated into an F35 slagging match.

To repeat what others have already said. If you're after a good shouting match against F35 then there is a thread already set up for that.

Finally. No F35 is not another F117….and frankly if it needs explaining why, you shouldn't be here.

[Channel 2]

It's always interesting to note when the ad hominem and other logical fallacy attacks start happening. It's how I know I have the winning, indisputable position. In this case it was the first reply.

Thank you, Autobit, for the compliment.

[AutoBit]

'The F-35A can't turn, climb or run, but none of that really matters at night.'

Aside from a whole raft of other inaccuracies in your numerous posts, that one comment alone about sums up my final comment, and makes a mockery of your claim to an 'indisputable position'.

Feel free to reply if you must, but it seems almost pointless to have a discussion with someone who clearly doesn't understand aerial warfare, and is simply hellbent on starting arguments. I think the traditional name of that is 'troll'.

[Channel 2]

You might want to sit this one out, Autobit. Apparently you have nothing substantive to say, an ad hominen, "you're a troll" attack being the only thing you can type.

In the meantime, try some reading: http://aviationweek.com/site-files/a...0Maneuvers.pdf (http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/uploads/2015/06/F-35%20High%20AoA%20Maneuvers.pdf)

The F-35A can't turn, climb or run. Those are the facts. Unpleasant facts, but the facts nonetheless. They don’t call it, 'the little turd’ for nothing.

The F-35A will operate mostly at night: because it was designed to excel at night, and because it has to to survive.

[AutoBit]

Thats what, the 3rd time you've posted that link? And as was described to you by numerous people its absolutely not representative of F35 FOC.

You post the same links, come up with the same discredited arguments, and yet you continue to post….hence I stand by all of my comments.

And for the record I have never heard it called the name you claim so many people refer to it by, and I refuse to use it.

And on that note I'm out, and will leave this either to the Mods or to others who you have already clashed with.

[stilton]

It's also so bloody loud all you need is a microphone to detect it.


How stealthy is that ?

[muppetofthenorth]

So what if it is?

[KenV]

It's also so bloody loud all you need is a microphone to detect it.
How stealthy is that ? Yup.

And the Russians, Chinese, and even ISIS have all sorts of anti-air weapons that use sound to target and shoot down aircraft.

O wait.........

[MPN11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_mirror

:)

[MSOCS]

Not accurate then!

[Courtney Mil]

Channel 2, could you cool it down a little, please? We get people here taking an aggressive approach quite a lot and we live with it, but you are being a bit too belligerent even for this forum.

Remember, it will make no difference to the real world if you make a point or even win an argument about anything here and you are unlikely to change any opinions. So discussion for enlightenment and entertainment is probably the best we can hope for.

Autobit's response to you was by no means "ad hominem" so don't bother trying to play the victim. He simply stated exactly what you have done in the very short time you've been posting here.

Please turn it down a notch or two.

[Lonewolf_50]

In many ways, the F-35A is a second generation F-117, no? No. Speculating hereNoted. The F-35A’s miserable maneuverability and indifferent handling qualities—they don’t call it, 'the little turd’ for nothing—are sufficient for an aircraft that operates at night. We've yet to see it in a shooting war, so a lot of it's projected capability remains ... unproven. The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, (March 24, 1999 to June 10, 1999) might be key. Everything that the F-117 needed to do, but couldn’t do in that campaign has been addressed with the F-35A. It's a little more complicated than that, given that the B-2 has been IOC for quite a while but wasn't used in that op. The F-35A can't turn, climb or run, but none of that really matters at night. At night doesn't the F-35 hold ALL the cards? Is this speculation? A rhetorical question? A deliberate piece of flame bait?

As noted before, the F-35 thread is over there. -----------------> Please join in the scrum if you are so inclined.

[Channel 2]

Roger. Will do. Hope everyone else does the very same thing...

[Turbine D]

Channel 2
Hope everyone else does the very same thing...
We have been since August 2010...

[TEEEJ]

Lonewolf wrote

It's a little more complicated than that, given that the B-2 has been IOC for quite a while but wasn't used in that op.

The B-2 was used over Yugoslavia. It was a B-2 that bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/AboutUs/AnalysisCenter/Documents/pdfs/B-2A-Spirit-Kosovo-and-Beyond.pdf

The Serbs even claimed to have shot one down!

Lt. Col. Djordje Anicic, of the 250th Missile Brigade still thinks that he shot down B-2 Spirit of Missouri, serial 88-0329, and that it crashed and was covered up by NATO.

Lt. Col. Djordje Anicic in interview.

Of course Spirit of Missouri is still operational and the only B-2 lost (Spirit of Kansas) was due to a crash in Guam.

See 2:30 for the claim (with subtitles)

3Qi1z4vh79A&feature=related

[NITRO104]

What started out as an amusing hypothetical question on your last thread, rapidly degenerated into an F35 slagging match.
Well, to be honest, it takes two to tango.
The amount of baseless fame built around the program is simply astounding and terrible gaffes (blatant lying) in the past, make the JPO a rather disputable source, so ppl will occasionally react in this manner.

Franky, I'm surprised the uproar isn't even stronger, but I suppose that can be thanked to heavy policing of the matter.

Just sayin'...

[Lonewolf_50]

The B-2 was used over Yugoslavia. It was a B-2 that bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/AboutUs/AnalysisCenter/Documents/pdfs/B-2A-Spirit-Kosovo-and-Beyond.pdf

The Serbs even claimed to have shot one down!
Whoops, both for me :O and that fella from the 250th.

[Duchess_Driver]

The F-35A can't turn, climb or run.

I thought the whole point of the current generation of fighter was that the whole integrated avionics/sensor/weapons/AWACS datalink package meant that the threat was dealt with at a much greater range and therefore the need to turn,climb or run was much reduced.

"Just Sayin'!" ( and no, no fast jet experience!!)

[Courtney Mil]

Duchess, there is more to energy manoeuvrability than just performing well in a turning fight. For missiles it's called energy at launch and it makes a huge difference to the reach (and Pk) of your outgoing shot. The ability to turn hard at long range, maintain energy in that turn and accelerate has an equally important, detrimental effect on the incoming missile.

Stealth is good, but EM is still a massive factor.

[NITRO104]

I thought the whole point of the current generation of fighter was that the whole integrated avionics/sensor/weapons/AWACS datalink package meant that the threat was dealt with at a much greater range and therefore the need to turn,climb or run was much reduced.
You're right of course, but it's not as simple as commonly portrayed.
As we talk, USAF develops the CONOPS to maximize JSF's advantages over a hypothetical opposition as shown in this article (http://www.sldinfo.com/lt-col-raja-chari-talks-about-the-way-ahead-with-the-f-35-the-renorming-of-airpower-seen-from-edwards/), where Lt. Col. Raja Chari gives a few insights on the matter;

Question: There is an evolution of the tactics coming from places like Yuma and Nellis as they start to learn fifth generation combat F-35 style.
How does that feed in to your efforts?
Answer: The OT squadron here is a clear player in that domain and we work together closely and feedback goes both ways.
But the tactics OT is developing are very different.
We are likely not going to do visual formations with the F-35 tactically; you are operating over multiple tens of miles and flying distributed ops where you can have completely different functions or tasks being performed by those aircraft within the same four-ship.
You are essentially spreading out the geometry of air combat.
You are not simply operating in or patrolling a lane but operating a much wider variable geometry.
Now, the tactic he's talking about here is similar to what F22s employ, but with one major difference...the F35 doesn't have F22's flight performance.
So, maximizing stealth and SA advantage by spreading the formation is great, but you also must have performance to be able to put yourself into required position (react) once the situation develops.
Also note that JSF isn't invisible and it's likely that a peer opposition is gonna be able to see it but not track it, so flight performance again plays an important role if the enemy decides to press the points on your already scattered formation.

There's a reason why virtually every military service (well, except ICBM subs, I suppose) operate in numbers and while F22 can afford to spread, since it can contract fast enough to meet most oncoming threats, the F35 isn't in the same position and while its LO/SA does offer significant advantages, blanket unquantified statements like this don't really help the matter since they don't address the complete picture.

[Duchess_Driver]

Told you I wasn't a fighter pilot! 👍