renewing Istrument rating

[macflea]

greeting guys ,


I would like to ask your opinion on the most cost effective way to renew a valid easa Cpl license with an expired single engine piston rating and an expired instrument rating.

my understanding is I have to do sep rating on a single engine and pass a skills test to Cpl standard for the sep rating . including full cross country .

then do a multiengine rating and then an multi engine instrument rating and full skills tests for both.

I assume hours to be decided by the flight school.

its almost the same as starting from scratch again OR

do the Instrument Rating and skills test and then multi engine skill test.

would I get any credits towards the cpl sep rating?
would the ir airways flying give any credits for the Cpl cross country nav.



I would be interested in hearing your ideas .

thanks

[Level Attitude]

macflea,

I am afraid I don't really know what you are asking. You start by asking about Renewing SEP and SE(?)-IR but then go on to ask about Initial Issue of MEP and ME-IR.

If you don't want, or need, an SEP because your sole aim is an MEP then why Renew it?

I believe you are also confusing Licence requirements with Rating requirements:
- You have an EASA CPL. This is valid for life.
- To renew your SEP you need to do 'Training as Required' (may be none) at an ATO/RF and then pass a Licensing Proficiency Check. This LPC will contain a tiny element of Navigation.
Note: Although it is called a Licensing Proficiency Check it is nothing to do with your Licence. It is to Renew your Rating and the check is the same no matter what Licence (ATPL, CPL or PPL) the Rating will be attached to.

do the Instrument Rating and skills test and then multi engine skill test.

would I get any credits towards the cpl sep rating?1) There is no such thing as a 'cpl sep rating'
2) If the flying is in an MEP then it does not count towards SEP Renewal

[MrAverage]

Also, If you've already got an EASA CPL (and I think you have to admit, because of the way your post reads, you don't appear to have CPL knowledge) you must have already completed your commercial qualifying cross country. Why therefore are you asking about credits towards that?

[Level Attitude]

Yes it is a completely new topic, but:

Provision of free flight tests is not a no income, but nil cost, nice gesture.

As a minimum the ATO would have the loss of the cost of fuel used and, unless the Examiner is an employee of the ATO on a salary independent of flying time then, either the ATO or the Examiner has the loss of the Examination fee.

Not many ATOs would provide any free Renewals/Revalidations to their Instructors and, in the case you outline, there is absolutely no business reason for them to provide a free IR Renewal to you.

If you are an employee of the ATO then look at your Contract of Employment to see what you are entitled to, or what the ATO (at their own discretion) may provide.
Most would probably give a reduced aircraft rental rate to their Instructors.

[EIPCW]

Hi,
My MEP expired in April 2012 and my ME-IR expired in April 2013.

My question is, do I need to renew my MEP class rating or is it possible to renew the ME-IR without it?

Obviously this is a huge cost factor, since I've let the MEP rating lapse by more than 3 years, I'd have to complete the entire MEP course again.

I'm just looking for clarification as I've been reading conflicting information.

I currently hold a JAR CAA CPL, which needs to be converted to EASA by June this year.

Thanks in advance.

[Greenlights]

you have to renew your MEP, since 2013 it is mandatory to have a MEP or SEP or any TR/CR valid. You can not hold any IR without class/type rating.
More than 3 years, I bet you need to to do the entire MEP (6h).

[SeventhHeaven]

This depends on the EASA state - Not all states require a valid MEP for an MEIR (yet).

If you don't need the MEIR, but just want to renew it for currency reasons and to prevent your ATPL exams from expiring after 7 years, you could also just get the single engine IR.

[EIPCW]

Cheers guys, but it seems there is no definitive answer.

I would be renewing in the hope of possibly getting offered a type rating course, which would therefore require a MEIR.

I guess I'll contact the UK CAA to see if I will have to renew the MEP also.

[bingofuel]

EIPCW

Assuming you hold a UK issued CPL you do not have to do the whole MEP course, it is training as required by the Head of training at the ATO depending on your experience and length of expiry. That could be 1 sim session or may be several hours. Renewing the MEP can be done in the same flight as the IR and only adds about 15 mins to the flight to do the required manoeuvres.
Once you pass the LPC you will need to have the CAA convert your licence and issue you with an EASA CPL with the valid MEP and IR added, for this there is a fee, if I recall about £80 per rating but check the scheme of charges.
You do not need to do a full mep course!

[EIPCW]

Bingofuel,

Thanks for the info. However as you can see from previous comments, you can see where my confusion comes from.

Some say I need to have a valid MEP within the last 3 years or else I need to complete the entire MEP course. Others say it depends on the authority of my licence. I cannot seem to find any reference to this on the CAA website.

My MEP expired 4 years ago so that puts me beyond the 3 years as mentioned. My MEIR however expired 3 years ago so I'm OK for another few years before exams have to be repeated.

[bingofuel]

I believe the 3 year thing was under JAR and required you to sit the ATO written test. Once you get them renewed onto an EASA licence, showing on the front the 3 years is not relevant, only the 7 years for the IR.
Where are you and who issued your licence?

[bingofuel]

https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-industry/Pilot-licences/Applications/Ratings/Renew-a-multi-pilot-aeroplane-type-rating/

[EIPCW]

I'll be renewing in Ireland but my licence is with the UK CAA. I was under the impression that the 3 year rule for having to complete the entire MEP came in with EASA in 2013

[EIPCW]

Is that link not for MPA type ratings? I'm looking at renewing SPA MEP/MEIR.

[Mustapha Cuppa]

This is to amplify what bingofuel stated earlier. From the AMC/GM to Part-FCL regarding refresher training for a lapsed class or type rating:

AMC1 FCL.740(b)(1) Validity and renewal of class and type ratings

RENEWAL OF CLASS AND TYPE RATINGS: REFRESHER TRAINING

(a) Paragraph (b)(1) of FCL.740 determines that if a class or type rating has lapsed, the applicant shall take refresher training at an ATO. The objective of the training is to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant type or class of aircraft. The amount of refresher training needed should be determined on a case-by-case basis by the ATO, taking into account the following factors:

(1) the experience of the applicant. To determine this, the ATO should evaluate the pilot’s log book, and, if necessary, conduct a test in an FSTD;

(2) the complexity of the aircraft;

(3) the amount of time lapsed since the expiry of the validity period of the rating. The amount of training needed to reach the desired level of proficiency should increase with the time lapsed. In some cases, after evaluating the pilot, and when the time lapsed is very limited (less than 3 months), the ATO may even determine that no further refresher training is necessary. When determining the needs of the pilot, the following items can be taken into consideration:

(i) expiry shorter than 3 months: no supplementary requirements;

(ii) expiry longer than 3 months but shorter than 1 year: a minimum of two training sessions;

(iii) expiry longer than 1 year but shorter than 3 years: a minimum of three training sessions in which the most important malfunctions in the available systems are covered;

(iv) expiry longer than 3 years: the applicant should again undergo the training required for the initial issue of the rating or, in case of helicopter, the training required for the ‘additional type issue’, according to other valid ratings held.

(b) Once the ATO has determined the needs of the applicant, it should develop an individual training programme that should be based on the initial training for the issue of the rating and focus on the aspects where the applicant has shown the greatest needs.

(c) After successful completion of the training, the ATO should give a certificate, or other documental evidence that the training has been successfully achieved to the applicant, to be submitted to the competent authority when applying for the renewal. The certificate or documental evidence needs to contain a description of the training programme.

Additionally, the UK CAA has issued an Alternative Means of Compliance as follows:

Alt MoC1 FCL.740(b)(1) – Validity and renewal of class and type ratings

RENEWAL OF CLASS AND TYPE RATINGS: REFRESHER TRAINING

(a) Paragraph (b)(1) of FCL.740 determines that if a class or type rating has lapsed, the applicant shall take refresher training at an ATO. The objective of the training is to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant type or class of aircraft. The amount of refresher training needed should be determined on a case-by-case basis by the ATO, taking into account the following factors:

(1) the experience of the applicant;

(2) the amount of time elapsed since the privileges of the rating were last used;

(3) the complexity of the aircraft;

(4) whether the applicant has a current rating on another aircraft type or class; and

(5) where considered necessary, the performance of the applicant during a
proficiency check for the rating in an FSTD or an aircraft of the relevant type or class.

It should be expected that the amount of training needed to reach the desired level of competence will increase with the time elapsed since the privileges of the rating were last used.

(b) Once the ATO has determined the needs of the applicant, it should develop an individual training programme based on the ATO’s approved course for the rating, focussing on the aspects where the applicant has shown the greatest needs. Theoretical knowledge instruction should be included as necessary; such as for type-specific system failures in complex aircraft. The performance of the applicant should be reviewed during the training and additional instruction provided where necessary to reach the standard required for the proficiency check.

(c) After successful completion of the training, the ATO should provide a training completion certificate to the applicant, describing the training provided. The training completion certificate should be presented to the Examiner prior to the Proficiency check. Following the successful renewal of the rating the completion certificate and examiner report form should be submitted to the competent authority, together with the relevant application form if the examiner cannot sign the certificate of revalidation in Section XII of the UK-issued licence.

Note: [..]

Finally, and with regard to the requirement or otherwise to hold a valid class or type rating to which an IR can be "attached", I am not aware that this is yet in force. However, NPA 2014-29A proposes the following with regard to the revalidation of the IR(A) (my underlining):

FCL.625.A IR(A) — Revalidation

(a) Revalidation. Applicants for the revalidation of an IR(A):

(1) when combined with the revalidation of a class or type rating, shall pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to this Part;

(2) when not combined with the revalidation of a class or type rating, shall:

(i) for single-pilot aeroplanes, complete section 3b and those parts of section 1 relevant to the intended flight, of the proficiency check prescribed in Appendix 9 to this Part; or

(ii) for multi-engine aeroplanes, complete section 6 of the proficiency check for single-pilot aeroplanes in accordance with Appendix 9 to this Part by sole reference to instruments.; and

(iii) hold the relevant valid class or type rating.

(3) An FNPT II or an FFS representing the relevant class or type of aeroplane may be used in the case of paragraph (2), but at least each alternate proficiency check for the revalidation of an IR(A) in these circumstances shall be performed in an aeroplane.

(b) [..]

[EIPCW]

Thanks Mustapha,

Spoke to the licencing department within the CAA and I was informed that I don't need a class rating to renew my MEIR. Have requested it in writing so I can show to my ATO.

[macflea]

thanks EIPCW you have answered my original question.

I am more or less in the same situation as you , however I will have do all atpl exams again. I left the i/r lapse as it is gone over the 7 years .

on reading the Ryanair cadet requirements , do you know what the difference between having a license (either a theoretical atpl with a jar or an easa Cpl ) means ?

[portsharbourflyer]

Macflea, all the latter statement means you hold a CPL with ATPL exam credits but do not have the flight hours for ATPL issue. For years the unofficial term frozen ATPL has been used.