Are Shoreham flying schools so busy.........

[The Great Cornholio]

...that they don't need to make any effort to encourage new students?

I had been flying with Omega Flying School before the owner decided he'd had enough and decided to do a runner with all our money. For me this is a lifestyle choice, late 40's, more time to follow up interests and the money to achieve my lifelong ambition, to gain my PPL.
As Omega is now no more I decided to investigate other schools on the airfield.

The first was Sussex Flying Club. The young girl was very pleasant on the desk and introduced me to the CFI. I told him of my woes and that I was looking to find a new flying school and the reasons behind it. To be honest I left after 5 minutes feeling rather short changed. If I am to hand over 200 of my hard earned a couple of times a month then the least I would expect would be to be shown the aircraft I would have the pleasure of flying in. Not a chance.... despite the weather grounding all aircraft and a few staff milling around the school, I was swiftly shown around the office and a rate card thrust in my mitts. Next please!

Perry Air was my next visit if only to get my logbook signed off by an ex-Omega instructor. Started off very well, a kind chap who took the time out to show me the aircraft, the hangar and to be honest a very well spent hour. This was better; making me feel welcome and a sense of an environment where I would be happy to finish my training. I left it a couple of weeks and went back to have a chat with my prospective instructor who was running half hour late that morning. Not an issue I though, I would sit in the club waiting room and read the Operations Manual. Well the chap on the desk had different ideas. He suggested in no uncertain terms that it might be more beneficial if I took a trip to the terminal and had myself a coffee whilst waiting, despite immediately to his right a very well used kettle and all the equipment required to make a potential new recruit a welcome coffee. Wow, grumpy was an understatement. Despite his advanced years, I am used to finding dragons at the doors to the Airport Lounges, not at the "first impression" stage of a business that I would have imagined would be chomping at the heels of new business.

Don't get me wrong, I smile when I think of the lengths that these companies feel they don't need to go to in order to secure current and new business; hence my question. Are flying schools doing so well, they are able to pick and choose their customers?

[Jonzarno]

the owner decided he'd had enough and decided to do a runner with all our money.

I can't comment on the other specifics in the rest of your post, but you should not pay up front for multiple lessons for exactly this reason. If, for some reason, you feel you need or want to do that, make sure you pay with a credit (NOT debit) card. That way the card company will have to reimburse you if something like this happens.

[The Great Cornholio]

I paid up front by credit card as the protection is there in the event of; however that really is not the crux of my post.....The same thing can happen buying a car, a holiday, an appliance... this is why the protection a credit card gives you is far more beneficial than using cash even if the company goes belly up and you have an actual item to which you can claim against.

[Heston]

The young girl was very pleasant on the desk and introduced me to the CFI. I told him of my woes....

"Hello Mr CFI. I didn't choose your flying school to start with, preferring to go with one of your competitors. Now that they've ripped me off, I'd like you to teach me instead."

I tend to get grumpy when I'm invited to pick up the pieces left by situations like this as well.

And at your second encounter, when the instructor was running late I'd say that the chap on the desk did the right thing - in other words he was protecting his staff from further interruption and ensuring that his existing customers weren't inconvenienced by any more delay. Existing customers deserve loyalty from a business; prospects don't.

That said, there is no excuse for rudeness. Some basic customer care principles would be a good thing at many schools.

[DirtyProp]

I tend to get grumpy when I'm invited to pick up the pieces left by situations like this as well.
Don't get into business, then.
Sorry, but a customer is entitled to give his money to whoever he chooses for whatever reason.
And if he got unlucky and came back to you, I think you just got a great opportunity.
If you mistreat prospective customers, there won't be any new ones and you'll only have the existing ones.
Not a wise idea, in my book.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I paid up front by credit card
Ah, so it wasn't "all [y]our money", it was the bank's money.

[nkt2000]

Fully agree with Dirtyprop. This should be looked on as an opportunity to take work from a competitor, no matter what the circumstance. I expect Mr Heston is either extracting the yellow liquid or does not run a business.

[Heston]

either extracting the yellow liquid or does not run a business

Both, as in yes I was, and yes I do, actually.

take work from a competitor, no matter what the circumstance

That approach has got more small businesses into difficulties than almost any other. Being cautious and making sure propects (for that's all the OP was at the time) are qualified (ie are going to follow through and aren't just tyre kickers) is really important or you will find yourself doing loads of selling and no earning.

What a business needs is a way of attracting people who are going to be good customers and actively discouraging anybody who isnt so that they dont waste time on them. It could be that having grumpy front desk staff is a strategy that ensures only really keen prospects follow through - flying schools that have kept going must have something right in terms of survival of the fittest (Darwin-style) dont you think?

[garethep]

Try "The Real Flying Company" Very friendly, professional and nicely kept aircraft.

[rnzoli]

I can't speak of your airfield, but this is a little bit general experience ín many other places (schools, clubs) too.

before the owner decided he'd had enough and decided to do a runner So this just created a sudden surge of unexpected demand for the remaining schools, for which they may not be prepared for right away. :)

For me this is a lifestyle choice, late 40's, more time to follow up interests and the money to achieve my lifelong ambition, to gain my PPL. This makes you a second priority behind students wanting to learn to fly for making a career. You want to learn in a cosy and leasurely pace, your horizon is to gain, who knows how much you will later fly, your flight currency may be on a low level after your PPL obtained, making it risky to lend aircraft to you later on....! :)
If I am to hand over 200 of my hard earned a couple of times a month You aren't aware that 190 of that goes to buy fuel, pay for insurance, pay low wages to CFIs.... flight training is a low-margin, yet risky business, especially with non-career students.

Well the chap on the desk had different ideas. He suggested in no uncertain terms that it might be more beneficial if I took a trip to the terminal and had myself a coffee whilst waiting, despite immediately to his right a very well used kettle and all the equipment required to make a potential new recruit a welcome coffee. THis is a classic behavioural test :) If you want to be a pilot, you have to have to courage to ask, threaten or trick getting coffee from that cattle :)


Wow, grumpy was an understatement. You need to get used to this and handle this like a man. Imagine how grumpy they can get when you fail to follow instructions during training :)

[Capt Kremmen]

Blimey ! Between rrizoli and Heston or, to put it another way, between a rock and a hard place. You both need a refresher at the Charm Academy. You both need to think in terms of; trowel, schmooze and laying it on thick.

This is a would be customer and student for Heaven's sake - they ain't exactly thick on the ground. rrizoli your comments are outrageous. Please tell me they are 'tongue in cheek'? If any instructor had got grumpy with me during training, they would have received short shrift and I'd have been on my bike looking elsewhere.

If I were to arrive at an FTO with somewhere between five and ten thousand readies to spend I would expect red carpet in any and every conceivable way - not expected to wheedle and cajole a cup of bloody coffee from the grumpy git behind the counter.

Great Cornholio, welcome to the world of GA in Britain. Based on my fifty four years of experience I can't promise that you'll find any improvements. Most like to think that they are doing you a favour in allowing you into their aviation emporium - so you'd better toe the line - or else !

[PA28181]

What an absolute load of b**l*cks, this is typical of British companies attitudes to customers, anyone here who is defending the outrageous and unforgivable service to a potential customer, is someone who needs to take a long hard look at their quirky idea of customer service.

[rnzoli]

rrizoli your comments are outrageous. Please tell me they are 'tongue in cheek'? Yes of course, my answers are a bit of friendly teasing. I was experiencing the same to some extent in my country and I am not fond of it, at all!

But on a serious note: there are plenty of rough things that can happen in aviation, turbulence, weather, engine playing up, arguing with ATC, fellow aviators cracking jokes about your landings, your instructor having a bad day.... so it's a good idea to focus on the goal, and ignore the unimportant.

By the way, a friend of mine got really fed up with his instructor during his training, he felt he was treated as a piece of sh...t. After some time, he raised his voice and told the instructor to stop because the instructor's attitude handicaps his training. Guess what? The instructor was content with this and became very nice afterwards. So hence my advice: focus on the goal and ignore the unimportant things. Walking down a red carpet to PPL is not important. Getting there is.

[Capt Kremmen]

To use your expression: "Walking down the red carpet to your PPL" is very much a part of one's training experience. How you start is reflected in how you finish and points in between.

The initial experience emphatically does not come into "ignoring the unimportant", it is part of the goal. There should be no such thing as any 'unimportant' part of one's training. One cannot put a price on friendliness, cheerfulness and a welcoming atmosphere in the FTO they are a necessary accompaniment of business efficiency aimed at giving value for money.

I'm shocked that attitiudes such as those aired by some commentators are still held. We seem to have learned very little in GA which is, after all, a service industry.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Unfortunately, it doesn't change after you have your license. Flying club/schools seem to attract those with an elitist attitude bias, deserved or not. Instructors & receptionists seem to suffer the worst from this.
Obviously there will be exceptions, but I encountered the same attitudes 30 years ago when training, and still do whenever I venture near my on-airfield club/school (thankfully not frequently as I have my own aircraft).

My advice is grit your teeth, pay the money, get the training and then go flying!
It'll be worth it in the end.

[alex90]

Cornholio,

I actually stay well away from Shoreham, I really didn't have a positive experience landing there after I had passed my PPL. Not from ATC, not from the people supposed to welcome you (where they take a great big bite out of your pocket too), not from the flying school I visited there. Over the last few years, I have been making a note of the friendly places I have visited, and of the more unfriendly places too. Like everything in the UK you just need to sift through the cr*p to find the good stuff!

I have had a very positive experience learning at Biggin Hill (which I understand is a bit of a drive from you). Both Alouette Flying Club (bit cheaper than S&K) and Surrey & Kent. I found them both very welcoming, very nice and always got a cup of tea for you, even if you're on your first visit. Send me a PM if you're interested and I'll give you some tips on both clubs.

I wouldn't have spent all that money on going to a place I didn't feel welcomed, or a place that didn't feel was right for me. I went through quite a few before settling on Surrey & Kent, did trial lessons in many places too. You get the ATPL academies, the real flying "school", the club that tries to be the school, the club that is very much a club and the few instructors that have their own business teaching on their own plane. Not all will suit your style (or your pocket). I opted for a club that aspired to be a school for the training (as I wanted the availability of the instructor, as well as the slightly more regimented learning).

I am not sure where you are based, but there may be a few places I could strongly recommend such as Cambridge, Southend Flying Club, Alouette (biggin), S&K (biggin), Jersey Aeroclub, Goodwood.... amongst others. Always felt welcomed, always felt a part of the team, and always felt that it was money well spent.

I also agree that this kind of behaviour is crazy, especially after every single school out there having had such a bad winter! Surely they'd rejoice to have a new customer, and bend over backwards to get you hooked in!

I do agree however that part of the training is dealing with pressure, as has been mentioned. But I refuse to think that it is acceptable to put you under that stress outside of the cockpit environment during training.

[Heston]

Jeez folks, lighten up! You are a lot of delicate little flowers.

Nobody is defending rudeness or poor customer service. Any business needs to put on a welcoming face to the outside world.

But I've spent the last 30 years running a consultancy that advised small businesses on planning and strategy, and I can tell you that the worst drain on a small business's resources is the prospective customer who doesn't really have any intention to buy but is just being a "tourist". In fact the very worst are those who get you to design a solution for them, write up a proposal and cost it for them - they then take it to your competitor and get them to do the work for a cheaper price. I'm not saying that is directly relevant here, but the general principle is - prospects are prospects, they dont become customers until they have parted with some cash. Maybe the OP would have had a different experience if he'd asked to book a lesson at each school he visited?

Oh and by the way - I now run my own flying school - about 30% of folk who turn up to enquire become right pains in the backside because they never get on with it and just keep coming back for another 90 minute chat and three cups of coffee. Walter Mitty had nothing on them. I'd do anything to get them to go away. Flying schools are businesses after all.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

That approach has got more small businesses into difficulties than almost any other.
Yes. Who remembers the phone company whose business model was selling to people who couldn't get BT phones, because they'd got disconnected for failing to pay their bills?

Guess what? - they got lots of customers, and then went bust, because their customers didn't pay their bills.

I can tell you that the worst drain on a small business's resources is the prospective customer who doesn't really have any intention to buy but is just being a "tourist". In fact the very worst are those who get you to design a solution for them, write up a proposal and cost it for them - they then take it to your competitor and get them to do the work for a cheaper price.
I went for a job interview once ... and got used (during the interview) as a free consultant, and it turned out they didn't really have a job anyway.


So a few years later the same company invite me for interview again. My response to the agent: "that's £500 cash in advance for attending the interview, deductible against my first month's salary when I've got the job".

[Capt Kremmen]

Squeegee Longtail

You're absolutely right. I now do not go back to those places where I had a less than welcoming experience. Here's one from my archive ! Having flown into Compton Abbas one fine day, not by design but due to a problem at my home airfield, I politely asked reception if they would be kind enough to phone my home airfield and ask if all was now well and offering to pay for the call. I got a blank refusal from an extremely stroppy receptionist.

There were altogether about six of us who had flown in and after a while someone produced a cell phone and we made our own call. We were clear to return.

I haven't been back to Compton for just over two years. This attitude was mirrored by a the experience of a friend in slightly different circumstance but still negative on the part of Compton.

[piperboy84]

I've only been to Shoreham once a couple of years ago for an overnight stop on my way back to Scotland, and had a very positive experience with one of the flight schools and its staff.

I was sitting on the spotters bench planning my flight when I struck up a conversation with a guy who turned out to be a flight instructor from the flight school above the restaurant in the main building, he asked about my plane and intended flight . He offered to go upstairs and print out the latest weather then spent a fair bit of time interpreting and discussing what conditions I could expect along my intended route. The net result I delayed the flight till the next day.

Can't remember the guys name but he appeared to be in his late 50's and he offered me his professional advice, use of his computers and his time all without the request or expectation of remuneration and knowing there would be no future business or selling to a guy who was just passing through.

Decent bloke, school receptionist was friendly, all in all a very positive experience of Shoreham.

Pic of my visit

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Maule-MX-7-180-Star/2525084/L/

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Maule-MX-7-180-Star/2525084/L/

[fa2fi]

I don't think your experience is atypical. It's UK GA. I'm well glad I'm out of it. GA can suffer from the small town mentality as it were. I'd often pitch up and be treated more like a trespasser than a paying customer at some airfields. And as for flights schools they're very unpredictable - keep looking until you find a good one. If they don't treat you well when you come to them as potential business then they're not going to treat you well once you've signed up and they have your membership fee or fee or worse you pay up front for their block rates.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

He offered to go upstairs and print out the latest weather then spent a fair bit of time interpreting and discussing what conditions I could expect along my intended route. The net result I delayed the flight till the next day.

Can't remember the guys name but he appeared to be in his late 50's and he offered me his professional advice, use of his computers and his time all without the request or expectation of remuneration and knowing there would be no future business or selling to a guy who was just passing through.
Cue one of those discussions about the duty people do or don't owe to other pilots whom they think might be about to go off and do something potentially risky?

[Jonzarno]

I politely asked reception if they would be kind enough to phone my home airfield and ask if all was now well and offering to pay for the call. I got a blank refusal from an extremely stroppy receptionist.


[Rant]Not just in this context, but generally: I'm simply amazed that anyone could refuse such a simple, and effectively costless, courtesy. I know that people do, but can't understand why.

Reading some of the earlier posts in this thread, I'm also struck by the attitude of some of the experiences and comments that I would summarise as: "if there's no immediate benefit to me, why should I behave kindly to you?"

Perhaps if those subscribing to such a view were to have a flat tyre on a rainy Friday evening at the side of a busy motorway, they might wish heartily to meet someone who doesn't agree with it...... :* [\Rant]

Ah, that feels better! :O

[Gertrude the Wombat]

[Rant]Not just in this context, but generally: I'm simply amazed that anyone could refuse such a simple, and effectively costless, courtesy.
Ah, but, what if it isn't costless?


Suppose a handling service had been available, a bargain at £30, including unlimited free use of the phone, and the punter had refused to buy the handling service, but then asked for the free phone calls anyway?


In that case the cost to the phone owner is the £30 fee they haven't taken. Let everybody have free phone calls and an entire income stream bites the dust :D:=:(:ok: !!!

[Jonzarno]

I didn't read that as being the context but, even if it was, £30 for a phone call does seem a trifle steep....... ;)

Cue mandatory handling thread creep..... :8

[rnzoli]

In that case the cost to the phone owner is the £30 fee they haven't taken. You probably mean opportunity cost. i.e., the imaginary loss of revenue. The real cost would have been the cost charged by the landline phone company, not the 30 GPB.

Let everybody have free phone calls and an entire income stream bites the dust :D:=:(:ok: !!! Alternatively, set unreasonably high prices, with no granularity between zero calls and infinite number of calls, and 99% of the revenue stream opportunity bites the dust in the very same way! So not only generousity but greed also kills revenue streams. The chap offered to cover the cost of the call, but it was not accepted. So they waited until someone brought a mobile phone and made their call over that. So in economical terms, the opportunity cost to the owner wasn't his imaginary 30 GPB, but the much lower cost of 1 mobile call. Economically speaking, both the pilots and the owner lost the opportunity to make a deal and help each other (and the mobile phone company won :) ) This is why it makes sense to be moderately nice and flexible in business - not too generous, not too greedy....

[nkt2000]

I think the main problem is that we don't understand the concept of "service" in the UK any more. I am not encouraged by some of the replies on this thread and I certainly wouldn't put any business in the way of one or two respondents.

[Lukesdad]

I think that when I first considered learning to fly, I did think that the flight school was getting a significant proportion of my hourly rate as profit. Twenty odd years a PPL and several hundred hours later, I understand that not many people in the training world appear to have made their millions and retired.

I can only defend the Shoreham operation by stating that their ATC is one of the busiest and most professional I have come across and as far as flight schools are concerned, I booked a trial lesson with Advance Helicopters last year in their Schweizer before deciding whether or not to turn to the 'dark side' of rotary flight, and found them friendly, welcoming and efficient.

Mind you, I spoke to them a week earlier, booked in during the week rather than a weekend, turned up on time and had researched the aircraft I was to fly.

Perhaps Jonazarno and the flight school he chose just combined to have their bad day on the same day.

[Binners93]

Hi The Great Cornholio
Sorry to hear about what happened with Omega, as I understand they were becoming quieter as the months went on over the last couple of years. Have you considered FTA on the airfield for training? I know they train PPL students both full and part time on Warrior IIs and DA40s?

[Capt Kremmen]

nkt2000

You are so right ! What frightens me is that we, as a nation, are supposed to be running a service economy.


rrizoli

The true and correct cost to Compton Abbas is partly quantifiable. If I went there three or four times a year as was my habit - with passengers, the landing fee plus our cafeteria spending x two years is now lost.

With no attempt to explain their policy, no attempt at even a grudging apology, I felt justified in spreading the word about Compton's lack of elementary politeness and good manners. So, I did just that. That bit can't be quantified with any accuracy.

Some of the people who run these places shouldn't be running a newspaper round - with apologies to the boys and girls who do such a good job. Might I suggest, that if our visiting experience is not a good one then we would be doing all our fellow aviators a huge favour in listing and publishing our personal experiences.

Such action might result in an improvement. We can live in hope !

[sprng cicken]

Oh I feel so sorry for the poor chap it would seem that no matter which flying school he goes to, he is not going to be happy. No doubt there is a school which rolls out the red carpet and gives a golden service, but then I don't suppose he would be happy with the cost, so would moan about that. It would also be of benefit for him to learn of the enormous amount of work done at a flying school in the morning. If he expects to sit down and chat, there would be no flying done, as nothing would be ready for the day.

[Arw82]

+1 for the Real Flying Company. I was one of their first PPLs 13 years ago! Great club friendly, well maintained / looked after aircraft and lots of professional pilot instructors. Husband and wife team, very friendly atmosphere. Don't let Omega going bust put you off, I started with Southern and they went the same way!

[rnzoli]

Such action might result in an improvement. We can live in hope !Always! And I don't think it's a UK-specific thing. With the "wrong" conditions in an economy, the verb "to serve" can lose its meaning quite quickly.

In my past 4 years in GA PPL training and flying, I am going through my 4th base/school by now. But I am NOT bitter about any of them! They all had certain ideas and logic in their setup, and I took the advantage of the prioritized benefits I was after, and for this, I put up with the disadvantages for a limited time. There were mutual advantages, but as needs/circumstances changed, we parted in peace. I was quite open to all of the school owners / club managers on what made me go away, and I accepted that they had a different view on the same things. While I was quite open to tell anyone my personal experience with them, I didn't go about bitching and bad-mouthing them. I always give a balanced view on these schools / clubs, including the upsides and downsides. I noticed that the club / school owners accept critiscism better this way, and I can also confirm that with enough pressure from the clients, they change. So there is a reason to hope, but one must be realistic and should not expect immediate miracles.

[Jonzarno]

Perhaps Jonazarno and the flight school he chose just combined to have their bad day on the same day.

You misunderstand: the problem that the OP and subsequent posters had were nothing to do with me; I was just reacting to a report about what I thought was a particularly bad example of bad customer service. It was not my own experience. The school where I trained (Northamptonshire School of Flying) was exemplary and I'd recommend them to anyone.

[Capt Kremmen]

There seem to be a few who continue to defend poor service. Permit me to remind them that in any context, cash and customers are king !

[xrayalpha]

If the customer is always right.... they'd know what to do and we wouldn't need flying instructors or schools!

[Capt Kremmen]

That comment gets full marks for idiocy! Being right and 'knowing what to do' are about as far removed as one could get. Don't muddy the waters, we're discussing elementary standards of good service.

[Jonzarno]

Well, IMHO the customer isn't always right. But how you tell them, and how you persuade them to buy what is genuinely right for them, is what professional and ethical selling is all about. It's also the start of good customer service.

[The Ancient Geek]

Yebbut it helps if the customer walks in with a smile and a nice word for the poor underpaid woman who has to sit at a reception desk all day taking crap from the world and his dog.

[Jonzarno]

I agree. Courtesy is a two way street: perhaps one of the most valuable, yet most inexpensive and easily acquired personal attributes. It's a shame that not everyone sees it that way.

[Capt Kremmen]

Yes, courtesy should be reciprocal. But in this particular instance it must begin, as it should with any service industry, with a smile and a rolling out of the welcome mat from those offering the service. Hopefully, the would be customer responds in like fashion.

I'm amazed at some of your comments. It suggests itself to me that some of you don't know how the real world should operate. Either that or, you've led very sheltered lives.

I've never wrote that the customer is always right. What I wrote was, that the customer 'was king'. Big difference.

[DirtyProp]

Yebbut it helps if the customer walks in with a smile and a nice word for the poor underpaid woman who has to sit at a reception desk all day taking crap from the world and his dog.
True, but the customer is not obliged to be courteous. That's his choice.
The service provider better be, if he wants to stay in business.
And how much is the receptionist making, or how much crap is dealing with is certainly not the customer's concern.

[Heston]

You folk stuck on the "the customer is king" mantra are still missing the point. Yes the CUSTOMER is KING, but the OP was not a customer - he was an enquirer who was looking at several alternative schools. You do not inconvenience your paying customers or disrupt productive activities to entertain an unknown enquirer. Sure, rudeness is unacceptable and a polite welcome should be the order of the day - if it was inconvenient to deal with the OP at that time then making a revised appointment to meet later would have been a good idea.

[Capt Kremmen]

Heston

Semantics ! You do not know - how could you - the true intentions of every customer who walks into your emporium. You hope or, should hope, that by your pleasant attitude and friendly manner, you can roll out a bit of red carpet and that they will be sufficiently attracted by what you have on offer, to then buy whatever you are selling.

That is usually how it works. It's apparent from your comments that you are suspicious of some of your would be customers ultimate commitment. That's a mistake ! Of the first ten customers thru' your doors the first nine might be complete Mitty's and are looking for a chat. The tenth delivers gold and signs up thus making the exercise worthwhile.

If your business is flying training, then you are in fact, nine times out of ten, dealing in dreams, which you and your staff thru' their skill, expertise, and friendly demeanour turn into reality.

As a youngster, I, along with countless thousands of others had my dreams and flying was to the foremost. in the face of some degree of poverty, my dreams became reality because of the kindness and patience of my instructors at Biggin Hill, a benevolent flying club and my ability to live on fresh air and use the money saved to pay for my lessons.

One gets much more out of people with a kind word and a smile - try it !

By the way, the OP was/is a potential customer and therefore 'king'.

[Heston]

first ten customers thru' your doors the first nine might be complete Mitty's and are looking for a chat. The tenth delivers gold and signs up thus making the exercise worthwhileYes of course - and I agree with most of the rest of what CK says in the last post. But all small businesses are just that - small with few staff. If they are busy looking after existing paying customers then they mustn't allow prospects to disrupt the work of serving those customers: if they do we'll be seeing posts on here saying things like
"I'm going to change my school. Every time I've got a lesson booked its late because my instructor is off doing something else like chatting to prospects at the counter. I expect to be treated better than that."
So I'll say it again - politeness costs nothing and its easy to politely make folk feel welcome and wanted, but it may be the case that they need to be asked to wait or come back another time (assuming they have just turned up un-announced of course).

The bit I dont agree with, then, is the OP was/is a potential customer and therefore 'king' He's only a customer and "king" once he's paying for something. Before that he's a prospect and takes second place to paying customers.

Anyway that's enough free business advice from me - I get paid to help people sort out these kind of issues normally.

[Baikonour]

What a bizarre thread and opinions.

Maybe if more 'prospects' were treated as 'kings', they would become 'customers' instead of remaining 'prospects'.

How is a 'prospect' to know how he will be treated when he is a 'customer'. All he sees is how he is treated as a 'prospect' :ugh:

Maybe one reason there are so many 'tirekickers' around is that they get treated like 'non-kings'. If they were treated properly from the beginning, they might become customers...

Sure, prospects can be time wasters, but so can customers.
And all customers will sooner or later finish their custom - and if you have not converted any 'prospects' to 'customers' by that time - you're stuffed.

Like many on here, I run a business and I'm pretty pleased with my churn, retention and conversion ratios - but I guess I am not paying consultants to help me get it 'right'. :rolleyes:

B.

[Capt Kremmen]

And we wonder why GA is contracting and not expanding !

[Gertrude the Wombat]

if they do we'll be seeing posts on here saying things like "I'm going to change my school. Every time I've got a lesson booked its late because my instructor is off doing something else like chatting to prospects at the counter. I expect to be treated better than that."
But we do hear that from time to time - the school who delays/cancels a regular customer to give precedence to "trial flights", on the theory that the regular customer is almost certainly going to come back again some other day whereas the "trial flight" is a one-off.

[DirtyProp]

He's only a customer and "king" once he's paying for something. Before that he's a prospect and takes second place to paying customers.

Anyway that's enough free business advice from me - I get paid to help people sort out these kind of issues normally.
Several years ago, my boss at the time gave me a small piece of advice that proved itself time and time again.
He said that once the business (it was a restaurant) is all set-up, by far the hardest, most difficult task was to get new people to come through the entrance door, and once inside to keep them inside.
In other words, to get prospective customers to come in and stay in.
I will pass his sound advice onto others that want to take it, since obviously Mr. Heston knows everything there is to know about running a business.

[Gipsy Queen]

I have been following this thread and have become overwhelmed with confusing ambivalence.

When I learnt to fly, things were very different and really in no sense comparable with the current scene. I suppose that makes my comments irrelevant.

Back then, the cost of operating an establishment suitable for ab initio training was low - fabric-covered aircraft, usually war surplus, were cheap to buy and maintain. The clubhouse was an ex-army hut with the CFI (often the only I) officed at one end and the clubroom kitted out with an ill-assorted collection of easy chairs in various degrees of disrepair; the club provided little else beyond a few Brylcreem-lined leather flying helmets. The quality of training was variable but most instructors were ex-services and inculcated competence and a sense of responsibility when the world was a very much simpler place. Things were basic but for a block booking, you could borrow a kite for less than 50/- an hour which now sounds like peanuts but as the national wage was less than £10/week, one had to be pretty keen to get in the 40 hours to PPL. Of course, this was years before the adoption of the "positive customer experience".

Today, this shoestring type of operation has been legislated out of existence to be replaced by what effectively is an academy devoted to the teaching of law, communications, avionics and all the stuff which was thought superfluous to VFR flight more than 50 years ago.

Modern private flying aircraft by comparison are sophisticated machines and correspondingly expensive - sadly, whilst allowing you to acquire the abilities necessary to obtain a basic licence, they will not teach you to fly. Business costs are astronomic compared with a notional rent for a small hut in a corner of a grass aerodrome of times gone by and I'm sure the expectation of would-be pilots now is increased in accordance with this advanced sophistry.

Whereas in the past, running a flying club was a largely amateurish affair and all manner of what might now be regarded as "non commercial" practices were commonplace, the exigencies of modern business militate against these. Frankly, I'm surprised that anyone would want to operate a flying school in this country.

My confusion is caused by my seeing both sides of the argument - I can only conclude that I'm lucky to have been able to take off my four bars before the whole business became stifled by an overbearing beauracracy.

Sorry, that doesn't advance the discussion much, does it?

[PA28181]

You do not inconvenience your paying customers or disrupt productive activities to entertain an unknown enquirer

Unbelievable..

[Jonzarno]

All too believable, I'm afraid. But Darwin's theory of natural selection also applies to businesses.......

[alex90]

I still don't understand this notion of "putting prospects" whether before or after "current paying customers" I really really don't understand it.

90% of the time when I walk into any flying club or flying school, if they do have a receptionist, or an instructor manning "the desk" they're twiddling their thumbs, going on the internet, waiting for the phone to ring and in my opinion doing rather little else! Someone I know has the time to do monthly updates on the website, research better SEO for the club website whilst manning the desk on his bi-monthly shift, as well as sort out his normal duties. For the remaining 10%, they're often busy doing invoices, charging credit cards, making tea/coffee or dealing with reservations & cancellations / phone calls.

So yes, I am a little baffled. Why does one need to be put in front of the other? Surely the person who walks in the door first gets a first go, and the second waits a little before being helped out, in the (unlikely) event that they're busy!

I think it is the attitude that staff have when anyone walks through the door that matters most. Something else I find worth remembering, is the fact that they may not choose to do their training with you today - and go elsewhere for their first a/b initio. However, had they had a nice experience coming in, they may very well come back for further training later on down the line, such as IMC / Night / IR / aerobatics / renewals... etc...

I don't think you have the need to have a 90+minute conversation, but a courteous 15 minutes chat and if they're still interested, a quick look at any of the planes if any are sitting on the ground makes a world of difference.

The staff I meet who can't be bothered to even chat to you, let alone welcome you, regardless of the tea/coffee being offered is like shooting yourself in the foot.

Something I found fantastic was when someone once came in inquiring about learning to fly. The receptionist made him feel really welcomed, and spent the 10minute chat with him, showed him one of the planes, got the prospect all excited about learning to fly. Then came back in several minutes later to find there had been a cancellation, offered it the prospect who jumped up and paid for a trial lesson. I am not sure if this particular person returned to learn to fly with the club, but surely that is a win/win situation for all concerned is it not? Had that person been turned away after the initial 4minute chat (especially after travelling sometimes hours, to get to the airfields) the prospect would have gone home disappointed, and the club would have lost out on an hour of flying, so would the instructor!

Anyway - rant over.

[rnzoli]

Unbelievable..
The proverb "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" would ring a bell, wouldn't it? :)

[rnzoli]

Sorry, that doesn't advance the discussion much, does it?
It definitely adds to it. If we are unsure, why the good old days are gone, maybe it's worth to check what was not working so well those days.

Perhaps the shoestring operations were forced to industrialize in order to "tame" the GA training/traffic and make room for the explosive growth of commercial air traffic (and the collateral increase of pilot training needs). The aeroplane design and production techniques advanced because they offer less laborous flying (Garmin 1000 vs. VFR charts?), lower maintenance costs, longer life cycle.

Same as the black vinyl records. Those were great in their times, with unparellelled sound quality, but everyone moved onto CD and nowadays MP3 because of the ease of access, ease of use. Inferior in quality and music experience, but the new inventions offered so much more (e.g., freedom of location for listening), that the shift was unstoppable. Life moved on, that's all :)

[FREDAcheck]

I'm a little disappointed to hear people defending discourteous behaviour from flying schools on the justification that courtesy is to be granted on the basis of potential profit. If they’re not actually giving us money then we can’t afford a smile, least of all a cup of coffee.

Like the people that don't think to hold a door open for you, and don't say thank you or even smile when you hold a door open for them, presumably as you’re not paying them.

Of course there may be a limit to how much time a business can give to someone that isn’t a customer and isn’t likely to become one. But a lot of courtesy really does cost very little. It makes both the giver and the receiver feel better.

Courtesy isn't a business decision; it’s the mark of a civilised society.

[Heston]

Courtesy isn't a business decision; it’s the mark of a civilised society. I agree and I think if you read through the thread carefully you will find that no-one has been defending discourtesy on any grounds at all - I certainly haven't. There is no excuse for rudeness.

What I am saying is that it is unrealistic for an unknown person to turn up unannounced at a busy flying school and to expect employees who are busy looking after their customers (ie they are teaching people to fly or handling all the admin that goes with that) to drop everything for a lengthy conversation and a look round.

If you'd taken your car to the garage to be serviced and agreed to pick it up at 4pm, you'd be pretty upset if it wasnt ready when you got there and the excuse was "Sorry we didn't do the work on your car because we were busy talking to someone who dropped in to ask about how we do things."

You'd expect the garage to have prioritised your work (as a paying customer) over chatting to prospects. You'd quite rightly go somewhere else next time and you'd tell everyone you know about the bad experience you'd had.

Back to flying schools - if you want to find out whether you like them, please give them a call beforehand and make an appointment - then the right person will be able to answer all your questions and everybody will be happy.

Oh and if a school has got paid employees sitting around doing nothing (not on a break I mean) then its got bigger problems and I'd be inclined to go elsewhere simply because of that. A good school should be a busy school. (I'm not working today btw, so I'm not wasting my customers' time by replying to this thread)

[Capt Kremmen]

FREDAcheck

What an excellent well thought out reply !


Heston

It seems that any excuse will do. Glad I'm not an investor in your business. If I was, I'd want some changes in attitude.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

It’s good to know that some things don’t change at Shoreham. It sounds very like my first attempt to get flight training in 1991. Despite the big friendly sign outside the school door, no one approached and asked if they could help when we walked in. Members at the bar stopped and stared, then carried on with their discussions. Two lots of ‘paid up front’ training money (yes, my then girlfriend and I were dumb enough to do that) walked out the door. Probably leaving everyone in the club to lament the lack of new PPL starts and the generally parlous state of flight training.

The thing that those of us who have been in light aviation for longer than is good for our health or bank balance tend to forget how off-putting it is to take that first step. Perhaps folk these days join internet forums and generally get themselves well informed before they venture in to the actual world of the flying school. I know that when I started it took some determination and in the end a blind leap of faith. If anyone remembers the Air South adverts in the flying magazines they will know what I mean.

One thought that comes to mind, particularly in the light of the ‘my staff are too busy to deal with walk-in punters’ operation, is to ask some of the present crop of students at the school talk to the Prospects. They may well not have all the answers and possibly not stick to the party line, but will be full of enthusiasm. They will usually know more than the prospect and can always ask an instructor if they don’t know the answer.

Prospect: “I use Flight Sim, can I do CAT IIIc approaches in this Cessna 152?”
Student: “Er, I'm not sure, we don’t normally take our pets flying. I’ll ask the instructor when he gets back”.

I've no proof that the student is your best salesman approach works, but the number of times I’ve spoken to people who were put off or snubbed (as they saw it) by the school and later went on to do some flight training, makes me think it’s worth a try. If your school is so busy that you can’t afford any ‘official’ time to talk to prospects, you are obviously doing well (or are very under staffed). It’s not going to cost anything. If you don’t talk to the prospect you will loose them anyway. Besides, the student will feel good about showing their knowledge and helping recruit another student to the organisation.

[Capt Kremmen]

I'm puzzled by this continuous reference to 'prospects'. At which point in our busy and exciting lives did customers become 'prospects' ?

Once someone walks thru' the door of your business they are a customer. They are not even a 'prospective customer' unless they are outside your business. If we use innaccurate descriptions there is a tendency to provide misleading justifications and excuses for poor or non existent service.

For the guilty among you; don't dig your heels in just because you're the boss and you wish to show your exasperation. Offer your time and a smile to those coming thru' your front door. Your business will be the beneficiary.

[alex90]

Heston,

With an attitude such as portrayed in this thread - how are you still in business?Do you manage to survive on a bunch of 'old boys' who did their PPL back when you first opened the school, to take an occasional flight with an instructor for renewal / an occasional local trip? Surely that type of attitude cannot possibly get you any new business!

It doesn't take long to be nice to them, explain to them how it works, and get them booked in for a trial flight! Convert prospect to business in order to convert a failing to a prosperous business. A whole 10minutes and you've got yourself a potential recurrent customer who will spend £10k+ with you over the next year!

Again - in your garage, why do you need to delay the works on the paying customer's car? It only takes a few minutes and you don't get many new customers through the door!

I agree with Capt Kremmen on this.

[ChampChump]

Many moons ago, it was habitual at the gliding club where I flew to slot in trial flights (air-ex, whichever) as soon as was humanly possible. Club members were inconvenienced a little, but most recognised the logic and as WKW has said, could be usefully deployed as well. Results: money for club, good PR and new members, obviously at a conversion rate concomitant with many such experiences.

It wasn't a really a walk-in sort of place, being, like many gliding sites, far from the beaten track, but booked flights would arrive with family or friends and it was these that often led to the increased membership.

The important thing, whoever walked through the door, was a warm welcome and at least being shown the gliders if the day was poor. We didn't have many members like our Polish chap who was driving along the main road, saw a glider in the air and followed his nose to find the field.

[rnzoli]

I'm puzzled by this continuous reference to 'prospects'. At which point in our busy and exciting lives did customers become 'prospects' ?When abundant supplies surpass the demand. I mean, in case supply & demand is in balance, we buy from the most convenient / closest source after the basic checks (price levels, quality). So if your business is OK in that aspect, whoever walks in, will buy something, prospect = customer.

When supply is much greater than demand, buyers try to take advantage of this, and test all possible options to see where they can gain the lowest price with highest quality. So they will constantly walk in and out of all the shops available to them, sometimes repetitively, yet, they will only purchase in one shop. This is when some people make themselves prospects and get treated differently from customers. (Not necessarily in an unpolite way, but certainly on a different track.)

Sorry for being a little off-topic here, but this connects well to the statement about contracting / shrinking General Aviation scene.

[Capt Kremmen]

rrizoli

I hope that I don't offend you when I comment that you and I appear to be speaking different languages. In ordinary commercial practice - which is what we're discussing - the term customer, has a single,simple meaning. A customer is important and merits every consideration. No amount of semantics can change that.

According to some opinion on this subject, a 'prospect' is to suffer the indignity of being 'graded' in terms of priority and importance according to the whim and staffing availability of the business !

No wonder GA continues to shrink.

[2hotwot]

Nothing changes.

In 1972 I went to Biggin Hill to learn to fly, having done some homework I selected and went to a club offering the tailwheel training I required. An unfriendly welcome ensued and I remember the CFI didn't even get out of his chair on the other side of the clubroom. He just talked loudly at me through the other people. The impression I received from him was, 'why should I waste my time talking to this 17 year old kid?'. I eventually ended up in Air Touring's clubhouse. They were friendly and professional, and took me seriously; so I learned to fly with them. I was paying £8.65p per hour which was actually more than the unfriendly club; but it was worth it as a customer!

The commercial rules and standards in the flying game have always been - well - different.

[rnzoli]

rrizoli A customer is important and merits every consideration. No amount of semantics can change that.Fine, no problem :) I just have to confess, that I am one of those opportunistic bastards, who wasted several CFI's precious hours with my never-ending questions and in the end I chose to train somewhere else. I always went in with a naive smile, asked questions from pre-written notes, booked time for additional discussions (NOT flights!), so I looked very serious, but when everyone thought they "bagged" or "pawned" me, I chose the one that suited my interests best for the goal, and left the others somewhat disappointed for sure. I was bordering on being a parasyte, but it was OK for me, because in my work, I am doing something similar (unfortunately). But I certainly didn't get offended, when I wasn't offered any cofee! :)

Nevertheless, when someone asked me recently, which school I recommend for his initial training out of the 2 I tried already, I told him honestly the advantages/disadvantages, and then straight away recommended him to book introduction flights with both. With literally waving his money, he was greeted with wide open arms in both places, he paid for both intro flights, and made a consious decision, which he still is happy about.

Moral of my story: if someone behaves like a very serious, goal-focused person, he/she will get a much more serious and devoted reception, than someone who is just appearing "slightly curious". We can say this is right, we can say this is wrong, but this is how it has always been, and will be for a long time to come.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The impression I received from him was, 'why should I waste my time talking to this 17 year old kid?'.
I once had the same in a grocery shop - I was completely ignored by the staff whilst they continually served other customers over my head.


Pure sexism. They just could not get it into their heads that a boy had been sent out to do the grocery shopping. In the end my mother turned up to find out why I'd been taking so long.

[Heston]

Here you go:

A bit of help with what a propect is.

http://image.slidesharecdn.com/crmstrategy-100104103750-phpapp02/95/crm-strategy-20-638.jpg?cb=1415389788

[FREDAcheck]

Well, that "Ladder of Loyalty" makes it pretty clear why a street-smart, savvy business will realise that a prospect is not commercially deserving of much courtesy.

Milton Friedman famously said that "the business of business is business". No room for sentimentality or charity, no "niceness" except that which is likely to increase profit. A business (according to Friedman) has no social responsibility except to make money.

However, businesses are run by humans, and one hopes that humans might display some humanity: courtesy, friendliness and so on. Or should that be suppressed during working time in the interests of the business?

[Capt Kremmen]

Where does 'customer' feature on your 'Ladder' ?

Marketing? = All style and no substance !

[Heston]

Customer = client on that diagram.

[Heston]

Well, that "Ladder of Loyalty" makes it pretty clear why a street-smart, savvy business will realise that a prospect is not commercially deserving of much courtesy.

Not at all. The business needs to be courteous to everybody because it is trying to move them up the ladder. Trying to turn a prospect into a customer/client and so on up the ladder.

But what it does tell you is that a loyal client, or supporter, or advocate deserves the loyalty of the business in return - indeed they are entitled to expect it.

That means that if I'm standing at the reception desk of the flight school in a ten minute break and two people arrive at the same time to speak to me, one is a stranger and one is a student half way through their training lets say, then spending time talking to the stranger because they might just possibly become a student while I ignore the existing student because I've already got their business and it doesn't matter if I fob them off - is wrong. WRONG.

What I should do is quickly find out what the stranger wants and then politely ask them to come back another time, or whatever is most appropriate, so that I can deal with the issue that the existing student wants to raise. Because they have paid for my loyalty to them.

I do not understand how this is being discourteous to anybody.

[Capt Kremmen]

Well, it is certainly prioritising even if that prioritising is plainly wrong from a business point of view. You're arguing your point in the teeth of a lot of opposition. We can't all be wrong !

[FREDAcheck]

...spending time talking to the stranger because they might just possibly become a student while I ignore the existing student because I've already got their business and it doesn't matter if I fob them off - is wrong. WRONG.

Commercially WRONG or morally WRONG? Or indeed is there even a difference? As there is a commercial arrangement with the existing customer, does that imply a moral obligation to be nice to them, rather than anyone else?

One is obliged to put first the interests of those with whom one has a commercial relationship?

[Heston]

One is obliged to put first the interests of those with whom one has a commercial relationship?

Yes. Morally that is the right thing to do, because that is part of the reciprocal loyalty that is part of the relationship that you have. Its also commercially the right thing to do because that existing customer is worth far more to you than a prospect who in all probability will buy from someone else whatever you do to be nice. rnzoli explained that earlier.

CK seems to be saying that I should cr*p on my existing customers. I'm sure he's confused as to exactly what his argument is. Plainly he doesn't know what he's talking about and is just trying to annoy me.

My best advice now to you guys is to go read this

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GnWb64WML._AA160_.jpg

[Baikonour]

Thanks for that Heston.

Now we know where you have gained your marketing skills from.:D

B.

[rnzoli]

What I should do is quickly find out what the stranger wants and then politely ask them to come back another time, or whatever is most appropriate, so that I can deal with the issue that the existing student wants to raise. Because they have paid for my loyalty to them.
Except when the student already paid everything up-front in cash. ;)
In that case, I would send the student away politely (he is already "locked"), and deal with the newcomer instead. I would also try to convince very kindly and politely the new guy to pay everything up-front, too! :}

(This would of course destroy my business in a matter of weeks or months, due to the bad references.)

We have a similar dilemma regarding aircraft booking. In every system, there is a risk that the a/c won't return in time for some reason, and the next guy will have his plans ruined and will heavily protest. Who is going to be punished? (The answer: the guy who flies less and makes less profit for the operators, i.e., doesn't depend on being 1st or 2nd.)

[Capt Kremmen]

Heston,

I recognise intransigence when it hits me on the chin. None of those including me who oppose your rather basic interpretation of customer relations will ever convince you that you might, even to some degree, be wrong.

"Marketing for Dummies" has obviously failed you; you need a new bible, I suggest: "How to Win Friends & Influence People". If nothing else, it might make you a nicer person.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Heston,
No new prospect would expect anyone in the school/club to drop everything they're doing to give undivided attention, thereby inconveniencing current students/members.
What would be good business practise would be to find a colleague who does have time to spare, or to say something along the lines of "listen, I'm just off to take this student flying, but if you want to hang around, have a coffe etc, I'll be back in 40 mins and would like to talk you through this then, or would a later time suit you to meet for a chat?"
Business is about selling. Don't loose the sale, even if it is only the "prospect" of one, and even if you are an instructor or a receptionist. Flying schools need every employee to be a salesman/woman.
And by the way, it will depend on how you treat your prospects & purchasers to determine how high they will go up your ladder!!

But come on, this is BASIC business principles and you know it.

[Heston]

But that's precisely my point all along! The OP and others did expect everything to be dropped for them.
Business is about providing great customer service - which sells itself with the help of a little communication effort.
Now I really am out of here.

[herman the crab]

The OP's experience sounds much like mine back in 1995 ish.

I lived 20 minutes away and it would have been ideal to learn there. I ended up coming to California to learn instead. Saved ££££££ fell in love with the US lifestyle and now happily married to a US girl.

At the time I was looking I faxed or emailed every school I could find in the UK and the USA. I only had 2 schools even bother to reply in the UK, out of 50 odd schools I contacted in the USA only ONE failed to make contact with me.

HTC

[alex90]

Heston,

The funny thing is that your last post highlights a misunderstanding in this thread.

I don't think anyone can reasonably expect a business to bend-over for prospective clients, I don't think that was what was mentioned in any of the posts. Most of these posts were highlighting common courtesy and basic common sense for any business. I agree with you Heston that current customers should be rewarded for their loyalty

The OP was saying that he went into a flying school in the hope for it to become his new ATO to complete his PPL ( I read between the lines as "student eager to get cracking" ). Who walks into the flying school on a mucky day, talks to the CFI who gives him a whole 2 minute chat and refuses for him or any other staff not seemingly doing anything useful due to grounded aeroplanes (resulted by weather) to have a quick look at the planes (that are just sitting there).

Now I am not an expert in human psychology, but this does seem rather unpleasant, and should that have been me, I too would have gone to look elsewhere for someone who is grateful for the business.

But perhaps there is a good reason for this... Ie... Badly maintained planes? Door seals leaking?

The second experience, well I am not one to judge as I personally would have booked a trial lesson with them and asked for a little ground-time for a chat before the flight, rather than "turn up for a chat" (concept I find a little weird TBH, what on earth could you chat about for an hour!?). But again, there is no need for that kind of behaviour, he could probably have just said that he was out of coffee OWTTE. But it would depend on the words the OP used with the gentleman too!


Anyway - recap - only thing I think most people are saying is that you should be courteous to anyone who comes through your door. Not bending over backwards though!

[Capt Kremmen]

Perhaps more to the point, is that if you don't 'bend over backwards' to welcome your customer, someone else will.

I don't think that we've ever been at the stage when customers are 'ten a penny'.

[ChampChump]

Just a quick comment from my (second) career, in what was effectively Customer Service. It takes a few seconds to acknowledge one person politely while dealing with another. Something along the lines of 'I'll be able to give you my undivided attention in a minute' lets all parties know that you care. It's not either/or, it has to be both. Eye contact & reading body language especially useful.

[abgd]

When I was searching for a school to do my PPL I must have contacted a dozen - on 2 occasions as the first time round time simply didn't permit. I suspect there will be a lot of aspirational PPLs who want to test the waters but simply can't find the time or money to pursue things further.

So for those in the business: what is the ratio of prospective clients to serious customers? 10:1. 100:1? I can easily see how you might get jaded if you're sitting at the phone all day talking to peniless aviation buffs who ultimately never take things further.

[londonblue]

We have a similar dilemma regarding aircraft booking. In every system, there is a risk that the a/c won't return in time for some reason, and the next guy will have his plans ruined and will heavily protest. Who is going to be punished? (The answer: the guy who flies less and makes less profit for the operators, i.e., doesn't depend on being 1st or 2nd.)

One of the reasons I left the club I was flying with and bought a share in my own plane was because of exactly that type of thing.

I had a plane booked for a whole day because I was taking my wife to France. The evening before my flight I popped into the club to prepare the paper work to make the morning a lot smoother. By that time of the day all the next day's bookings had been added to the wall.

I notice that my day had been hijacked by another member who had got one of the staff to erase my booking so that he could have the plane. I now only had a 2 hour slot from 10.00-12.00.

Obviously I asked what had happened, but the guy in the office was on the phone. When he got off the phone I asked again. He told me I was in luck because he had just put the phone down from the guy who had booked my slot, and he couldn't make it, so I could have the plane the whole day after all.

I pointed out that a) just because this guy had been a member longer doesn't give you the right to amend my booking in his favour, b) no-one had even had the courtesy to call me and discuss, and c) he was the one in luck because he wouldn't have been flying that day because I was still going to France, and wouldn't have been back until sometime in the afternoon.

It wasn't long after that episode that I left the club.

[rnzoli]

Interesting story.
But I guess even with a share, you still need to do some co-ordination (time booking) among the owners, correct?

However there is no hierarchy in that structure, so it's more about agreeing to ensure everyone can fly happily, rather than competing and hijacking, right?

[GAAV8R]

I must lead a sheltered life as I have not experienced poor customer service from GA flying schools any more than I have in any other industry sectors. But then, I haven't been to Shoreham, yet :)

Although he seems thoroughly capable himself, in defence of Heston, he has never said one should ignore or be rude to prospects, but that one shouldn't put them ahead of existing customers.

I sort of agree with that; if someone is about to put some cash into my bank account (at hopefully a profit), then I would want to make sure they are suitably attended to. However, a business needs to turn prospects into customers and I think what Heston has omitted is that one has to quickly qualify their prospects as a valid opportunity or tyre kicker. This is more an art than anything else, and it can sometimes not be accurate - part of the cost of doing business. Once one has determined the true opportunity presented by the prospect, one would accord the prospect the appropriate level of attention.

Like Heston, I would not advocate rudeness or, even as in the OP's experience, being sent somewhere else for a coffee as in that case as a) he wasn't wasting anyone's time flicking through the Ops manual and b) if he wasn't offended, then after his coffee he would have returned when the instructor arrived to "waste" the instructor's time...

[londonblue]

Interesting story.
But I guess even with a share, you still need to do some co-ordination (time booking) among the owners, correct?

However there is no hierarchy in that structure, so it's more about agreeing to ensure everyone can fly happily, rather than competing and hijacking, right?

In about 5 years I've only once had one clash with another member of the group. And he had the courtesy to call me to discuss. It turned out he wanted to fly early morning, and me in the afternoon so it wasn't even an issue.

At the club, it was about a member who had been there a lot longer than me, and was pally with the owner. He persuaded him to override my booking.

[rnzoli]

I need to look for something similar.

The problem I see in my environment is that the entry-level (cheap) airplanes in the schools/clubs are nearly fully booked with trainings, and it's the instructors, who override bookings of ordinary PPLs, or simply take the aircraft despite your booking. And the same instructors don't cancel their bookings in the system, when their student cancels the appointment. So we have a "we will gladly teach you to fly, but after that, we'll screw you, mwhahahaha" situation :)

[Inverted pilot]

Wow, grumpy was an understatement. Despite his advanced years, I am used to finding dragons at the doors to the Airport Lounges, not at the "first impression" stage of a business that I would have imagined would be chomping at the heels of new business.
Ha ha ha - Get over yourself and man up. I can tell you right now that particular Flying club wouldn't want your money and Im sure you wouldn't be welcome there as student if you are basing the criteria for choosing who to keep you alive in the skies and train you to become a pilot by the way the reception/desk staff smile at you. Its certainly your your loss. I'd say Im in a pretty good position to make a good judgement of Shoreham flying schools having flown with just about every school on the airfield in the 15 years iv'e been flying. I Also gained my wings in USA and fly a great deal there but you don't want to burn your bridges in the UK's small aviation community. Perry Air look after me with revalidations/ check rides/ tail dragger training and are all round top guys. Perry Air have stood the test of time for a reason. They are the most dedicated flying school on the field. They have one of the most varied and interesting fleets of aircraft and the owner is passionate and has a very vested interest in his pupils. I'd say your certainly not going to be passing any flight future check rides with this club after your futile comments. I'd broaden your criteria for finding a suitable club to join if I was you and good luck. The airfield is small community and you have already done a great job in alienating yourself.

[FullWings]

Blimey. Is Shoreham the nearest airfield to Royston Vasey?