Norwegian VS Ryanair

[capfo]

Hey guys, here is my question;

As a 737 FO, more than 1000 on type and 3000 total, which one would you prefer to work for, Ryan or Norwegian??

- Salaries
- Type of contracts
- Roster
- Time to upgrade
- Various (uniforms, sims, ...)

Note: I´m too old to join BA

Ta!

[de facto]

Who would you rather represent?

[november.sierra]

With regards to who is better to work for, I would say it depends very much on your personal circumstances.

Ryanair will offer you permanent employment with a pension contribution and a fixed 5-4 roster with no scheduled overnights. If you live near a Ryanair base and you're lucky enough to be based at home, your quality of life increases enormously, however basing seems to be a little bit of a lottery with no guarantees and no seniority list to govern who goes where and when. Alternatively, I believe the option to work as a self employed contractor through McGinley is still available and there is plenty of info about this arrangement on here. Time to upgrade if you join meeting the requirements can be as little as 6 months, but the downside is that you will most likely have to move base upon completion and the base lottery starts all over again. You will have to cover all job related expenses, i.e. uniforms, license, medicals, transport, hotels and there is no crew food.

Norwegian is a different kettle of fish. You will be offered permanent employment, however it is permanent employment with an agency that is partially owned by Norwegian and salary, pension contributions etc are currently being negotiated with local unions. There aren't as many bases to choose from and Scandinavia is off limits for now, so you're looking at Helsinki, Rome, various Spanish bases and Gatwick. The company is heavily unionised and base allocation is based strictly on the Master Seniority List, so it may take a while to get your base of choice. The operation includes a fair amount of overnights and the roster is variable, published 1 month in advance and includes 12 days off per month. As far as command is concerned, expect at least 2 years and there is a tough evaluation process to get through before being accepted on a course. You have the option to go to long haul on the 787 if you wish, internal applicants get preferential treatment. All job related expenses are reimbursed, uniform and crew meals are provided. Job stability is less than at Ryanair, with redundancies having occurred in the winter for the last 2 years.

The differences in pay between the 2 companies are negligeable, it's much of a muchness, with Ryanair offering a slightly better deal as far as I know.

[captplaystation]

You are going "soft" mate ? or what. . . .


I too resisted responding really, having been kicked out from 1 for being "disloyal", (judgement still pending) & bullied by the other into paying up to keep the solicitors off my back for contentious postings in the past.


In any case, november.sierra pretty much summarised it, NAS a bit more "touchy/feely" (but it is all , in fact, a bit of a charade) & carries risks particularly as regards ongoing employment/command/base stability


Ryanair . . . well, how many threads can you read on here, how many days/weeks do you have to read them all.

Doubt if you would wish to spend your days there, but, with a decent base (meaning somewhere you live /or are happy to live , which happens to have a "human being" as a Base Capt ,some do , some don't) it is quite a pleasant way to amass experience whilst you figure out (or try to ) what is actually "better" at the moment (if you do, please let the rest of us know Eh ? ) for your next move.

Advantages are, "transparent" progression to Command, number of bases available (don't mention the system for acquiring one ) year round employment (see NAS employment history for Winter 2014 & 2015 ) no distraction from your professional responsibilities by permanently spending time on wifi :D

[captplaystation]

capfo,

I have just reread your original post.

I would imagine your priority , at this time, is seat swap. . . . .if that is the case, Ryanair are the simple solution. They need you, you need them. If I understand you need 2 Sims (so 12mths ) & if they are at the standard required you will enter the "Command" process.

Norwegian, well, a little less simple. A whole load of guys who didn't fancy pay -cut /base change to swap seats , who were pretty much "Command ready" in FR, bailed out & joined NAS in Spring 2014 with implied "rapid Commands". . . .it didn't pan out that way, DEC's were recruited continually, & some actually went back, disillusioned by the Salmon Pink Glasses they had donned. Base stability WILL affect you if you have your Command in FR, but, it will hit you even sooner if joining NAS as an FO, the last 2 Winters have seen lots of "enforced" changes, doubt this is likely to change.

I have spent the last 18mths or so , recommending FO's to join FR in preference to NAS, if you had told me this 4 years ago I would have asked that you (or I ) be certified , how times/things change.

[maybepilot]

Up to a few years ago NAS would have been the undisputed choice between the two gigs; however things have changed and nowadays RYR is probably a better and more stable option.
Being able to choose one should avoid both of them.

[tomuchwork]

November.Sierra said it more or less already.

Ryanair:
As a Captain(it seems they are short of them which is a good thing being a Captain ^^) it seems they are very keen to offer your first base choice in the contract. Be aware that they may change that without big notice and force you to move to a new base. So, make a wise choice(e.g. a big, medium one) base wise.

If you are tired of nightstops and this bloody 6/2 or even 7/2 with the occasional 4 days in a row/month then Ryanair is the place to be. Preferably on the Ryanair contract as the "agency"(yes, it is still there, is even being offered during interview) one makes you most likely to be a "jumper".

Typerating is now finally paid by the company, only have to sign a bond(25.000 Euro/5 years). If you get something better, no big deal without paying a TR upfront.

Norwegian: Don't know really much about them but what I recently heard about them would not make me want to go there.
Got a look at the UK 787 contracts and honestly, it is avery poor paid job(Capt.787). And for that I have to do longhaul, destroy my sleep pattern and hang around again in hotels? Naa.
Norwegian 737? NO idea? Might be better, doubt it.

[RTO]

I guess the old saying is still valid. Both Norwegian and Ryanair will treat you like sh*t, but Ryan will be honest about it and Norwegian will lie to you and blow sunshine up your rear end. I am always puzzled by november.sierra's posts, he is either a firm believer in lies and evil propaganda or part of the degenerate handful of people that produces them. How is being heavy unionized a bad thing?(even if Norwegian is not). If the MSL did work as intended, you could actually partially have a life, as you would have more base stability instead of being shuffled around Europe like trash.

[november.sierra]

RTO, I'm neither a believer in evil propaganda, lies, nor am I part of the degenerate handful of people that produces them, as you so eloquently put it. I merely present facts and leave people to make up their own mind.

FYI, I never said that the airline being heavily unionised is a bad thing, quite the opposite, at least there is a voice, there is representation and the MSL does work as intended, so you clearly don't know what you're talking about and my guess is that you definitely don't fly aeroplanes with a red nose for a living.

Yes, base stability is an issue, and it is an issue in both airlines. Seasonal demands dictate this, and neither of the 2 airlines is perfect in this regard. Again, all I'm doing is presenting facts and people have to make up their own minds considering which best suits their personal circumstances. In the words of US senator Daniel Moynihan: everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts! Once again, all I do is provide facts as numerous people have acknowledged on this very thread.

[jedy]

Been on both gigs so I'll try to sum it up as close as I can.
1) same ****
2) same lie
3) different uniform

[RTO]

there is representation and the MSL does work as intended
november.sierra: Do you really think the MSL work as intended when you have to quit your permanent position in Scandinavia and accept a mediocre contract with a dubious agency, if that MSL privilege is to be exercised? Termination of insurances an pension was not part of the MSL idea.

[maybepilot]

Been on both gigs so I'll try to sum it up as close as I can.
1) same ****
2) same lie
3) different uniform

Couldn't be more accurate!
:D

[november.sierra]

Fact is, whether we like it or not, that the powers that be have decided there is to be no further expansion in Scandinavia for the time being. This initially put K-area FO's in a difficult situation as there was no chance for command. Now the company, in accordance with the MSL, has decided that any K-area FO eligible for command upgrade, can be upgraded provided that they resign and instead sign an OSM Euro base contract. Base allocation as per MSL.

The fact that there's no expansion in Scandinavia is something the unions or the MSL have no control over, so at least upgrades are being done in accordance with the MSL. Previously, there was NO upgrades for K-area FO's and the only upgrades being done were Euro bases, FACT.

[RTO]

The MSL brings nothing to the table. If a K-area FO wanted to quit the company and seek employment in another airline abroad, he could do just that.

[Kudlaty]

Hey guys,

Does anyone have any information about the current situation regarding employment in Norwegian during winter season?
I read that in 2014 and 2015 they gave an ultimatum to a lot of pilots to either take an unpaid leave or quit the company... Did the same happen this winter? Have they undertaken any strategies to improve the situation?
Thanks for any replies!

[RTO]

Hey guys,

Does anyone have any information about the current situation regarding employment in Norwegian during winter season?
I read that in 2014 and 2015 they gave an ultimatum to a lot of pilots to either take an unpaid leave or quit the company... Did the same happen this winter? Have they undertaken any strategies to improve the situation?
Thanks for any replies!
Nothing is being done to remedy the situation. During winter the operation is run with an extreme shortage of crew. In summertime they trick people into signing 2 year contracts for LGW and tell them on the first day that its gonna be 6 months in Oslo instead. Come winter you are all fired again.

[Kudlaty]

Fantastic news.... So did the same happen this winter?
Why are they recruiting now if they have been laying people off for half a year for the past 3 years???

[TypeIV]

It's just the third miscalculation by the crew planners. Don't worry it won't happen again.

[captplaystation]

I doubt it is an "honest mistake" by the Crew Planners, and would be more inclined to believe it has been (repeatedly) another cynical attempt to recreate a facet of the "Ryanair model", that rather ironically, Ryanair are themselves slowly moving away from.

If it was just that, a simple miscalculation, the company would have in all likelihood bit the bullet, picked up the tab, and kept people employed over Winter . . . . there was no miscalculation here, believe me. :=

[Kudlaty]

If they are recruiting now, the TR courses will probably start in September, until people are qualified it would be November.
So here is my question again, because I cannot get my head around that: what's the point of hiring now to put new FO's on the line in late autumn if the airline has the strategy of laying people off in winter?

[wonder88]

...and they are about to sign a deal with FTE Jerez to take on their cadets as well as the self sponsored TR scheme they recently opened up. WTF is the long term thinking here???? :ugh:

[TypeIV]

I doubt it is an "honest mistake" by the Crew Planners, and would be more inclined to believe it is has been (repeatedly another cynical attempt to recreate a facet of the "Ryanair model", that rather ironically, Ryanair are themselves slowly moving away from.

At least the Irish are honest and they even put the winter shafting in your contract

[Kudlaty]

Yeah but what I've heard in Ryanair it's only a month rather than 6 months in Norwegian... (please correct me if I'm wrong)
On the other hand I think if one flies approx 800 hrs a year, a month off is a nice break for holidays.

Does anyone have any information on how many pilots Norwegian has and how many have been laid off for winter?

[eduelp]

As a 737 FO, more than 1000 on type and 3000 total, which one would you prefer to work for, Ryan or Norwegian??


None of them?

[SierraEchoCharlie]

As an FTE cadet who would you prefer to work for?

[tripulante521]

In Norwegian they are more polite and treat you a bit better but they are quite disorganized at the moment and training might take for ever. In Ryanair they are better organized for training and the command upgrade is certainly quicker but they treat you like a number with almost no respect.

[captplaystation]

SierraEchoCharlie "As an FTE cadet who would you prefer to work for?"


Well, history suggests the choice is fairly straightforward & it doesn't just apply to Cadets, equally applicable to experienced FO's looking for a "structured" / "transparent" path to Command, permanent year round employment, and some Base stability.

The last 2 Winters NA(?) . . . too many permutations to enter the last letter . . . . has layed pilots off / forced some to take unpaid leave / forced some to take 50% work / told others (who had paid for the TR with them ) to come back in 6mths or pay the Bond NOW ! / changed bases for many who were quite happy in their European mainland base due to reduced production ( a Winter in the Canaries is very pleasant, but it didn't suit many who commute ) / changed during their OCC the bases/ contracts/ type of employment they thought they had just signed for from Spain/ Gatwick to Scandinavia . . . . sign here or leave the course being the 2 options on offer / changed agencies & threatened those who didn't appreciate the "new kid on the block" with termination due to their obvious wish not to continue their career in Norwegian :yuk: even though they are not actually employed by Norwegian/ Introduced a new AOC & associated system that has completely failed to roster/train/organise the flying programme with anything approaching the level enjoyed by Contractors operating under the "NAS" regime up in Norway. Allowed (nay encouraged I would wager ) their preferred pilot "employer" to issue bullying emails as regards providing documentation, satisfying Govt agencies etc during their own time, with the implied or actual threat of dismissal if anyone dissented.


Meanwhile, Ryanair, whilst not exactly on a charm campaign, have continued to provide year round employment , base stability (unless you are at one of the mercifully few bases that are a bit "seasonal") roster stability, & transparent /rapid progression to Command. Yes there are more (false ) smiles from Fornebu, but I prefer an honest scowl to a two-faced stab in the back by a "smiling assassin".

The choice (as Cilla Black used to say ) is yours, &, I am shocked to find myself suggesting that Blue / Yellow may be a better choice than Red/White, but, as the "Norwegian Way" rears it's ugly head now the constraints of the Scandinavian employment model have been well & truly cast aside, my recommendations of 4 years ago (which I followed) are turned on their head. Inflight wifi is fine, but it loses its sheen when, via this medium, you find out 4 hrs into a 5hr sector that you appear to have been summarily dismissed for publishing truthful (Oh dear can't have that := ) comments on here & the company internal forum during the pilot strike (without the simple courtesy being extended of someone actually contacting you , to inform you of the fact)

Freemasonic sycophants, if thats what floats your boat, good luck with it.

[tomuchwork]

My 10 cents having dealed with Norwegian Recruitment(agency) and doing the Ryanair Interview(DEC, passed).

Captainplaystation is quiet "spot on" with his post. I personally had as well so mayn promises and false smiles when I joined some outfits just to discover that my contract is not worth the paper it is written on(this includes ALL ME carriers, as most of you are anyway aware of. Still remember my QR contract...).

Surprisingly, and very refreshing, the Ryanair guys did nothing like that on my interview, they told me which contract options are available, differences, bases, salary , benefits(lol). I knew most of it but it is nice that nobody tries to sell you the airline. Even the HR guys asked if we understood everything because he does NOT want to have anyone pissed off upon joining because they thought and expected something different.

I like that. That's why I joined and that's why as well I cancelled my application with Norwegian(even before I passed the RYR interview because for them I would not leave my old employer).

If someone is up for the risk not having a job over the winter season just for the chance to fly a bloody 787, well, then they are maybe worth a shot. I have different "needs" (permanent contract, relativ safe base - of course if you choose one of the smallest ones then don't complain if they close it down, being home every night, relativ good pay for a Captain).

[7574ever]

Interesting experience. If I were you I wouldn't expect that kind of open attitude to remain after you have actually started working... Just a heads up!

[Kulito]

Stay away from Nas/Nai this is a complete disaster everything have changed in two years . Much better to try Ryr at least they don't lie you . Much more stable and serious company .

[172_driver]

Meanwhile, Ryanair, whilst not exactly on a charm campaign, have continued to provide year round employment ,

..if year round employment means sitting on 3-4 unpaid standbys per working block .


On a serious note, you can approach that dilemma in many ways. Budget on X amount of hours per year and plan your life accordingly. However, the range of hours flown in different bases per year could vary significantly.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Regarding Norwegian is there safer bases to be at regarding forced leave in winter months. I know a few new cadets and the bases that are being talked about for them include : BCN, AGP , TFS
Are these bases "safer" or a disaster for the winter months?
Appreciate any information from insiders

[disco87]

Basically, no (in my opinion). It has always been the last joiners that have been 'fired' for the winter, first time around it was 3 months. This year they had the wonderful opportunity to have 6 months, so you may be in any base due to 'production' needs and still be turfed out when they deem you to be surplus to requirements.

Will that happen this year? Who knows but as they promised that after the first time it was a special case I know what I think will happen.

Unfortunately for us, the author of post #28 has been saying it like it is for a long time.....

[captplaystation]

If you are in TFS or LPA Winter is no problem, but less production in Summer, so maybe you have to change base. If you are in BCN , AGP , ALC & you are most junior, expect to spend Winter in the Canaries. LGW/HEL (MAD/FCO ? ) stable year-round production, but, as stated above, if you are most recent entry, don't worry about base change, worry about having some unwanted unpaid leave (or if you are lucky 50% pay cut :})

[Kulito]

Plus no payment when on deadhead flights , no payment during traning (only ground school), no payment increase ( you'll be earing the same after 5,6... years ), no CLA, no union recognition, hotels quality getting worse, Irish crew control a complete disaster ...

[Widebdy]

Worked in both. Left both. Norwegian, in my opinion, was streets of ahead Ryanair ahead even with its ""issues".

[captplaystation]

Would have agreed with you in 2012, but the gap has narrowed considerably, and in some respects has opened up, but in favour of the "real" Irish carrier.

[Kulito]

It's not Nas anymore nowadays Nai/OSM rules the circus ,everything changed six month ago .

[speed_alive_rotate]

@Kulito ; Are you working for NAI ? What are the chances of winter lay offs again this year??
Regards SAR

[Kulito]

Nobody knows just let get closer to winter time to see what happen, last two years they have being doing it.

[Direct Bondi]

This winter may be different. It appears that Orient Ship Management, OSM, has been requested not to provide, or is unable to provide, sufficient pilots to cause any layoff.

As reported today, May 4, in Norway’s leading (by circulation) newspapers; DN, E24, Aftenposten and Dagbladet:

“Pilot Association:- Norwegian is understaffed pilots”. In response, Norwegian admits their management incompetence;

“It is correct not good enough internal planning meant that we did not have enough pilots for a period”.

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/2016/05/04/0527/pilotforening--norwegian-er-underbemannet-p-piloter

“…..pilots and cabin crew are being encouraged to work extra”

http://e24.no/jobb/norwegian-air-shuttle/pilotforening-norwegian-er-underbemannet-paa-piloter/23674557

“In one message from early April, it says there is general lack of cabin crew and pilots on all Norwegian bases”

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Pilotforening---Norwegian-har-for-fa-flyvere-8455849.html

“Norwegian’s reputation amongst pilots in freefall”

http://www.dagbladet.no/2016/05/04/nyheter/pluss/luftfart/fly/norwegian/44082579/

[Kulito]

Even requesting the crews cooperation to work during days off due to lack of them they kept on people on 50% unpaid leave . Some flights were cancelled and many guys were at home unpaid leave oblied , make nonsense.

[Kulito]

Some still owe them type rating, some at home , everybody have a different reason ,others leaving or considering to leave.

[tripulante521]

"As reflected in our company slogan «It’s all about people», the core of OSM Aviation is our employees."
It's all about people????.It's all about exploiting people, you mean...

[drex_11]

tripulante can you explain why? We hardly get in here more infos about NAS other than it's a bad airline. But could you guys tell more about the company? As the author started with, what's the roster like? Can anybody tell about base, training, pay, benefits, good points/bad points?
With more infos it could really help to make our own opinion. Thank you

[Direct Bondi]

“It's all about people???? It's all about exploiting people, you mean...”

It should be no surprise Kjos was named Leader of the Year by Manpower Group, which specializes in “large scale outsourced recruitment initiatives”. In an interview with Nettavisen, Managing Director of Manpower, Maalfrid Brath, said of Kjos:-

“He has built a business idea into HR area, while he has actively exploited the opportunities that the competitive situation has given in relation to HR”

http://www.nettavisen.no/na24/2754932.html

After crew members were sent “threatening text messages” from Norwegian’s henchmen, Norway labor union PARAT may propose an alternative accolade:-

http://www.thelocal.no/20140507/norwegian-shocks-union-with-sms-threat

To my knowledge, Kjos has never won any award for promoting the Scandinavian reputation and ideology for quality of working life, although a number of prominent people and organizations have suggested Kjos qualifies for a global racing award….

[drex_11]

Sorry Bondi but that's not helping.. Important to know but not helping.. Anybody else please?

[lear999wa]

I think if you have a read on pprune you will come across a lot of not so positive details about life in Norwegian or shall I say OSM.

But if you choose not to listen or believe what has been posted I will make a short summery.

-if you don't hold enough seniority, you will be made redundant during the winter mounts, yes captains also. Every year they say it won't happen again. But it does.

-they will promise you a permanent contract and then they will find a way out of giving one to you. Ask Lgw pilots if you don't believe me.

-they will promise local terms and conditions and again find a way out of doing that.

-they say that they follow the master seniority list and again only when it convenient for mgmt.

-constant roster changes, no roster stability.

-constant overnights in crap hotels, yes you will need to make your own way to the hotel with public transport.

-crap crew meals.

-constant positioning, yes deadheading crew will now have to board as last.

-night flights, checkin at midnight checkout in the morning. With rostering hounding you to operate later that day after minimum rest.

-Inhumane duty days (but legal). As an example Lpa Tos 7 hours block time and passive back.
Fdp 8:30 hours and 16 hour duty day.

-30 days of annual leave, reduced to 18 actual leave days. Legal, who knows, but they do it anyway.

-oh and have I mentioned the morale is low. How low you ask well everyone who can get out is getting out.

-And don't think that you will be getting any staff travel on the other fleet. Apparently we our all one family. But forget about it.

The general feeling in the company is of mismanagement and resignation. I.e no one cares. If there is a problem the answer is always to Wet-lease.

[niss]

Spot on lear999wa

[captplaystation]

I heard an interesting rumour yesterday regarding outsourcing of Core production , whilst still using the same airframes/cabin crew but A..N Other AOC/Flight Deck crew . . . . just a "Rumour" for the moment, but, if it comes to pass it will be another low for this stinking regime. :yuk:



Oh, and Lear has described it exactly as it "really is" , not the sugar coated BS you will be fed at interview. . . . .

[TypeIV]

How can you call an interview sugar coated when you have to pay ticket, hotacc etc outta yer own lil pouch?

[captplaystation]

Interview isn't , but the "propaganda" promulgated at said occasion is . . . . . .

[tomuchwork]

Thanks lear999wa for that insight. I actually always thought Norwegian is not that bad, but based on what you wrote I am more then happy that I have chosen RYR instead. Well, mainly because I am tired of any night stops and finally starting AND finishing duty days at my homebase. That was making the deal for me honestly. Plus the money is not that bad as some guys always write. For a tired, medium aged airliner, sick of hotels and long haul the perfect escape I must confess. Was starting my airline career like that, start at homebase, finish at homebase, did that for 6 years in my young years. Then started with all that "beautiful" big airline and Longhaul BS, bored during flying and then hanging around in some nice, but far away from home hotel. And that all over and over and over again. Happy to sleep in my bed again, every night. Plus kids(don't know about the wife :-) ) are happy to see their dad again every day.

But paying your own transport going to a crew hotel is just ridiculous. Would do that only if I would get paid 15.000 Euro/Pound/USD, then I would not matter. I was wondering already when Norwegian was looking for 787 drivers and looking into the Capt salary. Did not impress me, honestly.

[lear999wa]

For the sake of being fare and balanced. The public transport to and from the hotel is payed for by the company.

[R T Jones]

Public transport to/from hotels....? Wow.

[tomuchwork]

That's a new low, for sure...

[captplaystation]

To perhaps confirm what I posted in post #51, I received this info today




The union in Norwegian has Cancelled Subpart E in the collective agremment, Which is selling off day. So from 30 june nobody will be able to sell a day off



One would have thought that lessons had been learned in Feb 2015 after the lengthy strike, but alas, that was merely a fierce battle in what NAS seem determined to continue as a "war till the death" . I guess flagging out Norwegian production will help with their Transatlantic applications. . . . Er, no.

[RAT 5]

The union in Norwegian has Cancelled Subpart E in the collective agremment, Which is selling off day. So from 30 june nobody will be able to sell a day off

28 years ago I worked for fledgling airline. The naive young pilots wanted to 'help the company'. So they worked on days off for nothing other than a faint promise of a simple day off in return; not even an extra day of your own choosing. The managers raped the company. Later it was discovered that the crewing levels were designed to be low, so not enough SBYs', on the assumption that crews would work on days off. Our salaries and T&C's were the lowest in the country. The company went bust 3 times before it was taken over and absorbed into a larger unit. The greed of the managers was astonishing. Still the naivety of the crews continued.
Selling a day off is perpetuating a weak structure. First discover why it should be necessary.

[captplaystation]

Cheaper to buy days off than hire extra crew, but, in NAS , selling a day off is very lucrative, and those who opt for 80% can easily recuperate the rest by working a couple of OFFs, so, it hurts the pilots to do this. . . . The last time this happened was Spring 2012, and there were 8 (or more) aircraft on wet lease to cover the shortfall in manpower of crew not working OFF days.

This time it is different, as the company is entering the final phase of their oft stated intention to destroy "Core Norwegian". Already there are many wet leases to cover the shortfall caused by NAS's refusal to expand Core to cover the Summer production.

The guys have 2 choices, accept the new arrangement & be screwed over the next 18-24mths, or go out in a blaze of glory & force NAS to do what they are serrupticiously doing anyhow, the destruction of the "Real Norwegian". . . . Personally I would go for the "Big Bang" & inflict as much stress/disruption/financial loss on the greedy little bar stewards as possible. . . if they are not ostracised by bought -in labour now, they will be in any case within a very short time span. Anyone harbouring any doubts over this showers suitability as an employer, should watch closely developments over the next few months & the answer will be very clearly seen. Sad end to a great company headed by someone who went from being very nearly a visionary, to a sad imitation of O' Leary, just as O' leary was stepping out of the limelight, the Norwegian public don't like this kind of crap & I hope they vote (in droves) with their feet, but they (probably ) won't.

[skyloone]

Sounds just like another few we all know. It seems that only the paint scheme changes. Don't get me started on the odd authorities interpretation or oversight of the regs either!



The union in Norwegian has Cancelled Subpart E in the collective agremment, Which is selling off day. So from 30 june nobody will be able to sell a day off

28 years ago I worked for fledgling airline. The naive young pilots wanted to 'help the company'. So they worked on days off for nothing other than a faint promise of a simple day off in return; not even an extra day of your own choosing. The managers raped the company. Later it was discovered that the crewing levels were designed to be low, so not enough SBYs', on the assumption that crews would work on days off. Our salaries and T&C's were the lowest in the country. The company went bust 3 times before it was taken over and absorbed into a larger unit. The greed of the managers was astonishing. Still the naivety of the crews continued.
Selling a day off is perpetuating a weak structure. First discover why it should be necessary.

[tomuchwork]

Working for free on an off day was normal way back 80's and 90's. Was the same at my first company. We got called, did them a favour, got maybe(not always) an other off day. That's it.

Again - times changed. Unfortunately not for the better(writes someone who flew for free in his young years on a off day, I know - but at least that means something ^^).

[A and C]

In the good old days of the charter airlines I would help them out by working a day off because almost all standbys ending up as days of and I was respected by the management who regarded be as a professional business traveler and used appropriate hotels.

In the lo-co life has changed, almost all STBY days end up as work and the rest you get after long working days and being sent to cheap scabby hotels is limited.

The result of this is not working days off is not any sort of revenge or political action aganst the management, it is simply a fatigue management tactic so that I am safe to fly on normal working days.

[RAT 5]

In the lo-co life has changed, almost all STBY days end up as work

The business model caused crewing levels to be at minimum and rosters all to max/min FTL's. Thus any disruption today caused a change in tomorrow. SBY's were not called out at departure time, but used in advance due to crews being out of rest hours for their next duty. SBY's were firefighters due to bad rostering practices and NOT for last minute disruption scenarios, which was their basic concept.

[captplaystation]

As I mentioned in post #51, here we have the "new Norwegian", replacing Scandinavian high-cost labour :hmm: with cheaper :D low-cost ACMI by go2sky. . . . . inspiring Huh ?


Sign at your peril



https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13327347_958031024314903_4877514615409199866_n.jpg?oh=fb5efd 49532afe38f818a08030ed060a&oe=57D6AE71

[MrSnuggles]

Interesting thread! Norwegian used to be a "threat" to SAS so I followed the news carefully about this.

Turns out, Norwegian mgmt was fed up with unions and regulations messing with shareholders money and moved the joint to Ireland a few years ago to take advantage of their most liberal taxation rules. Some crew were replaced with non-EU citizens, some had a salary cut. Others were laid off. Since then they have been running a somewhat acceptable circus. Do not expect anything like Norwegian labour laws at NAS! They are entirely non-Norwegian in their nature. Hiring and firing - doesn't matter, they do it with poise and arrogance. Mr Kjos is smiling at the cameras and then hiring Indonesians to do the dirty work.

When Norwegian first started, every other person was sooo excited here in Scandinavia, now we could travel for no money and still all the service! Still, I strongly advised my friends to choose anything else than NAS since it was too cheap to be true. (Of course I more or less forbid them to RYR anything!) Anyway, when it was still in Norway, I could give them the benefit of a doubt, but going rogue into Ireland....? Nah, not cool!

The glory of the moment has faded for Norwegian now. It has NOT helped, all those stranded pax all over the world. Their 787 fleet has had many mishaps, with airplanes having to be flown in to ferry pax to their destination because their designated 787 had "technical issues". It seems to have calmed down some lately though.

737 fleet also some hiccups, I'm sensing they could be maintenance related (because of their nature: lots of loose stuff, lost gaskets, misplaced pins, etc) but I don't have the inside gossip to verify this. Last I heard, some weeks ago, they had an incident with a tank overflowing and jet fuel dripping from the wing. Pax had to wait a few hours, lots of angry faces in the news, especially since this was not the first time this happened to this very flight.

Oh well, just the inputs from an interested bystander. If you don't really HAVE to, don't choose Norwegian. They are not AT ALL what they used to be before the move.

SAS is doing great btw. Last hiring period they had about five applicants per seat. Good times.

[Aluminium shuffler]

The bulk of the RYR guys that joined tried to go back to RYR, and for good reason. NAS continues to plumb new lows in the industry. Any decent regulator would shut it down, but they use the rubberstamping IAA to get away with anything they like. ICAO should be blacklisting Norwegian and the IAA alike.

[A and C]

That is the sort of statement that could get you into very hot water if you can't back it up.

[captplaystation]

Why am I so surprised . . . . . not, :hmm:

[johnnybgoode]

Norwegian seem to be offering 2year bonds on the 738 and believe I fall into this category. I don't have a type rating, but have always wanted to fly the 737 (as Im in corporate aviation) and later move on to bigger airlines, possibly the likes of EK or EY in a few years. If I had to take a bond, what is the likelihood of redundancy or reduced pay over winter months? Surely it wouldn't make sense to get rid of pilots that owed them money/time?

[tomuchwork]

@johnnybgoode

Well, at the end it is a choice to make(we all had to do that in our aviation lifes). It might be wrong, maybe right. Norwegian or RYR. Or someone else.

If you fly corporate(did that as well for a while, brrrrrrr, lot's of interesting memories) and you seriously want to "improve"(I was down there with ME dreamairlines) your life, why don't you go directly to EK. Their requirements are so low at the moment(as far as I know, piss in a straight line and breathe ^^) that even with just corporate time you should make it in. I think they even lowered it that much to fit EXACTLY the profile a lot of the corporate guys have. Give it a shot, spare you the time with the low cost if it is anyway not the thing you are looking for.

Especially, I don't think so many airline guys are really so keen to go down there(talking about Europeans), why would you change a not so great paid job, most likely in your home country, with social security and retirement(even if it is just state) to change for another not really so great paid job(if you think, they do NOT pay their share of social insurance and retirement to the state, so at the end EK is very cheap on that compared to any european airline. If you add up their contributions you easy reach an EK salary), flying far to much, sitting in a place where for at least 9 months/year it is far to hot and very expensive to live.
Not talking about the management mumbo jumbo, for that have a look in the ME forum in the EK threads. QR or the other one, unspeakable one ^^, is even worse.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Have any Ryanair pilots made the successful move back after their brief stint at Norwegian ?? Or are management of the opinion you made your choice now live with it?

[Avenger]

If you are a " core pilot" sitting on sub 800 hrs a year, fully protected, unionised and wrapped in cotton wool your view may be somewhat different to the " contractors" flogged for 950 plus hours with worthless contracts and no bargaining power. How many " core pilots" have been called to cover shortages at LGW compared with Spanish crews? Expense reports and fatigue reports go hand in hand at NAS, Many of these " contractors" were lured away with false promises and high hopes and now sit in the aviation wilderness.. at least with Ryanair you know the score from day one..the choice of frying pan ( RYR) or fire. ( NAS) ...pan tends to get evenly burnt, fire you are cremated.

[captplaystation]

A couple of Winters back the guys who had joined without TR were given the choice , take 4 mths OFF unpaid & come back, or leave, but you have to pay back the TR. The Union eventually got it diluted to less unpaid time off, and some people were given 50% with the salary deductions for TR suspended.

Some bods did indeed get back into RYR, depends on the circumstances in which you left, never burn bridges being the lesson. In most cases they had left to avoid taking low paid Command upgrade / base change & came to NAS with promise of rapid command which didn't materialise, so , felt it was better to retry "the devil you know" finally.

[RAT 5]

OMG: it's a sad sad world.

[tripulante521]

"The busiest time of year is right around the corner with millions of Norwegian customers about to go on vacation. Unfortunately, our summer operation is facing challenges due to erroneous planning causing considerable lack of pilots."

[RAT 5]

Bring back Sterling Mk.1.

[captplaystation]

If it was only "erroneous planning " . . . . . . . . . no doubt this phrase will be wheeled out again in the Autumn when they decide a certain percentage of the pilots will be only too happy to take unpaid /unrequested vacation to cater for their oft demonstrated totally inadequate organisational skills. (or is it, rather, actually merely a cynical attempt to cover seasonal variation in the simplest way possible ? )


A much bigger elephant in the room , and a greater part of the recruitment problem, is the change of company culture/mindset towards their employees.

That is a harder one to fix than merely screwing up recruitment numbers.

Not to worry, outsourcing production to go2fly employees will solve everything in short order :mad:


"Bring back Sterling Mk.1." Hmnn . . . if you knew some of the internal machinations / criteria for obtaining "appointments" , & those involved, you would quickly realise that the company could be better named "Danish" in preference to "Norwegian", & a base rechristened as a "Lodge".

[MrSnuggles]

A little human interest story, maybe reflecting upon what tripulante521 said:

"The busiest time of year is right around the corner with millions of Norwegian customers about to go on vacation. Unfortunately, our summer operation is facing challenges due to erroneous planning causing considerable lack of pilots."

Norwegian förstörde Erica och Almas Londonresa | Nyheter | Aftonbladet (http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article23077809.ab)

Flygbolaget Norwegian meddelade först att planet var försenat och skulle lyfta 16.45 och sedan 16.50.
– Strax efter fyra får jag ett sms från Norwegian att det var inställt. Det var många som var upprörda, säger Erica Nilsson.
[...]
Att flyget ställdes in skyller Norwegian på följdförseningar under dagen som slutligen resulterade i att personalen ombord på flight D82853 skulle överstiga lagstadgade arbetstidsbestämmelser.


My translation:

Norwegian first announced the flight would be late and would take off, first at 16:45, then at 16:50.
- A few minutes after 16, I get a text that the flight is cancelled. Many people were upset, says Erica Nilsson.
[...]
Norwegian claims that the cancelled flight was due to accumulated delays during the day, which eventually meant that the crew of flight D82853 would have to break working time regulations.

----

To set things straight: All passengers was offered the chance to re-book their tickets on any other Norwegian flight, or even get a refund. What I find interesting is that this took place in the first place, considering what you guys have said previously in this thread.

I would also like to point out that this is the image Norwegian have in Swedish media nowadays. Everything was very positive in the beginning, reports about our Norwegian neighbour accomplishing such a feat (as in: getting into the flying business, buying brand new high tech airplanes like the 787) were plenty.

[MrSnuggles]

Latest from Norwegian:

Piloter og kabinansatte vant over Norwegian - Norwegian Air Shuttle - Børs og Finans - E24 (http://e24.no/boers-og-finans/norwegian-air-shuttle/piloter-og-kabinansatte-vant-over-norwegian/23728447)

The union brought NAS to court for violating Norwegian employment rules. The court ruled in favour of the union.

Pilotene ble overført det heleide datterselskapet Norwegian Air Norway i 2013, og senere til bemanningsselskapet Pilot Services Norway i samme tidsrom som streiken på vårparten i 2015.
De kabinansatte ble overført til selskapet Cabin Services Norway i 2014.
Saken er tredelt: De ansatte mener både at Norwegian Air Shuttle er reell arbeidsgiver, at Norwegian Air Norway har drevet ulovlig innleie av arbeidskraft og at den siste virksomhetsoverdragelsen er ugyldig fordi den skjedde under streik.


My translation:

The pilots were transferred to the daughter company Norwegian Air Norway in 2013 and later to the "pilot service provider"* Pilot Services Norway during the strike in spring 2015.
The cabin crew were transferred to the company Cabin Services Norway in 2014.
The case is divided in three parts. First, the union considers Norwegian Air Shuttle to be the lawful employer for the pilots and cabin crew, second that Norwegian Air Norway has unlawfully acquired employees and third that the transfer to Pilot Services is illegal** because it took place during a strike.

The court decided in favour for the union in first and second complaint, but not the last.

*The original word is "bemanningsselskapet" which I don't know how to translate to English. A "bemanningsselskap" is an agency for professionals with certain knowledges who then hires those professionals to people who need them. A "bemanningsselskap" can f.ex. employ nurses that other companies then hire for a fixed period of time during peak seasons.

**I think the word "ogyldig" actually would be "not valid" or "not applicable" but I chose "illegal" because of the context. Translation is haaard!

[WeMadeYou]

So no more selling of off days now. Norwegian cancelled 18 flights only in Norway due to lack of crew. Also almost 10 planes wet leased operating for them right now.

Must be cheaper to just hire some more pilots soon?
Will we see an improvement in conditions?

Today a 777 (CS-TFM) operated Stockholm Dubrovnik and Palermo.

(In Norwegian)
https://www.nrk.no/rogaland/parat-bekrefter-konflikt-mellom-pilotene-og-norwegian-1.13025136

[MrSnuggles]

The most bizarre reasons for the cancellations are emerging. Of course the pilots are at fault if you ask Norwegian:

Norwegian om flykaoset: Piloter har meldt seg syke på kort varsel - Norwegian Air Shuttle - VG (http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/norwegian-air-shuttle/norwegian-om-flykaoset-piloter-har-meldt-seg-syke-paa-kort-varsel/a/23729795/)

"The pilots have declared sick with short notice"

https://www.nrk.no/rogaland/parat-bekrefter-konflikt-mellom-pilotene-og-norwegian-1.13025136

"The pilot union have cancelled the proposed agreement regarding overtime work"

Or, from a Swedish newspaper:
Norwegian ställer in flygningar ? ?strategi? enligt facket - DN.SE (http://www.dn.se/ekonomi/norwegian-staller-in-flygningar-strategi-enligt-facket/)

"Shortage of pilots and planes"

Meanwhile no information has been relayed to the passengers, some of them got the news at the airport!

Raser mot Norwegian: ? Bjørn Kjos ligger vel under en palme et sted - Norwegian Air Shuttle - VG (http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/norwegian-air-shuttle/raser-mot-norwegian-bjoern-kjos-ligger-vel-under-en-palme-et-sted/a/23729755/)

[captplaystation]

Pilots and cabin crew won over Norwegian - Norway Today (http://norwaytoday.info/finance/pilots-cabin-crew-won-norwegian/)

[november.sierra]

For all the bad press Norwegian has been getting lately, I think the tide is about to turn: UK based pilots got a decent CLA through BALPA, Spanish based pilots just achieved SEPLA recognition and K-area staffing levels will be increased with 50 full time positions in Scandinavia before the end of the year subject to MSL in return for reinstating Annex E of the CLA.

Slowly, small improvements are coming, such as bidding for nightstop preferences close to home, there are a number of command courses planned on both short and long haul. These are small improvements I know, but at least it is steady progress. Disappointing however, is the fact that the pilots are blamed for the current mess, which is clearly caused by a lack of forward planning and questionable decisions being taken by upper management for perceived short term gain with no appreciation of the long term effects.

Having said all that, I believe that management has now realised and understood the magnitude of the current crew shortage and are making an effort to make it right. This won't happen over night of course, but it's a step in the right direction at least!

[maxpeck]

Hmmmm I hope your right, I'm not going to hold my breath though......

A leopard doesn't change its spots really.

[Direct Bondi]

UK based pilots got a decent CLA through BALPA, Spanish based pilots just achieved SEPLA recognition

UK based pilots received a decent Collective Labor Agreement with their employer agency, not Norwegian. SEPLA received recognition with the employer agency, not Norwegian.

“Under the Provision of Services of Aircraft Crew Agreement, OSM “manages” labor relations and non-operational performance matters”. The findings of a government agency investigation into the Norwegian/OSM/crewmember relationship may be reviewed by downloading the report at:

https://storage.googleapis.com/dakota-dev-content/43-NMB-No.-21.pdf#_ga=1.17896444.435510171.1464013583

The recent “bad press” includes the headline; “The family Kjos created pilot chaos”

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/2016/07/07/1648/Norwegian/familien-kjos-skapte-pilotkaos

“Kjos son-in-law, Stig Kjos-Mathisen, is one of the key people responsible for the airline working seamlessly” - "In February he was promoted to be responsible for crew scheduling in Norwegian” - “He has a special education and has great expertise in sectors including derivatives and advanced calculation models, explains Kjos [to] E24”

http://e24.no/boers-og-finans/norwegian-air-shuttle/bjoern-kjos-svigersoenn-leder-mannskapsplanlegging-i-norwegian-han-ble-hentet-inn-da-vi-saa-at-dette-ville-kollapse/23733869

After the recent cancellations affecting thousands of passengers due to grossly mismanaged staffing levels, Norwegian may trial an even more “advanced calculation model” called PAWS. This involves placing tuna on a computer keyboard and a cat. The cat moves across the keyboard eating the tuna and paws the keyboard projecting future staffing requirements. If successful, PAWS will also replace the Headless Chicken crew scheduling software currently in use.

But has the pilot union/group/association let the smiling rock ape off the hook once more?

http://e24.no/jobb/norwegian-air-shuttle/eksperter-tror-norwegian-dommen-vil-bli-staaende-blir-vanskeligere-aa-sjonglere-med-ansatte/23728667

The pilot representatives may have failed to capitalize on the above court ruling during negotiations to reinstate selling days off and vacation. Norwegian agreed to permanently employ more pilots - but did they? Will these pilots be permanently “employed” by an agency and only temporarily assigned to Norwegian? Why didn’t the union continue the overtime ban until other labor issues were resolved? - an entirely legal option as overtime cannot be mandatory. Immediately after the agreement to end the overtime ban, Kjos declared his contempt for the court ruling:

“Kjos will not allow ruling against Norwegian in district court to stop airline from placing employees in various subsidiaries”

http://e24.no/boers-og-finans/norwegian-air-shuttle/piloter-og-kabinansatte-fikk-medhold-i-tingretten-bjoern-kjos-fortsetter-omorganiseringen-likevel/23734164

Meanwhile; of the 27 cabin crew “rented out against their will” to fly with Slovakian pilots;

“The conversion course was disorganized, poorly planned and completely unserious. Everyone got approved and issued the certificate before the test was taken. It makes us seriously worried about security” - “We have protested loudly and one has resigned in protest, says one of the Norwegian employees, who wishes to remain anonymous for fear of losing their job”

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norwegian-ansattenbsp--vi-er-bekymret-for-sikkerheten/60229786

Norwegian's US permits are still pending approval.

[november.sierra]

Bondi get a hobby, the NPU is satisfied that after a recent court ruling Norwegian has been legally established as the true employer and the legal ties of the Norwegian group to PSN/PSS/PSD also meet these criteria. As for your other contributions, I won't even acknowledge them with a reply. The employment model is far from ideal, but it is what it is, isn't likely to change much and we have to live with it for now. Slowly progress is being made, and in the meantime, all I can say is it is still a better place to work than many other places in Europe.

[Can737]

Get a hoby... come on! We, the people decide on the future we want to have, I have seen people taking action and making changes that benefit all of us now, if you want to bend over the table, too bad for you, but let the people like DB inform us on what is the reality is, so changes can happen. This is what this forum is for, bloody hell.

[captplaystation]

november.sierra, go and screw yourself . . . . mate. . . . Bondi " After the recent cancellations affecting thousands of passengers due to grossly mismanaged staffing levels, Norwegian may trial an even more “advanced calculation model” called PAWS. This involves placing tuna on a computer keyboard and a cat. The cat moves across the keyboard eating the tuna and paws the keyboard projecting future staffing requirements. If successful, PAWS will also replace the Headless Chicken crew scheduling software currently in use."

thanks, I always need a laugh in this industry, comedy gold my friend :D

[maxpeck]

I'm totally sick with flying with guys like November in Norwegian now. The company give you a scrap and you jump around like a kid on Christmas. Make no mistake, the Gatwick CLA is awful in my opinion, pages and pages of definitions, yet the actual CLA is about 3 lines. SEPLA have recognition, but CLA negotiations have been dragged out for months.

Norwegian/OSM/ whatever it's called this week have only done this because they have been forced to, not out of any realisation that they have made mistakes. You can bet that any further progress will take a long time to come, if ever. While I admit some progress has been made, I don't think it has changed anything as of yet.

Suffice to say, this isn't a personal attack, just the point of view you have I've had enough of hearing and totally don't agree with it.

[directmisbi]

Maxpeck : "Some progress has been made" .
You now have private health care, pension, LOL, and a decent collective agreement that the vast majority of your colleagues voted for in LGW. Not excellent, but a good package that BALPA could recommend. A solid starting point for future progress. A small minority of the LGW pilots now approached the company wanting the euro salary back. This after threatening resignations if they couldnt get pound sterling pay a year ago. Pathetic if you ask me, and we as pilots are truly our own worst enemy some times.

[maxpeck]

Sure the CLA is better than not having one, but I think it fell short in what it could have been if you compare it with other operators in LGW. Personally I wouldn't put too much weight into what BALPA would recommend, didn't they also recomend a UK seniority list not too long ago, I may be wrong on that though so feel free to correct me.

I will accept it is a starting point for future progress, but now is perhaps the only time that pilots will be in such a position to ask for things they want and my opinion is their CLA fell short of what it could have been.

[captplaystation]

If everything was so rosy, they wouldn't have had such difficulty recruiting (which is the REAL reason for this mess, along with the main aim of understaffing & ultimately eliminating "Core Norwegian" )

Norwegian hires new pilots to address 'terrible' situation - The Local (http://www.thelocal.no/20160707/norwegian-ceo-apologizes-for-terrible-situation)

[RAT 5]

Sure the CLA is better than not having one, but I think it fell short in what it could have been

I'm confused. It has been said that the CLA in UK and the SEPLA agreement in Spain is with the 'agency employer', but now it has been established that the real employer is Norwegian. Does that make those agreements null & void and need renegotiating?

[directmisbi]

For future applicants I strongly recommend www.norwegianpilotgroup.org for news and facts about the company/terms and conditions. Questions can be put forward directly to the NPG. Some people in here have an axe to grind, and a twisted bitter personal vendetta going on towards the company for whatever reasons. Im not a company apologist, and things could defiantely have been handled better in the past, im not saying its perfect either, but it is still a trillions times better than the blue, yellow outfit

[APU_inop]

but it is still a trillions times better than the blue, yellow outfit
The Irish are honest regarding the shafting you are about to receive. It's on paper and you sign it and everyone receives it... at least you won't have a rising blood pressure when it's time for the mandatory "90° declination".

The Norwegians however will lie to you and blame the shafting on bullocks, that seems to reoccur each and every winter. You will be blamed in the media as well by their arrogant PR-people.

The way I've understood it is: crap random rosters, non-commutable, long time to upgrade for FOs, a lot of night flights, deadheads, and expensive layovers. Problems you usually won't have when with the Irish...

[A and C]

More than a few years back I was in an airline that was having recruiting problems, at the end of the day the only way they could find pilots was to increase the remuneration, in fact over the year I saw a 25% pay increase.
Being that a pay increase will be inevitable if the company is to increase the pilot workforce then it seems to me that the LGW pilot workforce may be more astute than some would think in getting a pay rise ( + T&C's) while waiting for the inevitable to happen and the company to further increase remuneration levels due to market forces.

[Direct Bondi]

After it became apparent that agency crews would no longer accept undermined labor standards, labor rights and labor principles, and would seek representation via a lawful, labor trade union, Norwegian and OSM distributed the notice below.

Vegard Einan, the head of Norway labor union PARAT, believes the notice is an attempt to influence employees from joining a union, and in a Scandinavian working life context, is “ethically and morally reprehensible”:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2016/06/05/n...arat/44433259/ (http://www.dagbladet.no/2016/06/05/nyheter/luftfart/fagforening/norwegian/parat/44433259/)

At the left, the notice states; "Norwegian nor OSM will never divulge your personal information". It is a documented fact that Norwegian has previously disclosed, entirely without consent, the personal information of at least one agency crew member, possibly more, including private bank details with account numbers. At the right, the notice warns of threats and bully tactics, the use of which both OSM and Norwegian are proficient:

“Pilots are threatened with losing their jobs if they refuse to transition to OSM”

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/2015/03/04/0647/parat-piloter-forskt-rekruttert-til-osm

Union representation will hold Norwegian accountable to comply with the International Labor Organization, ILO, core conventions it (falsely) declares on its website to comply with:

http://www.norwegian.com/uk/about/company/corporate-responsibility/human-worth/

If ever there was an airline that demanded strong union representation, it is the regime of Bjorn Kjos and his cronies.

http://dbstatic.no/?imageId=60311408&width=1024&height=615

[SR71]

That flyer is unbelievable!

:mad:

[ExDubai]

Why? We are talking about Bjorn Kjos...... :}

[CMDGreen]

So which one of the two companies offers a better "package" ?
As far as I know at least Norwegian gives you ID tickets

[jonjon]

One less point in favour of Norwegian: they have now restricted the use of free tickets to only commuting pilots. In essence if your home address in the HR database is near your base, no commuting tickets for you.
It does not matter if for example you are dutch, moved your family to say Barcelona but still have relatives (or other kids anyone?) back at home: no free tickets for you. You have to provide an official document to prove your address, only one address allowed.
Stay away. I did a few years in ryan, my seniority here right now gives me some stability but at this point I am sorry to say I would not recommend anyone to join Norwegian: bottom of the seniority and difficult to commute..
Hope it changes soon.

[Direct Bondi]

What about the discounted staff and family tickets on NAS and NLH? - A benefit management uses to threaten and bully staff it can withdraw at any time:

“Norwegian shocks union with text message threat”

http://www.thelocal.no/20140507/norwegian-shocks-union-with-sms-threat

“The text message threatened that if the strike went ahead it would …….suspend cheap tickets for staff and family members for three years”.

Norwegian and OSM recently distributed a flyer (below) to staff which included the declaration it operates a ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding threats and bullying.

Does this gross contradiction make Norwegian’s administrators hypocrites or liars?


http://dbstatic.no/?imageId=60311408&width=1024&height=615

[Flyjets]

How are logged the flying hrs as Norwegian relief Captain ?
Pics or f/o ?

[skull]

The way they should be, FO hours.

[captplaystation]

Another scam, for those who possibly saw Winter in the Caribbean as a good idea





Dear colleagues,

this year’s “opportunity of a lifetime” will be for grabs soon and you will be able to apply for both Caribbean as well as US base options.

The NPG would like to stress the fact that we are all very supportive of any business initiatives that the company undertakes in order to boost expansion and secure quality jobs.

However we are also convinced that none of the above should come to the detriment of nor be used as an opportunity to lower our terms and conditions.

Additionally we firmly believe that the practice of introducing unilateral and non-negotiated contracts and/or appendixes should not take place in the Norwegian group of companies.

In this context the 2016/2017 “opportunity of a lifetime” comes once again in the form of a substantial pay cut and unilateral deterioration of T&C’s currently in place across the Norwegian network.

We therefore ask all colleagues to refrain from committing to any of these opportunities until the NPG unions have reached a fair and mutually beneficial agreement on the T&C’s to be offered to those pilots interested in a real “opportunity of a lifetime” and not just another “opportunity to work for less”.

We will keep you updated on any developments.

Kind Regards,

The NPG

P.S.: please find below feedback from last years’ Caribbean detachment we have received from one of our members:
Caribbean Feedback

Dear all,

All of us from the Caribbean are now settling back into our European bases, so it is time for some
feedback about our experience!

1 * The application process

At the end of June, an article was published on RedNose inviting volunteers to apply for the project. The article promised “wages on an European level” and that “the Company will assist with housing arrangements”.

Towards the beginning of August, the screening process had begun and some of us got a short phone interview with management in Fornebu. Some of us didn’t have a phone interview. On the 24th of August we received an email telling us we had been picked to spend winter in the French Caribbean!

Concerning the terms and conditions, several rumours were heard, some saying we would get a pay increase to help with the cost of life there, and others saying we would lose flight pay and standby compensation.

Towards the end of October, so 1 month before our departure, OSM came to us with a Caribbean Appendix, that lacked details. After many requests for clarification, it turned out that we did indeed get a paycut, as they took away flight pay and standby pay, as well as the phone allowance. Cabin crew were told they would not get any commission on their onboard sales. By then, most of us had already committed to going to the Caribbean, as accommodation and car deposits were paid. Many found this last*minute surprise very disappointing.

2 * Relocation to the Caribbean and Housing

As mentioned above, Norwegian/OSM vowed to help for the search with housing. In fact, they came back to us just two or three weeks before our arrival with just one or two unappealing offers. December to April is the very high season in the islands of Guadeloupe and Martinique. A few weeks before, there is very very little choice left for accommodation. Most of us had already found housing, so
we found Norwegian’s help to be a bit ... unhelpful.


Prices are very high, so the vast majority of those based had to settle for small bungalows (Martinique) or sharing houses (Guadeloupe). Small bungalows in Martinique were 1000 euros per month. A 3*bedroom houses in either island can go from 1500 to 2500 euros per month. A big 6 *bedroom villa with a private pool was 4500 euros per month.


3 * Transport / Healthcare / Schools


The islands have a very small, almost non*existant, public transportation system. A car is absolutely necessary. During the autumn, we received conflicting information from OSM/Norwegian about transportation to and from the airport. Some said we would get a daily pickup, others said we would have to manage by ourselves. In the end, Norwegian paid for 5 rental cars per island (1 per town where crew were staying (4), and another for the Base Chiefs). Crew flying would arrange carpooling. However, it is recommended to have your own car, to be able to move around during your off days. The PTP airport manager helped in arranging a good deal with rental car companies. Hertz came back with the best offer, with cars at 385 euros per month. The offer was valid for both islands, and can probably be arranged for next year too. That is a very good deal, considering the high prices on the island. However, it’s still another monthly bill, and they start to add up.


Healthcare is quite good on the islands, considering that area of the world. Hospitals in Martinique and Guadeloupe are the best in a 1000km radius. However, they will probably not match Scandinavian standards. One can wait a long time, and hospitals look cheap or old. But doctors are good and up to French standards. Schools are open to all European citizens. But we have no feedback to offer. Only one crew member brought his family, but they were too young to go to school.


4 * Operational issues


The roster was variable. On each island, there was 1 aircraft (PTP also had a spare aircraft), performing one flight per day. There were 4 crews per island, so on average we were flying 1 out of every 4 days. That was an average, but some were working twice as much as others, especially among the Cabin crew. Work days were long but quite easy. During turnarounds in the United States, the whole crew had to leave the aircraft, proceed through immigration and customs, and then up through TSA and back to the aircraft. 1h20min was allocated for the turnarounds, which was usually enough * except on busy days in JFK. Concerning the roster, we were only given the minimum 12 days off, with often not more than 3 days off in a row. Many standbys were assigned. Traveling in and out of the islands on off days was doable, but not simple. Many were complaining of lack of consecutive days off, and of “unfair” rostering (some working 10 or 11 days per month, and others only 4).


It was not possible to take any vacation during our assignment in the Caribbean. Vacation days leftover
from 2015 were paid off. There were no overnights, everyone was back on their island at the end of a work day.


5 * Other issues


The islands are very expensive : accommodation, groceries, activities ... prices match those of Scandinavia. However they are really beautiful, and it is easy to enjoy your time there. Weather in ‘winter’ is not too warm * 23° in the morning, 28° in the afternoon * with an occasional tropical rain shower. Weather got very hot and humid in April. There are many mosquitos there, with the diseases that come along. Zika is present on the islands, and OSM has agreed to pay for everyone to get tested upon return to the Continent.
We were a small group on small islands, so as can be expected, a few tensions came up from time to time. After 5 months, most were eager to return to their friends and family. Sharing accommodation, or renting bungalows next to one another, can prove occasionally difficult. When asked at the end if they wanted to return next year, many answered that they probably would not apply again. It was a very interesting experience, most were happy and enjoyed it.


But once was enough.


For those who would like to try it out next year, we can only recommend that you ask for the terms and conditions before committing yourself. And if you are offered the same contract as we had, it will make it difficult for you to live comfortably.



Kind regards,

[Flyjets]

Should be Picus as u are Relief Captain , otherwise you would be a F/o to log the hours as F/o.

[Direct Bondi]

....until the NPG unions have reached a fair and mutually beneficial agreement on the T&C’s to be offered

Norwegian has no obligation to participate in any negotiations nor comply with any agreement reached between "NPG unions" and Orient Ship Management (OSM) agency employed crew.

The NPG has yet to realize there are two contracts: 1. OSM and their employee crew member and 2, OSM and Norwegian, to supply the crew.

The respective crew member OSM contract contains the clause “There is no employment relationship between the contractor and the airline” or similar. Therefore, no legally recognized trade union representation with Norwegian may exist. The contract also contains the clause that Norwegian may reassign an operating base.

Norwegian’s US based cabin crew won a National Mediation Board decision that Norwegian is their real employer. The cabin crew recently voted to form a trade union which Norwegian must recognize and negotiate contract terms and conditions:-

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2016/08/17/norwegian-air-says-it-backs-unions-flight-attendant-leader-says-thats-hilarious/#68734b365a94

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norwegiantilknyttet-bemanningsselskap-danner-fagforening---en-fantastisk-nyhet/60394733

The NPG unions should concentrate their efforts on securing a legal decision that Norwegian is the real employer of ALL crew at ALL bases, similar to that obtained by PARAT:-

Pilots and cabin crew won over Norwegian - Norway Today (http://norwaytoday.info/finance/pilots-cabin-crew-won-norwegian/)

[CapedVulture]

Just finished reading this thread and glad I did.
Have an upcoming interview with OSM for DEC 737 with NAS.
Seems RYR is the better choice. Not too keen on being laid off for 6 months with no pay!
Sometimes it does pay to browse pprune.
Reading this thread has put me right off.
I was told you can take an 80% contract after 6 to 12 months of joining NAS which guarantees 16 days off a month etc? Any truth in this or not?

[captplaystation]

It has historically been available, but I am not sure if that applies to all Bases nor indeed all year round. Winter would be no problem I would assume, and at bases like LPA/TFS where you only fly 10 -12 days max a month (the days being so long ) NAS are delighted if you take it, as they get the same productivity (save a few SBY's ) as they have on 100% whilst saving 20% of your salary.

Beware though, 80% paying Spanish tax only works out around €5000/mth, if I had stayed I would have gone back to the circa €7000 on 100%.


It pains me to recommend FR over the Red bunch, but the way things have gone these last 3 years or so I have no qualms about doing so (particularly if you can get a base that suits you, which seems to be back on the agenda to get people in the door)

In short, no base stability, no guarantee you won't spend a Winter at home earning nowt, and constant deterioration in even simple stuff like SBY tickets to go home for commuters. . . NAS via NAI/OSM are really losing the plot . . . as you have wisely gleaned from all the invective published above.

[CapedVulture]

Thanks for the input PlayStation.
As NAS are now desperate though, wouldn't you think they will have to change their approach. Ryan has suffered crew shortage in the past and have seemed to have learnt something? NAS have lost people's confidence and will surely need to change something if they want to expand?
Can you shed light on what type roster I would expect on 100%? Is it 5on 4 off and what are the current bases? Thanks

[november.sierra]

current bases are Helsinki, Gatwick, Madrid, Barcelona, Malaga, Alicante, Tenerife, Las Palmas, Palma de Mallorca, Rome-Fiumicino. There is no fixed roster, all you will be guaranteed is 12 days off a month.

[captplaystation]

"As NAS are now desperate though, wouldn't you think they will have to change their approach."


The Ostrich syndrome appears to be in full effect, and NAI are trying to recreate Ryanair of yore, just as Ryanair are having to let go of their previous culture (well to a little extent at least )


None so blind as those who will not see . . . . . you would have thought the expense of all the wet leases , flight cancellations etc would have made it abundantly clear what was needed, but no. . . . the Red Nosed ostrich is still digging with its crimson beak. . . .

[CapedVulture]

Thanks gents
Ill approach with extreme caution and be asking many more questions.
The more I dig, the more my inclination to stay away!!

[speed_alive_rotate]

I know a couple of new cadets all who seem to be on a 5 on , 4 off . Not defending anyone or any organisation , just wanted to relay my information which is coming from 1st hand information

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Heart disease or Cancer?

[captplaystation]

speed alive rotate

Being Cadets they will be doing their line training in "K Area (I.E a Scandi base, OSL/ARN/CPH/ probably ) & they do have a fixed roster pattern. But only them.


MichaelOLearyGenius. . . . that was indeed Genius ! :D

[speed_alive_rotate]

captplaystation

You are absolutely correct. After their line training they are off to - Gatwick , Alicante ,Madrid , Malage etc so not sure what they will be working there.
So you would have a much better ability to answer what roster they would be on when they move. Also alot of them are very aware of what has gone on with the "winter break" over the last few years and are being reassured with all the new aircraft arriving and the shortage of pilots that this wont be happening , although I think a few of them realise they could be swapped between bases during certain parts of the year.

I also think a few have the 500 hours on their mind and a cv to the blue and yellow team , because there seems to be a definite shift to try get their pilots as close to their preferred base , if not their actual base of choice. Complete U turn it would seem on the strategy of old. Good to hear though.

Again please note I am only stating points , and am not here to defend anyone etc.

[captplaystation]

The roster (in my couple of years ago ) experience was OK in ALC/AGP/ LPA ( & by "association TFS ) . . . but I am led to believe it deteriorated markedly when NAI took over from Fornebu in rostering duties, & the emphasis changed from "what can we get whilst making your life agreeable" to simply "what can we get"

LGW to the best of my knowledge was always cr@p (particularly for Commuters & a lot did commute to points North in the UK ) FCO/MAD no idea, BCN always had shorter days but lots of them, not so easy to commute.

It is an "issue", but (IMHO ) far from being the biggest one. . . .

[speed_alive_rotate]

Great information thank you captplaystation .

And of course they know by recruiting us low hour cadets who are desperate for them golden hours they know they can get away with it.

However I wonder in a year or two when the exodus is massive once said cadets have reached their hours will they too suffer the same regrets as the blue and yellow team , by the huge exodus of experienced crew. By simply not treating their crews with any respect.
Surely they can see what happened at the blue and yellow team and are simply making the same mistakes.....seems madness!!

[limahotel]

@speed_alive_rotate: what do you think happened at the Irish loco? Do you think they give you a free bottle of water for those 12 hour duties? Do you think they arrange a transport to the airport when they send you out of base?

Just because they moved some people to their preferred bases, that doesn't mean they have changed.

And no, nothing will change, because when the low hour cadets get them golden hours, there will be others waiting in line to do the same.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Thanks for the input limahotel.

I am in no way defending anyone here , just wanted to state a few experiences from cadets that I have been speaking to. And I know a few at the blue and yellow too- those guys are lucky to be getting their preferred base , and of course I realise they could be in the minority , however I did think (please correct me if I'm wrong) there was an effort being made to try get pilots to their preferred base.

limahotel are you working for them , and are you finding it hard to get your chosen base?

[MaverickPrime]

SAR, one of my friends is a TRE in FR. He joined the gig in 2008 and has NEVER been based outside of UK, not even when he was a cadet! I know there are people that have to wait for a base, but I would take all the doom and gloom with a big pinch of salt!

[RAT 5]

Oh dear; how easily one accepts crumbs from the table, licking from the floor, rather than sitting at the table for a full meal.

[MaverickPrime]

Maybe your right RAT5. I say again however, where is this 'full meal' to be found?

[limahotel]

limahotel are you working for them , and are you finding it hard to get your chosen base?

Used to. I didn't get the preffered base, but then again not a lot of cadets did. That has changed a bit (coming from some of my friends still working there). Just before I left, they were starting to put in some effort to improve things. But they are still a long way from where they should be. Is it even legal for them not to provide you with free water?!

[speed_alive_rotate]

Just in terms of the thread title and bringing the most up to date information , can anyone currently from either airline post the plus and minus of each. Or even better if someone left one to join the other and their experience.

The plus side for my friends who are at the red and white team as cadets in comparison to the blue and yellow are things like:
You receive wages during your line training which allow you to "live" , I have heard a few time of cadets sleeping in their cars!!
Not required to pay for your own uniform.
I believe but am open to correction , crew meals supplied.
Hotels payed for , no need to pay upfront and reclaim , which could be difficult for new cadets who are just keeping their head above water financially.

Again I am no way defending any of the above conditions etc and know they should all be given from day 1 , but unfortunately this is not the case.

Would love to get thoughts on above.

[7Q Off]

just curious, the 6000 pounds or euros that ryanair match for pension are for the state pension or for a private pension?

I dont have a clue how pension works in europe.

[Mikehotel152]

It's the private company pension.

The State pension in most countries in Europe is earned by paying tax.

[MaverickPrime]

In the UK you must have paid National Insurance for 30 years, I believe, to be entitled for minimum state pension. State pension is earned in Spain by paying Social Seguridad for 5 years for minimum pension and 15 years for full state pension. You can obtain a higher state pension in either country by paying extra contributions. State pension can be claimed on top of your company pension when you have reached retirement age in your respective country although your tax will be adjusted to reflect you extra income.

No idea about the rest of Europe!

[LEVC]

Spanish state pension requires a minimum of 15 years working/paying social insurance, that would get you the minimum retirement, if you want the full retirement pay it is 35 years.
VERY IMPORTANT: if you work less than 15 years in Spain you get no retirement pension.
35 years is 100% pay, they deduce 2 to 5% per year you are missing, if you only did 15 years then you get 50% or so.
The 100% is not a fixed quantity and it varies depending on your pay through your working life (average modified for inflation), your social security payments are proportional to your salary, but max pay is caped at around 2200 euros.
Who would retire now getting 2200 euros a month?, well somebody who has worked the past 35 years without gaps and with high salary.
So in the best of the cases you would get 2200.
This is a rough overview of the spanish system.

[7Q Off]

Thanks guys. Last question, the private pension is at any bank you choose?

best wishes

[olav737NG]

Hello, is it allowed to fly with personal headset at RYR?

[MaverickPrime]

Spanish state pension requires a minimum of 15 years working/paying social insurance, that would get you the minimum retirement, if you want the full retirement pay it is 35 years.
VERY IMPORTANT: if you work less than 15 years in Spain you get no retirement pension.
35 years is 100% pay, they deduce 2 to 5% per year you are missing, if you only did 15 years then you get 50% or so.
The 100% is not a fixed quantity and it varies depending on your pay through your working life (average modified for inflation), your social security payments are proportional to your salary, but max pay is caped at around 2200 euros.
Who would retire now getting 2200 euros a month?, well somebody who has worked the past 35 years without gaps and with high salary.
So in the best of the cases you would get 2200.
This is a rough overview of the spanish system.

What he said ^^, although I do believe if you haven't the 15 years contributions your entitled to a welfare pension.......:}. I think the 15 years minimum contributions entitle you to circa €8000/yr state pension if memory serves right, so not too shabby.

Anyhow, whatever the exact figures, the Spaniards will look after you much better than the Brits when it comes to public healthcare or pensions.

[Mikehotel152]

In the UK you must have paid National Insurance for 30 years, I believe, to be entitled for minimum state pension.

Not quite.

You need 30 qualifying years of National Insurance contributions or credits to get the full basic State Pension....

If you have fewer than 30 years, your basic State Pension will be less than £119.30 per week but you might be able to top up by paying voluntary National Insurance contributions.

[7Q Off]

Spanish state pension requires a minimum of 15 years working/paying social insurance, that would get you the minimum retirement, if you want the full retirement pay it is 35 years.
VERY IMPORTANT: if you work less than 15 years in Spain you get no retirement pension.
35 years is 100% pay, they deduce 2 to 5% per year you are missing, if you only did 15 years then you get 50% or so.
The 100% is not a fixed quantity and it varies depending on your pay through your working life (average modified for inflation), your social security payments are proportional to your salary, but max pay is caped at around 2200 euros.
Who would retire now getting 2200 euros a month?, well somebody who has worked the past 35 years without gaps and with high salary.
So in the best of the cases you would get 2200.
This is a rough overview of the spanish system.

Your PM are full. Tks LEVC

[captplaystation]

Following on from the "Caribbean Blind Date" offer, those of you who still consider this shower as a serious employer should take note of the latest development.


Being unable to staff the Roma Fiumicino base (no doubt partly due to their unwillingness to publicise the contract, & the offered conditions appearing to be below those in force at the Spanish bases, which are hardly a "lottery win" in anyones language ) the company has resorted to the tactics utilised to steamroller all contractors into signing up with OSM in the beginning of 2015. Threatening emails, with short time limits to respond, in regard to obtaining Italian Fiscal numbers, may sound familiar to anyone who encountered some of the individuals involved in NAI (with the emphasis on I ) in their previous domain.
Forced base transfers seem to have become a seasonal fact of life in Norwegian these last few years, just as the competition are waking up to the fact that they lose many people if they don't ameliorate this situation.

This, along with veiled threats to delay /stall the CLA negotiation with the Spanish Union, will ring a bell in many peeps ears . . . . . treat these people with the caution & disdain they deserve chaps/chappeses. . . . they are trying to reinvent the wheel by making it square, just as the opposition is reaching the conclusion it works better when rounded.

As they rightly point out in their OSM/NAR/NAI BS "it's all about people", yep, but that cuts both ways. . . . . .

[Direct Bondi]

Bases and applicable labor law jurisdiction is a hot topic at the moment following the Ryanair/Norway court ruling. In respect of crew members labor rights and labor principles circumvention, it is difficult to imagine any worse environment in the civilized world than the gross hypocrisy of the Norwegian regime. Those responsible at the Fornebu rats nest have also demonstrated a misguided interpretation of a ‘Just Culture’.

Kjos continues to plead with the US DOT that Irish labor law will apply to crew operating the planned NAI Cork-Boston service. Irish officials, media and public, continue as willing pawns in the NAI permit application:-

http://www.thejournal.ie/norwegian-air-usa-europe-2948823-Aug2016/

“Opponents say that Norwegian is only in Ireland to evade Norway’s more strict labor laws”

Kjos assurances of Irish labor law applicability and oversight leads to the obvious question;

How many of Norwegian’s pilots and cabin crews are actually based in Ireland and have Irish employment contracts?

[captplaystation]

The incumbent workforce are so underwhelmed by the potential (unpublished/hidden) T's & C's they would receive stateside (after last years smoke & mirrors) that the company is having to advertise the Gig separately.

Resource Group - - B737NG Captain - J526161 (http://www.resourcegroupjobs.co.uk/job/_B737NG_Captain_(935328).aspx)

Wouldn't be surprised if they still manage to lay off some of the European workforce over Winter though in any case.

[APU_inop]

"Contract Duration: 5 months with opportunity for direct hire afterwards in Europe "

Does this mean that you will have a shot at a proper contract as a direct hire by Norwegian?

edit: to avoid any misunderstanding: it was just a joke!

[captplaystation]

Yep, there are "degrees of directness" in their eyes . . . . . :hmm:

[speed_alive_rotate]

Does anyone know how long it takes at Norwegian from cadet to command? Is it as fast as Ryanair?
Also is there anyone on the inside at Norwegian know of any new bases being looked at for the new arriving aircraft?

Fell free to PM me if you prefer.

[eduelp]

New RYR contractor salaries in German bases rumored to be 5500€ for CP, 2800€ for FO after Irish tax and German social insurance. Go figure.

[Kulito]

Norwegian command upgrade minimum 3.800 hrs so make yours numbers Speed alive.

[BehindBlueEyes]

Starting salary of latest NAS cadets = €3500 PM

[speed_alive_rotate]

And are FOs reaching anywhere near the 900 hrs per year , by your information you would realistically be looking at 4-5 years approx.

Any word on future bases? Many thanks for your reply @Kulito as it is very hard to get answers on said airline on this forum. Are you currently working for them?

[JaxofMarlow]

You sound disappointed that it might take 4-5 years to get the only promotion you will ever achieve in aviation. Hopefully there is more to it than hours logged even at Norwegian.

Maybe you should read the current threads on Norwegian in detail first before making a decision for no better reason than the ostensible first to command.

[speed_alive_rotate]

I have read all the threads and thanks for your post @jaxofmarlow

It was more curiosity of how long it could be done in , not dissapointed at all.....I'm not trying to join an airline because of the fastest route to command etc. but the more information you can gather the better or more "eyes wide open" you are if you take the leap to join.

As you can see I am also interested in possible new bases or expansion etc.

Maybe my post could of been written a bit better so as not to be taken up wrong.

[captplaystation]

http://www.lockonaviation.net/html/showphoto.php?id=10627


http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/native-americans-say-what-christopher-columbus-means-to-them/


http://usuncut.com/world/7-myths-and-atrocities-of-christopher-columbus-that-will-make-you-cringe/



Maybe mere corporate ignorance from the salmon-smokers, or perhaps a slightly deeper insight into their "core values" than they would wish you to perceive. . . . .