Cheap American PPL's A Waste Of Money?

[jarjam]

Any other Instructors coments on the following will be warmly appreciated:

Working as an instuctor at a busy flying school in central England I am becoming increasingly agitated by a growing number of FAA PPL holders who are endeavouring to get "checked out" to fly in the U.k.
This post I must emphasis is NOT to slag off these pilots but more to voice my frustration at the apparent low standards of training of SOME of our Americano colleagues.
I am currently in the process of completing two such "check outs". Both pilots who by the way were taught at seperate schools, and I am very concerned at the lack of basic skills they posses as qualifyed PPL's.

General weaknesses are as follows;

1 En-route cx and pre landing cx very sketchy,
2 Radio skills and general RT handling weak
3 Principles of dead-reckoning nav not covered properly
4 Stalling only covered to Incipient stage
5 No method for PFL's (just aiming at any field regardless of speed and height)
6 principles of stable approach speed and also x-wind landings poorly understood.
7intermitent use of carb heat

plus many other less important quibbles.

Having done hours building in the U.S. on my good old CAA PPL I am well aware of the differences in operating in the U.S. (especialy on the radio) but I feel that buying a cheap PPL can be a false economy as both of my chaps have completed several more hours of Dual training than even they anticipated, and in my opinion more is required.

My message to anybody thinking of heading off to Florida or anywhere similar is to look at the basic cost of the PPL, add your flights and living expences for 4-6 weeks than add 5-700£ to get checked out in the U.K. afterwards and see what the difference is.
By the way one of the FTO's is British owned and offers an APPROVED JAA PPL.

How does it go again? you get what you pay for!

Cheers me Dears

[The Greaser]

As a Brit who has instructed in the UK for two years I have experienced pilots from training backgrounds in both countries. On the whole the standard of pilots from both is very much the same.
Of course when you transfer students from one country to another it is going to take more than an hour to acclimatise to the differences. I have checked out many UK trained pilots in the US - most of which were fairly average pilots whose RT was not terribly good either.
Covering some other points brought up, dead reckoning is a big part of the PPL syllabus in the states and as I recollect there is a requirement for more cross country flying to gain an FAA PPL than a JAR PPL. Unfortunately it is just something people tend not to be good at whether trained by Americans or Brits.
Full stalls are always taught at PPL in the States, PFL's have huge emphasis, as have stable approaches and crosswind technique.
Maybe you have just been unfortunate with the students you have seen, I have seen the same thing in reverse I can assure you.

[jarjam]

Good points raised, obviously only two pilots dosnt give me a good enough cross section to draw a conclusion on the whole U.S. PPL training set up, But I did find it worrying that they shared very similar weaknesses in key areas of their knowledge/skills,

Food for thought .

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

jarjam,

Quality of a low time pilot will vary from school to school. It is like any business, there are companies that offer a good product and companies that offer something less.

As a low time pilot it is important to keep flying. If they do not, their skills will deteriorate over time. Then you are also tossing into the mix a new environment. Something the pilot is not accustom to adds apprehension and lowers a pilots performance. This is something that will go away with a few hours of flight time. This is not just going from the U.S.A. to Europe, the same thing would happen to a low time pilot, for example, flying in L.A. for the first time after only flying in Florida.

There is another factor. The FAA and JAA teach the same procedures slightly differently. You have to be aware of the differences and understand that it is a slightly different approach which in the end obtains the same goal.

The important thing is to approach the pilot with a positive attitude and help them make their goal of getting checked out. Just think if you were in their position. They meet their instructor and the first comment is, "Oh, you did your training in XXXXX, well we will need to do this and this and this to fix that!" Then they go up for the flight. The instructor sees the pilot doing a maneuver slightly differently to the way he would teach it and the instructor immediately takes over and says, "Where did you learn to do that? That is all wrong and you need to do it this way!" By this time the poor guy is so nervous and his morale is so low that his performance suffers severely.

This is nothing that is unique to the U.K., the same thing happens in the U.S.A. too. Someone comes from Europe to get checked out in the U.S.A. to fly for a holiday can get the exact same reaction here too. It all hinges on the instructor and his attitude/knowledge when dealing with someone flying in their country for the first time.

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[BEagle]

We have also encountered difficulties with SOME - not all - students trained in the US.

To add to your list:

1. No concept of attitude flying.

2. Inability to assess tracking whilst maintaining the correct height in the visual circuit.

3. One pilot who had never recovered from a 'spiral descent' during his US training.

4. One pilot who had to demand to be allowed to fly solo - his 'instructor' was determined to get the most 'dual instruction' time possible in order to buld his own hours.....

5. One pilot who hadn't covered flapless circuits and other manadatory items of the JAR/FCL PPL Skill Test because the tame examiner used by the US school claimed they'd 'run out of time' - what he meant was that the flight would have exceded the time 'allocated' by the school. After landing the Examiner then ostentatiously tapped his top pocket, expecting a tip........

6. One school which, astonishingly, actually charged more for flight instruction by experienced instructors and less for that provided by inexperienced ones! I can hardly believe that this was true, but that's what the pilot said!

Interestingly, the CAA SRG consider that there is no 'safety case' for such pilots returning to the UK from the US - as no-one will allow them to fly solo in the UK until they've received further training.....

Again, please note that this is NOT a general criticism, just our experience with SOME US-trained pilots.......

[West Coast]

Beagle, et al

I used to ALOT of checkouts for European pilots at the FBO I worked at here in San Diego. The quality of the pilots varied greatly, usually the determining factor was common sense and flight experience. The closest I ever came to lawn darting came from an arrogant Brit pilot with only a couple hundred hours. He had bought into someones line of BS that the Brit way was utterly superior to the FAA's. When we were done, I not only wouldn't sign him off, I went to the FSDO (FAA) to let them know to look out for him. Do I condemn all Brits by my experience with him and a few others? No I don't . I recognize that each system has its highlights, and its drawbacks.
It may hurt your feelings to know that instructors on this side of the pond have lists of peeves also.

[BEagle]

Please would you let us know what the 'list of peeves' consists of so that we can do something about it?

I can well imagine that some low time pilots with JAR-FCL PPLs arriving in the US with the intention of wanting to drone up and down the coast 'hours building' would genuinely irritate their US instructors with a 'I've got my licence - I know it all' attitude. You have my sympathy!!

I too have met some low-hours folk who seem to think that there is nothing more for them to learn - all they have to do is to burn holes in the sky and the airlines will welcome them with open arms.....................

[West Coast]

I didn't write them down, so I am working from a distant memory.

1. R/T, to be expected though. Many came over prepared as best they could. Some had purchased tapes of US RT techniques, or somehow prepared themselves in this aspect. Alot hadn't. At first it was quaint to hear them ask for curcuits.

2. Problems in high density controlled airports. This encompasses a few things. Speed adjustments issued by controllers. At a number of San Diego airports the pace can be breathtaking. Instrument pilots especially had problems flying at the increased speeds ATC issued, an ILS at 120 kts instead of 90 or whatever they were comfortable with. VFR patterns adjusted by the tower offered the same.

3. A number had problems at a busy uncontrolled airport. A bit of a problem being their own controller.

4. The complex airspace of Southern California. Enough said on that.

5. Flight in reduced vsby, as is the norm here.

I recognize some of these are particular to the area, I based my judgements on the ability to adapt to these challenges after some exposure, not how they came through the front door initially.

[I Fly]

Something no one has addressed yet. There are students everywhere who want to cut corners. Sometimes I really wonder why they want to fly if they only want to do 1/2 of the 'fun bits'. Maybe it's the sales spiel they get, maybe it's just expecting less training for less money. I've had students where I thought "perhaps I should give him his licence first MAYBE THEN he will want to learn what it is all about. I'm also sure that if you wrote down what the student said, they never did, and then contacted the other instructor across the pond, you might get surprised. Remember, a student can not remember, what it is, that he forgot. We have Americans and Europeans coming to Australia to fly and you would not believe the stories I get. Neither do I. Sometimes I ask people "would you lend me your $150 000 Mercedes to drive to Darwin without any stipulations" Answer "No". "So why should I lent you my $ 150 000 Aeroplane without you jumping through some hoops of ours. I don't make the law, I just comply with it. It is my duty to get you to comply with it as well". There are students in Australia as well as America and Europe, who shop around for some sucker who will expect less and let them get away with more. In 35 years of flying I have never met a student who said to me "I wanted more training but they would not give it to me. Personally I think a 40 hour PPL is just not enough. I generally need 65 to 70 hours to get them competent. Perhaps that says something about my competency?????????
However, I'm still alive, have never bingled anything and never had the need to be disciplined by our Authority.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Of course they are.

If you want to fly in U.K or European airspace, then learn in that environment. If you are going to fly in the states then learn there. The procedures we all fly are different, not better or worse, just different.

To be honest if you add it all up, learning to fly in the States is NOT cheaper than here in Blighty, if you include the cost of re-training, I've never had to do "just" a check out. The fact that in many places across the pond you have to pay for ground briefings. Then add in flight and accomodation costs. All of a sudden the U.K is not quite as expensive.
Most people only look at the per hour rate and while there is a massive difference that is only part of the story.
I'm not going to get involved in the "we're better instructors than them" argument because frankly it's bo**ocks.
However as I've already said if you are flying in the U.K it is alot more sensible to learn in the U.K. You won't have to relearn our procedures when you get back and relearning something is alot harder than learning it initially. No bad habits as such...

[Field In Sight]

I trained in California and have to agree that it takes slightly longer when getting checked out back in the UK. Some of this is down to differing instruction technique and some just down to familiarisation with the new environment.

The RT & Procedures are different but a PPL still has to pass RT & Air Law so it is only a matter of practice. The flying is the same wherever you train.

I believe that it is still cheaper to do it in America but only by a small amount. Some of the savings and for me the main benefit is the continuity of training due to the better weather and usually the same instructor.

I don't know what the average hours/elapsed time required to pass are in the UK but the FTO I trained at it was about 50-55hrs in 3-5 weeks. My personal experience of 5 weeks training back in England would be about 2-3 cancelations due to weather and maybe 3hrs flying. Availability of the same instructor was also a problem.

Remember that America is also quite a nice environment to fly in. :cool:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hi BEagle:

What is wrong with a higher qualified instructor charging more?

If experienced instructors were paid more it may give some incentive for new instructors to stay in the industry.

By the way I charge a hell of a lot more for my time than most instructors.

Cat Driver:

.....................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I've checked out pilots with FAA PPLs here, they range from very good to well below average.
But one pattern emerges and that is the ones who have gone for the "guaranteed PPL in x hours/weeks/dollars". These seem to suffer from a common problem which is lack of confidence and ability to deal with anything unexpected, IMHO due to the lack of time to consolidate, or just sit back and have a rest and let it all sink in. It's a shame, because some of them have been so nervous they have admitted to being scared stiff of flying solo; their confidence has had to be built up from scratch, along with many of their basic skills. One had been issued a JAR PPL but only had 1.2 hours of IF time!
In general it's true that you get what you pay for, and sadly these el-cheapo outfits give pilots unrealistic expectations, and many potentially good pilots are ruined on the way.

[slim_slag]

I chatting to a CFI at Hayward (class D under the San Francisco Class B) area a few years back, and he said that he would not cut some US trained pilots lose in that airspace. Guys from places like Idaho might be very capable on 30 ft wide backcountry dirt strips, but just didn't have the RT skills to cope with Bay Approach.

Who says a newly minted PPL is going to be a hot-shot pilot on either side of the Atlantic. It's a licence to learn. All a PPL proves is that you are barely safe to let lose with passengers, IMO.

Isn't recent currency what really matters? So who do you think will have the most hours logged in the past 90 days? Somebody who pays £50 per hour with no extras like landing fees and good availability of planes, or somebody who pays £100 per hour with all those little extras.

Experienced instructors charging more is fine by me.

[foxmoth]

Field in sight,
If you went FULL TIME learning in the UK you would probably just about finish your PPL in the same time as long as you pick a reasonable time of year, if you are only expecting 2-3 cancellations in that time you can't have been making enough bookings. In the days of Air Cadet flying scholarships (30 hrs flying in my day) 4 weeks were allowed to complete which was usually enough. Provided you don't turn up last minute expecting to start (how many people would head to the US without booking well ahead?) most of the schools I know could fit people in on an intensive course, AND with the same instructor for most of it.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Field in sight,
A good idea of how long a student will take I find is to get their age and add 25 to it. Amazingly this gives a pretty good guide!!;)

Personally I've had a number of students in the U.K who've finished in around a month, and this has been at all times of the year. I admit in winter it can be a bit hit and miss, but we fly alot more often than not even then.
As to having a different instructor every time, no flying school wants this, some places are more prone to it than others and sometimes it is unavoidable (even flying instructors have holidays sometimes! Cheap ones tho'!!:D ) But it is certainly not more likely in this country than anywhere else.

Slim you've certainly hit the nail on the head about currency. Not many people in the U.K can afford to do more than a couple of hours a month and lets face it that's not enough to keep current in most cars, let alone aircraft.
More experienced instructors getting more money? That'd be nice can't see it catching on here anytime soon unfortunately.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

BEagle,

6. One school which, astonishingly, actually charged more for flight instruction by experienced instructors and less for that provided by inexperienced ones! I can hardly believe that this was true, but that's what the pilot said!

I believe you are remembering a discussion we had from the following thread:

80-100 hours a month in FL? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52514)

Take Care,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[BEagle]

Then I guess that it must have been your school to which he referred.

I mentioned this 'tiered' quality v. cost approach to flying training at a meeting recently and it was viewed with incredulity.

[The Greaser]

As far as I can see the more experienced instructors do get paid more in this country. At the school I went to the inexperienced guys taught PPL's and got paid jack while the older, wiser ones taught IR's and got paid significantly better.

[Field In Sight]

You are right in saying you could do it full time back at home. This is something I will probably be doing for my CPL or FI ratings.

My personal experience of cancellation/flight hours per month is based on only flying at the weekends due to work pressures, the pressures of keeping a girlfriend happy and the attraction of then going to the pub with my mates :p . I am sure you could get a lot more flying in than I managed if you really wanted to.

For me, California also provided lots of local attractions to visit when I wasn't flying.

Back to the original post "Cheap American PPL's A Waste Of Money?" I would say no, just different and overall not as cheap as you think they are.

[englishal]

First of all, learning in the US IS cheaper...full stop. As far as checkouts go on return to the UK, I had an hour dual check, like I have every year, and they were happy to let me lose in the club aircraft. Its not just me though, I know many people who have returned from the US, and been given a club checkout and been set free.

There will be good and bad pilots everywhere. I consider myself a competent pilot, but by no means the best, and if a flying club here in the UK is satisfied with my performance, then all I can assume is that the standard of training in the US is at least as good as here in the UK.

As far as more highly qualified instructors charging more for instruction....that has been happening in the UK for years. If I want instrument training here, guess what I have to pay more (where as the FBO I use in California charge a fixed rate of $35 per hour, Insturment, PPL, Multi, spin training, aerobatics, etc).

I was flying around California last autumn, and there was another PPL over from the UK. He was hour building before going to OAT. First flight he flew into restricted airspace over San Onofre nuke power station and (luckily for him) ended up with a royal bollocking. After this he was so scared to fly in the US that he took an instructor with him for the entire duration of his trip (10 days). I'm not knocking this, it just brings home the point that the UK and US are indeed different, and someone who may be **** hot in an area they know, might not nescessarily be so hot somewhere else. This works both ways.

I think this US / UK arguement should end. Point of fact is that there's always going to be good / bad pilots and those in between, you can pay less for a quality licence in the states, you can receive quality training in the UK and US, the US is more GA friendly......

Cheers
EA;)

[jarjam]

I think the key point to the original post that I made is that the pilots that are usualy of a below average standard when trying to get checked out in the U.K. are usualy the PPL for x dollars in x weeks as I think C.F.I stated.

It is these FTO's that I am frustrated with because of their apparent slap happy standards to ensure maximum turn out of students and ultimately max profit I suppose.
I have spoken with several Brits who were trained in Florida and one of them told me that a certain FTO rhyming with "almond Screach" aledgedly kept the remainder of your money with no refund if you were unable to complete in the allocated timescale.
I mean how can you train a half descent pilot with that kind of an attitude.

My time in Florida was spent flying from Daytona Beach, with it being a very busy GA/comercial airfield I initialy found the adaption to flying there quiet tough, the radio was fast and frantic and there was a very high concentration of aircraft in the sky's. However I hate to think how tough it could have been if my handling skills and Knowledge were not of the competent standard they were at.
The problems I have encountered are not differences in training or differences in RT/airspace but are more focused on lack of pilot skills and judgement brought about by poorly constructed training.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

I would like to think I can comment on this because I did some hourbuilding in the states before my IMC/CPL/FI/IR courses and now I sometimes cringe/laugh when I think back because I was absolutely SHOCKING. I have also had to convert FAA PPls back to JAR perhaps with a little more sympathy.

Fact is new PPL's dont have enough experienceto be able to cope with a lay off or indeed a change of scenery. Put the two together and invariably you end up with a very mediocre performance.

I would argue that it would be a similar situation if you had moved a JAR ppler to say under the London TMA from somewhere like Blackpool. Unusual scenery with the differentish RT procedures , I suggest would also overload the new PPL.

Lets all remember they havn't got a lot of excess capacity when newly qualified, geography and whats coming through the headset will have a very serious impact on their performance.

I think we are confusing poor training with a poor performance in some cases here

[Bottle Fatigue]

Jarjam,

I was a pupil at the above FTO, and I think that you've hit the nail on the head regarding that school.

Although I was allowed solo in the UK after approx. 1 hour check out, I think I needed about a further 10 hours training to feel comfortable with my own abilities. Some of that was with another US flight school with a very different attitude so I wouldn't like to think you were tarring everyone with the same brush.

However I've trespassed on someone else's forum - just a PPL expecting brickbats.

[big pistons forever]

When I was a full time instructor I completed 3 UK PPL checkouts so they could fly our ( Canadian ) rental aircraft. One was a arrogant SOB sure he was going to show us poor colonials how real airman fly:rolleyes: . I had a lot of fun with him and when we were done there was not a dry spot on his shirt:D . The second was an average pilot who did OK but even though I was ready to sign him off ,insisted on another hour to build his confidence. The third was young, maddly in love with everything aeronautical and had so much natural ability he could fly the box the aircraft came in:) . My conclusion. It does not matter where you learned to fly. If you have a good instructor , a good work ethic/attitude and a modicum of ability you will be a good pilot .

[BEagle]

Good to see some honest debate and constructive comment on this thread - not just xenophobic paranoia!

Once the situation regarding training and testing in the JAR member state of licence issue has been resolved, perhaps we'll see more people taking a 4-5 week holiday at a Mediterranean PPL school to take advantage of the VAT-free training and better weather rather than crossing the pond?

[Irv]

Personally I'd prefer it if people who decide to learn abroad ONLY learned for the local licence - this would help me understand what they do know and what they don't when they come to fly in the UK for the first time. It would help devise a standard UK conversion 'upgrade'.
I was shocked a year ago to find a new Florida JAR PPL (3.5 weeks) who claimed never to have ever heard of the term 'QNH'. (I do mean QNH, not QFE). I know they'll call it 'altimeter' in practice, but if you are on a JAR PPL course, how do you not know the term? I would have expected an FAA PPL not to know the term, but a JAA-PPL?
I was also VERY pleasantly surprised last year when a new SA PPL came for a rental checkout - my first experience of one. From talking to and visiting various clubs down there this year, I suspect they adopted the UK standard back in the 50s or 60s, and the schools still run very 'strict' training regimes and even go somewhat over the top (in my opinion) on type ratings once the licence is issued. (To be legal, each extra simple type needs a ground exam on it and a form to Pretoria)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Irv:

What is so sacred about knowing all the JAA JAR garbage that you are stuck with?

If any pilot has been taught to fly any aircraft to a standard that makes him / her competent to fly same and think things out to come to a reasonable conclusion on how to handle any situation what difference does it make if he / she is not familiar with your phraseology?

At least the rest of the world knows when they are on final rather than finals. I never could figure out how anyone could be doing two approaches at the same time.

One of the irritating things I notice about a lot of pilots in England is their superior attitude with no identifiable demonstration of pilot skills to back up their self image.

For entertainment I like to watch the weekend warriors in their fighter pilot flying suits wrestle with their tailwheel mounts at North Weald.

But you have got me thinking that maybe these guys had the wrong altimiter setting and their problem with the runway is they don't know how high or low it is? :D :D :D

There that should liven up our weekend.. :) :)

Cat Driver:

................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[Irv]

Chuck E.: "What is so sacred about knowing all the JAA JAR garbage that you are stuck with? "

hmmm ..wonder if there is "friendly-fire" here! ;)
I don't believe I've ever tried to take someone who just wants mentoring for UK flying on a foreign licence and told them anything about JAR or the JAA. (unless they specifically want to convert licences)

When someone turns up with an FAA licence they need to understand the real practical differences about flying in the UK - eg: terms they will hear which might either be vital, or might confuse them whilst they are flying in the UK eg: QNH, Regional QNH, QFE, overhead joins, MATZ, LARS, FIS, RIS, possible differences in Class D rules, how to check pre-flight weather, notams, 'royal flights' red-arrows' etc - nothing to do with JAR or what anyone calls final approach, I just try to sort out real life practical 'confusions' and questions for the FAA pilot renting here.

Now what I can't understand (and I assume this is actually the sort of thing you meant) is why some instructors in the UK try and 'alter' the way a non-UK guy flies when he/she is perfectly safe as-is. Just one example; Most FAA guys will take a first bit of flap downwind, most UK pilots leave it til base - just the way it is generally taught here. Someone I know with a foreign licence was on a rental check in the UK last month and was told he MUST leave flap until base (ie: it's somehow WRONG to do it earlier). Attempts to get an explanation afterwards as to why this change was so vital failed miserably. Says more about the UK instructor than the potential renter...

ps:But I'm still don't understand how anyone can study for JAA licence, and have read the books for and sat the ground exams (and been debriefed on them) and somehow not ever have noticed or heard or taken in the term 'QNH'. I never got to ask, she disappeared off the scene after the ground briefing and never phoned up to book a flight!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hi again Irv:

Naw, I wasen't really trying to get you going, its just that aviation gets more and more difficult with each passing year. The differences from one country to another is quite perplexing when it would be so simple to have continunity in phrases and rules world wide.

For instance please explain to me why we have to struggle through all the weather METARS and TAFS written in code when it would be so much more simple to just have it printed in plain language?

You answer that and make me feel better.

As far as flight training is concerned there seems to be a world wide problem with neglecting to teach the simple basics of how to fly the things.

Cheers:

Cat Driver
................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[Irv]

>>when it would be so much more simple to just have it printed in plain language?

..and, let's think about that, which language would that be...? ;) :D

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Well Irv:

I guess you haven't been anywhere if you are not aware of what the international language of aviation is. :)

When you get a better grip on aviation get back to me. :D :D

Oh, by the way do you perfer your weather in code rather than plain language??

Cat Driver:

...........
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[I Fly]

It seems to me we are talking about 2 different ducks.

If an overseas pilot wants to hire my aircraft, they need a validation. Equals no exam or test.
I will check them out to see if they can fly the bloody thing and find their way home so they can bring it back intact.

If someone wants to convert a licence, they do a conversion exam. They will be examined on the local national syllabus. If they get a question on QNH and can't answer it, it get marked as wrong. They can't say "ask me about Altimeters".

If they want a Rating, they do a exam as well as a flight test. And again they are tested to the local syllabus.

If someone does a JAR licence in the US, I would have thought hey get examined and tested on the JAR syllabus and not the FAAs. Something to do with complying with local Laws.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I guess what I am trying to get across is why do we have different rules and procedures in different parts of the world?

Would it not be reasonable to have everyone work through ICAO to ensure continituity and standardization around the world?

I note this is the instructors forum, are my questions to difficult for you to understand?

It may help some if you look beyond the area in which you each fly and try and grasp the concept that some of us must adapt to many, many different sets of rules and procerures due to our having to fly on a world wide basis.

Standardization world wide would in my opinion not only be desirable but would enhance safety. You do understand the word " safety " do you not? I note that almost everything we receive from our respective government agencys constantly bleat the " safety " mantra.

Then they go ahead and design their own set of rules to satisfy their own little bureaucratic world.

Flying instructors on the whole seem to be meek little robots indoctrinated in the Voodoo of their respective areas on the planet. Try and introduce something that will simplify things and all you get is protectionism of a beliefe system.

A very simple example of the stupidity prevelent in aviation is the slavish holding on to the code system of dissiminating aviation weather, common sense should dictate that plain language reporting of weather would be a far better method of providing such very important information.

Or does reading code give some of you a feeling of being special?

Cat Driver:

.........................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Chuck, I agree that it would be easier if we had a common system throughout the world. I suppose JAR could have been an opportunity for that.... But like language and culture, aviation has developed differently in different countries; Australia is a classic example. The americans with their altimeters and non-metric units of measurement are a pain, but they aint going to change.
This is not Utopia, and there are always going to be procedural differences.
I am amazed that someone has a JAR PPL and doesn't know what QNH means, and it really makes you wonder if their instructor knew either, and IMHO gives a good case for making sure the instructors teaching these people should have some experience flying in the country they are licencing people for.
As for the weather, well, it is possible that not all meteorologists are fluent in English, or whichever plain language you prefer. (Babel fish, anyone?)

Is the wx code too difficult for you to understand?

[I Fly]

Yes Chuck, it would be nice. More power to you if you can achieve it.
However.
Each National authority has to write it's rules so as to be legal in it's country. The American constitution gives the people the RIGHT to use the air. The Australian constitution, doesn't even mention it. So it becomes a PRIVILEGE. You jump through this hoop and we let you do that etc. I also believe (please prove me wrong) that the US has probably the most variations filed with ICAO. So, do we follow ICAO or the US? I'll be singing or shovelling coal before that gets resolved. Wait until we get the United States of Europe.
I suppose things get coded so computers have less bits to crunch. Why can't I have a PA 28-235 on my flight notification instead of a PA28B (hint - to many characters)
I just did a search of the ICAO website, they seem to know QNH.
4 Aerodrome Meteorological Observing Systems Study Group (AMOSSG) ICAO undertakes a thorough review of the aerodrome meteorological observing systems with the assistance by the AMOSSG. This task involves a review of requirements in Chapter 4 of Annex 3 concerning the observing and reporting of wind, visibility, runway visual range (RVR), present weather, cloud, temperature, dew-point temperature, QNH and supplementary information. In particular, the AMOSSG is expected to assist the ICAO Secretariat to assess the capability of automated weather systems in ...
There also appeared plenty of other abbreviations.
A search for 'Altimeter' brought 0 result.

[Field In Sight]

Topic Review (Newest First)
Charlie Foxtrot India Chuck, I agree that it would be easier if we had a common system throughout the world. I suppose JAR could have been an opportunity for that....

Supposedly the next stage of the JAA i.e. Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has a primary goal of harmonising between other authorities, specifically the FAA.

However I expect that this is hardly likely to happen until the USA recognises the error of it's ways and decides to return to the commonwealth. ;)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hi again everyone.

First off I learned to fly in North America so we are not familiar with the metric system and the term QNH is never used in airtraffic control.

Having said that I prefer the metric system and feel it should be used world wide. Also with regard to plain language weather, english is the international language of aviation. Therefore I am sure we can convince a computer to accept and send in that language. Local areas or countries that wish to convert to their own language are free to do so.

If we have english world wide in air traffic control what is the barrier to using that language in met. transmissions?

As to your question C.F.I., reading code is a pain period. However when I wrote the ALTP exams in the late fifties the exams were answered in writing rather than multiple choice. I got 98% in met.

I am willing to bet that in the past ten years I have read METAR's and TAF's in more countries than you have airports.

And yes they are different and can be confusing, especially when the persons on the other side of the desk doesen't understand english.

Cat Driver:

...................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[a pilot]

Flying a cessna 172 is flying regardless of location and books.In west USA you have the option of real mountain flying,very busy airspace,night,ifr you name it-how can a pilot that never had the freedom to fly where and when he wants think he is better?How can a low time pilot compare to a high time?It is true that the instuctors here could be very low time and low quality but the license is considered a license to learn,get more training,find a better cfi,fly other planes at a lower cost than europe.I FLEW WITH BRITISH AND OTHER PILOTS,SAYING THEY ARE BETTER IS NOT TRUE.Flying thru class b and mountains with a hi time german pilot-transponder failed,flaps got stuck,radio weak-u had to see his face,he was scared and lost.Not proud of all the crappy equipment,the more u ve seen u ll have a better chance even if your written tests r not that great,and yeh-some examiners here are corrupt.

[englishal]

Well said a pilot

By the way, got the numbers of any corrupt examiners :D :D

EA;)

[a pilot]

The corrupt examiners may end up being more expensive,so lets not feed people like DIRTY BOB,remember that many FAA employees become DE,before during and after the test if something does not look right it is your word against his.The main factor in passing a checkride is the connection between the sign off guy\gal school to the examiner,your performance is secondary.On a written exam you are guaranteed equal condintions,not on a checkride!

[a pilot]

IRV,I just read your msg and I dont get it why do you care when and if a pilot uses flaps!Why cant you take it as his own decision?Any pilot has the right to fly without touching the flaps!I would like to see your face when a skilled pilot dumps the flaps on a very short field landing.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

The reason for met code is in the “olden days” teleprinters were very slow so a way of reducing the amount of data sent was devised. Now however with high-speed data links the reason for the code is defunct.

Won’t stop it from staying in the system though. Far too many Luddites in aviation. At least on the East Side of the pond :) just look at most peoples attitude to GPS.

How pedantic can you get, the bit about flaps? :(

I was checked out once for flying at another club in the south of England. The instructor asked me to demonstrate a particular manoeuvre, vortex ring recovery. I did this, as was taught to me by a 38,000hr pilot and examiner. The instructor said no no no no you do it this way. His idea of the manoeuvre was a more sedate and quite frankly more dangerous recovery. It would never have time to work in the real world. For those not familiar with helicopters this situation, if you get into it, is almost always close to the ground. A bit like stalling on short final. He is teaching this to students. Shocking.

Works both ways.