Electra at CGN

[Ivan aromer]

I understand that an Atlantic Electra did a windmill start on the left inboard engine at CGN the other evening. How this happen on two crew airplane?

[Smokie]

What difference does it make how many crew you have ?

[latetonite]

an electra needs three crew, but the the connection to a windmill start????:eek:

[boxjockey99]

Atlantique had their L188 Electras converted to 2 crew operation. Not sure how but I sure know why!

[rotary]

Can anybody tell me how do you de-boost an Electra just after take off with two crew when you lose yor hydraulics?

The mind boggles!

[Chris cargo]

Rotary

I know this one! The AAG chief pilot told me. The captain lets go of the controls and pulls the handles himself because theres no use to holding the control column cause it aint doing nothing (quote!). With that sort of attitude from the chief pilot the 3rd seaters are probably glad to be out of it.

[SBA]

Chris Cargo,

Your quote of the AAG Chief Pilot is distorted to the point where you could follow a career in Fleet Street. You make it sound as if this is some crazy drill that has been invented by their CP. The reality is that with a gust locked aircraft the controls are to all intents and purposes locked. The only way to achieve any sort of response from the controls is to use excessive force in the desired direction. Now what do you think would happen if the controls were de-boosted whilst this excessive force was applied. For this reason, Lockheed, not the AAG Chief Pilot, state that no control input should be applied whilst de-boosting. The drill then is that the Captain will de-boost the controls whilst the FO will act as handling pilot and cover the controls. The whole procedure would take maybe ten seconds. It is not a situation I would ever like to be in, but I don't see that a third crew member would make any difference.
As for a windmill start without the services of an FE, I guess that it had never occurred to anyone at Atlantic that they might want a cup of coffee in the middle of this procedure!

[pullusapint]

Was this deboost procedure actgually demonstrated in flight during two crew certification then?

[CaptainCargo]

With no hydraulics no amount of force on the controls is going to make any difference. The controls are locked, so applying force to them before de-boosting is pointless. With three crew the flight engineer can deboost while the captain continues looking out the window. With two crew the captain has to bend to the right, reach down to the floor and simultaneously pull three cables, then hope that when he looks up his windscreen isn't full of terra firma. Personally, I think it's crazy. I was on an Electra where we lost all hydraulics just after take-off (Bus A failure during gear retraction), and if we hadn't had a flight engineer I do not think I would be writing this now.

[jones the steam]

Nice one SBA. Captain Cargo, whilst the loss on Bus A on take off is "not a good thing", it would not require deboosting the controls as you still have a Bus B powered hydraulic pump.

I can't believe that almost 3 years on, we still have this back-biting about flying 2 crew electra's. It's not some crazy move dreamed up by Atlantic. Lockheed, the FAA, and the CAA were all involved in the certification process, involving many hours in the Sim and also the aircraft itself. The Deboosting procedure was demonstrated (on the sim!) as were many combinations of other failures, and only then was 2 crew operation allowed.

The fact is, the Electra was designed around the 2 crew concept, but due to FAR regs at the time, all A/C had to have 3 crew. As anyone knows who has been in an Electra, the F/E doesn't have a panel as in the 727. All emergency procedures can be handled from the Capt's & F/O's seat with the exception of the secondary emergency gear extension which is accomplished from a handle in the rear of the flight deck floor, and is in any case not something which needs to be immediately accessible - there is plenty of time while flying round the hold for someone to go and and pull it if the the situation dictates.

I realise that the 2 crew concept is not something that some people are familiar with, especially on the electra, but trust me, it works, its enjoyable, and the truth is, if a different company came up with it, it would be seen as a great innovation, but as it was Atlantic, it must be dodgy!

Can we have an end to "ahh, but what if you have to deboost" back biting?

[rotary]

Well,my last post seemed to get people talking!

There seems to be a young impressionable crew member out there that is missing the point.

During the 10(ten) seconds that he/she is getting out of his/her seat,presuming he/she,(O.K. enough,you know what I mean),can get to the de-boost controls,in a hurry,without the aircraft going AWOL,is it possible for you to pull the controls without getting the cables into a tangle.

There had to be a reason why we always took off with the de-boost controls uncovered.

[SBA]

Rotary,

Atlantic still take off and land with the boost control doors open, and there is no need for anyone to get out of their seat to deboost the controls. This is practised on a regular basis during training and no-one has yet got the cables in a tangle whilst de-boosting.
I am speculating that with your L188 connections and the Eire connection that your association is with ACL, Hunting, Air Bridge. For many years, this company operated the Merchantman which I believe was built by Vickers as a 3 crew machine and subsequently modified for BEA for 2 crew operation. Did Hunting receive all this criticism over the 2 crew issue. Much like Atlantic, the STC was initiated by a previous operator of the aircraft type.

Chris Cargo,

If it makes you happier thinking that the Captain looking out of the window in a control locked aircraft can have any effect on events, then so be it. The Atlantic drill has the FO carrying out this role whilst the Captain deboosts and I really can't see what the problem is with this system. Perhaps a better understanding of your aircraft systems, as demonstrated by your Bus A comments, would remove some of your irrational fears.

For the uninitiated (or ill informed) a gust locked situation such as this would involve simultaneous failures of at least two un-related systems. After take off, the aircraft is trimmed for 10 degrees pitch up and should therefore continue to climb approximately straight ahead. A far worse scenario would be a gust lock in the latter stages of the approach, as the aircraft is set up to descend and will continue to do so. I firmly believe that in this situation my sense of self preservation would let me de-boost the controls in a more timely fashion than asking a third crew member to carry out the necessary actions.

The only people who are in a proper position to judge on the two crew issue are those who have operated both systems. Ask any Atlantic pilot about this issue and you will get a true reflection of the facts.

YES, BUT WHAT IF ALL THE ENGINES WENT INTO REVERSE AND THE WINGS FELL OFF? WHAT WOULD YOU DO THEN?

[Smokie]

Probably ! I recall " Jimmy the One" doing a "Three engine Ferry "in a "SIX" many moons ago ! I didn't think they could do that either, but don't quote me on that !

[SBA]

Ragspanner,

Actually the question was not "Did an Atlantic L188 carry out a windmill start the other night?" The question from the grammatically challenged Ivan Aromer was "How this happen on two crew airplane?"
Sorry to disappoint you all but if it did occur then it is all legitimate. Atlantic have procedures and training in place for this and three engine take-offs. Channel Express also hold approval for three engine take off, and I assume windmill start, as the operating technique is very similar for these two procedures.
It may seem unusual for those operating other types, but bear in mind that there are very few four engine propliners left in Europe. I assume you couldn't adopt a windmill start procedure in a twin and you wouldn't want to with fifty punters in the back of a Dash 7, so that leaves the Electra and the Herc. The Electra can, and does, adopt this procedure in the correct circumstances.
I believe the Herc suffers from a greater asymmetric control problem, which is one of the reasons that it is not on the UK register, so it may be a problem with a windmill start or three engine take off, however I don't have the facts to back that up, so it may be entirely incorrect.
Either way, it's no big deal in an L188, and it's legitimate, so get off our backs and find something more constructive to do with your time.

[Electraflying]

A couple of points regarding Electra flight controls:

1. Next time you're up training and at a safe height, turn off all hydraulic pumps without de-boosting. The controls are not locked, just extremely difficult to move. You can still manually port hydraulic fluid and move the control surfaces, allbeit with very reduced mechanical advantage. Although the aircraft was not certified to be flown this way, an average pilot, with the help of the trim tabs should still be able to maintain adequate flight path control.

2. Next time you're in the sim perform a takeoff with all hydraulic pumps off, not de-boosted, but ensure the elevators are in the neutral position prior to turning off hydraulics. Appy power, sit back and watch what happens. If the trims are set at takeoff position the aircraft lifts off on its own and flys away into the sunset at a pitch angle of between 5 and 10 degrees, with no pilot input, let alone a flight engineer input!

So, total hydraulic failure close to the ground, no big deal really. If it happened to me, I'd be inclined to control flight path with trim, get well away from the ground (2000-3000 ft) before de-boosting.

The problem comes when you have multiple failures close to the ground, i.e. hydraulic and engine failures. Very unlikely, but it has happened. An Electra was lost in Boston in 1960 when it encountered a multiple bird strike shortly after lift-off. Number one engine autofeathered, 2 others surged and their generators went off frequency (3 generator aircraft). However, not even the flight engineer could save them that day.

Statistically, the Electra is a very safe aircraft with much built-in redundancy and there's nothing to suggest that two-crew has changed that.

[CaptainCargo]

What sims that? The bolted-down box in Seattle? Did you see that video of the Argentine Air Force Electra that they have? Now , there was an example of someone trying to fly an Electra with no hydraulics, without deboosting. Hmmm....

You sound pretty confident. How long have you been flying them?

Good luck.

[Electraflying]

Argentine Navy accident: A few contributory factors by the 3 crew members:

They shut down a perfectly servicable engine.
They mismanaged a 3 engine approach and landing.
They struck a fuel bowzer on the go-around from the approach, taking out the left main gear, it's hydraulic fluid and shearing the coordinator on that engine.
In the final approach they e-handled the 3 remaining engines in the flare. Number 2 wouldn't feather and remained at around 75% power. Hydraulics were lost as B bus only remained powering a hydraulic system with no fluid. No one thought to de-boost before the approach, or to turn fuel and ignition off on the number 2 engine.
The aircraft climbed away on one engine, no hydraulics, not de-boosted, below safety speed, rolled and crashed.

They all walked away; a measure of the strenth of the Electra.

There is nothing to suggest that 2 crew in the same situation could have made any more mistakes than did 3!

[simufly]

Yes but the original post asked about doing a windmill start.
Is this an OK procedure on the electra?

[Electraflying]

Simufly -

There's nothing in the AFM that covers windmill starts. An operator wouldn't attempt one without approval, training and procedures. Perhaps someone from this company could elaborate. I'd be interested to know what the stipulated minimum field length was for this manoeuvre?

[SBA]

Ragspanner,

If Channel do not have procedures for windmill start, then I am sure that any Atlantic TRE would happily release details of the approved procedure. Atlantic have worked with Channel on matters such as this before, with Channel being extremely cooperative regarding three engine ferry procedures and reduced temperature take off procedures. As you say, the procedure is no big deal and is far less complex than the three engine take off for which Channel hold approval.

Captain Cargo,

I am sorry that you don't approve of the box bolted to the floor in Seattle, but the unfortunate fact is that it is all that is available. More to the point is the fact that Atlantic still use the facility, despite its limitations, for initial and continuation training. How do other operators train for system failures on a regular basis, as there is a limit to what you can do on the aircraft.

Electraflying,

The minimum field length is derived from the three engine take off flight manual supplement. This offers a minimum required field length with an abort up to Vr assuming acceleration on three engines, and the 14L/32R at Cologne would certainly fall within the required parameters.

[Electraflying]

Thanks for the clarification SBA.

Many happy windmill starts to all my friends at Atlantic :-)

[threestable]

Well SBA, instead of looking out the window on the 440 should the captain not have been pulling the firehandle! Or was that not required also. Don't people tire of being always 'right'? Bit off the subject I know, but this was on a flight with one extra member (or was he making the steely eyed captain a hot drink - coffee would have been good, might have woken him up!), as opposed to one less! Well thats aviation for you, tends to bite when least expected, or wanted. All we can do is ensure as SAFE an operation as possible exists. I am sure you agree, and can no doubt explain to all concerned how safety was enhanced by removing third man. How stupid could the previous operators have been for all those years.
I am sure that this had nothing to do with economics, so will not even mention it.

;)

[jones the steam]

ermmm hello???

Do you always go off at a tangent or was this post a one off?

[threestable]

Jones, as I had already stated my post was a bit off subject, so well done for picking that up. The original post topic had led to a (old) discussion about 2 crewing Electras. The single minded arrogance of a certain contributor is once again unleashed upon us all, which has prompted my previous post..
Hoping this clears up any misunderstanding......

:rolleyes:

[Electraflying]

Of course cost comes into it. Whoever suggested it doesn’t?

In today’s environment only those airlines that are constantly looking for innovative ways to cut costs without compromising on safety are going to survive.

Over the decades, crew numbers in the flight deck have been reducing and flight safety has been improving. Statistically flying is safer now than it has ever been and the majority of aircraft in the skies have only two pilots on board. Flight engineers, like navigators before them, will never buy into this argument. Who can blame them?

An aircraft is only as safe as its crew. Proper selection, training, and the continued exercising of good judgement, prioritisation and flight deck management are to me the fundamentals of flight safety, not the number of people in the flight deck.

Incidentally, I believe Atlantic do have a third person on board a lot of the time?

[I Kid]

Electra kid,

The third person on your Electra mate is no other than SBA, so take it steady kidda when the s### hits the fan one dark and stormy night, and voices from behind whisper " put that check list down son and remember what I TAUGHT Y............................."OUCH

:D ;) ;) ;)
RGDS
I Kid

[SBA]

Sorry folks but this has become so obscure that I really can't keep up with the train of thought. Is someone suggesting that the 440 should be 3 crew? If so why, and what relevance does it have to this debate.

I Kid, good to hear from you again.:D ;)

[threestable]

Ha, got a bit of spin going on this one! No, SBA not suggesting 2 crew types should be 3 crew, just giving an example of 'when sh!t happens, deviations from manufacturers intentions, specifications, or SOP's can be costly. Also highlighting what I previously termed your 'arrogance', or more accurately your general undermining of the third man, flt eng, whatever. What was his role on the Electra if the flask ran dry, or the coffee ran out? Please don't answer............

'It is not a situation I would ever like to be in, but I don't see that a third crew member would make any difference.
As for a windmill start without the services of an FE, I guess that it had never occurred to anyone at Atlantic that they might want a cup of coffee in the middle of this procedure!'

This attitude p!sses people off, or is that the intention? When you are not sounding off, you appear to be capable of logical debate.

Oh, before I go, Electra geezer, I quote:

'Over the decades, crew numbers in the flight deck have been reducing and flight safety has been improving. Statistically flying is safer now than it has ever been and the majority of aircraft in the skies have only two pilots on board. '

Over the decades, has not improvement in design, advancement in technology, and moderisaition of aircraft systems, all manifesting in the roll out of NEW TYPES, led to the demise of the flight eng, and made flying statistically safer?

Oh sorry, I forgot. After an extensive review some cbs were moved on the Electra, well that's alright then, I see what you mean ................!

I kid, 'parcheggio fatty!!':mad:

[threestable]

Quick question. if an Electra snuck up behind another aircraft (jet, or large turboprop), could he be 'blown by this buddy' to coax the problematic engine into life? No hoses, just air.

See, nicely back on topic!!:D :D

[SBA]

ThreeStable,

"When you are not sounding off you appear to be capable of logical debate"
When contributors to this forum question the legality of our operating practices (windmill start), the professionalism of our crews (the age issue) and imply a disregard for safety (two crew issue), I will defend our corner in any way I can. You obviously feel that I am over aggressive in the way I do this, so don't offer the provocation. If you have a pop at our pilots, I will have a pop back at you. Question. Who is watching your back?

Regarding the buddy start procedure, I don't know, but I believe there is a procedure such as this for the Herc.

[threestable]

I fail to see how be-littling the role of the many flight engs who subscribe to this website may be regarded as defending ones corner, or reasoned debate reference your company's position on certain issues. Still your perogative I suppose SBA. Your tone seems to have changed since this mornings post, why not pop in the Oak and have a couple of calmers.....

P.S. Fortunate enough to be working in an environment where back watching is not the number one priority.

Apologies to all for seemingly hijacking this thread, and getting involved in a head to head.
Enough. Made my point,going to enjoy the sun, with a pint or three.... SBA, I'll be the one with the burger and the thousand yard stare!! Don't forget your handbag..............

[company man]

Treestable, i say old bean, do you perhaps have a slight chip on your shoulder or as it seems to me a whole bag of chips, bwawawawaw.

My deepest regret I must bestow on you as it seems you are one of the discruntled 3rd seater that may have to view foreign shores with the prospect of gaining continuos employment. Hence your thousand yard stare.?

Cheers Now.

[bebop]

well it seems to me right, that ure all talkin bout something uve never had to do, yes the majority of turboprops can be buddy statrted, takes time and some power to do it,

guys right, go back to listening to ure airbands right.

[Electraflying]

Chris Cargo - I don't understand your posting?

Three Stable - Some of the technology you describe has already made it onto the Electra in the form of GPS/BRNAV, vastly reducing the workload on the flightdeck. Let's face it, the electra is an easy plane to fly! One pilot flies (even might have an autopilot, if he's lucky), the other manages and deals with the problem. No problemo!

I Kid I - make mine a T bone, well done and plenty of mustard!

[Engineer]

company man

Might be worth while reading the personal profile of the person you are about to comment on before hitting the submit reply button. Not sure how many 3rd seaters hold an ATPL rating and if they do must be siting in the wrong seat

[I Kid]

We also do a good Rump (ing) aswell as the famous 'T' Bone (ing) Chaps down at the GG !!. Anyway, I can remember attempting Windmill starts for all 4 on the Six at cvt, could never get the ******s started tho' on account '23' was too short for the tug to get any speed up !!!

Rgds

I Kid :p :p :p

[411A]

Cowboys here, I suspect.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Smokie]

Sounds like it to me as well 411a.

Who was it who "new best " on the Convairs flight test with the
CAA on board and transfered fuel in flight; when there was a warning in the flight manual not to ?

If I recall they ended up anealing the main spar, among other things ! Ooops !



I believe that there are a few ATPLS at Atlantique who hold FE license's as well, perhaps they shouldn't.:eek:

[Engineer]

If memory serves me right in the mid nineties there was only one PFE. The rest were wannabes seating in the third seat waiting for the opportunity to move into the right hand seat. The writing was on the wall then.

Saw a recent article in an aircraft mag about this company. One of the picture showed the electra captain who appeared to be in his early twenties. May be a good thing for PFEs to see this company go to two man crew

May be the wannabes made it into the left seat eventually after being given the stetson and six shooter :D

[threestable]

Afraid you couldn't be more wrong Company Man. Yet again an Engineer triumphs!! Trouble with me is I do not like to forget my roots, and yes they were oily, then Brown, then Blue and then Green. My only concern here is sticking up for what I believe; of course always being open to discussion. Your contribution to this debate is what exactly?? Never mind, back to your 757 and get the kettle on............ Oh, and I would invest in a new speelchucker if I were you.
All the best:p

Smokie, not actually sure that you can transfer fuel in flight, not intentionally anyway. Most Ive seen is changing the flow out of a tank, not into it. Stand to be corrected though, should this be wrong.

[200KIAS]

Chris Cargo,

Is this the Chris at the HUT on West End Lane during 93/94? If it is then email me mate. Jason:cool:

[freightdogg]

we lost the elevator in an aag electra going into brussels about 10 years ago. the failure was of the hydraulic ram that controlled the elevator , the failure occured at about 1500 feet on the glideslope so we were fully set up and trimmed , the fo asked me if i wanted to deboost the elevator <we had a flight eng on board too> but i chose to fly the thing down and flare using the trim wheel. it was a none event.one thing atlantic did teach you was how to fly a plane.wed all come off dc3,s were electra captains, and were still only in our mid twenties.ah those wrer the days.........;)

[Flight Detent]

Hi all,
What a shambles of a discussion!

I've logged around 6,000 hours in P3B & P3C airplanes, not including much simulator time.
Firstly, I wouldn't want to be aboard any L188 that tried to carry out a windmill start on the runway without an PFE!

Having done that maneuver many, many times in training rotations, the FE plays a very important part. He, in fact does all the propellor controls manipulation and calls the progress of the engine acceleration.
The Capt. attempts to keep the whole thing on the runway with the other three power levers, to get to the pre-determined Vr and back to a stand still.
The FO is busy monitoring the airplane acceleration, calling the speeds etc, and assisting with the rudder.
If I remember correctly, it's about 20 years ago now, the FE, after holding the PCO up to about 90 knots, then pulls out on the feather button, calls light-off and engine acceleration to about 40%, (fuel & Ign is already on), at which time the Capt. then starts to decelerate, if he hasn't already done so!
And the whole show stops at the other end with all four engines running.
And yes, somebody asked, you can 'buddy' start in the prop-wash of another turboprop I'm told, but I've never seen it done!

Manipulating the necessary controls during a runway windmill start requires all three crew. I for one would not fly in a two-crew L188 or P3.
If any one of you have tried to pull any one of those boost out handles from the Captns seat, which would have to be fully slid back. You will know that it is very difficult, especially if ANY pressure is being input into the relevent control!

I'm not even going to mention the inflight restart procedure with respect to no FE - nope, I'm not going there - in more ways than one!!

Cheers, I think! :uhoh:

[Bert Stiles]

Freightdogg

That was a bizarre reminiscence with which to resurrect this thread.

Which way did you move the trim wheel ? ( I think I know the answer because you're obviously still here), how did you analyse what you were going to do or had you rehearsed it previously ?
What was the rest of the crew's reactions when you briefed them about what you were going to do ? I presume this was all so obvious that a trip to a hold was inappropriate. Anyway I'd just like to know. Stir away.

Flight Detent

You did check the dates at the start of the thread didn't you ? I'm only replying 'cos I didn't see it first time round and can guess the identity of three or four of the contributors. Again I'm guessing but most of them would hardly remember what the fuss was about. As Jones the Steam, I think, commented - the L188 was a two crew aeroplane looking for an excuse for the third man. Whether or not this was a good idea for each particular type is an endless debate. Equally complex or even more complex types are two crew and less complex types are three crew. It was all part of continuous change - DC-4, DC-6, L1049, L188, Comet, VC9, Trident, Mercure etc, etc - evolution. Sooner or later no matter where the cbs were put, the F/E was on the way out. That is except for the bigger aircraft where they were needed for another generation. Personally I think that there maybe a good case for a third operator on the A380 but as I've never flown large, glass aircraft I'm probably wrong.

I can only say that from my experience of three crew aeroplanes that F/Es were never superfluous and prided themselves on making crap cups of coffee. I have been indebted to the sideways facing font of knowledge many times. Swipes at them being only fit for proping up bars, must have come from some strangely ingrained prejudice, but the commercial thrust to do away with waste is completely understandable. Nobody ever made an F/E fly in a company which didn't need them. Those F/Es who want to carp about young skippers invariably can't fly themselves - maybe they can do the driving but that isn't the same -- and I mean no disrespect at all to their situational awareness. Many F/Es are really good pilots when they've had their brains removed - I've had the pleasure of flying with some of them too, but most aren't interested in piloting, they just want to do a good job of what they're paid to do.

I don't think it was a shambles of an argument. There were vested interests and misunderstandings - deliberate or otherwise just like the rest of the BB. Overall, for those with first hand experience I think the two crew operation made complete and safe sense. So far it's justified. How long do you want to be a vulture ?

BS

[seagull]

getting the correct airport would maybe a good start.
it was the no.3 engine.
it was a non event!!!

[freightdogg]

we had very little time to think about it really, and also,wed positioned over with min fuel when the thing "locked up". the first thing i did was ask the fo if she could check her controls.of course she couldnt.we then checked the elevator trim and could get almost normal pitch control from that.the landing and flare were a non event. to answer the question as the power came off, i wound about one handfull of elevator trim towards me.i think!!!

[Rubberchicken]

Having performed a few windmill starts (even on the critical engine)myself, I can't see what the problem is. This thread is almost identical to one posted about 2 years ago when another electra was spotted at cgn doing exactly the same. When this next happens at cgn (and most likely will) can we expect a re-run of the whole ....." I think the electra 2 crew mod is a bad idea....." argument, which is what this thread boils down to and not the fact that an electra had to do yet another windmill start.:ok:

[208]

in the good old days with Hunting, we never did windmill starts, but I often paxed as the ground engineer on 3 eng ferries.

A nice old aircraft kind regards to all those who still fly them....and used to with hunting

[Ghostie31]

Whats windmilling???

:confused:

[Engineer]

When a turbo prop engine is shut down and the prop blade is not fully feathered the resultant angle of attack of the blade causes the engine to be driven. Amount of windmilling increases with aircraft speed.

A bit like a windmill as the wind increases the sheets go faster hence the term windmilling :O

[Kiwiguy]

Just for curiosity I used to work on Carvairs with two man crews, but how come the DC-4 which they derrived from needed an F/E ?
By the way our loadmaster handpulled a prop once.