Tooradin Prang

[TWT]

Light plane crashes at Tooradin airport (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/light-plane-crashes-at-tooradin-airport-20160320-gnmla9.html)

[crwkunt roll]

Time to buy a Tatts ticket. Incredibly lucky.

[Duck Pilot]

Jeez, looks very nasty - looks like a late model 182.

Great to hear they got out of it with minor injuries.

[pall]

Odd damage. Hard to understand what happened here. Glad all in it are OK.

[Ultralights]

seeing as there are no fatalities? is it safe to discuss possible scenarios without someone being offended on someone else's behalf?


No nose wheel, possible pilot induced oscillations on landing?

[Duck Pilot]

Probably better to wait until the dust settles ultralights.

[megan]

A new 182T struck three other aircraft, including a Piper Cherokee and Cessna 206, before coming to a halt, so one report says.

High winds they say which would explain the flapless, though jumpers were doing their thing, so how high?

Four survivors – a man in his 50s, a man in his 20s, a 31-year-old woman and a five-year-old girl were treated on the scene and taken to Frankston Hospital with light injuries, bruises and all shaken up.

http://imageresizer.static9.net.au/0u1GgkxfdmUX2AGOQ6ZjzpAbkxI=/718x0/http%3a%2f%2fprod.static9.net.au%2f_%2fmedia%2f2016%2f03%2f2 0%2f14%2f18%2f2003_planecrash2.ashx%3fw%3d603

CASA says it's a 182S of 1999, not new it would seem.

[Duck Pilot]

Insurance companies aren't going to like this accident, lots of damage if 3 aircraft have been bent.

[Ultralights]

wow, very lucky to have no serious injuries anywhere considering the damage..

[Duck Pilot]

What's the rego of the 182

[I spy]

VH-PCO...
RegoSearch | VH-PCO Australian Aircraft Registration Details (http://www.regosearch.com/aircraft/au/PCO)

[Sunfish]

Looks like the results of one of my crosswind landings. Maybe a little fast or a botched go around? However glad that all are safe.

[peterc005]

He landed on 04 and there was a decent crosswind from the right, but it should have been ok for a C182,

He came unstuck about 600 metres from the 04 threshold, appears to have veered off to the left and taken the tail off an old twin parked next to the runway.

Possible it got a bit hairy and he started a go around, got blown to the left and then clipped the twin's tail.

Never like parking on the grass at YTDN, it's too close to the runway and there have been a few similar incidents in the past.

[Squawk7700]

Thanks for your detailed account PeterC. Did you ascertain all of that after you did a 10 knot + downwind landing when you arrived at about 5pm, around 4 hours after the crash?


Problems arose at about the 100-200 metre mark of the landing. It all went pear-shaped from there. The Seneca lost it's tail, a Cherokee 180 lost it's rear end, a 206 lost it's wing and it almost took out a GA8 taxiing (possibly with up to 8 skydivers on board - not sure if they were coming or going).

Possibly near a hundred people went running over to the aircraft and patrons at the restaurant all bolted down to "help" from the restaurant. People were screaming, the mother of the 5 year old at the top of her lungs trying to get to the aircraft to get her child out. Some heroic quick acting locals extracted the pilot and passengers in a few short moments, with fuel pissing out of the wing. As they often say during these types of events, it was quite surreal and almost happened in slow motion,

They were all bloody lucky with a capital B, in particular the rear seat passenger as the 206 wing sliced through the rear pillar and tore the side out of the 182. Very nasty and a huge potential to have killed them all. Fuel pissing out, other aircraft nearby, a busy Sunday afternoon, people everywhere... it could have been a lot worse.

Conditions were good with around a 12 knot wind at around 090 degrees on runway 04.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc75/1821.jpg

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc75/1822.jpg

[Ultralights]

wow. insurance company nightmare, but still cant believe no one was seriously injured.

[Mr Milk]

Peter, I think you'll find the red stuff at the front of the 182 is the red dye from the propeller hub.
Good to see VH-XXX/squark7700 keeping up appearances at YTDN, some things never change!
Looks like an excellent outcome for all involved. Hopefully any injuries are quickly healed and all the nice looking equipment is sufficiently insured.

[ACMS]

Tooradin can be a bit of a pain to accurately ascertain the wind direction especially since they don't like you flying over the top with jumpers around and even aeros overhead......( understandably )

either way that doesn't stop you from carrying out a missed approach should you make an error.....

Glad know one was seriously hurt today :ok:

[octant]

For those who were there, if you have the time, could you please let us know the sequence of events (i.e. what actually happened when things went "pear shaped")?

[ACMS]

Back to your corners boys, this is not helping.

[gerry111]

"Back to your corners boys, this is not helping."

I agree.

But the apparently venomous relationship between Squawk7700 and peterc005 makes for great late night entertainment over a pleasant glass of red. :D

[peterc005]

@Mr Milk - what red dye in the hub do you mean?

There seemed to be a trail of similar fluid on the ground. The only fluids I can think of in a Cessna are Avgas, engine oil and brake fluid?

The fluid was red (wrong colour for oil), to heavy for fuel and appeared to be the right consistency for hydraulic fluid. The trail on the ground were blobs about the size of 50 cent coins spaced about 30cm apart for maybe 50 metres.

The fluid seems the same color as the stuff on the front of the cowl.

Not a big deal, just curious.

@gerry111 - I've got no idea who this squawk person is and don't care.

[Squawk7700]

Red Dye is Apparent on an Aircraft Propeller (http://www.propellerman.com/red-dye.html)

[Sunfish]

"red dye"? Mil - H - ????? Hydraulic mineral oil. Its in my brakes as well.

[edsbar]

As pointed out previously it is not MIL-H-5606, most McCauley Propellers are dye filled .....

http://www.mccauley.textron.com/MPC26OWrev1.pdf

On oil-filled propellers, the hub cavity is partially filled with red dyed engine type oil which is sealed in the hub and isolated from engine oil. This oil provides lubrication and corrosion protection to blade bearings and other internal parts. The oil is dyed red to aid in the troubleshooting of suspected propeller leaks

[peterc005]

Learnt something new. thanks for the reply.

[IFEZ]

Squawk7700 - Are you saying there was only a 12kt wind from 090 or was it 12kts of xwind at the time..? (It was a fairly stiff easterly where I was further down the peninsula).


Either way, certainly not beyond the capabilities of the aircraft. Its hard to understand how things could go so wrong, although there's no doubt that executing xwing landings is a degradable skill, which you can get pretty rusty at if not practiced regularly. (Unless he did in fact get hit by a 'freak' gust of wind as reported).


So lucky they all escaped relatively unharmed. Shame to see PCO gone, it was a nice A/C, but at least no one was seriously hurt or worse.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Geez, lucky it didn't catch fire. AirServices put the Fire station at Ballina, not bloody Tooradin!

[Squawk7700]

Are you saying there was only a 12kt wind from 090 or was it 12kts of xwind at the time..?

A couple of us estimated 12 knots from 090 degrees, so a 50 degree crosswind from the right (you can do the numbers on the actual crosswind component).

The nearest weather station is Cerberus and the observation for there was as follows:,

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc75/wind.jpg

Therefore, 7 knots gusting 12, although it felt like a consistent 12 at the airfield. I don't recall it lulling to 7 knots; you'd notice that. Albiet, Cerberus is not Tooradin.

AirServices put the Fire station at Ballina, not bloody Tooradin!

Credit should go to the local CFA; a dedicated station may be a little OTT. They were there very quickly and when I say quickly, I mean less than 10 minutes and it's a 4 kilometre drive. Being a Sunday I suspect they were already at the station for training. They were very professional, took the wind into account, cleared non-essential personnel, set up a crime scene, worked with pilots to get the fuel and power off, covered up fuel etc and it all went on from there. It was all an interesting experience to watch the pieces come together.

AMSA were also on the phone within minutes as the beacon went off due to the impact. (Where's Leadsled, this one actually worked!!!) 3 ambulances arrived one by one within 20 minutes or so. It's good to know that the system works should you need it.!

[rutan around]

the beacon went off due to the impact. (Where's Leadsled, this one actually worked!!!)Yair but like most things electrical/ electronic it took three whacks to get it going.:} Most crashes don't get that chance.:{

[Mick.B]

Video here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZsyPIkcGjE

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thanks Mick,

Interesting....

Cheers:ok:

[Tankengine]

Very confusing video, aircraft totally out of control spearing into the parking area at high speed.
Never been there so cannot figure out where a runway is?

[UnderneathTheRadar]

In the background is an old ship - the runway is pretty much halfway between the ship and where the a/c came to rest. It's track, as opposed to heading, looks to be along the runway 04.

Lucky escape for the skydivers sitting in the aircraft with prop turning - one to the right and theyd have been in trouble.

[Ultralights]

ahh the sudden wind gust. still a very lucky result.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Had a look at Tooradin on GE, and could not see a windsock...

Where is it please?

[zanthrus]

There is almost always xwind at Tooradin.
I reckon this is all bull****. A poorly executed xwind landing with a belated attempt to go around far too late is my guess. No way to get that far left to smash through the ramp area at Tooradin without lots going pear shaped well before the event.

In a C182 with some mass and inertia xwind landings would be far easier than a Aeroprakt Foxbat or a Texan, two LSA's that regularly operate at Tooradin with no problems.

I say the PIC simply screwed the pooch, plain and simple.

Glad everyone got out ok.

Sad for the aircraft owners who got their aircraft wrecked.

[Cloudee]

Griffo, maybe a yellow one, just right and forward of the Edwina May wreck. The ERSA suggest that's about where it should be.

[gerry111]

"Had a look at Tooradin on GE, and could not see a windsock..."


ERSA shows one roughly half way, along a line drawn between the thresholds of 04 and 32.

[peterc005]

The two main wind socks at Tooraddin are either side of the runway, about half way down.

One is near the sky divers office, the other towards the old ship. Both are yellow. The one near the ship is worn and half-missing.

Wonder if the tattered windsock and proximity of the parked planes to the runway will be a liability issue?

[Squawk7700]

What about big yellow windsock right next to the runway adjacent the Bristow helicopter terminal taxiway, right there on the right-hand side of runway 04, perhaps 300 metres down the runway?

You could not have a better placed windsock for an informed landing on 04.

[LeadSled]

(Where's Leadsled, this one actually worked!!!)

SQ7700,
Which proves what, exactly?

Nobody has ever claimed a 100% failure rate, and as aircraft losses go, this is more akin to a very heavy landing, a prolific source of false activation.

As for you smarta--s comments, due yourself a favour and indulge in a bit of self education, get a copy of the CASA post implementation review of the present regulations, but you probably don't want to let the facts to conflict with your prejudices.

Tootle pip!!

[Squawk7700]

All good LeadSled, it was more a comment regarding the fact that it actually worked given so many don't. It was nothing personal in any way. I know it's a topic close to your heart.

[Squawk7700]

Busy week this week at the ATSB.

Final report released:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5770928/ao-2016-023-final-report.pdf

[LeadSled]

the beacon went off due to the impact. (Where's Leadsled, this one actually worked!!!)

Folks,
All that proves is that 95+% failure rate is not 100%, and in this case, clearly, a hand held PLB would also have "worked".
The failure rates are what they are, and a matter of CASA record, but any of you that want to spend $$$$$$ on a fixed ELT, be my guest, but it is still a waste of $$$$$$, but to those of you whose prejudices are set solid, what's a fact or three between friends.
Tootle pip!!
PS: As a matter of interest, where was the aerial, did the cable survive, or was it the ELT built in aerial what was broadcasting a short range signal??

[kaz3g]

I'll never be embarrassed by one of my landings ever again!

Kaz

[Squawk7700]

Good question re the aerial, it was still connected and working. It also worked on 121.5 when disconnected but was quite faint so it may not have been well received. As for the satellite aerial someone would have to comment on whether that would be picked up or not when the main aerial is disconnected.

[andrewr]

The failure rates are what they are, and a matter of CASA record

I have no doubt it exists, but I have never found this study and I'm interested to read it.

What I want to know is the failure rate in crashes on land with survivors since that is the situation I am most likely to have a personal interest in the result.

I could be wrong but it wouldn't surprise me if the study was done from the point of view of saving search expense, which would give a very different result.

[Squawk7700]

I like it how the pilot comments in the report directly contradict the video footage from the airfield of the accident :rolleyes: But then the report wraps it up quite tidily clearly indicating the cause, without attributing blame. Well written with a subtle finding.

[no one]

Reminds me of the 12th man
"So Rick, did you have a blowout in a sandshoe as many believe, or did you just stuff up?"
Rick Disneck: *eeeeeerrrgh* "No Darrell, I just stuffed up."

[cowl flaps]

Except that the 12th Man didn't use the words 'stuff up' :E :E

[Squawk7700]

There's a lesson in this one for all pilots, particularly those with less experience. It wasn't mentioned in the reports main wording, but was mentioned in the summary of changes thar the flying school will be undertaking.

Sick bags.... There were none on board. The front-seat passenger spewed his guts dout all over himself, shirt and down his pants.

I can't help but think that this would be a significant distracting factor for the pilot. I've been there myself and it's bad enough with a sick-bag available. You tend to want to get on the ground as soon as possible and are more likely to make mistakes, particularly in an aircraft you don't commonly fly.

[glenb]

Sorry Squawk but that information is not factually correct. There were sick bags on the aircraft, they were utilised, and broke on impact.

It was an internal finding to ensure that we always have sick bags, rather than leaving it to good luck rather than good management.

The dangers of the PPrune investigation.

Cheers. Glen.

[rjtjrt]

Why are sick bags made of paper?
Opaque plastic sealable bags would seem preferable.

[Squawk7700]

Ok Glenb, that's fine, I believe you if you say that they were in the aircraft and used; seems strange though, as the passenger told me otherwise when I assisted getting him out of the wreckage moments after impact.

The dangers of not being at the scene I guess... Maybe he was in shock and disbelief at what just happened.

[Capt Fathom]

Maybe he was in shock and disbelief at what just happened

As was the pilot no doubt! Probably why his recollections differed from what you saw on a video.

[Ultralights]

eyewitness testimony in accident scenarios is notoriously unreliable! human memory does some very strange things in unusual situations.

[IFEZ]

Why are sick bags made of paper?


Best sick bags are the ones you get from hospital. Managed to 'commandeer' a few last time I was visiting someone. They're the ones with the hard circular plastic ring with a collapsible plastic bag attached. They're quite compact but once opened up have plenty of capacity and you can twist them closed once your passenger's finished using them. http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Failing that, a freezer bag used as lining inside a normal paper bag works ok. Depends on the capacity you need..! http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/pukey.gif http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif


There's no doubt though, having someone throw up in the enclosed space of a light aircraft is somewhat off putting. You just have to try to ignore the smell and get on with it. Easier said than done though, I know.

[Capt Fathom]

I find it quite surprising the first words uttered by someone who had just survived an aeroplane crash would be... Mate! There were no sick bags on board!

[glenb]

Despite trying a number of products over the years, the product that makes the best Airsick bag and is virtually indestructible is the foil type bag from the Roast Chicken shops. Its designed to be sturdy and leak proof, and is quite large.

Despite that, the single feature that will always make the Roast Chicken Bag, the ULTIMATE airsick bag, is the

REHEAT INSTRUCTIONS ON THE SIDE.

[Squawk7700]

I find it quite surprising the first words uttered by someone who had just survived an aeroplane crash would be... Mate! There were no sick bags on board!

Mate... when you're covered all over in spew, it's quite embarrassing and especially when it rubs off on someone else... :-)