100 hours twin for just $5495.00????

[PA28]

Has anyone been to Ari Ben Aviator to do some hour building on the twins? I have just read februarys Flyer and they have an advert saying you can build 100 hours twin time for just $5495.00, can anyone shed any light on this offer as it seems to good to be true.

[Island Air]

Maybe its riding shotgun on a charter? There is no way you can get P1 multi at 50 bucks an hour. In the states both pilots can log P1 due to their weird regs, but for JAR it would not count, neither would any airline recognise it.

[bow5]

:) Hands up if you love JAR!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[PA28]

Is it possible for ways around this problem so that two pilots can claim P1? I know its a long shot.

[pottster]

Be very careful. I looked at this before and the way it works is; if you are working under FAR rukes and are flying in an aircraft with another pilot. If you are flying IFR then the second pilot, or safety pilot, can also claim P1. This is an American system. I checked with the CAA and under no circumstances can you do this under JAR rules. The US flying schools conveniently ignore this. ' Will anyone find out you ask?' well maybe not but do you want to take the risk?

[Megaton]

Two pilots could log P1 under FARs but I would suggest, that the CAA would view this very dimly indeed. In the US, one pilot could be under the hood for simulated IMC whilst the other pilot acts as safety pilot. I believe in this situation, the safety pilot is the legal PIC with repsonsibility for terrain avoidance and aircraft seperation while the pilot under the hood is the sole manipulator of the controls. Two pilots logging the same time for the purposes of hour buidling towards JAR licences should not be contemplating this approach.

[Island Air]

Bow, there can only ever be one pilot in command of an aircraft. You will find that it is only the yanks who allow this type of thing to happen. It has got nothing to do with JAR.

[spitfire747]

Thereb is nothing better than honest P1 hours. You will thankyou yourself at the en of your airline interview and your given the job

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Sounds very nice,but while it would be nice to have 100hrs twin time in my log book.The 100 hrs of actual Twin experience is what I would rather have, rather than just some nice writting in my log book. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Tosh McCaber]

Why don't you phone ABA and ask the question- then let us all know?

[Megaton]

Just spoken to them and it is "two pilot operations with one pilot logging simulated instrument and the other PIC."

[spitfire747]

I guess that is the rule of thumb with the aviation industry, if it looks too good to be true, it usually is.

Goodluck all

[Capt. Horatio Slappy !!]

Hello All !. .I used to be an FAA Flight Instructor prior to flying charter then commuters and now FR8.. .I gave over 1800 hrs of Instruction and flew over 1300 hrs FAR Part 135 with 2 crew.. .The only time the FAA allows two pilots to log P1 time is in the case of a non-instrument rated pilot receiving Instrument Instruction for the attainment of his Instrument rating in actual IMC conditions by a certified Instrument flight instructor under an Instrument flight plan filed in the name of the said Instructor. That is the only time this would be the case.. .In 135 charter operations it is not unusual for the operator to request and be granted permission from the FAA to use Second In Command Pilots as part of their operation, this authorisation takes the form of an inclusion in the operators Operational Specifications ( List of FAA authorisations and compliance requirements for the operators Air Carrier certificate ). .Most piston twins do not require two crew and any Second in Command may log only that time that they actually manipulate the controls THAT TIME MUST BE LOGGED AS SECOND IN COMMAND as stipulated in their letter of authorisation to operate as Sec In Comm post successfull checkride.. .This SIC time will be sold at 25 to 50 bux an hour depending on the block-time purchased.. .Alternatively you may yourself rent a twin for a block of time that may realistically cost from 120 to 200 dollars depending on the amount of time purchased and the type rented, I have seen an old Piper Apache go for 85 dollars per hour ' Wet ', this was some years ago.. .Instead of listening to stupid advice from JAR folks who obviously revel in their mis-perceived superiority and have absolutely no clue about what they are talking about you may e-mail me direct for additional info about flying in the U.S. or anything else I may be of assistance in.. .I am an Ex-Brit currently flying FR8 for a living and would be glad to help!!!

[onehunga]

They also run the aircraft and maintenance 24 hours a day. Therefore your slot could be at midnight. Take the plane back late or turn up late and expect bad bad things to happen.

[Island Air]

Whats wrong slappy, couldn't make it in Europe eh? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> At least postings like yours give us light relief in these hard times. :)

No matter what slappy says, this practice is very common in the US, it is not a JAR v's FAA thing, it is a common sense thing in that any airline worth its salt will not employ someone with phoney twin time!

[JJflyer]

Island Air... Used to fly little light airplanes loooong time ago. I often rented a Seneca and took friends with me. I was PIC I did let the other guys fly as we did share some of the expences. Anyways what they put in their logbooks was nobody elses business but theirs. They could have logged all as P1 and I could have not cared less. And would Airline give a toss if the fellow was alone in the airplane or not... As long as he performs on the simride. DUH

Before we get this emerging ( Not again ) JAR / FAR pissing contest to full swing I want to point out that Europe has a lot to learn from all that " nonsense " " Yanks " do. General aviation is in a lot better shape there than it is here in Europe. . .I fly on a FAA licence and validations. I have had lots of grief while trying to get work with it in Europe ( Nowhere else though ). Luckily I fall into the ECAC category. No problems since.

If you feel that 100 hours of multi in your logbook will enhance your employment prospects go for it.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Island air:

You are so right, just don't tell all the thousands of first officers around the world that they are building phoney flight time.

The JAR's truly were written for deep thinkers like you with the ability to understand what a waste of time sitting as a second in command is.

Yup what we need is more self trained experts that do not have all that real world exposure to clutter up their minds.

What you should do is just skip the flying part and get a job writing rules for JAR, just imagine all the inovative ideas you could come up with to " fix " aviation.

.............. . :) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[Check 6]

There are other instances where both pilots in a required two-pilot crew may log PIC time under FAR 61.51 and 135.

Examples: A type rated pilot receiving instruction from a company flight instructor (also obviously type rated). Both may log PIC time.

A non-type rated pilot (not designated as the aircraft commander (P-1)) who is the sole manipulator of the controls on a non-passenger leg under FAR 135. Both may log PIC time.

The FARs do not follow the JARs.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Slappy,I don`t think we JAA types are superior.Far from it.I think Europe has a whole has a lot to learn from the way flying in the States is done.. .Unfortunatly I don`t have the right to live and work anywhere else but in the UK,so I have to jump through their hoops to get a licence.. .I don`t really care what other people log as flight time,but if I had 20hrs to log in a Twin,I would want to be the PIC,purely and simply because I need the experience to learn.Sitting next to someone may help,but I need the hands on myself.

[JJflyer]

Yip A type rated pilot in an airplane that requires 2 pilots may log PIC when " the sole manipulator of controls " Ie. It is his leg to fly. How else you think you could ever meet the 500 hours PIC in type required for insurance purposes. More and more airline requirments are dictated by insurance companies, regulatiosn adjusted accordingly. Have a look at the regs, both JAR´s and FAR´s. You will see what I mean.

[Pilot Pete]

JAR's FAR's, whatever.

If you intend to log these twin hours and come back to the UK to seek employment with a UK operator just ask yourself this question;

I have to pass the interview to be offered the sim ride where I can impress them to hell with my flying ability. One question that is absolutely, positvely, definately going to be asked of you at interview is where did you get your twin hours. If you have 1000 from flying air taxi you have no problem. If you have 100 out of a total time of less than 500 and they were all bought in the US whilst you were acting as 'second pilot' and not actually flying the thing then you may have a hard time convincing them of your merits. Rightly or wrongly the interviewer is UK based and most probably biased against this practice. Do you want to get the chance to sim test or not?

Better spending you money on an instructor rating and then teach, go para-dropping etc to get some 'commercial' flying under the belt and keep pestering the school if they have twins, they may let you position them for maintenance etc etc and then you'll be getting the odd twin hour here and there. Make contact with the air taxi outfits and keep in touch with them personally, right place, right time and all that.

Good luck, think hard before parting with the greenbacks!

PP

[Jetavia]

I have a friend who went there .. he nearly got all the hours he wanted (got a refund for the hours not flown) and left happy .. although there was some time wasted waiting for aircraft coming out of maintenance .. plan to fly evenings and at night then there should be no problem getting 6-8 hours in a day .. but plan to use 1½ month to fly 100h you can choose to buy sole PIC at $ 110/hour or just log the 50 hours where you are PIC and use the rightseat time to get some experience reading maps etc.

[MAX]

Employers wont even sniff at 100hrs twin at the moment. Ive seen some pretty bl**dy impressive cv's come across my work recently. Save your cash and wait a bit.

MAX <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[slim_slag]

Slappy

The only time the FAA allows two pilots to log P1 time is in the case of a non-instrument rated pilot receiving Instrument Instruction for the attainment of his Instrument rating in actual IMC conditions by a certified Instrument flight instructor under an Instrument flight plan filed in the name of the said Instructor.

Not true under FAA regs.

<a href="http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/art_pilot.htm" target="_blank">Logging PIC - FAA web site</a>

[quote]. .Normally, a safety pilot, required by regulations, who scans for traffic for a pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions is not pilot-in-command and thus logs second-in-command. However, if the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is designated pilot-in-command, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command may log PIC since he is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft. The pilot flying is "sole manipulator of the controls for which the pilot is rated"" and may also log PIC. Therefore, two private pilots may log PIC under these conditions.. .<hr></blockquote>

This happens all the time.

I've heard of operations with three logging PIC.

Sole manipulator of controls under hood - LHS. .Legal PIC & safety pilot - RHS.. .CFII giving 'instruction' - Back Seat

[Megaton]

Slim_Slag

Thank you. I had looked high and low for those words. Whether or not it's ethical is another question altogether.

[apple]

well said that man

[jmore]

it never fails to amuse me! the snobbery that you jar boys have -as an faa certified pilot i see many hour builders show up in the usa with their caa/jar licenses and have to spend 20 hours flying with an instructor just to be safely signed off (rarely have i heard an instructor in the uk complain about faa licensed guys) the fact that you actually defend a system that is set up so that only the wealthy can make it makes me ill-it is perfectly legit to fly 2 pilot ops if one is making it all simulated instrument -how else do expect him to look for traffic! and your remarks about having a midnight slot? who cares if your under the hood you dont see anything anyway! lazy ******s the lot of ya,its no wonder the airlines pay better here!

[Polar_stereographic]

jmore,. .. .Good night in the bar?

[IRRenewal]

seen the advert from Denim Air on the Flight International web site for First Officers?. .. .They require 100 hours multi if flown in Europe or 300 hours multi if flown elsewhere.. .. .They know what the score is in the US......

[lock wire]

Here's a foot note to this discussion which some might find interesting. I have a copy of a letter from the FAA which is a response to a question an FAA-designated examiner posed here in Southern California (the regs being commonly interpreted differently by different pilots):. .. .The FAA states quite clearly in this letter that in the event of the two pilots holding commercial licenses, BOTH may log the time as PIC if prior to flight one pilot is designated the the handling pilot and one as the non-handling pilot.. .Personally I've only done this on one occassion where we thought it may be appropriate to share the workload on an IFR flight into LAX in a light twin.

[slim_slag]

lock wire . .. .Couple of points. You can log PIC as safety pilot (in FAA land) if you have a Private licence. You don't need a commercial certificate.. .. .Regarding your flight into LAX under IFR in a light twin. This is very likely a 'single pilot' aircraft and so no second crewmember is required UNLESS he is safety pilot. The safety pilot is required for separation purposes only when in VMC. If you are in IMC then ATC becomes responsible for separation and safety pilot is no longer required crew, so cannot log PIC.. .. .Therefore, the only way you could both log PIC is if you are in VMC, you are 'legal PIC', and the pilot handling is under the hood. If that was not the case, somebody needs to go back and make a change to his/her logbook <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .You don't get to log PIC in a light twin on either side of the Atlantic if you are just handling some of the real PIC's workload, even if you are looking out for traffic.. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 19:53: Message edited by: slim_slag ]</small>