SEP over water - do you? And if so how far will you go?

[Airbornestu]

I've just returned to flying after a bit of a break and I'm looking for things to do - trips to undertake, qualifications to add etc to keep the passion alive, broaden my skill set and keep the accuracy up, rather than get stale flying local VFR trips.

A couple of trips I'm idly considering are a trip to the Isle of Man for the TT races this summer - to provide moral support to someone I know racing there, to nip down to Le Sarthe to watch the Le Mans classic, and to pop across to the Scillies to meet a chum who's sailing there.

All require an overwater leg. The Scillies is the shortest at about 30 miles, the IoM would be 40-45 and the cross channel from the SW is 100-120 miles.

I did a cross channel check ride years ago. I was nervous then about an overwater flight in a fixed undercarriage aircraft - if the donkey stops the ditching options are exceptionally limited. Now I'm older and allegedly wiser, it still doesn't fill me with joy.

And yet I suppose when I add night or IMC ratings my ditching options are going to be very limited, and any flying over mountainous terrain also leaves few options. And so far the noisy oily spinny bits have kept being noisy, oily and spinny... And the MTBF is pretty high with aero engines.

So I guess it's all in my head. Fear of sinking, trapped in an upturned cockpit or something. So what's a normal approach to over water flights in a SEP? Do you guys limit yourself to 'within gliding distance of land' or are you all grizzled ferry pilots with countless North Atlantic crossings under your belt? Or perhaps somewhere in between? How do you mitigate the risk when flying in any 'limited landing options' environment?

[alex90]

Hi Airbornestu,

I have done quite a few Channel crossings, but most of them were in the South East of England Lydd - Le Touquet was a really common route for me (partially because I am based out the south east, and partially because I have this fear that you're talking about).

The way I look at it is, I will fly as high as I can (within reason) in order to limit the unlikely event of having to ditch (by having greater glide distance). Or that should I have to ditch, I would endeavour to have as much time as I can to at least attempt an engine restart / change tanks / call mayday and find a big ship nearby to get them to pick me up (and maybe prepare a couple of margueritas for my arrival). When I cross the Channel by the Isle of Wight to over Cherbourg, I try to climb to 10,000' because I've calculated that my risks were substantially lower up high than they were down low. [probably overkill looking back although the cloud tops were around 9,500' so I guess it worked out pretty well!].

A friend of mine does the long crossings at 4 or 5000' and say "Well, that still gives me plenty of time to restart". He has done numerous crossings into IoM and over into Ireland from there too, although I understand that he climbs to 10k - 14k on a regular basis to do so.

I've never been the Isles of Scilly, but that's definitely on my list! Hopefully soon!

Good luck with the night & IMC ratings! They've boosted my confidence dramatically, I hope they will boost yours too!

[The Ancient Geek]

The ability to glide to safety is critical, and that means height.
A VP prop is a big help here, if you pull the blue knob all the way out a 182 will glide a LOT farther than a 172. Be prepared, know the correct speed and settings for best glide range and be prepared to waste some time climbing over land to make sure that you will have enough height and some to spare by the time you get to the halfway point.

If the distance over water is longer hire a proper immersion suit and dinghy and get properly traind to use them. Always carry a good quality rescue beacon and get your mayday call in ASAP while you have the height to be in radio range of help.

[Pace]

Flying is all about risk management and in an SEP there are obviously risks flying over water.
You can minimise those risks by not flying over water on windy days where those pretty white bits 2000 feet below are 20 foot waves close to.
Fly as high as you can! Note the position of boats and ships and wind direction
The chances of a complete engine failure are small and more likely a loss of power so keep an eye on the engine gauges , fuel quantity and if you have carb heat check regularly.
Don't set off late in the day where should you go down there is a short time till darkness and search and rescue will have problems
Talk to someone and preferably be on radar
But it is risk management and some are prepared to take more risk than others
I don't like SEP at night and must admit admire the guts of those who do long ferry flights in SEP planes over the North Atlantic
Unless you stay within the UK you have to fly a water crossing and I have done in the past many times but its amazing how a normally smooth engine always sounds rough over water especially the mid part:E

There are irrational fears where we can talk you out of it and get you to look at things in a different way and there are rational fears. This is a rational one so all anyone can do is minimise the risk and take the chance how big a chance or how long a crossing is up to you

Or reduce it further by flying a Cirrus :ok:

Pace

[Jonzarno]

Flying is all about risk management and in an SEP there are obviously risks flying over water.
You can minimise those risks by not flying over water on windy days where those pretty white bits 2000 feet below are 20 foot waves close to.
Fly as high as you can! Note the position of boats and ships and wind direction
The chances of a complete engine failure are small and more likely a loss of power so keep an eye on the engine gauges , fuel quantity and if you have carb heat check regularly.
Don't set off late in the day where should you go down there is a short time till darkness and search and rescue will have problems
Talk to someone and preferably be on radar
But it is risk management and some are prepared to take more risk than others
I don't like SEP at night and must admit admire the guts of those who do long ferry flights in SEP planes over the North Atlantic
Unless you stay within the UK you have to fly a water crossing and I have done in the past many times but its amazing how a normally smooth engine always sounds rough over water especially the mid part:E

Pace

I fly the channel once or twice a month in a SEP and would support everything that has been posted above plus:

Carry a GPS linked PLB such as a McMurdo Fast Find (on your body, not in your flight bag!) where you can get at and activate it easily.

Wear a life jacket: you won't have time to don it on your way down to a ditching.

Keep a life raft close to hand where you can get it out easily. When I'm single pilot, I keep mine on the passenger seat strapped in by the seat belt together with a water proof, buoyant, ditching bag containing my hand held radio as well as dry clothes and shoes.

Do a ditching course: it's a real eye opener!

When flying the crossing, I keep my No 2 GPS tuned to the nearest airport and monitor it so I'll know immediately the heading and distance and whether it's in glide range or not if the engine fails.

All that said: there's no greater probability of something going wrong over the sea than at any other time (although, as Pace has said: my engine also has a warped sense of humour, seems to know when it's over water, and tries to wind me up by making funny noises every time I fly the channel!).

[Romeo Tango]

I have crossed the Atlantic 6 times in a SEP.

I agree with the above, be sensible about it and it's a very good risk (at least the Channel, IOM etc), but these things are subjective.

It's up to you.

[alexbrett]

A VP prop is a big help here, if you pull the blue knob all the way out a 182 will glide a LOT farther than a 172

I though in most VP aircraft oil pressure was used to take the prop to the coarse position, with the springs taking it to full fine - if the engine fails won't your oil pressure disappear and thus the prop go fine regardless, or is the windmilling prop turning the engine going to produce enough pressure?

[Pace]

I will add as a scuba diving enthusiast that the sea is a very powerful unforgiving force! Close too you see that energy that power and have to respect it
At 2000 to 5000 feet cocooned in a nice warm invirinment it's unreal!
The shock of one minute being in that vertically distant environment and meeting the Cold sea at close quarters In a ditching must be immense !
Maybe knowing the sea at close quarters makes you more aware ? What do others who sail think ?
I have a friend who years ago was ferrying a Cessna SEP over the North Atlantic he had a fuel transfer problem and ended up with a stopped engine in IMC 200 miles from land
He spiralled down breaking cloud 500 feet ASL and above the only fishing boat in a 100 miles
He was picked up and had to help for the rest of the fishing trip before going back to port days later! How lucky was He ??

Pace

[Flyingmac]

Avoid launching out over water with an aircraft that's just out of maintenance. I survived an engine failure through sheer luck and a modicum of skill.


I still fly over water, well beyond gliding distance to solid ground, but only in aircraft I have faith in.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I used to do it - IOM, cross channel, but that was when I was young and immortal. Later, I had a re-think and decided SEP over water isn't an acceptable risk. Why? Because one dictum I have stuck to in 30 odd years flying is 'always have an out'.

If the engine fails over land, your 'out' is a forced landing which should have a pretty good chance of turning out OK as long as you don't fly over miles of forest or somewhere else unlandable.

Over water, especially around UK, if the engine fails you are probably going to die. Especially in a Chipmunk (fixed gear, no space for a dingy etc). Even in a retractable with a dingy your chances are a bit better, but not that much.

So will the engine fail? Almost certainly not. But how lucky do you feel, punk? A piston engine is a mass of reciprocating and rotating parts all eager to part company with each other, with a thin film of pressurised oil preventing the whole thing seizing up. That they work at all is a marvel. I've had them fail and I know folk who've had quite a few fail. It does happen.

And when it does.... where's your 'out'?

[Sir Niall Dementia]

19 solo single-engine Atlantic crossings. Got more sense now. Le Touquet or Alderney is as far as I'll go in a single these days.

SND

[Pace]

SND

19 crossings ? I have done them in the luxury of a jet high level and even then the expanse of ocean is huge. Often thought of the poor guys and girls flying SEP way below very slow.
with Piston failures I have had you have more guts than me :ok:


A piston engine is a mass of reciprocating and rotating parts all eager to part company with each other, with a thin film of pressurised oil preventing the whole thing seizing up. That they work at all is a marvel. I've had them fail and I know folk who've had quite a few fail. It does happen

Pace

[9 lives]

Yes, many times over the years, with caution, and preparation. Higher is possible, full floatation suit if the water is anything cooler than tropical, and a life jacket in any case.

Funny, when I was type trained in a Bell 206 helicopter on floats, the flight manual supplement for the floats actually said to avoid flight over land!

[crispey]

An elderly pilot back in the 70s ferried a Tomahawk from the USA to Manchester for The Manchester School of Flying(MSF)

I never got to speak to him but some people in here might have done.

I did do Manchester to Dublin Via IOM years back with P1FEL in a Cherokee and A.N Other following.The CFI waved us off with the encouraging words that engines don't know they are over water do they.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

engines don't know they are over water do they.

Never heard of 'automatic rough'?

[Pace]

A lot is psychological )) how many of you relax when you see a distant shoreline or even the line of cumulus which marks the shoreline before you see it
Way out of gliding range but still just the sight of that destination relaxes you
IOM always has a big blob of cloud marking it on even blue sky glorious days

Pace

[Rwy in Sight]

The CFI waved us off with the encouraging words that engines don't know they are over water do they.

The only time I flew a great distance (as a pax on a SEP) I thought the same thing as I was concerned about engine reliability.

[Rod1]

If you are planing a trip over water do the maths first. If you take the short crossing, it is 18.25nm. What height do you plan, what is typical wind, what is your aircraft's glide performance. For my aircraft I am typically out of gliding range for 90sec. Do the same for the north sea and the numbers are not so good.

Do not assume you will be able to get into a dingy unless you have had specialist training. Tests done by Plymouth Uni showed that almost nobody without training will get in in open water. The tests were done using fit young students:) who were expecting to get wet, not your old overweight average PPL who will suffer temperature shock from a nice warm cockpit to UK sea temp.

I keep my crossings as short as possible and fly as high as I can.

Rod1

[crispey]

"Never heard of 'automatic rough'?"

Plenty of that on the golf course I play on.

[Capt Kremmen]

Don't do it ! I won't cross Clapham Common pond.

[9 lives]

Never heard of 'automatic rough'?

That's what floatplanes go to when you fly them over land!;)

[piperboy84]

Have just landed the Maule after flying from Perth to Jersey , about 85 miles of the journey across the water, it feels good, sure there's the ass pucker factor but worth it.

[Mark 1]

On most long flights there are likely to be periods when there are no good forced landing options. Flying over water has an increased risk, but it's not disproportionately higher.

Most ditchings are survivable with the right equipment and preparation assuming rescue comes in a reasonable time.

The up-side is that you are often flying in less crowded airspace and in smoother flying conditions with no hills, masts or other obstacles. Your journey may well be shorter and cheaper too.

Do your own risk assessment, but you may find that it's not such a bad option.

[Piper.Classique]

What Pace said. ...
I fly the cub Cherbourg IOW with a PLB and a life jacket. Couple of round trips per year. I prefer that to miles of pine forest. YMMV

[mary meagher]

That famous water landing in the motor glider...on the way back from the Isles of Scilly, engine failed, so they turned back toward Scilly, but couldn't quite glide far enough, so arrived in the water, after giving a Mayday on the radio. They then climbed out onto the wings. The motor glider floated very nicely.
THEY DIDN'T EVEN GET WET! A rescue boat took them on board, and then tied a line round the prop to tow the Grob back to the beach, but when they took up the strain, the aircraft dived for the bottom! They cut the rope, and it surfaced again, so they tied the line to the tail of the aircraft, and in that configuration it towed back nicely to the beach.

The German manufacturer was pleased to hear about the aircraft's seaworthy behavior, but was unhappy that the engine failed to keep running. Nonetheless it was washed and greased and lovingly restored, and I believe is still flying today.

[Jetblu]

I have posted on this subject before, but some may not have heard. Both Jonzarno and Pace are right. Engines do play psychological mind games over water, but as always, it's purely all in the head. I've done thousands of miles in 30 years over water, incident free, until one day in 2009 minutes after departing Lydd in the cruising climb I suddenly developed much reduced manifold pressure. It all went down hill after changing tanks with the use of the mechanical pump. The PA 32 glides like a brick. It all happens very fast. Thankfully it does, but the art is getting right first time. You get one chance at this.
I did nothing different that day than was what was taught to me 25 years previously.
If you are in a retractable, your surviving percentages increase from what I have read statistically. Fortunately, I was. Flying over water is awesome, don't not do it because your're scared. If my next one happens in another 25 years, I will be be ready for it, as I each time I cruise out from the coastline. Good luck and enjoy.

[BossEyed]

This is worth reading: Ditching Myths Torpedoed - equipped.com (http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm)

Ditching in a fixed gear aircraft in the English Channel is probably not going to kill you in itself.

Protect yourself in the water and get quickly located are things to plan sensibly for, in the event a ditching occurs - so immersion suit (or dinghy) and GPS PLB as a minimum.

Plus a considered Mayday call ("I'm ditching. Here I am...") on the way down from your high-as-possible transit altitude will help a lot. As will landing close to a vessel, with which height and time will help find - I'm told by the RNLI that a yacht or ideally ferry (Manoeuvrable: Lots of eyes on board) is far better than a tanker or freight carrier.

Simply thinking "It's a SEP with fixed gear: I'm definitely dead if the engine stops" is not only demonstrably wrong, but fatalistic and could well guarantee a bad outcome if that's your view.

Pace, how does the SEP being a Cirrus help at all? It may actually hinder, given now no crash attenuation under the chute due to a crushing undercarriage.

Mary: It was/is G-WAVE.

[Jonzarno]

Pace, how does the SEP being a Cirrus help at all? It may actually hinder, given now no crash attenuation under the chute due to a crushing undercarriage.


Not Pace, but that isn't right. There have been several (I think six) successful chute pulls over water and no serious injuries. Here's just one example:

jOMcL4siWYs

This was a trans-Pacific ferry flight on which a valve on one of the ferry tanks jammed. As you can see, the pilot was unharmed.

[Pace]

Jonzarno

That Cirrus plopped down into the Ocean very gently and this is why I mentioned the Cirrus for regular sea crossings

The chances of getting a calm sea especially around the UK are slim and coming down into a heavy swell with a lot of forward motion would be like hitting a brick wall.

In that situation I would take the relatively vertical profile of the Cirrus and use the chute

Thanks for putting up that video

Pace

[foxmoth]

I think over the sea is one place I would rather use the chute than try to "land" it, not sure I want to fly Cirrus though - seem to be far too many engine failures!!

[AdamFrisch]

This is why I went to a twin as soon as I could. Far too many nasty places below us for singles. Much greater fear for me in a single is the Amazonas or thick forests. That's a place they'll never find you.

[Above The Clouds]

Jonzarno
Not Pace, but that isn't right. There have been several (I think six) successful chute pulls over water and no serious injuries. Here's just one example:

This was a trans-Pacific ferry flight on which a valve on one of the ferry tanks jammed. As you can see, the pilot was unharmed.

And did you see how quickly the aircraft got dragged under the water, if the chute had turned the other way on touch down it would have dragged the aircraft with water flooding into the cabin and he would have drowned.

[300hrWannaB]

Quote
An elderly pilot back in the 70s ferried a Tomahawk from the USA to Manchester for The Manchester School of Flying(MSF)

Interesting. I got my PPL(A) flying Tomahawks at Manchester School of Flying. When you say "elderly" do you mean it was the CFI? Or do you have a name? Those little planes barely had enough fuel to do a qualifying cross country!

[Pace]

And did you see how quickly the aircraft got dragged under the water, if the chute had turned the other way on touch down it would have dragged the aircraft with water flooding into the cabin and he would have drowned.

That pilot very sensibly had jammed the door open ! How well you do will depend to a certain extent on how slow your plane flies
We all know how much damage a car will do in a 30 mph head on crash! A lot
Those pretty white caps from 3000 feet will turn into brick walls of water close too
Anything which reduces your horizontal motion will improve your odds
On faster aircraft even into wind will still have a serious impact with a wall of moving water
Hence with the Cirrus although it has horizontal movement with the wind in heavy seas it is a better option to use the chute

Pace

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Pace;

I'm not quite so heroic. All bar one were in Cessna 208's, brand new going to Europe/Africa.

I went swimming in the North Sea before that after everything went wrong in a helicopter. I have never been so cold/scared/petrified in my life:{

SND

[Pace]

SND

You are still braver than me :ok: having flown that route high level and high speed a number of times it still seemed a massive expanse of water to cover. Not even warm water but freezing water and usually rough.
i know the sea at close quarters too well )

Turbo prop single maybe but piston single ? You have guts ;)

One occasion I was asked to do the crossing in a Cessna 340 which had experienced engine problems up to Canada the other pilot walked out.

This aircraft was fitted with a large ferry tank which you had to crawl over to get to the pilot seats on your stomach and then drop down.

it was massively over gross weight with fuel in the tank and I realised that failure of the bad engine would mean no more than a stretched glide into the sea.

The remaining pilot filled the ferry tank when we didn't even need it to save money on fuel cost after we discussed it and agreed not to fuel it and I flatly refused to go unless he emptied it again.

Luckily that wreck of a 340 was grounded by an inspector who was going through the area at the time for other reasons so neither of us got to fly it back

Strangely when it was ferried to India a while later it ended up at the bottom of a lake 20 miles from destination so a really jinxed aircraft. The indian pilot who moved it to its home airfield 30 nm further on after the ferry turned the fuel off not knowing how to fly the thing

Pace

[Above The Clouds]

SND
All bar one were in Cessna 208's, brand new going to Europe/Africa.

The new ones are the worst for failures, out of the 56 I did around 30 were in singles both turbine and piston, out of the singles 10 were new from the factory, out of the 10 new ones 9 had some kind of major event going across the atlantic :uhoh:

[spittingimage]

Interesting experience there, ATC.

I have flown 60 SEPs transatlantic, mostly new from factory. On my ferries of new aircraft I almost always got problems, if any, before reaching the coast. New aircraft = double-edged sword ! Trim runaway once, and a couple of rough-running episodes are all that I can recall actually over the ocean, plus getting hit by lightning once.

Packed it in 5 years ago; reckoned I had got away with it long enough. Am 70 now and I will not be repeating it. Glad I did it though. But too many good guys out there, much younger, experienced too, finally did not make it …

[Maoraigh1]

In the Iron Curtain days, a guy surreptitiously built a Druine Turbulent, escaped to the West, then crossed the Atlantic in it. Volkswagen engine.

[Jonzarno]

Maoraigh1

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Posts: 919
In the Iron Curtain days, a guy surreptitiously built a Druine Turbulent, escaped to the West, then crossed the Atlantic in it. Volkswagen engine.


Diesel? :O

[UV]

Avoid launching out over water with an aircraft that's just out of maintenance. I survived an engine failure through sheer luck and a modicum of skill.

So right. And also applies to ANY flight just out of maintenance.

[Airbornestu]

Thanks for the responses - lots of things to think about there.

For what it's worth, I sail and I used to dive, hence my healthy respect for the sea! Thinking about it, with a few phone calls and a bit of blagging, I might be able to get in to a helicopter ditching simulator through work - worth a try and better than a day in the office. I've already done a sea survival course but no harm in being well prepared.

I have also experienced the 'auto rough' mentioned above - both in an aeroplane on the way back from Jersey and also at sea when the engine note in an old boat seemed to change the more the wind blew up!

I also get the point about not taking an aircraft straight out of maintenance on a 'difficult' flight. Best to give the 'F*** up fairy' chance to work her magic whilst options for a safe return exist.

[Steve6443]

I think over the sea is one place I would rather use the chute than try to "land" it, not sure I want to fly Cirrus though - seem to be far too many engine failures!!

Why do you say that? Or do you have any factual data to underscore your perception? Cirrus use the same TCM installation as other aircraft so in my eyes, the engines in Cirrus are neither more nor less likely to fail as other installations in GA. However I would seriously suggest you fly one, you might even like them and prefer an SR20 over your usual C172 / P28A spam cans......

[Curlytips]

Joined this thread a bit late, but here goes....

Was returning to mainland after the Guernsey Rally. Just over Casquets when I felt a "nudge" in the engine. Asked my better half if she'd heard it - but no. Then suddenly it started to run really rough. Yes - she'd felt that! Alderney was in sight and we turned towards it, and as soon as within gliding distance, pulled throttle to save the engine (had previous experience of very expensive engine loss).

Glided in safely, and was left with the problem of what to do next as no-one available to help. Fortunately, phoned back to Guernsey and another rallyist could pick us up and get us back to Rochester. When we eventually returned and fixed the a/c, the problem was a rocker gear which had broken off, which meant a new cylinder. The other 5 had kept going until we decided to glide, but it still felt extremely rough.

Changed to a 4 cylinder Lycoming now, and by comparison to the Continental it feels relatively bullet-proof, and have no quandaries about launching over water, but am always aware and ready to react!

[crispey]

""Quote
An elderly pilot back in the 70s ferried a Tomahawk from the USA to Manchester for The Manchester School of Flying(MSF)

Interesting. I got my PPL(A) flying Tomahawks at Manchester School of Flying. When you say "elderly" do you mean it was the CFI? Or do you have a name? Those little planes barely had enough fuel to do a qualifying cross country!""

No it wasn't the CFI,who was Frank Pilkington back then.It was a pilot hired for the job I assume.The Toms you trained on may have included that one.I think it had a reg of G-BMSF or similar.I never used it myself,doing all my time on the PA 28s.I was there from around 1974 to 1988 approx.

I will ask P1FEL and he may post a more informative reply for you

[p1fel]

Referring to MSF's PA38 112 Tomahawk.
It was one of a very few (if any) ferried over from the US manufacturer Piper in 1978.
From what I recall at that time, most Tomahawks were crated into the UK in kit form and assembled in Oxford UK for the UK market.
The MSF PA38 112 became G-BMSF, I don't recall it's N registration.
It was flown across the North Atlantic by a 70'ish ferry pilot who had retired previously, several times he said, before accepting this ferry.
If I recall correctly, his name was Hillier Dubois (or something similar) a US ferry pilot.
I recall he flew from CYQX to EINN direct, night stopping there.
The following morning to prepare for the leg from EINN to EGCC the Tomahawk had a massive Mag Drop. The Lycoming engine didn't miss a beat up until the magneto failure he said prior to leaving EINN.
The aircraft arrived a day later after the magneto was replaced.
I recall the fuel tank in the place of the right seat and he informed us he flew the ocean at FL110.

[Planemike]

The MSF PA38 112 became G-BMSF, I don't recall it's N registration.

N4277E............

[foxmoth]

you might even like them and prefer an SR20 over your usual C172 / P28A spam cans......

My usual aircraft would not be a C172/Pa28 and I would certainly not prefer an SR20 as it is not aerobatic!
Agreed the perception may be false, but there seem to be an awful lot of reports of Cirrus parachute descents - maybe it is just that they are less newsworthy if it is not under a 'chute, but that also suggests that the non Cirrus types manage to get away with it OK!

[hollo]

I tried to put some numbers on this when I was considering over water flights in my microlight. When your single engine is a 2-stroke with 1000 hours on it and your speed over the water is only 40kn it doesn't take much of a water crossing to get you anxious!

There's a lot of guessing here, but the orders of magnitude should be about right. My 2-stroke had had 2 failures in 1000 hours, and speaking to other microlight pilots with a lot of 2-stroke time an engine failure about every 500 hours seemed a reasonable guess. If half of ditchings are survivable (probably pessimistic) then every hour out of glide distance of land has a 1:1000 chance of ending badly. The risk of a fatal crash in GA (and microlights are similar) is about 1:50000/hour flown, so flying over water out of glide distance in a 2-stroke microlight is about 50 times more dangerous than flying over land. So for me a cross channel trip at 5000ft with 10-15 minutes out of glide distance from land was as risky as 10 hours of normal flying, (or 2-3 months of my 3 hour round trip commute to work by car).

A more reliable engine and a faster plane with a better glide makes water crossings safer, but it should still be possible to frame the question in terms of "how many hours flying is this crossing as risky as" and get an idea as to whether its a risk you want to take.

[Pace]

Hollo

I take your point but then the faster the aircraft the less likely you are to survive a ditching.
In your microlight into wind your forward motion will be at snails pace.

we have all seen a car crash into a brick wall at 30 mph, hitting 20 foot block of moving water would be similar.

Ok if you limit your crossing to nice high pressure no wind days with a flat calm sea your chances of survival are probably high in slower and faster aircraft but in my experience pilots cross in SEPs when its windy and white caps cover the sea

On those days which around the UK probably account for 70% of sea conditions you are better off in something with a slow stall speed which will plonk down into the ocean rather than ploughing into it, so your better off in the microlight

Statistics are great but not so great if its an unlucky day and the failures or partial failures in pistons I have experienced means I don't fully trust them.
Too many moving parts

But its risk and sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go


Pace

[spittingimage]

'Too many moving parts' indeed, Mr Pace !

And all trying to get away from each other !

Maybe I have been lucky, but with my logbooks totalling 3,500+ hrs now, mostly SEP, I can honestly say that I have never had a real engine failure.

My old instructor told me emphatically 'Don't fly crap aircraft !' and seemingly I never have. To that I would add a personal recommendation never to fly in crap weather either. I confess to having done plenty of that .. and pretty scary much of it was too. But I am still here.

Caveat aviator.

SI

[strake]

It would be interesting to know approximately how many SEP's fly across the channel on an annual basis. Comparing that to the number of ditching incidents over say a twenty year period would give an interesting statistic. Just from my own memory over that period, I would suggest it's less than ten but happy to be corrected.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The AOPA guys did a study on the survivability of ditching. I don't have the exact number but I recall that 90 + % resulted in all surviving the ditching and exiting the aircraft. Survivability after the ditching was obviously heavily dependent on how close help was and whether or not the pilot/pax were wearing life jackets.

My home airport is on a spit with water adjacent to one end and about a mile off the other end. If it is busy it is not unusual to be out of gliding distance of land while in the circuit. For that reason and the fact that there is a lot of other water nearby, I always were a constant wear type horse collar style life vest on every flight in a SEP.

I also fly sea planes and the survival numbers are much lower because of the sudden unexpected and usually violent upsets that occur when control is lost on the water. Here the survival numbers are much worse, with typically people drowning inside the aircraft before they can get out.

A egress course is IMO an absolute must if you are flying or even in a seaplane. As a very experienced scuba diver plus a regular breath hold diver I thought it would be a piece of cake. How wrong I was :uhoh::eek::{

This training provider had a mock up of a small light aircraft trainer cabin. You were strapped in then they submerged it gave you a good shake and shuffle and left you upside down. The first time I ended up totally disoriented and was never able to escape, instead the safety crew had to raise the cabin above the water. I tried it 6 more times include blindfolded and by the end was secure in the knowledge I could escape pretty much no matter what happened.

However if that first time had been a real crash I would probably not be writing this..........

Finally you can only escape an crashed aircraft in the water or on land if you are conscious. The No 1 way to ensure you stay conscious after the crash is to have and wear a shoulder harness. I will not fly in any aircraft that is not fitted with one.

[fireflybob]

Some good advice here too:-

Ditching Safety Sense Leaflet (http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130121SSL21.pdf)

[+TSRA]

Mostly good points above about doing the math, gliding distance from shore, proper equipment (aircraft and personal).


But here is the thing...the airplane doesn't know it's over water. You can have exactly the same argument about crossing a major mountain range, flat prairies in the middle of the winter or a desert in the middle of summer. It always comes down to proper pre-flight planning and you should not have to put extra effort into flight planning if you're doing it thoroughly enough to begin with.


There is always risk mitigation required, but consider that airplanes come out of maintenance all the time and go across big swaths of water. An engine failure is just as likely the hour before a maintenance check as it is the hour after and this is where proper pre-flight checks and run-ups are worth their while.

[Pace]

TSRA

I get your point but this is still the level of risk you are prepared to take.
Pilots will do all manner of things like flying over fog banks or at night where they are in the laps of the Gods if the Donkey goes bang.

I have always tried to fly with an out and over long stretches of rough sea, at night or over fog you have no outs

It then becomes a game of Russian Roulette hoping that flight doesn't hold the bullet even though there are 9999 empty slots in your gun you still have the one which is not empty

If I had a gun which had capacity to hold 1000 bullets and loaded one and gave the gun to you would you put the gun to your head and pull the trigger? There is no difference

Pace

[+TSRA]

Pace,

Slight difference. If I fly over water and the engine fails, I will have planned to have the survival equipment in place and ready to once I put her down and will know in advance how to egress. I can't very well survive a self-inflicted gunshot wound, no matter how much preparation I put into it.

I never said don't fly as high or leave yourself in a position where you have no outs. I actually said completely the opposite: do your proper planning in a manner that flying over water is simply a different consideration to flying over land. Perhaps this simplicity comes from years flying above the clouds where the only thing telling you you're over water is the colour moving map, but that's why I say treat water as a consideration rather than as a specific plan all to itself.

I'm always amazed at how people will plan more for a flight over water than they would flying over a major metropolitan area. Frankly, I would prefer ditching to have to find a place in a downtown core. Yet for most people they wont spend a second thinking about the city but will fret for days about water.

[UV]

An engine failure is just as likely the hour before a maintenance check as it is the hour after

As someone who has done a fair amount of air tests and post maintenance flights I'm sorry but I cannot agree!

[+TSRA]

As someone who has done a fair amount of air tests and post maintenance flights I'm sorry but I cannot agree!

UV, so have I and that's why I said it.

Sure, the post maintenance flight prior to releasing the aircraft back to service may result in an increased exposure to further maintenance actions. But once released to service, there is typically no increased risk from one end of the schedule to the other. Therefore, the average pilot is just as likely to have an engine failure (or other maintenance issue) following maintenance as they are coming up to it.

I say this having done quite a number of engine break-ins and other maintenance test flights. The only engine failure I've ever had was 5 hours prior to an inspection, but I've sent just as many airplanes back into the shop following maintenance as I've sent coming up to an inspection.

[UV]

Thanks for the explanation, now I understand what you are saying.

Here in the UK (I assume you are in the US) for light aircraft, we no longer have a requirement for an Air Test (by a suitably qualified pilot) following maintenance or engine replacement. There are some exceptions.

So, generally owners are now free to collect their aircraft, post maintenance or engine change, without these aircraft having been flown at all.

Hence my comment.

[+TSRA]

UV,

Canada, but yes I see your point now too if there is no air test required.

[old,not bold]

I flew an old, poorly maintained ex RAF trainer from Gatwick to Sharjah, a long time ago. This involved several over water legs, the Channel, Nice to Rome, Brindisi to Athens, Athens to Rhodes, Rhodes to Cyprus, Kuwait to Bahrain. The engine stopped once, while climbing through cloud over the Italian mountains (damp magnetos). Luckily the tired, time-expired Gipsy Queen kept chugging along while I was over water, prepared as I was for ditching with an loaned RAF life-jacket, 10 miniflares and a VHF of limited power. The engine eventually caught fire on take-off from Baghdad, due to a maintenance error before I left.

I was at the age when you just don't think of the risks, and rightly so. I had 110 hours in my log, total, when I left, so I knew all I needed to know. My test-pilot uncle, who had form after crashing the prototype and only Vickers Windsor in 1943, said that of all the stupid things I had done, that was the most stupid (which was saying a lot), and he was right.

But I lived to tell the tale, and so will you, Mr OP, probably; so go for it is my advice, and expand your horizons. Nothing is quite as dangerous as it appears to the terminally cautious. The probability of a normally maintained and operated piston aircraft engine failing without warning is infinitessimal unless you mis-manage it or your fuel; how often has your mass-produced, poorly constructed car engine just stopped for no reason half-way through a trip? Never? Thought so.

You are a lot safer in your SEP doing 200 miles over water than you would be sitting down the back of a nice big ETOPS aircraft which has just had an engine shutdown, and is starting a 420 minute single-engine diversion across the Southern Ocean with the crew hoping like hell that the other one holds up. Or even a 330 minute diversion. IMHO, of course.

PS; I admit I had some undeserved luck as well. When the engine stopped over Italy, instead of gliding into a mountain, deadstick, before coming out of the cloud, as I reckoned I was about to do, I came out of the bottom of the cloud, and there 800 ft below was an air force base so secret it wasn't on the map, with a nice long runway. That's when my T21 training at Lasham proved useful.

[Romeo Tango]

Yes, what the terminally cautious forget is the fun factor. When one is 23 (and some of us don't grow up) the risk is balanced by the challenge and fun of doing it.
Lets face it if any risk is "bad" one should ban motorbikes, surf boards, swimming, boats, pretty girls, skateboards, coca-cola, horses, fast cars.......

Some enjoy the intellectual challenge of minimising the risk, but for me the marginal chance of death involved flying SEP across the Atlantic is far outweighed by the amazing sight of Greenland coming over the horizon on a clear day.

I'm not saying one should endanger 3rd parties of course.

[Airbornestu]

?..how often has your mass-produced, poorly constructed car engine just stopped for no reason half-way through a trip? Never? Thought so.
Twice actually. But I blame that more on my penchant for Standard Triumphs than anything else in particular. On both occasions rapidly falling oil pressure was followed almost immediately by a loud 'banging' sound coming from the engine and then a conrod making a break for freedom through the side of the block. Once on a 'dolly' sprint and the second time on a Spitfire.:{

[funfly]

Interesting. I got my PPL(A) flying Tomahawks at Manchester School of Flying.

I did my Instrument training with them - certainly taught one a lot about radio work.

My wife learned to fly with them, but that's another story. Costs were a big factor then with a £140 teaching flight often costing over £350 due to landing fees and circling for hours over the flats.
Happy days.

FF

[BrianRoth]

It is not only about personal risk tolerance/attitude to risk, but also about intelligent management/mitigation of risk. I've done IoM, IoW, Scillies, Channel Islands and France several times.

A key consideration for me is sea temperature. I avoid Channel crossings during Winter and Spring, flying only in mid to late summer.

Low temperatures significantly reduce survivability in the water whilst awaiting rescue. Even if you pull your EPIRB in good time, it might take the S&R helicopter or a passing vessel 30-45 minutes to pluck you from the water. In winter that is approaching your survival limit.

I've done the ditching course. Twice. As others have noted, getting into a life raft is not that easy, even from a relatively calm and warm swimming pool.

Over water I fly with a raft and grab bag in easy reach of the exit and wear an EPIRB and life jacket.

[Flying Lawyer]

SEP over water - do you? And if so how far will you go?

Reykjavik to Narsarsuaq 770 miles/670 nm approx (en route Thruxton to Dallas).
4.9 hrs including about 0.5 exploring the ice-cap before landing.

A truly wonderful experience - and a guaranteed way to cure 'auto-rough'.

Romeo Tango sums it up well:For me the marginal chance of death involved flying SEP across the Atlantic is far outweighed by the amazing sight of Greenland coming over the horizon on a clear day.And, in pre GPS days, first sight of the airport confirming that you've flown up the correct fjord. :)

As does old,not bold:Nothing is quite as dangerous as it appears to the terminally cautious.


http://www.airport-data.com/images/airports/small/037/037801.jpg

[Pace]

This maybe way off topic but I had the pleasure of meeting Sarah Young at a Party held for the launch of the Klipper around the world yacht race.

Thinking of comments attributed to the Sea being a very dangerous force and one which has to be very respected made me think of the comparison.
She was in the water for less than an hour but they could not revive her.

We are miles away from Reality sitting in a warm environment a few thousand feet up admiring those pretty whitecaps from a distance.
The shock of being there and a few minutes later trying to land in a wall of 20 foot waves and meeting the sea in all its force must be a massive shock.

Sarah Young was a bright bubbly, adventurous person excited at the prospect of this next new adventure now she is no more.

There is a risk and this sort of flying is about what level of risk you are prepared to take.
Sarah was unclipped from the safety line and because of that perished so we should learn from that which doesn't mean sitting in our safe, warm cockpits in jeans and a T shirt with a life raft and jackets tucked away some where in the back but taking every precaution

Don't fly near Dark but make your crossing in the morning

Don't attempt a water crossing if white caps are visible as we all know the damage a car sustains hitting a brick wall at 30 mph

Be properly clothed for the crossing

Wear life jackets and have the life raft at hand

Keep good communication and make sure someone knows your position along the crossing.

You may make risk decisions for yourself but do you have the right to make those decisions for others who don't know or appreciate the risk or may not be as fit as you.

Alone its our choice and no one to blame but ourselves if the cards are stacked against us

Finally a comment from Skipper that in any risk sport there is always the ultimate penalty to pay even with precautions and it is the spirit of people that makes us do these things so while having seen that view of Narsarsuaq in the picture above from a multi engined Turbine I admire those people who fly single piston all that way over a hostile invironment as they have more guts than me

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The probability of a normally maintained and operated piston aircraft engine failing without warning is infinitessimal unless you mis-manage it or your fuel;

Just not true. Aircraft piston engines can and do fail through no fault of the pilot. It's rare, but not that rare. If you've been around aeroplanes for a few decades you'll know of many such incidents. I certainly do, including one such collection of whirling and reciprocating bits I was sitting behind.


how often has your mass-produced, poorly constructed car engine just stopped for no reason half-way through a trip? Never? Thought so.

Never? Don't be so presumptuous! Several times, actually, and not in old bangers, either. Cracked distributor cap (2 year old Beetle), snapped cam belt (Ford Cortina a few years old, belt well inside its swap date), failed coil pack (2 year old Omega), coolant pump failure (another quite new Omega), rupture of high pressure fuel injection line (scary - Cavalier). Probably others I have forgotten.

And bear in mind that an aircraft piston engine runs at much higher power settings for longer than any car engine does.

You are a lot safer in your SEP doing 200 miles over water than you would be sitting down the back of a nice big ETOPS aircraft which has just had an engine shutdown, and is starting a 420 minute single-engine diversion across the Southern Ocean with the crew hoping like hell that the other one holds up.

Bollox. The failure of a modern turbofan engine is hundreds of times less likely than a piston engine failure.

[Romeo Tango]

IMHO we need to agree to disagree. Flying a well maintained SEP over water/fog has a risk which is small but not zero.

Some will take that risk for a perceived benefit. Depending on your point of view this is due to a lack of imagination or a better understanding of statistics.

Throw the dice if you want to, otherwise stay home.

[Pace]

Might not see eye to eye on the EU question with SSD but I also have experienced the reliability of aircraft engines.

Continental had a very bad quality control at one time and I had 3 rocker shafts on a nearly new engine part company on a Seneca Five at 200 feet in the climb out
After investigation continental apologised after discovering the 3 shafts were way over torqued at manufacture and replaced the complete engine within 2 weeks
Also remember these are not modern engines but a pretty old design.

I am not for one minute saying don't do it and I have crossed the channel at wider points too many times to remember but having flown USA UK a number of times high level with two jet engines I really admire the guts of those bumbling along low level in tiny single engined pistons.

my friend also a jet pilot used to ferry singles and had the luckiest escape ferrying a tanked up Cessna. He had a fuel transfer problem and the engine stopped midway in IMC, bursting out at 500 feet ASL he came out over the only fishing vessel in 200 miles and luckily was spotted and rescued

Pace

[Flying Lawyer]

those bumbling along low level in tiny single engined pistons



I think (and hope) you meant to say bimbling.

Similar words but very different meanings. :)

[Pace]

FL

Both would probably suit :E

Pace

[Fly4Business]

Just wondering what would have happened to the whole idea of aviation, if Lindbergh would not have crossed the atlantic in a SEP (and to a large extent extremely low level (http://www.charleslindbergh.com/history/timeline.asp)) ... would we be still sitting on trees or looking for the other cell in the ocean?

Yes, I do fly cross ocean in SEP and no, I do not see that as extraordinary dangerous.

[Pace]

Fly4business

I really do admire you for your adventurous streak and obviously we need people like Lindbergh to push the boundaries. You could say the same of any pioneering adventurer who has sailed the world single handed or climbed Everest.

All us more cautious ones are saying is take every precaution you can to minimise those risks
If you come down on a cross Atlantic Ferry and perish you won't hurt anyone on the ground or sea and will bob around frozen in the Ocean thinking it was my choice, my risk.

There is a risk 99 out of 100 you will be fine but if your ever unlucky enough to hit the 100 flight make sure you have every angle covered so you stand a chance. As for making a risk decision for others who are unknowing? We don't have that right

Pace

[Fly4Business]

@Pace: I am not that adventurous, but risk-aware.

There are signs we currently live in a world of cowards, which would be unable to built the world we are living in, thus consuming what the braver generations before us did and following degradation of capabilities as every society not evolving.

Part of the game is to be aware of the knowledge that safety only means a risk of known or estimated probability, but not 0% probability.

If I am a pilot alone in the aircraft, it is my decision what to risk and what not. If I fail, I die, so far no problem for me.
If I am a transporter carrying passengers from A to B, I am bound to a risk avers behavior by my responsibility, society and the operator to not threaten the other souls.

Some pilots don't do the difference, treat themselves as third party and go the second way, even if alone in the aircraft - fine with me, but is it the best way?

Making a risk decision for others who may be unknowing was quite common and some of that was part of leadership in the old times? I may follow arguing in the special case with PAX on board of an aircraft, but I fight against denying it altogether as is so common nowadays.

[Pace]

Fly4business

I have crossed the channel at wider points more times than i can remember in SEPs I still relax when seeing the distant coast or cloud lines even though still way out on gliding distance and in my mind the engine always takes on a different tone ))

My Hobby Scuba diving and photography and I did a shark feed off the Bahamas which was manic so probably far more risky :E

But maybe knowing the Sea and its force and danger as well as knowing how warm and safe you can feel admiring the tiny white caps below as well as having experienced a few mechanical failures in piston twins and singles my posts are a warning to make every safeguard you can.

I also ask that we consider passengers who are unknowing in those risk decisions as we don't have a right to take risk on their behalf

Pace

[Airbornestu]

Well it hasn't been suggested I'm a coward for quite a while:eek: I've done some stuff that is quite extraordinarily dangerous before now.

Nowadays though I have a young family to think about, so it's not just about me even if I'm in the cockpit alone. My kids would quite like their daddy to come home. So although I'm still prepared to do things outside a lot of people's risk appetite, I like to do it knowing and understanding the risk, being able to mitigate it where possible and having a decent plan for when it all goes 'tilt'.

Interesting thread this - I actually have no dramas with a trip to the Scillies - I've sailed it in a small boat enough times, but for some reason the IoM bothers me. My experience of sailing in the Irish Sea has not always been pleasant.

[B744IRE]

After ditching a Long EZ near Shoreham I researched ditching stats and to my surprise found that over 90% of ditchings are survivable...I have flown SEP between Shoreham & Alderney about 30 times a year for the last 6 years. Two Alderney based aircraft have ditched and the occupants were all over 60 and they survived the initial impact but sadly one died after going back into the aircraft to get something. Some ex Fleet Air Arm pilots of similar age survived a ditching near the Scilly Isles several years ago. Claude Graham-White ditched in the Channel during WW1 and spent several hours in the water as did many airman in WW2. Wear a life jacket and carry a life-raft and plenty of gear...PROTECTION, LOCATION, WATER, FOOD.:ok:

[Mike Flynn]

I must have flown fifty or so sectors from Guernsey to Berry Head 20 years ago in a single PA28. In a word stupid.Life is not worth the risk.

[Pace]

Funnily enough it was always my dream to take a month off rent an aircraft and fly the Caribbean islands.

I go every year to Florida to renew my recurrent on the C500 series jets.
My other passion away from flying is scuba diving and photography.

One year I jumped a scheduled and flew to the Bahamas for a few days before getting BA direct from there to the UK
I did a crazy dive called a Shark feed where they placed a large box 25 meters down on the sea bed and 2 divers dressed in chain mail suits pulled dead fish out of the box.
The idea was that we all formed a ring around the box maybe 7 meters away and unprotected kneeled on the sea bed and watched the Sharks zoom in focusing on the fish being pulled from the box.

It was manic seeing these creatures come in from every angle whipped up into a frenzy and some pretty nasty types of Shark.

At one point maybe 50. They were bumping into the back of your head, shoulders and I broke my watch strap pushing one off that got to friendly
I wouldn't do it again for two reasons. One these were wild creatures whipped to a frenzy and you were totally reliant on them fixating on the box food source and two while I have dived with sharks in the open many times where I never felt threatened this was an artificial situation and the Sharks were in a feeding frenzy so you really did not know what they would do.

That and cost put me off single engine over those waters and my plans to fly the Caribbean islands in a SEP

We were thoroughly briefed and one part was if we couldn't take it not to swim to the surface but to back off on the bottom out of the area and then swim up to 10 meters from the surface and back to the boat ladder.But Never Never on the surface

Many in the USA do fly SEP to the Bahamas and other islands but I reckon you would be Shark meat if you spent any time in the water.
You cannot win, North Atlantic you freeze to death warm seas you have other threats
Many think the Great White Shark is the biggest Killer but its not the Oceanic white tips are mainly because in the wars they killed more people off blown up sinking ships than any other variety of Shark

Has anyone flown from Florida SEP and what precautions did you take ?
Myself it would have to be a twin ))

Pace

[Romeo Tango]

In a word stupid.Life is not worth the risk.

IMHO one's life IS worth the risk if the reward/risk is high enough.

That "enough" is a personal choice and seems often to increase with age

[Romeo Tango]

There seem to be many stories of people surviving for long periods in a dingy with sharks swimming about them. Just make sure you have a dingy.

[150 Driver]

There seem to be many stories of people surviving for long periods in a dingy with sharks swimming about them. Just make sure you have one of those.

How does having a shark improve your chances of survival ?:O

[Pace]

How does having a shark improve your chances of survival ?

If it likes you it might protect you from the others but I wouldn't count on it ) Much better Dolphins which believe it or not can actually kill a Shark and have been known to drive Sharks off from humans
A bit like being hit by a car doing 30mph rather than teeth

Pace

[Jonzarno]

A well trained pet shark could be the next Must Have safety device.

http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s480/john_fischer3/image_zps7a4rjg6e.png

I'll suggest it to Dale Klapmeier at Cirrus........ ;):O:8

[Pace]

That looks like my Girlfriend :E Not sure she is a safety device though

Pace

[Romeo Tango]

Bah! :O


Some more text to make post long emough

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

IMHO one's life IS worth the risk if the reward/risk is high enough.

That "enough" is a personal choice and seems often to increase with age

Not entirely sure what is being said here, but my experience (and not just of SEP over water) is that one is more likely to do stupid and inadvisably risky things when one is young and 'immortal' than when one gets older and, hopefully, a bit wiser.

[Romeo Tango]

one is more likely to do stupid and inadvisably risky things when one is young and 'immortal' than when one gets older and, hopefully, a bit wiser.

Yes though one also seems to get a bit more careful in general with age. The idea of struggling into a dingy in a cold sea is a bit more daunting if one is older/stiffer/heavier.

IMHO a lot less would get done if the young didn't go out on the edge from time to time.

[Pace]

Yes though one also seems to get a bit more careful in general with age. The idea of struggling into a dingy in a cold sea is a bit more daunting if one is older/stiffer/heavier.

I am no expert on ditching and have never done it but as a scuba diver enthusiast am aware of the energy and power of the " cruel" sea at close quarters as well as how cold the water can be on instant unexpected immersion. I do think some pilots are not aware and see the whitecaps as a pretty texture to a sea 3000 feet below

RT you bring up a very good point. A dingy is very hard to get into once in the water and especially for overweight or unfit pilots or passengers.

Take the immersion shock factor and exertion which could bring on a heart attack in some and that itself becomes a serious problem.

One saving grace is that on a reasonably flat sea an aircraft will not usually sink straight off.
Some especially composites with sealed inner pockets of air in the wings may stay afloat for some time.
It is important to use that time to inflate the dinghy and enter passengers and yourself from wing level rather than all diving into the sea disorganised, panicking and with a good chance of separating from the others

As the Captain your duty does not finish on landing in the sea hopefully intact and it is up to you to organise the passengers to enter the dingy from the wing before entering yourself! Just my take :E
If anyone more knowledgeable disagrees feel free to correct me

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

"I, as the captain, will be last to leave. If I pass you on the way out, you are to assume the role of captain".

(What Goes Up Must Come Down, David Gunson).

[Pace]

SSD

But the life raft only hold 2 and there are three POB what happens then?

If The third POB is an attractive leggy blonde your swimming :ok: As I reassume Captaincy to take care of the passenger and make sure she is relaxed with the up and down movements in the Ocean

Now might be the time to discuss dingy survival and body heat sharing ? :E:E:E

But if the passenger is a hairy guy who winks at you and me I'm swimming

Pace

[fireflybob]

RT you bring up a very good point. A dingy is very hard to get into once in the water and especially for overweight or unfit pilots or passengers.


Pace, i agree.

The fittest/strongest person should get in dinghy first so he/she can then assist others to board.

One bit of advice is to swim and "dive" onto/into the dingy which requires less effort than trying to haul oneself in.

[Romeo Tango]

Personally I do not expect to be marshaling my passengers along the wing into the dingy without getting their feet wet. My experience of the sea is that it is rarely smooth on the scale of a light aircraft once you away from the coast. I expect a ditching to be violent and wet.

Though I do expect to survive, see:
EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Ditching Myths Torpedoed! (http://www.equipped.org/ditchingmyths.htm)

[ahwalk01]

Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=APF-MYAM-MYLS-TMB-EYW-APF)