Question about logging time in a UK Logbook.. whilst flying in U.S.A..

[Scoobster]

Not sure where this should get posted.. Hope someone with more experience can help..

I am currently out in Florida with Florida Flyers and had my first flight today which was a 'check out' - basically the school checking my general handling and making me familiar with the circuit/pattern - before I am allowed to rent.

I had an instructor sit by me - to check me out - and I was sole manipulator of the controls with the odd input from the instructor. It was technically a dual flight as obviously he has to sit next to me to check I am safe.

How should this get logged?

I have put it as P.1.. not P/Ut (as it wasn't instruction) and put the time in the 'Dual' column or I can put it as PICUS.. and log it as 'Single Engine' In Command.. or should it go as P.1 - 'In Command'.

Logbook Picture (http://picpaste.com/jRRoz5Yd.jpg)

American logbooks and logging time is slightly different so am a tad bit confused and don't want to log it wrong to make sure it is counted towards the CPL etc... I use the UK Pooleys logbook version.

Would appreciate some input from someone who has done this before.

Back in the UK - I log brakes off to brakes on -whereas the rental place works on 'Hobbs' - Should I log the time as from 'Engine Start' to 'Engine Shutdown' in UTC? It is currently blank.

Thanks in advance.

Scoobster

[Heston]

Log the time the same way as in the UK.

So brakes off to brakes on.

You were either P1 or PU/T, nothing else. It can't be dual in an aeroplane that only requires one pilot.

One of you is P1. The other is either a passenger (or is PU/T if the other is an instructor and it was an instructional flight).

Its usually a good idea in these circumstances to agree before the flight who is P1. "If we have a real emergency I expect you to handle it since you are P1," says the instructor.

[Scoobster]

Sorry forgot to add..

Second question is.. Should the time flown get converted to UTC/GMT? or entered as local time - not sure if it makes a difference?

Back home in the UK it was all time as 'Zulu'.

Thanks.

Scoobster

[Genghis the Engineer]

Doesn't matter where you are in the world, always log GMT / Zulu.

It's the only way, given how often aircraft cross timezones.

G

[Scoobster]

Doesn't matter where you are in the world, always log GMT / Zulu.

It's the only way, given how often aircraft cross timezones.

G

Ok.. So this is going to be a stupid question..

If the flight time was - Brakes off/ 10:30 local Florida time that would be - 15:30 Zulu/GMT/UTC time??

Just trying to get used to being 5 hours behind the GMT!

Thanks.

S.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yep.

It's the dates that always confuse me - I confess, probably incorrectly, I use local date or I'll go mad.

There's a useful website at www.timeanddate.com which can save having to do too much thinking.

G

[Scoobster]

Yep.

It's the dates that always confuse me - I confess, probably incorrectly, I use local date or I'll go mad.

There's a useful website at timeanddate.com (http://www.timeanddate.com) which can save having to do too much thinking.

G

According to what I know.. Zulu time/GMT is basically - 5 hours ahead of Florida time.. so 10:30 Florida Local Time would be 15:30 GMT/Zulu time - as it is 5 hours 'ahead' of local..

So 16:30 Local right now is 21:30 Zulu.. that's correct...

[foxmoth]

That is correct


counted towards the CPL if you are going for a CPL you REALLY need to get your head round this!

[Scoobster]

Foxmouth,

I am pretty astute on the Zulu timings. The post above just made me think that what is written is incorrect by G.

Not really the best forum to be putting daft questions about UTC times but clarity never hurts :*

Scoobs

[Helicopterdriverguy]

Flying dual in America, I logged my time as PU/T, and it is instruction, even for a checkout.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Flying around the World with an airline, I always logged GMT time and date. (otherwise could get confusing, as the USA get the day and month wrong way round -unless you spell out the month of course.

Not sure that the date is really relevant, other than to identify a specific flight when you are charged with low flying, or busting some rule, hours is hours, not usually important where they are gained.

Nb GMT not UTC. In the Middle Ages British and French scientists and the like, were at loggerheads as to where to place the zero meridian, the Brits. wanted it through Greenwich of course ( the Royal Academy ) and the French through Paris.

The Brits won, but the French refused to accept the time, and maintained Parisian Mean Time, about 6 seconds earlier than GMT - until the Space Age, when all Countries had to conform to the same time to track the satellites etc. and so the present cocktail of time measurement came about, but it was called Universal Temp Co-ordinaire ( or words to that effect ).

The barstewards won after all, but not for me, it will always be GMT.
(Racist ? Moi ? )

[patowalker]

GMT is a time zone and UTC is a time standard.

UTC is not an abbreviation of Temps Universel Coordonné, it is just simbolic of Coordinated Universal Time and is language neutral.

[MrAverage]

... and thanks to them we also have:


QFE 998 euro-psychobabble-joe pascuales..

[eckhard]

As far as I'm aware, there is no need to record the actual times of departure and arrival. The total flight time (i.e. chocks off to chocks on) and the date of departure (GMT/UTC) is all that is required.

Having said that, I have always recorded the times of dep and arr probably because my first logbook had columns for them!

I too was surprised when I was hour building in Arizona in 1975 and some of my flights arrived after midnight z.

Arizona is GMT-8, so a flight in the late afternoon (1500-1630L) would be recorded as 2300-0030z.

[Genghis the Engineer]

ExS - I don't think that the 1800s were, officially, the middle ages.

"Universal" was a modification of GMT to whip the astronomers into line. Astronomers originally invented GMT, but defined zero as midday - which didn't tally with what the rest of the human race thought, so UTC is GMT with the day starting at middnight.

I *think* that astronomers still use GMT in the same way they always did, but the rest of the world are rebelliously determined to start our days at midnight. So, technically we may be using "GMT" incorrectly - but don't care!

G

[foxmoth]

Going back to the OP, as he is talking CPL he should really be looking at using an Electronic log book - so much easier when filling in job applications! Certainly the one I use lets you put the time in either way (GMT or local), then displays it in both - problem solved!

[Scoobster]

Just to throw something else in the mix..

Back home in Blighty.. for stuff like Cross Chanel Checks, Variation or Deviation training - this according to the UK Instructors was logged as PICUS.

So why would the same not apply to a 'check out' of proficiency being logged as PICUS?

Just had to throw that in there!

Scoobs

[Reverserbucket]

Scoobster,

As you say you are building hours towards a (presumably EASA) CPL, you should follow the guidance offered by AMC1 to Part FCL - FCL.050 Recording of flight time: https://easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/AMC%20and%20GM%20to%20Part-FCL.pdf

I've yet to see an FAA 'Airman' log departure and arrival times hence the discussion concerning Local or Zulu/UTC doesn't come into it over there; you should, as recommended, record in Zulu/UTC and so for Florida, its L+5 (which I think you know by now;)). As suggested, log as you would at home as Hobbs can present problems (I'm aware of EASA students in the U.S. who have suffered a shortfall in syllabus hours because they logged as their instructors told them (Hobbs) and were therefore approximately 10 mins short for every sortie).

Another peculiarity of the FAA is the allowance of more than one P1 in the event one occupant at the controls is a CFI and the other a certified pilot (assuming both FAA). I take it you must have an FAA Private, in which case that's OK, but not under EASA, so for the 'checkout' it ought to be P/UT. PICUS would be acceptable if your instructor is EASA approved.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just to throw something else in the mix..

Back home in Blighty.. for stuff like Cross Chanel Checks, Variation or Deviation training - this according to the UK Instructors was logged as PICUS.

So why would the same not apply to a 'check out' of proficiency being logged as PICUS?

Just had to throw that in there!

Scoobs

PICUS does not exist in light aircraft operations (or at least not in that context) - you were misinformed. Either they needed to be there for instructional purposes - in which case it was dual, or they were a passenger, in which case you were PiC.

G

[Reverserbucket]

Genghis - it does,

PICUS would be acceptable if your instructor is EASA approved and acting as Student Pilot in Command engaged in training toward an Integrated CPL/IR.
Which of course, we know the OP is not.

[Genghis the Engineer]

(or at least not in that context)

So we're in agreement, I think?

G

[Reverserbucket]

Well, we're splitting hairs as it's not relevant in this example, but PICUS is logged during primary training in GA types on an integrated course - it's the only way they can accumulate the P1 hours required for licence issue and is historically, anything but 'under supervision' but that's another story :(

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well it's a consistent theme of pilots under training logging PiC when not genuinely flying as PiC.

G

[Level Attitude]

I had an instructor sit by me - to check me out - and I was sole manipulator of the controls with the odd input from the instructor. It was technically a dual flight as obviously he has to sit next to me to check I am safe.

How should this get logged?


"I was sole manipulator of the controls"
vs
"with the odd input from the instructor"


Definition of sole ?


"It was technically a dual flight as obviously he has to sit next to me"


Not sure why you are asking how you should Log this flight.
You were PUT - as you, yourself, recognise.

[Mark 1]

I always record local date/time at PoD and annotate the remarks column accordingly.
That saves ambiguity over date of flight and errors from correcting.

The FARs have no requirement for actual times to be recorded, so if you are flying under the privilege of a US airman's certificate, you can do as you like.

FCL.050 asks that you record date of flight and place & time of departure and arrival. So if you use the local date with UTC time you are creating ambiguity.

If you define the time zone that you are using then there is no ambiguity e.g. dates/times are EDT/MST/....

[ExSp33db1rd]

GMT is a time zone and UTC is a time standard.

UTC is not an abbreviation of Temps Universel Coordonné, it is just simbolic of Coordinated Universal Time and is language neutral.

So maybe it should be Coordinated Universal Neutral Time ??

[Whopity]

Second question is.. Should the time flown get converted to UTC/GMT? or entered as local time - not sure if it makes a difference?UK logbooks are maintained in accordance with the ANO Art 79 There is no requirement to log any time except

3 (a) the time spent during the course of a flight i.e Elapsed time and (d) information about any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying i.e. Day/Night.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Agreed , although custom and practice is that the vast majority of us log departure and arrival times - which is done in zulu.

G

[Whopity]

In over 10,000 hours I have never logged an arrival or departure time but the log books I use have no columns for them.

[Genghis the Engineer]

You rebel, Whopity.

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Agreed , although custom and practice is that the vast majority of us log departure and arrival times
I was taught (some considerable time ago) only to bother to write down the times if the departure and arrival airfields were different. Pretty sure I usually use local time, but can't remember what I did for my one channel crossing (the only time I've been across a time zone).