View Full Version : Positive climb - flaps up
dontdoit
3rd Mar 2016, 20:35
Anyone know any more about this?: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/investigators-probe-premature-a319-flap-retraction-422686/
Station_Calling
3rd Mar 2016, 20:55
BEA has not identified the operator, airframe or the specific flight involved.
Not hard to guess though.
Not making any judgements, but I wouldn't mind seeing the hours on both seats on this flight.
atakacs
3rd Mar 2016, 21:33
Being completely ignorant of the marvels of modern automation I am nonetheless somewhat surprised that the aircraft would allow this?!
PoloJamie
3rd Mar 2016, 21:40
Incident: Easyjet A319 at Bristol on Feb 16th 2016, flaps instead gear retracted (http://avherald.com/h?article=494cad37&opt=0)
Station_Calling
3rd Mar 2016, 22:19
Being completely ignorant of the marvels of modern automation I am nonetheless somewhat surprised that the aircraft would allow this?!
On my Boeing, it does whatever we tell it. I don't know much about Airbus, but I would imagine the flap lever is one of the few where the crew have direct control over it.
I can see the mistake happening - it's a crossover between "gear up" and "flaps up" and two motor-actions albeit different levers - but as I said, I'd like to see the experience levels.
Right Engine
4th Mar 2016, 05:22
FATIGUE. FATIGUE. FATIGUE. FATIGUE.
Sidestick_n_Rudder
4th Mar 2016, 05:57
Done it myself as a new F/O on ATR turboprop. Empty A/C, positioning flt.
The Capt. decided to demonstrate to me (and the observer on the j/s) the impressive climb performance of the ATR-42-500. He briefed that since we were very light, we could retract flaps below acceleration alt. Sounded like a good idea at the time... :}
During taxi I kept telling myself "don't retract flaps below min speed, don't retract flaps below min speed, don't retract...)
We took off, Capt. Commanded "Gear up!". I looked at the ASI, saw speed above the bug, guess which lever I moved... :E
Junkflyer
4th Mar 2016, 07:05
Honestly have a hard time seeing how this happened. Positive rate-gear up. Pretty straight forward.Big difference between the feel and movement of the levers. Not an Airbus guy, so may be missing something.
Old Fella
4th Mar 2016, 08:22
It doesn't matter how few hours either pilot has on type. Gear lever is a Gear Lever, Flap Lever is a flap Lever. What is clear is that the appropriate lever was not identified before being moved. Pretty basic stuff.
Max Angle
4th Mar 2016, 08:44
but I would imagine the flap lever is one of the few where the crew have direct control over it.
High AOA protection will prevent the slats retracting completely above a certain value but the flaps will retract with lever position.
People are screaming fatigue?? but there is no roster data. If you point fingers at something you should provide supporting evidence, not a stab in the dark.
There is also the call to question the hours of the crew; again no data. was it a training flight?
It is curious considering the bodily actions. A flap lever is beside your hand and needs little body movement; the gear lever is a positive stretch forward.
In a previous carrier, B733, there had been a few cadet errors with mis-hearing commands. F1 takeoffs, at acceleration altitude the call by PF was "bug UP." Flaps
UP selected in error. The call was changed to try and avert this error.
Interesting, considering the control freak nature of much of the FBW a/c, that there is no lock on there flap lever below a certain RA height e.g. 100-200'. Perhaps it was considered and perhaps it was decided that trained pilots could not be so dumb. That theory has been disproved many times.
However, I am not an advocate of dumbing down our profession into more auto-dependancy.
I'd be interested to hear how the a/c reacted and how PF reacted. Was this an F1 takeoff; therefore only 1 section to flaps up, or was this a selection from 2nd flap gate to next gate; or was it even from 2nd flap gate all the way up. Ouch.
F1 - UP on B737 and you lose the LED's would make life challenging at low level, especially if max reduced thrust and being in THR HLD. It would take quick action to firewall the levers and stop the nose up pitch and avoid ground contact.
One comment on AV website mentioned: "if it was an F/O action then further sim training, if was a captain's command then demotion." If it was captain's command then PM (F/O) should not have executed it. That's what PM is for. Mind you, in the TR with cadets, it took many head bashings to make the PM's aware that doing something because "I was only obeying orders" was no defence in a screw up.
Next recurrent sim anyone??? It would certainly take fine attitude control not to push to below level flight. Ground effect can be your friend.
Perhaps using the arbitrarily callout "positive climb" gets Airbus observers/"pilots" confused.
AerocatS2A
4th Mar 2016, 09:39
Have had an FO do this to me. I had flown with him many times and he never made a remotely similar error before or after. I can only put it down to a "brain fart".
RTO: do explain. To me "positive climb" is a lot less arbitrary than "positive rate". "Positive rate" of what??
Metro man
4th Mar 2016, 11:02
In this situation the protections will kick in and whilst the flaps will retract, the leading edge slats won't. A few accidents have been prevented by this. Similar incident with a BAE 146 departing Cairns in Australia had the controller activating the crash alarm as the sink was so pronounced.
FlightDetent
4th Mar 2016, 11:10
http://s14.postimg.org/40vcksyst/Beze_jm_na.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/40vcksyst/)
Thanks FD't. They did design an a/c for dummies. Ha.;)
FlightDetent
4th Mar 2016, 12:34
Yes, she suits me well. Is the 737 any different in this respect?
The design of the flap lever track is somewhat smart: Before selecting any position, the pilot must pull the lever out of the detent. Balks at positions 1 and 3
prevent the pilot from calling(*) for excessive flap/slat travel with a single action.
(FCOM DSC 27-30-20: A).
(*) ->> "commanding i.e. selecting"
After landing yours truly retracts the flaps to clean from Full and 3 at once as per training. With such repetitive action, it is natural to develop muscle memory that overcomes those "balks".
Now if most of your take-offs are F1, and then after a long long time since LTUS /IOE you do an F3 takeoff, your hand will find the flap lever in a familiar location an the muscle memory could play its game all too well.
tubby linton
4th Mar 2016, 13:03
If you move the handle and then end up in a high alpha , then alpha lock is lost!
Slat Alpha Lock / Speed Baulk The Air Data / Inertial Reference Units ( ADIRU's ) supply corrected angle-of-attack ( alpha ) and computed air speed ( CAS ) data to the SFCC. The SFCC use the data to prevent slat retraction at high alpha and / or low CAS. Slat retraction is not possible if: On A319 & A320 - the alpha is more than 8.5 deg. - the CAS is less than 148 knots. The function resets if alpha decreases below 7.6 deg. or CAS increases over 154 knots. On A321: - the alpha is more than 8.0 deg. - the CAS is less than 165 knots. The function resets if alpha decreases below 7.1 deg. or CAS increases over 171 knots.
Alpha lock/speed baulk is not possible if: On A319 & A320 - the slat retraction is set before alpha is more than 8.5 deg. or CAS less than 148 knots - the aircraft is on the ground with CAS below 60 knots.
On A321 : - the slat retraction is set before alpha is more than 8.0 deg. or CAS less than 165 knots - the aircraft is on the ground with CAS below 60 knots.
When the function is active, the ECAM shows the message A-Lock ( cyan, pulsing ) below the slat position ind
rogerg
4th Mar 2016, 13:48
Have had an FO do this to me. I had flown with him many times and he never made a remotely similar error before or after. I can only put it down to a "brain fart".
After a long day I did it to my FO. Luckely on the 1-11 the flaps took so long to completely retract that I had time to reset before any probs.
Airbubba
4th Mar 2016, 15:36
Perhaps using the arbitrarily callout "positive climb" gets Airbus observers/"pilots" confused.
RTO: do explain. To me "positive climb" is a lot less arbitrary than "positive rate". "Positive rate" of what??
In addition, I think we used 'Positive rates' years ago at one airline. Maybe it was before the IVSI off the IRS and we were supposed to check for both positive vertical speed and altimeter increasing.
An exhaustive PPRuNe discussion of the subject in an earlier thread:
http://www.pprune.org/questions/492548-positive-rate-positive-climb.html
One of my favorite comments from this earlier thread:
It changes every 10 years anyway..don't worry!
RTO: do explain. To me "positive climb" is a lot less arbitrary than "positive rate". "Positive rate" of what??
What do you think? Pancakes?
Read ze books and be wise. This year Boeing refers to "positive rate of climb" which most operators shortens to "positive rate". Positive climb is a statement of inferiority complex - we have to be different than the bloody yanks. Because we know better over here. Just like the "sharklets"
After landing yours truly retracts the flaps to clean from Full and 3 at once as per training.
Surely, flap retraction is not done until clear of the runway. It prevents the gear being selected by mistake. I once had the "pleasure" of ferrying a slightly bent aeroplane following just that. The aircraft had bounced on landing, the FO selected the gear instead of the flap, and....
suninmyeyes
4th Mar 2016, 16:53
This is a human factors issue and is rare but it does occasionally happen and can happen with an experienced or inexperienced pilot. Back in the 80's as a two striper on a 747 classic I called "positive climb" and the Captain with 28 years in the company called "flap up". I replied "gear up" paused, he confirmed and I raised the gear. Later the Captain could not believe he had said flap but fortunately the Flight Engineer told him in no uncertain terms he had.
Loganair back in the 80's had a policy of hitting flap up on touchdown on the Fokker F27 to dump lift and get the weight on the wheels. Unfortunately on one touchdown the copilot selected the gear up and sod's law it was a crosswind and the squat switch was on the downwind main gear and the gear raised dinging both props.
Occasionally you get a pilot calling for gear up and the other pilot's hand goes towards the flap lever momentarily before self correcting. Seen it all but it is very rare that someone goes ahead and actually selects flap up instead of gear up. The beauty of having two pilots is one notices the error and normally stops it before it happens. But if an error can be made it will be made due fatigue, complacency, distraction.
Suninmyeyes: Small world. That was the accident I referred to in the post above yours. Location, Manchester. Reg G-OMAN iirc. I ferried it to Norwich for repair.
Twiglet1
4th Mar 2016, 17:38
FATIGUE. FATIGUE. FATIGUE. FATIGUE.
Right engine BALPA NIgel Nigel BA let's see what RAT 5 says. You have to assume as GIB is Cat C the LHS has plenty of experience.
Don't see the difference. You call positive climb when you have a positive VS. Do you think this incident would have been avoided if they used "positive rate" instead of "positive climb"? Positive climb is a statement of a positive VS, nothing more nothing less. You still haven't explained how positive rate is any less arbitrary. Just some nonsensical ramblings about Boeings.
Greenlights
4th Mar 2016, 19:59
positive rate vs positive climb
seriously guys, this is exactly what I hate in this profession done more and more by stupids who only learn procedures instead flying.
Yeah, even in cockpits many still discuss about where is the "comma" and what page exactly. Now the best pilot is the one who knows by heart all sops word by word, better than a monkey, not the only one who can still think by himself and fly a plane properly.
Thank you Mr autopilot.
CHfour
4th Mar 2016, 20:09
Don't see the difference. You call positive climb when you have a positive VS.
Not just positive V/S but also an increasing altimeter reading.
suninmyeyes
4th Mar 2016, 21:47
Herod Wrote That was the accident I referred to in the post above yours. Location, Manchester. Reg G-OMAN iirc. I ferried it to Norwich for repair.
Hi Herod, I did wonder if that was the one! I thought it was G-IOMA. I'm glad the Norwich based operator gave the unfortunate co-pilot a job on the basis she was unlikely to make the same mistake twice. I suspect an unhappy atmosphere in the flight deck with an anxious co-pilot trying to please the Captain led to a rushed and incorrect movement. There may have been a similar thing in the Papa India Staines accident with the premature droop retraction.
blind pew
5th Mar 2016, 01:17
Suninmyeyes
Papa India was a complicated training/management accident with a probable misunderstood command outside of sop but P2s flat mate had selected land flap at noise abatement cut back instead of up the week before.
Probably because we shouldn't have been flying on line due to inadequate training and incompetent procedures - there was a work to rule and a war zone atmosphere.
The culprit went on to fly Concorde which IMHO proves that it wasn't a lack of ability - just a sh@t system.
JammedStab
5th Mar 2016, 02:28
This is a human factors issue and is rare but it does occasionally happen and can happen with an experienced or inexperienced pilot. Back in the 80's as a two striper on a 747 classic I called "positive climb" and the Captain with 28 years in the company called "flap up". I replied "gear up" paused, he confirmed and I raised the gear. Later the Captain could not believe he had said flap but fortunately the Flight Engineer told him in no uncertain terms he had.
Loganair back in the 80's had a policy of hitting flap up on touchdown on the Fokker F27 to dump lift and get the weight on the wheels. Unfortunately on one touchdown the copilot selected the gear up and sod's law it was a crosswind and the squat switch was on the downwind main gear and the gear raised dinging both props.
Occasionally you get a pilot calling for gear up and the other pilot's hand goes towards the flap lever momentarily before self correcting. Seen it all but it is very rare that someone goes ahead and actually selects flap up instead of gear up. The beauty of having two pilots is one notices the error and normally stops it before it happens. But if an error can be made it will be made due fatigue, complacency, distraction.
It can happen. Just look first and never move quickly. Many years ago on a new type I remember pulling on the wrong handle instead of the flap handle. But fortunately, it wasn't possible to move in the direction I was pulling on it. I also had a captain select the gear down above Vlo when I asked for flaps once.
FullWings
5th Mar 2016, 08:09
This is a human factors issue and is rare but it does occasionally happen and can happen with an experienced or inexperienced pilot.
I agree. No matter how competent, knowledgeable or well prepared people are, very occasionally they can perform something that is normally routine differently and are unable to explain why afterwards.
It may be something intrinsic to the human condition and the way our cognitive apparatus works. It might be easier to accept that we are all susceptible to the odd “brain fart” and to develop our procedures with this in mind. I guess that is part of the logic behind read backs of instructions, as it helps to trap an incipient error, much as in the “gear up” “flaps up...” “no, gear up!” example above.
It also shows that doing things in a hurry without time for intellectual examination of your proposed actions can lead to problems. Are we in such a desperate need to get the gear up that we don’t have time to think/check about which control we’re going to use to do it...?
Noeyedear
5th Mar 2016, 11:54
It's been done before.
Have a google of "BASI VH-NJL December 1997" or https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/1569996/aair199704041_001.pdf .
It'll be done again.
Suninmyeyes. Yep, and a very competent FO she was too. However, I think she may have been the only person to be involved in two mishaps on the same page of Flight's list of accidents/incidents that year. She was my FO on the second one, and I couldn't have asked for a more helpful colleague.
wanabee777
5th Mar 2016, 15:52
Not just positive V/S but also an increasing altimeter reading.
_____:ok:_____
Metro man
5th Mar 2016, 22:46
Anyone flown the Beechcraft Baron ? Some have the gear handle on the left and the flap handle on the right and some have it the other way around. A few people have managed to retract the gear while exiting the runway.
Aluminium shuffler
6th Mar 2016, 07:21
On my Boeing, it does whatever we tell it. I don't know much about Airbus, but I would imagine the flap lever is one of the few where the crew have direct control over it.
I can see the mistake happening - it's a crossover between "gear up" and "flaps up" and two motor-actions albeit different levers - but as I said, I'd like to see the experience levels.
Exactly. It was done to me once by an experienced and very competent FO. Just a case of wrong motor programme. Thankfully, both of us identified the mistake as it happened and he move the lever straight back before the flaps could respond. It didn't even show up on the data monitoring.
SLFandProud
6th Mar 2016, 08:55
Unrelated (but it's been bugging me for a couple of weeks anyway, so what the hell.)
I was mildly perturbed that my Austrian Airlines flight a couple of weeks ago took off without any flaps; but subsequently gather that on that particular aircraft (Fokker 100) it's normal procedure. At the time I simply reasoned that we were relatively lightly loaded.
Are any of the bigger birds - such as the A320 I assume we're talking about here - authorised for flapless takeoff, out of interest? (Good to know such that the next time I'm mildly perturbed I can either raise the level to "highly" or reduce to "not at all" ;-).)
HeartyMeatballs
6th Mar 2016, 09:40
The A300 is. In the A32S config 1 + f is needed for takeoff as a minimum.
There's been a lot of talk of semantics here. For Airbus the command is Flaps Zero for flaps up. And Gear Up to raise the gear. Flaps Up is not a standard call.
No; not to my knowledge. I, too, felt slightly nervous one day on a DC-9 family. I was sitting opposite the leading edge of the wing and there were no LED's deployed. On my previous flights with the carrier there had been. It was too late to ask and I had to have faith in "the crew knew what they were doing' and the takeoff config system. Later I found out there were different models in 'the family' and the carrier had a mixed fleet; some with LED's others not.
All my airlines have used "Positive climb." Nevertheless, if the standard call is "Positive rate.", then that's what you say.
When I was in the RAF it was "Undercarriage up." When I left it became "Gear up." but never say "Cheer up." to the FO because, perhaps . . . ;)
Gordomac
6th Mar 2016, 10:59
All about training standards eh ? on the T1e, flap handle & LE handle were exactly the same type but very close to eachother. FE turned to me, new on type & said that if I ever looked like I was going for the wrong handle, he would break my "F-----N" arm off! Charming. Lovely bods the ole FE's !
RAT 5
As a pax, and if possible, I always look to see if these devices are deployed prior to taxi.
If I can't see I listen depending on type.
HeartyMeatballs
6th Mar 2016, 11:33
@gcal : that's good that you look out. An extra pair of eyes in the cabin are always useful. If we look to Dryden, concerns were raised in the cabin as to the state of the wings however these never made it to the FD and disaster struck. So if in doubt shout. I'd rather feel a little foolish and still be alive rather than keeping my concerns to myself and ending up dead or injured.
However, Airbus recommend the A32S are taxied flaps up in icing conditions now so don't be alarmed (as long as it's cold/snowy/rainy/foggy) to the runway. Although this was always the SOP when there was slush/snow/ice it is now recommended to do it without contaminants on the ground so just be wary. All crews should have the correct configuration before passing the holding point.
Centaurus
6th Mar 2016, 11:46
Forgetting to lower the gear for landing is another well worn trap. In another era I was training a new co-pilot on the HS 748. The HS 748 had a nifty ASI which, if the gear was not down by I think around 110 knots with landing flap selected, a flag would flash on the dial of the ASI.
We were downwind with zero thrust set on one engine in preparation for a single engine landing. The U/C horn had been silenced because it had sounded with one throttle was nearly closed (zero thrust) and first stage flap selected. It was a long time ago, but I think that was the reason. I was fully aware of the risk involved of inadvertent landing with gear up in such circumstances and kept a close watch on the co-pilot.
He was distracted by another aircraft on long final and elected to extend downwind for separation and wisely elected to delay gear extension since we were on one engine. . The scene was being set.
Now on final at four miles and cleared to land, he forgot to extend the landing gear. These things happen. With landing flap down and horn silenced we were faster than normal (no gear). As the instructor I had to either say nothing or tell him to ask for gear down while there was time - or go-around. I was counting on the flashing ASI flag as a last ditch reminder of the gear being unsafe and hoped he would take the required corrective action after he saw the flag.
But to my amazement he was concentrating so much that he never saw the flashing flag. Or, if he did, it meant nothing to him because he was new to type. He pressed on trying to get the speed back towards VREF.
At 500 feet I told him to go-around on two engines as I zeroed the rudder trim. He did as he was told and called for gear up. I told him to raise the gear himself instead of me doing it. He reached over to the gear handle and saw it was already up. That shook him to the core. It was a lesson well learned for both him and me.
I had seen with my own eyes how even with the most reliable of multiple gear warning systems, (horn and gear lights and ASI flag) can be missed when the pilot is concentrating on something else. In this case approach speed and profile.
slfandproud. To ease your concerns, zero flap is normal on the F100. I've not flown the F70, but I'll ask people who do know.
My sources were lightning fast. Yes flap zero for both the F100 and the F70
ManaAdaSystem
6th Mar 2016, 19:56
I once had the Effoh retract the flaps when I asked for "flaps up speed".
The 737 being what it is, all it took was lowering the nose a bit and that excellent wing just kept on flying.
Worst order ever, since changed.
Ozlander1
6th Mar 2016, 21:45
Anyone flown the Beechcraft Baron ? Some have the gear handle on the left and the flap handle on the right and some have it the other way around. A few people have managed to retract the gear while exiting the runway.
Seems like they were moved to be the same as the King Airs or something.
Long time ago and I wasn't directly involved.
Airbubba
6th Mar 2016, 22:50
We were downwind with zero thrust set on one engine in preparation for a single engine landing. The U/C horn had been silenced because it had sounded with one throttle was nearly closed (zero thrust) and first stage flap selected.
That is a classic set up for disaster as you point out.
Now, this is no s**t. Or, should I say, once upon a time... ;)
Three decades ago a U.S. airline was doing a captain's rating ride in a steam driven 737 in Berlin. The instructor was the head 737 check airman and the FAA was on the jumpseat observing. Due to the restricted Cold War airspace the required airwork was done in a tight pattern near TXL. A reject, a V1 cut and some bounces back at Tegel went well and the crew set up for the traditional no-flap full stop landing to complete the ride.
The gear warning horn circuit breaker was pulled and the trap was sprung.
They forgot to lower the gear as the check airman pointed out how difficult it was to decelerate on path in the low drag flapless configuration even with idle thrust.
The PF in the left seat realized in the flare that the already nose high picture was settling too low and pushed the power up just as things started to scrape. Hydraulic components were torn off the bottoms of the JT-8D engine nacelles and they did a manual reversion missed approach. And manual gear extension followed by landing with pneumatic braking.
The FAA guy was a furloughee from the airline so the incident was handled locally with discretion in the pre-social media era to protect the careers of all concerned.
Years later I worked with the PF's training partner, Dale C., who was riding back in the cabin during the gear up touch and go. He was of the opinion that there was little deceleration during the runway contact and if they had not gone flying again they would have ended up in a fireball in the congested area east of the runway.
silvertate
7th Mar 2016, 16:25
Anyone know any more about this?: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/investigators-probe-premature-a319-flap-retraction-422686/
Sometimes caused by ill-conceived cockpit procedures. I remember one operator very similar to this, who had an acceleration call of: "flaps up speed".
I think everyone except management can see the problem with that one. Well, after several aircraft struggled away with no flaps and no speed, the call was eventually changed.
stator vane
7th Mar 2016, 16:56
All those levers, buttons and lights! So easy to get them mixed up.
i suppose it's not politically correct to say it was a simple pilot F..K UP?
There used to be a Viscount operator in UK which had a great variety of 800 models. So, one night a F/O was having his command upgrade at Belfast. The time came for a flapless landing and Murphy's law dictated that this particular aircraft was not fitted with the usual gear warning system.
So it was that the poor chap's check ride culminated in an expensive graunch when the props hit the runway and he slid to an eventual halt with the fire section in close pursuit.
What did make me smile was the report of the aftermath from our Servisair agent.
It seems that the poor chap went into the Servisair office (no mobile phones then) and called his wife.
"Whatever you do, don't spend any more money".
RobertS975
7th Mar 2016, 19:46
OK, only a single engine Lake amphib pilot here, but is there really any significant need to retract gear so early after takeoff in modern jet airliners?
Obviously there was an advantage to cleaning up the airframe in the case of light twins, and one can understand the need in the prop twins of yesteryear (DC3, CV240-440, M202/404, F27 etc). The only reason was to improve SE performance while low and slow.
But this old habit has persisted into the modern jet era, and my basic question is whether it is still operationally important.
golfyankeesierra
7th Mar 2016, 20:25
Have flown Airbus for a few years. When the PF asked for a flapchange, the mandatory answer for the PNF was "speed checked, flaps…"
After flying mostly Boeings it initially sounds weird, a bit patronising perhaps, but once it has become a habit, you know it gives you just a microsecond extra before your hand goes to the flaplever, and it avoids things like these. It would have felt "wrong" to retract flaps without saying "speed checked".
(Not to start an A vs B fight, am happily flying Boeings again, but it really makes sense..)
golfyankeesierra
7th Mar 2016, 20:33
Oh, oh, I see the incident aircraft WAS an Airbus :ouch:
Any idea Easy uses the phrase "speed checked"?
AerocatS2A
8th Mar 2016, 08:59
OK, only a single engine Lake amphib pilot here, but is there really any significant need to retract gear so early after takeoff in modern jet airliners?
Yes. The take-off performance is predicated on getting the gear up as soon as you're airborne. It is still important, no matter what type of multi-engine you're flying, to get cleaned up as efficiently as you can.
poldek77
8th Mar 2016, 09:46
another one, 5 years ago:
"The co-pilot inadvertently retracted the slats and flaps after takeoff instead of raising the landing gear. The aircraft continued to climb but the stall warning system operated twice before the aircraft accelerated to the normal climb speed. A slat technical issue after engine start had required the co-pilot to operate the slats/flap lever several times to clear the fault. These actions, coupled with a mental rehearsal of the procedure that the pilots would need to action should the fault recur on takeoff, had mentally predisposed the co-pilot to operate the slats and flaps lever after takeoff despite his intention to operate the landing gear lever."
together with a short but nice report:
https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/5422eb52e5274a1317000067/Airbus_A300B4-605R_G-MAJS_01-12.pdf
Aluminium shuffler
8th Mar 2016, 15:47
Yes. The take-off performance is predicated on getting the gear up as soon as you're airborne. It is still important, no matter what type of multi-engine you're flying, to get cleaned up as efficiently as you can.
With a V1 engine failure, certainly, but I doubt it in normal ops. It might have an influence on noise monitoring, and would have a marginal fuel penalty and delay rapid climb based short cuts of the SID, but I don't think it'd be a problem to delay the gear until 400' in normal operations.
Geriaviator
8th Mar 2016, 17:07
Seems like they were moved to be the same as the King Airs or something.
Long time ago and I wasn't directly involved.
Can't speak for the Baron but I seem to recall that the first Bonanza V-tails produced in late 1940s had identical and adjacent levers for gear and flaps. The FAA noticed the remarkable number of gear-up landings and ordered a redesign with flap shape for one function and a round wheel for the other.
Even that doesn't save a dozy/tired/distracted pilot. After a three-hour trip in constant turbulence I arrived at Lydd with two very distressed children in the back. After two goarounds due to slower circuit traffic I asked ATC for priority. Being distracted by more howls and vomiting I failed to lower the gear until an alert controller warned me halfway down finals.
Still grateful for that warning, 30+ years later. Thanks again ...
pineridge
8th Mar 2016, 18:01
In one of Ernest K.Gann`s books, during the take-off roll in a DC2(this was a really long time ago) the captain told his
seemingly depressed co-pilot to "cheer up" with unintended consequences.
draglift
8th Mar 2016, 19:15
The instruction "Takeoff power" also had disastrous consequences once when the co-pilot took it off. A 4 engine prop plane in the 50s.
Similar and happened on a line flight. And this relates a little to modern cadets not knowing pitch/power. On finals I noticed the speed was 'going to decay' because the power was too low after ending flap was achieved. I (later realised was a mistake) called power, because that was the error. Instinctively, without looking, the f/o reduced power. Ouch. I learnt something. Do not trust they know what you mean. However, the next time, I called "more power", and we leapt into the sky and just avoided a GA. You can't win.
Capn Bloggs
8th Mar 2016, 21:51
In a previous life we called "Selected, 3 Reds". No reds? Put it back then move the correct lever (you idiot)! :ok: :)
AerocatS2A
8th Mar 2016, 21:53
With a V1 engine failure, certainly, but I doubt it in normal ops. It might have an influence on noise monitoring, and would have a marginal fuel penalty and delay rapid climb based short cuts of the SID, but I don't think it'd be a problem to delay the gear until 400' in normal operations.
Well you don't know when the engine is going to fail do you? It's not like it's a v1 cut or nothing, it could go at any time. So you get the thing cleaned up so you have as much performance as you can in case anything bad happens.
Aluminium shuffler
9th Mar 2016, 11:02
I don't disagree, Aero. There is no reason you couldn't stick with gear up as soon as airborne with a before Vr failure. If it fails after Vr, then you already have a small advantage over a V1 failure, and could have the gear retraction as an immediate memory item. But for normal ops, there is plenty of performance to leave the gear down.
The trouble is that it then starts opening multiple scenarios, their identification and procedures, so it's simpler to stick to immediate retraction at all times.. That's the problem with writing SOPs - balancing probabilities and risks.
Metro man
9th Mar 2016, 12:21
With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction.
Many moons ago and a 707 struggling to climb out of Lusaka; damned thing just wouldn't accelerate.
Three on the flight deck of course and a 4th pair of eyes on a jumpseat - no one seemed to be able to find the reason.
That is until the 4th pair of eyes noticed the gear was still down.
Loganair back in the 80's had a policy of hitting flap up on touchdown on the Fokker F27 to dump lift and get the weight on the wheels.
Actually, that was Fokker's own procedure, not something devised by Loganair - we employed it in Air UK
Hello 019. Didn't we change it after the Manchester accident? The grey cells aren't as agile as they used to be, and it's twenty-seven years since I last flew Mr Fokker's masterpiece. Edit. Grey cells fired up. I think we did retain the procedure; at least until I left the fleet.
Airbubba
9th Mar 2016, 19:45
With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction.
And I think this is the procedure on most other large aircraft as well. Another reason cited below is that you might move the flaps the wrong way out of habit if you tried to extend them to get a balloon effect and lower the stall speed.
For almost thirty years windshear procedures in U.S. training have derived from the wisdom in Advisory Circular 00-54. Every training manual I've encountered since the AC was published in 1988 seems to have verbiage from this publication (e.g. the deviations of 15 knots, 500 feet per minute VS or 5 degrees of pitch definitions of windshear). I'm sure there is a corresponding ICAO document somewhere.
The philosophy of maintaining configuration until out of the shear is explained on page 47 of the FAA document:
CONFIGURATION
Maintain flap and gear position until
terrain clearance is assured.
Although a small performance increase is
available after landing gear retraction,
initial performance degradation
may occur when landing gear doors open
for retraction.
While extending flaps
during a recovery after liftoff may
result in a performance benefit, it is
not a recommended technique because:
1) Accidentally retracting flaps
(the usual direction of movement)
has a large adverse impact
on performance.
2) If landing gear retraction had
been initiated prior to recognition
of the encounter, extending
flaps beyond a takeoff
flap setting might result in a
continuous warning horn which
distracts the crew.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC00-54.pdf
neilki
9th Mar 2016, 22:29
Us: Tower: WoundedBird1 Outer Marker
Tower: WoundedBird1 Cleared to land. CFR in position
Us: Please call "Check Gear" at 2 miles
Tower: wilco
...never hurts to ask :-)
Herod from Nineteen - check your PMs sir!
Ozlander1
10th Mar 2016, 06:52
Long time ago, a Beech model 18 pilot said "That danged horn was making so much noise I couldn't hear myself think". :ugh:
IcePack
10th Mar 2016, 15:36
OZL
Yep I think manufactures have over done warnings. If you ever get into large hail and associated turbulence, the noise does make it very hard to think. Takes marked discipline to overcome this human trait. As for Gear up Flaps Up again, muscle memory can over rule the thinking memory as muscle memory is actioned without/ before conscious thought.
Whilst I once put my hands on the flap leaver & lifted it up, instead of the speed brakes in the edge of a thunderstorm I did not actually move the lever as my thinking process caught up just in time.
So as a human I have great sympathy for this pilot who's thought process under stress (Hadn't flown for a while) reacted ahead of their thinking process.
I should say that it takes exposure to stressors to be able to mitigate this type of error, which only comes with experience.
These things happen, what more can I say, apart from even the automatics sometimes "do their own thing":confused:
GlenQuagmire
10th Mar 2016, 18:15
On the flight global page that the original link points to it says
Under European certification specifications the aircraft’s configuration – other than the position of its landing-gear – must not be changed until it has reached at least 400ft.
What's that all about then? I've never seen any certification specifications that give any such restriction except OEI. Am I missing something?
de facto
11th Mar 2016, 03:19
With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction.
I'd be more worried about the aircraft touching down again with the gear selected up:E
AerocatS2A
11th Mar 2016, 08:00
@GlenQuagmire
Really? You're not familiar with a minimum acceleration altitude for normal ops? Or did you just think that was a company SOP?
GlenQuagmire
11th Mar 2016, 11:11
well aware of the certification requirements OEI and some types (B737 for example) have it in the flight manual but other types don't (not seen it on a bombardier aircraft for instance) and I have never seen it as a certification requirement. I'm asking where the certification requirements are that mandate a minimum flap retraction altitude all engines operating - never seen it, never heard of it. Flap retraction is predicated on speed not height with a minimum height (not altitude) in the event of an engine failure.