Can you help me read this Aerodrome guide please?

[gerardflyagain]

I'm starting flying lessons in a few weeks so am practicing on FSX flight sim at Denham Aerodrome, where I'll be learning. Can you help me interpret some of the information on the Denham guide here please?

Flying into Denham - EGLD (http://www.egld.com/flying_into_denham.php#pooleys)

Specifically, the map with its rules. I've googled some of the terms but it would be useful if someone could point out the really key things that I need to know to practice e.g. 'don't fly right after takeoff from 24 or you will be shot down' :p

[Heston]

I'm starting flying lessons in a few weeks so am practicing on FSX flight sim

Um, not sure how to say this nicely - so I'll just have to say it. That's a really bad idea.

The early part of the PPL syllabus is all about aircraft handling. A flight sim (and in particular that one) just doesn't come close enough to the way a real aircraft behaves and feels for it to be of any use to you. In fact it will make things harder for you.

I hate it when a keen student turns up saying they've done lots on a flight sim - I just know that they will have bad habits already established that will take time (and their money) to correct.

If you want to get ahead then I'd suggest you start to read up on some of the theory. And ask the flight school what they suggest you can do to prepare.

Best of luck and enjoy your flying!

[Whopity]

Learning to fly an aeroplane and flying a simulator (game) are two totally different things, it is unlikely that the simulator will contribute anything useful to your flying lessons and may actually be detrimental. Your instructor will tell you what you need to know, when you need to know it. Maybe a book on the basic flying exercises would be more useful to you at this stage.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Absolutely - self teaching on a PC based sim, without the re-inforcement of proper instruction beforehand, is going to introduce and solidify incorrect habits. The odds are that you will end up spending more on your flying lessons as a result, not less.

Yes, read up on the theory - it's sometimes dull, but very necessary as there will be exams to pass through the course. Getting hold of the CAA chart for the area (the one you want is called 1:500,000 South) and trying to understand that won't do you any harm either. It doesn't matter too much if the chart is out of date at the moment: although the current one is edition 42 and came out last month so should be good for the next year.

If you want to scratch the itch by doing things more specific to your lessons - read through the manual for the aircraft you'll be learning on. If it's Denham, it'll either be a Cessna C152 or a Piper PA28-161 I imagine - there are copies of the official manuals for both all over the web (if you're learning on the Cessna 172, ditto).

But really, really - stay away from PC based simulators. They may have value later - especially for navigation, but not early on when you still need to learn handling and basic airmanship skills.

G


N.B. I don't go there often at present, but did my instructor's course at Denham. Lovely spot and a well run school - you'll enjoy it. Don't forget to also learn about how good the cooking is next door in The Crewroom - I have a particular soft spot for their freshly made pizzas.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

But really, really - stay away from PC based simulators. They may have value later -
I found RANT quite useful for the SA and procedural aspects of instrument flying (but not, of course, for the somewhat more basic task of keeping the aircraft the right way up).

[Genghis the Engineer]

Oh, for instrument flying they're great - but that's post PPL.

G

[gerardflyagain]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've spent a lot of time reading about whether or not FSX can help before getting a PPL. There are conflicting views online. There are a lot of people who said they did use FSX beforehand and that, overall, it definitely helped them.

I am going to try it because I reckon I will fall in the camp of people who it helped. I will not be telling my instructor that I have 'learned to fly' on a sim so he can just hand me the keys. I am well aware that I still need to learn to actually fly. I just believe that FSX will help me, based on some of the experiences I've read. Of course, I could be proven wrong, I'll have to see.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I know very few instructors who think it's a good idea - but it's your time and money.

G

[PA28181]

I just believe that FSX will help me It wont as an ab-initio one bit with the handling skills. Post training it will be useful for some instrument/nav practice.


You asked, you've been told, so carry on, just remember all mistakes in the air cannot be undone with a "reset" button.

[150 Driver]

When I was training for PPL I used to use Flight Sim to 'keep current' when weather cancelled lessons

Anyway, coming up to first solo decided I'd show the family what a great pilot I was, put it on the big TV screen, 'flying' the school C152 from the real life scenary option of the 'actual aerodrome.'

Crashing on final for the fifth consecutive time my then seven year old says, in a very worried voice, "Daddy, you do know that you can't just press restart tomorrow don't you ?':ugh:

Some years later she's the nervous one about coming flying with me. Maybe I've caused long term trauma !

[Fly4Business]

Neither playing with a flight sim, nor acquiring others opinions will make you anything near an airmen.

Manual hand flying the thing, listening to your butt, reading and understanding ancient analog tablets called "books", using your most valuable last frontier against current beyond Orwell degradation, your brain in connection to your biological sensors, that will make you a pilot.

There is one application for a flight sim, train instruments flights and learn the push buttonry of awkward avionics without killing yourself in flight, but that is training for let flying, not flying. Once you have a pilot license and collected several hundred manual flight hours, you could search for the On switch of the autopilot, just to find out there is none fitted and in the evening at the hotel flight sim will be better than TV watching.

Fleeing reality with a sim may cause delusional mind ;), go have a real life.

Disclaimer: Frequently traing with a flight sim will condition your brain to let the computer take over your life. While this will lull you into a nice and cozy comfortable half-awake state, it does degrade your awareness and may kills you quickly in case of an electronic malfunction. Automation dependency will bring you into dangerous situations, but try to stay clear as long as you possibly can!

[Katamarino]

I played a great deal of flight sim when I was young. Once I started the PPL I found that it had been very useful as I was already very familiar with the cockpit, what everything did, and a lot of other basics. I got my PPL in minimum hours so it doesn't seem that it did any harm.

[alex90]

Whenever I have seen anyone at the club - you know who has been using a flight simulator and know who haven't. They often get the same reflexion from the instructor which is "stop looking at the dials, and start looking out of the window". That is repeated constantly with the flight simulator students - which I think is reason enough to at least be "cautious".

With regards to "reading the plate" that is actually a really good thing to learn, you should definitely buy a series of PPL books, and start learning some of the theory. I believe that this part is explained in the "navigation & planning".

Good luck with your learning!

[mothminor]

How can you learn "Power - Attitude - Trim" from a computer:confused:

[Pace]

I haver mixed feelings on this as I was involved with a third party MSFS company developing FS models and trying to get more realistic flight dynamics.
If you go to RealAir simulations you will get the best flight dynamic models around as the bog standard MSFS models were very much puppet on a string and useless.

Where they will help is that some of the photorealistic scenery is very good and you can practice flying the pattern and familiarising yourself with landmarks which some of the scenery and airport add ons will give you.

For IFR flying they are good so you can practice NDB tracking with crosswinds or arrival procedures before you do it in the real thing and they will help you a lot.
Flight dynamics were always the let down but do look at RealAir simulations for the best in a poor bunch

Pace

[bingofuel]

There is a very simple solution to a student who stares at the instruments, cover them all up with a chart or cloth, then they can either stare at the cloth or start learning to fly by looking at the very large, real attitude indicator situated ouside the aeroplane!

[Reverserbucket]

Computer based simulators are useful for procedural work but not for learning to fly by visual reference.

I would, in addition to the suggestions above regarding the study of the applicable Pilots Operating Handbook and school checklist, learn as much as you can about the two VRP's 'St. Giles' and 'Maple Cross'; the images in your link are useful but Google Earth them both and become familiar with what the actual reference points are - they may become very welcome sights returning to the aerodrome on a day with fading light or worsening weather. Also know how to reach both from the disused Bovingdon airfield (also pictured). I would get a copy of CAP413 the Radio Telephony manual, and start absorbing that as well.

Good Luck and don't start an exciting and challenging PPL course by exposing yourself to practices that lead to bad habits.

[londonblue]

Funny, I can fly a plane, but have never managed a simulator flight without crashing. They bare almost no resemblance to the real thing. The only way to make them seem more realistic is to spend a lot of money on a yoke and pedals, and about 3-4 extra screens. These will cost you about 4-5 lesson's worth.

I guess they would help with learning where everything is in a plane, but that's about it as far as I can see, and that doesn't take all that long to get used to anyway.

I think the worst thing about them is that I found I was getting zero feedback through my nice comfortable ergonomic seat with wheels in my study. It also didn't matter what the AI said, I was always sitting straight!

[Sleepybhudda]

In answer to your original question I would read down the Aerodrome Plate top to bottom and think about each entry.


Its 249ft (moderately high for a UK aerodrome) its a thought if you fly QNH
Its only 7.5nm from Heathrow - That should, and seems already has grabbed your attention.


Its an A/G Radio facility - What does that give you? Are you used to it? Do you know the R/T from Cap 413 that goes along with that.


Runway dimensions- what do you fly? are the lengths good enough for that aircraft, see the CAA safety leaflet to expand on this. Only the tarmac has APAPI are you practiced in judging descent path without out them on the grass.


PPR number - always call and ask them what is special about Denham.


There are a lot of instructions for this place, I would spend some time with a 1:500 000 VFR chart and slowly walk through how your going to join this aerodrome. Think about each bit of info for a second or two as above and see what picture you build up.


I currently fly red twin otters in a far away place and would not treat any busy GA aerodrome lightly if I was unfamiliar with it.


As for the sim debate which I doubt you expected would attract so much attention from. I grew up with flight simulators until I got my first commercial job, then only touched it 3 times in 8 years. Yes I did have bad habits, stared at instruments to much and over controlled in pitch and roll due to the sensitivity of flight simulator yokes. But it helped me tie in all the text book material to a flying environment which I had immediate access to and could explore what the text books were describing.


Enjoy the flying and the journey to your licence.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

... the main instruments?
Them's all easy - it's the backwards reading magnetic compass that I have trouble getting my head around. Maybe it's easier for sailors? - though last time I helped drive a yacht we mostly just dialled the required course into the autopilot and/or told it to follow the magenta line, so the compass was just for monitoring and sanity checking.

[gerardflyagain]

Thanks all for your responses. To give a bit of background, I had a few flying lessons last year and had to stop due to financial reasons. I have saved the required money and am about to start again.

I realised that there were things in my lessons that it would be useful to know before I get up there, so I can concentrate on learning the things you can only learn in a real lesson. These things that I wanted to learn more about before included concepts such as attitude, pitch, trim, cockpit layout. I have read about them but I have found it more enjoyable and visceral to do it through a flight sim. For example, I have a force feedback joystick, which has really helped me to understand trim in a way a book can't. I also have a trackIR headset so when I want to fly by a VRP, I can sit up and look out of my left window to see it if I like. I test flaps etc. with various internal and external views to understand how it works in an interactive and more fun way for me.

I played a great deal of flight sim when I was young. Once I started the PPL I found that it had been very useful as I was already very familiar with the cockpit, what everything did, and a lot of other basics. I got my PPL in minimum hours so it doesn't seem that it did any harm.
Thanks, you are one of many people who I have read with a similar experience.

Where they will help is that some of the photorealistic scenery is very good and you can practice flying the pattern and familiarising yourself with landmarks which some of the scenery and airport add ons will give you.
Thanks. This is why I started the thread but it got side tracked :)

I would, in addition to the suggestions above regarding the study of the applicable Pilots Operating Handbook and school checklist, learn as much as you can about the two VRP's 'St. Giles' and 'Maple Cross'; the images in your link are useful but Google Earth them both and become familiar with what the actual reference points are - they may become very welcome sights returning to the aerodrome on a day with fading light or worsening weather. Also know how to reach both from the disused Bovingdon airfield (also pictured). I would get a copy of CAP413 the Radio Telephony manual, and start absorbing that as well.
Great tips, thank you.


However, for someone that's not been near a cockpit before, can I suggest that MSFS is good to get to grips with the layout and reading of the main instruments? For those of us who have grown up wanting to fly, we understand how to interpret the HSI, ASI, VSI, AI, etc since we were kids. But for someone coming in to it for the first time, it's easy to forget that it might not be second nature to some people. So to gerardflyagain, may I suggest that you research the following with the help of flight simulator:

Airspeed Indicator - Looks easy enough, it tells you your speed in knots. But what about the colours on the clockface i.e. the white shaded area, green, yellow and red?

Attitude Indicator - What does this show you? Try banking the aircraft, and pushing the nose up/down, to see how it changes. Also, the bars facing inwards, along the top, what do they mean? Hint: it's to do with your degrees of bank angle. In the PPL, you will be expected to stick to certain degrees of bank angle on some exercises.

Altitude Indicator - Works like a clock. Ensure you can quickly determine your altitude with a glance at the hands on the clock.

Horizontal Situation Indicator - Basically it's just a compass. Do you know how many degrees is North, East, South, West? Do you understand how this corresponds with your runway direction i.e. runways 06 and 24 on the chart?
Thanks for your carefully considered reply. This is how I am using the flight sim :)

In answer to your original question
...
But it helped me tie in all the text book material to a flying environment which I had immediate access to and could explore what the text books were describing.
Thank you for answering the original question! I intend to use the sim the way you described.

[Whopity]

The best person to teach to fly, is the one who has not yet learned to drive and who has never heard of a flight simulator!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thank you for answering the original question! I intend to use the sim the way you described.

I thought that you said you were going to use the sim to try and fly circuits, arrivals and departures at Denham - which you've not been taught how to do yet, and won't be in the standard PPL manuals.

G

[gerardflyagain]

Yes I will use it for that as well. He said 'it helped me tie in all the text book material to a flying environment which I had immediate access to and could explore what the text books were describing.'.

I will also be using the sim to tie in text book material (e.g. principles of flight), by testing and playing with it in the sim.

[Heston]

Oh dear, oh dear. Two thoughts:
1. Im glad you're not my student. You've had good advice on here which you are intent on ignoring. You will need a different attitude in your flying lessons, and
2. I hope this is a wind up, but I fear it isn't.

In your OP you say you are soon to start your lessons. Later you say you've already had some - would you care to tell us about them? How many did you have? Which exercise numbers are entered in your log book? How did you get on with those lessons? What surprised you about what you learnt in them?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well done on your CRM Heston, the rest of us were just thinking that but holding back - probably unhelpfully.

Although the second CRM problem is now keeping onside the person who needed to be told bluntly what they were ignoring when being told politely.

G

[Heston]

Very good Genghis :D But the C in CRM stands for "cockpit". This isn't a cockpit, its an internet forum with anonymous posters - different rules apply.

I don't like it when folk I know to be very experienced (like you) give good advice (for free) which is then ignored.

Also I'm mindful that people who are genuinely considering learning to fly may be reading but not posting, and I think its important that they are not misled.

Generally in life I find that being more blunt than one would naturally be is the most effective way of helping people who want to learn.

[bingofuel]

The phrase , "You can lead a horse to water, but cannot make it drink" comes to mind. Some people are reluctant to listen to good advice if it does not agree with what they believe. In time , with experience, they may realise that the older and hopefully wiser do actually know what they are talking about, but it will have cost them time and money before they have realised it.

[thing]

I don't like it when folk I know to be very experienced (like you) give good advice (for free) which is then ignored.


The problem being of course that anyone new or fairly new here doesn't know that Gheng is who he is, he could be a twelve year old with a copy of 'Flying Big Jets' giving advice. Which is why although fora such as this do give good advice, anyone who acted on it without checking 'real life' references such as an instructor would be, IMHO, barking.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Good CRM (crew, of course not cockpit these days) is always circumstance dependent. And who knows there may be 12 year olds worth listening to!

It's also a concept that many new to flying (and a few old hands) will struggle with.

But generally I think that Heston's was good there. Start polite and subtle, give maximum potential for face saving, then when all else fails, be blunt. Sometimes you just need to say something like "sir, you are about to fly into that mountain ".

G

[gerardflyagain]

Thanks again for the replies. I'd like to reiterate that I've seen evidence for both sides of the discussion and I've chosen the flight sim side. I may be wrong.

Heston, I don't have my log book to hand but I had one lesson at Stapleford and two at Denham. I was trying them out (based on advice on here) and found Denham suited me better. We covered basic principles in the Denham lessons, according to their lesson plan. It was a while ago now but some of the things I found were:


I was poor at orientating myself to the ground
I needed to be aware of flying rules specific to my location (e.g. ceilings due to nearby airports).
I often moved the trim the wrong direction relative to the yoke!
152s are 'cosy' for someone of my height :)

[Heston]

OK, fair enough. Get stuck into your lessons (as soon as the weather allows!).

One more bit of advice - ask your instructor what you should be doing between lessons to prepare for the next one, and do what they say; you'll get much better value from each lesson that way.

Most of the understanding is grown between lessons. In the air you are putting it into practice and developing muscle memory and co-ordination.

Enjoy learning to fly :)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Enjoy learning to fly :)

+1

Don't worry too much about us greybearded picky sods - enjoy learning, that's what really matters.

G

[gerardflyagain]

Thanks Heston and Genghis, will do! :ok:

[pulse1]

I do feel I ought to speak up a bit for good old Microsoft Flight Sim. Several have spoken up for it's usefulness for practicing VFR or IFR navigation and, with enhanced scenery it is certainly that. I have enjoyed playing with all variants of FS since it came out but I did learn to fly a real aeroplane long before computers were thought of for every day use of the masses.

Certainly, the older forms of FS did encourage students to stare at the instruments because there was nothing else useful to look at until the runway appeared in front of you, if you were lucky. But with modern, enhanced scenery, it is actually easier to fly by looking out the window just as it is in a real aeroplane.

When it comes to aircraft handling, and especially the approach and landing, I can only speak for the very few aircraft in my library that I have actually flown, that is Tiger Moth, PA28, Cessna172 and Baron I know, not an SEP). I have a few other SEPs that I have not flown but I imagine that they would really behave like they do on my FS, e.g. Caravan & Maule.(I know they are not SEPs really)

So I don't understand those who seem to think it establishes their credentials as a "real pilot" by claiming that they always crash when trying to land something on FS. I find that, if a I obey the same rules I apply in landing my own aircraft, my landings on FS are equally good. If I break those rules on FS, I get a similar result to my real bad ones e.g a series of escalating bounces or worse. Even cross wind landings can be quite accurately simulated and it is easy to try out the difference between the two techniques.(and I do not use a yoke and pedals, just a joystick with rudder controls)

A few years ago I seemed to lose my confidence in landing and thought it might be my age telling me it was time to call it a day. I set up my FS with a suitable aircraft on final approach, saved it, and then carried out lots of landings until I worked out what was going on. Without realising it, I had changed my point of focus as I approached the flare. Confidence restored.

The only really weak area in most FS light aircraft is in very slow flight. The stall characteristics are usually far too benign. When it comes to flying faster aircraft, I suspect that FS makes it much easier to land than the real thing.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that most simulators can be flown in a "gamelike" manner - that is which suits the simulator, but bears little resemblence to real flying. Or you can fly them like a real aeroplane, which they will usually respond quite well to as well.

The problem is, if you first learn on a sim - you are as likely as not to learn the "gamelike" approaches to things. That's different to learning on an aeroplane, and then taking those behaviours to the sim to refine, once you know what "doing it right" is supposed to look like in the first place.

G

[Reverserbucket]

Simulator training really should be structured and guided - this applies to Level D devices and could equally be applicable to commercially available desk/laptop software described here, and especially if you are learning; have a look at my earlier comments about developing bad habits. I won't say that 'solo' simulator practice is of no value, but any value must surely be degraded when self-assessing? I haven't taught in light aircraft for years but I dare say I'd be disappointed to discover that a student with such little experience was potentially eroding the value of structured training delivery by using a flight sim - after all, that's what solo sorties are for in the syllabus.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned :(

[Capt Kremmen]

Here's the best reply to your situation: Read, read and read. In particular, "The Theory and Practice of Powered Flight" by the late, great Bill Gunston.

Once you've learned the content of this book you'll be able to fly an aeroplane without having gone near one.

Ok, a slight exaggeration but, a pardonable one !

[Gertrude the Wombat]

But with modern, enhanced scenery, it is actually easier to fly by looking out the window just as it is in a real aeroplane.Only if you have several screens, eg you're looking out of the side window to judge when to turn in the circuit.

[gerardflyagain]

pulse1, thanks for that insight.

Yes, flight sims have come on a lot and I have tried to take advantage of that. I have bought photo realistic Denham scenery. I've also bought a force feedback joystick which has been useful to give me a feel for the concept of trim. I know I will have to relearn it in the plane though. I've also bought a trackir.

Would you recommend buying dedicated c152 models (from carenado or someone similar)? I've heard such bad things about the flight models I've figured I should just use FSX to learn very basic basics and nothing more.

Only if you have several screens, eg you're looking out of the side window to judge when to turn in the circuit.
I have a TrackIR and this allows me to look everywhere (including behind me) naturally. It is absolutely brilliant.

Thanks Capt Kremmen for the recommendation. I have quite a lot of reading to do already with my PPL exam books and Denham guides/ops manuals.

Reverserbucket and Genghis, I understand your concerns about flight sims and agree they will have some negative effect on me. I am trying to get the positives of learning (e.g. procedures, Denham familiarity) to outweigh the negatives (such as what you have mentioned). As long as it does then the net effect will be beneficial. I will report back in a few months when I've found out, or you will find out in the obituaries :p

[pulse1]

gerardflyagain,

I would recommend that you get a dedicated C152 model although I cannot recommend one. I would also strongly recommend that you take on board reverserbucket and genghis's comments that your initial training should be instructor led. Perhaps FS would be useful to practice some of the exercises you are being taught but staying strictly within the scope of each lesson and not trying to preempt your instructor at all.

I do not have a Track IR and Gertrude is quite right that, for circuit work, you do need to look sideways easily. I always use "real cockpit mode" so I can look sideways reasonably easily. I get over it by identifying landmarks for my turning points and I think this is a good habit to develop anyway, especially when there are noise sensitive areas within the circuit. It also keeps you looking out of the window.

My son has a 3D version of FSX which uses Google Earth scenery and it is awesome but wearing the special goggles tends to make me feel giddy.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The school at Denham are far too good to let obituaries become involved - but it will be interesting to hear your hours to first solo.

G

[Reverserbucket]

EGLD has a suffered a couple of fatalities in my time although not from this school, however they have had a couple of accidents, one of which involved a student on his first solo:

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/54230488ed915d1371000cb5/Piper_PA-28-161__G-BUFY_01-95.pdf

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think I'd be inclined not to hold a survivable accident 22 years ago against them. tPC at Denham in my experience of half a dozen years dropping in and one course there, are exceptionally safe in the way they run with adequately well looked after aeroplanes.

G

[Low Level Pilot]

"it's the backwards reading magnetic compass that I have trouble getting my head around. Maybe it's easier for sailors?"

I am an ex ships master. We don't use Backwards reading magnetic compasses, we use (as a back up) one that reads "the right way round". I passed my PPL a couple of years ago. I can assure you reading a C152 magnetic compass was not intuitive!

[gerardflyagain]

... I always use "real cockpit mode" so I can look sideways reasonably easily. I get over it by identifying landmarks for my turning points and I think this is a good habit to develop anyway, especially when there are noise sensitive areas within the circuit. It also keeps you looking out of the window.

My son has a 3D version of FSX which uses Google Earth scenery and it is awesome but wearing the special goggles tends to make me feel giddy.

What is 'real cockpit mode'?

I generally look left and identify where I think 90degrees is. I then try to fly it visually, and then check on the instruments how far off I was. This is I hope, at least, training me to look outside primarily.

Do you mean your son has an oculus rift? Can you elaborate? I've used a rift and am convinced it will make a massive positive impact on flight simming. Unfortunately I can't get it for now as I'd need a new PC.

EGLD has a suffered a couple of fatalities in my time although not from this school, however they have had a couple of accidents, one of which involved a student on his first solo:

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/54230488ed915d1371000cb5/Piper_PA-28-161__G-BUFY_01-95.pdf

I've read that guide and can't figure out the reason for the failure. It looks like the engine lost power but I can't see why. Can someone explain please?

[Genghis the Engineer]

The explanation such as it is, is that the AAIB couldn't work out the cause of the power loss either

G

[Reverserbucket]

Genghis

I think I'd be inclined not to hold a survivable accident 22 years ago against them. tPC at Denham in my experience of half a dozen years dropping in and one course there, are exceptionally safe in the way they run with adequately well looked after aeroplanes.


Quite, that wasn't my intent - I was providing an example of the risk associated with solo flying based on gerard's flippant comment about obituaries and the risk of complacency. I agree, very safe, properly and professionally run school. You would find it difficult to find better value for money in my view.

...the AAIB couldn't work out the cause of the power loss either

That's true although the description of the conditions earlier in the day provide insight into what may have been a contributing factor, however the interview with the PIC was only revealing in terms of how little could be recalled hence no conclusion could be drawn. The second solo was almost as eventful as the first but that's another story.

Sad to say, as many here are genuinely trying to offer some possibly misguided wisdom, but I think it is becoming clear that this thread is degenerating into flightsiming rather than one concerned with practical flying. In fairness, the OP did only ask how to read the aerodrome plate rather than seeking insightful guidance into how to proceed meaningfully with his PPL course :(

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yessss, I read two possible handling factors there. One was that conditions were certainly conducive to carb icing, the other was that the pilot adjusted the mixture to try and sort the engine out. What adjustment was there to make given it should be fully rich throughout the circuit of any UK airfield given our very low density altitudes?. A third is the fact that the carb had been off the aircraft very recently - and we all know that if stuff is going to go wrong, it's most likely to go wrong just after maintenance.

But ultimately - godnoze !

G

[gerardflyagain]

I wasn't meaning to make light of what I know is a very serious activity. I was just trying to lighten the tone in the thread, given that, frankly, it's felt borderline hostile towards me at times, even though I'm sure it was well intentioned.

So back to the original question, am I right to think that my solo flight would follow the blue arrows and be at a maximum height of 1000ft throughout?

http://www.egld.com/images/Denham_EGLD_ATZ.png

[thing]

If it followed the blue arrows wouldn't you have a mid air with yourself?













Sowwy Jesus, couldn't resist.

[foxmoth]

height of 1000ft
The chart says "Max Alt" If you are going to learn to fly then you might want to learn the difference between Height and Altitude!

[Local Variation]

Give the guy a break.

[foxmoth]

Give the guy a break.

Sorry, but they are important fundamental definitions in Aviation!:=
Also of course, understanding that difference will help him do exactly what he asked for in the first place, understand the plate properly!

[Jhieminga]

Rest assured that during the initial stages of your lessons you will become very familiar with that blue circuit as drawn on that airfield chart. Most first solo flights consist of a single take-off, circuit and landing, using the procedures as set out in the manuals and techniques as taught to you by your instructor.

The maximum altitude relates to the fact that the airspace above is used by the London CTR and because of this you will not be allowed above 1000' relative to sea level. As Denham is at 249' your circuit altitude is probably something like 700' above aerodrome level, or 949' with the altimeter set to the local QNH. With such a restriction in place and only 50' of leeway, you'll most likely find that learning to stick to one altitude will become a recurring theme during circuit training. ;)

Enjoy your lessons!

[rnzoli]

am I right to think that my solo flight would follow the blue arrows

The dark blue line shows the "traffic pattern" or circuit.
In your first solo flight, you would most likely fly that traffic pattern.
But before that, you would fly this so many (maybe 100-150) times with your instructor, that you will know it by heart.

Your first instructional flight (non-solo) will probably be in the Local Flying Area, where the instructor will show your the boundaries, landmarks, restricted zones etc.

[gerardflyagain]

Great, thanks Jhieminga, rnzoli and Local Variation!

[MrAverage]

Gerard


By now you may have realized that lots of people on here seem to know what they're talking about. Some of them do, some of them think they do, some of them are guessing and some just plain get it wrong. Most of them are pilots, some are instructors (with varying levels of qualifications and experience), some are examiners and a few have never flown. Some have been at it long enough to know that they still don't know everything, possibly not even enough to respond to some posts. It's possible that the wisest don't even come on here. There, I just put myself in my place.


What I'm trying to say is, throughout your flying life, be careful who you believe.

[FZRA]

Can I just chip in, that during my first circuit days, the instructor always used a few local landmarks that will not be easy to spot on Flight Sim (even if you've bought the scenery add-on).

We had loads of little tricks, for example, "when those two lakes line up on your left-hand side, it's time to turn base". Lots of other small prompts as well such as "on final, you want to cross those power lines at approx 600ft QNH and then if you're happy with the approach select the final stage of flap".

So, what I'm trying to say, is that if you start trying to follow that blue line on flight sim you're probably wasting your time and will need to "unlearn" it all when you start circuit bashing in real life. By all means have a play around on flight sim after the lesson, but not before.

[hegemon88]

Hi gerardflyagain,

I learned to fly relatively late (first trial lesson at the age of 34, well, 3 days short really) and have tortured MSFS since I was 24. Although not nearly as experienced as most posters (just PPL(A)+IR(R) and some 260 flying hours) I can now say: These. Are. Two. Totally. Different. Worlds. Not easy to admit after wasting 10 years landing B737s on autoland.

The first time when MSFS genuinely helped me in real flying learning was at the later stages of my IR(R) course (used to be called IMC rating). Instrument flying was somehow better simulated on a flat screen with me sitting on a stationary chair, than visual flying, as instrument one requires you to (a) concentrate on instruments, (b) ignore the sensory "feelings" altogether (so it doesn't matter that much that you're sitting on a chair and not flying). In visual flying, although looking around can be simulated (and I have 3 screens) it simply isn't the same thing. No amount of kit, force feedback and graphics power will emulate a lookout during a steep turn when you're pulling 2g at the same time.


But that's just my 2p - it's your time, money and life, and your choice whom you believe, as others say.

Back to your original question. Your first solo flight will mostly likely be a single circuit to land, along the solid line, at altitude (not height) of 1000'. Further to that, your solo cross-country (which may be your 5th or 10th solo flight, time will tell) is likely to involve leaving the circuit after the first turn, along the dashed line, and via the relevant VRP. By then, you will know both VRPs by heart and have nightmares about the circuit exit and re-entry, due to having flown them with your instructor so many times.

At early stages of learning I was very similar - tried to do an awful lot between the lessons and couldn't wait for the next one. Fortunately my instructor was able to pacify me and convince me that if I really have the urge to do something, reading about the relevant exercise in Vol. 1 of my PPL textbook set was the best thing to do before next lesson. It was indeed.

I learned at Stapleford and am yet to visit Denham. Maybe one day.

Enjoy every minute of your flying course!



/h88




P.S. Thread drifting and perceived (rarely actual) hostility are inherent features of PPRuNe. You can't have the forum without these, just like you can't have a spin without a stall.

[gerardflyagain]

MrAverage, thanks. Those strike me as wise words.

hegemon88, thanks for the useful insight and answering the question.

FZRA, thanks, I'll bear all of that in mind.

I will have only been flight simming for about two or three months by the time I have my first lesson this year. If the net benefit of me practicing on the flight sim is negative, at least I won't have been doing it too long. As I said before, I'm hoping the net benefit will be positive.

[tmmorris]

I always worry about the 'you should be at 600ft over those power lines, then select flap' type instructors.

It's one thing knowing the routes in and out of an airfield like Denham using ground features. But the circuit should be judged by the position and appearance of the runway. Otherwise, how are you going to land at an unfamiliar airfield?

[FZRA]

I always worry about the 'you should be at 600ft over those power lines, then select flap' type instructors.

Don't get me wrong - not all of my training was conducted in this way.

I'm just talking about the early days of circuit bashing at the local airfield. I also believe it was more to do with noise abatement than anything else (e.g. if you overshoot the line joining those two lakes, you'll overfly that b**tard farmer who always complains").

Once the first solo was done, we of course started landing away at which point I was expected to get a feel for the circuit by normal visual cues such as threshold 45 degrees behind the wing when turning base etc.

[TurningFinals]

I passed my GST last week and during training I did use xplane, but only for getting the checks into my head at the appropriate stages of flight, IE downwind checks, FREDA checks, etc. Also drills like PFL etc, but purely to get the drills into my head as it did little to help my aircraft handing skills, but it did make learning checklists more enjoyable.

[Rabbs]

Let me add a +1 for the simulator as this thread seems to be very "Sims are bad" orientated. I do wonder if people here have actually flown with a decent simulator setup (aircraft simulated (with exact panel and characteristics of real aircraft) VFR Scenery, airfield scenery, yoke pedals and trackir). If you have PMDG 747 and purely do ILS approaches into LHR with a 2D Panel then of course the sim wont help. But if you have the right sim set up for VFR work with a 3D panel and he ability to look outside of the cockpit in the way you do in a real aircraft then I found it invaluable.

I have the aircraft I fly replicated in FSX, VFR scenery, so I can navigate looking out of the window, airfield scenery so I have the familiarisation of home and local airfields, trackir so I can look around in a 3D cockpit and outside views without having my head stuck in the cockpit, an ipad with the main instruments to cross reference and skydemon connected (then map in hand :)).

For me the sim helped through my training (and the insturctor commented on my second lesson positively) - but I really think you need to make your own judgement. Imagine if they hadn't used sims in things like F1 - it wouldnt be the sport we have today, but you do need to spend some $ on setup for it to be any use with VFR.

Heres a few reasons why I + Sims

- with trackir you dont have your head in the cockpit you are using the external clues as you would for real. You dont get sensations such as ground rush on landing but you do get the sensation of flying and have the ability to reference land marks and look around as you would in the real AC, with the ability to pause and look at systems/radios/effects in the air or in the ground.

- practising the pre-landing checks downwind etc and being able to pause really helped to get them nailed.

- practising failures in the Sim is far easier than for real - set up fsx to fail your vacuum pump within 5 mins of take of brings home what really would happen in real life. Then practising the pfls.

- practising the route (and yes looking out the window) with map in one hand and using fsx scenery to identify features and practice the cross country/approach to the airfields, circuits etc the day before the actual flight (and I still do this)

- practising the overhead join and pausing it to review where you are and to look at the aircraft from different positions.

- learning to use the functions of the GPS and pausing to read the manual.

- learning airfield runway/taxi layouts (especially large ones before you get there)

- using the approach plate and flying it in the Sim to understand before doing it for real.

For me the Sim helped both for VFR and IMC (and still does) but everyone unto their own. I think try it - see if it helps or hinders - if it helps keep using, if you find yourself going backwards during your training then lay off the Sim. But for me it definitely helped (and still does).

[kghjfg]

I pulled off 3 greasers on the trot on Friday. It lead to a big discussion about landing.

Something which you find nigh on impossible at first, but when you start to "feel" the sink, and use your peripheral vision, and understand how long you can actually hold off, and how slowly to pull that throttle, it starts to fit together.

I'm glad I didn't try to learn with a sim.

Out of interest, (this is not a snotty question, it's a genuine point)
OP, do you think you could have learnt to drive using a computer sim ?

Driving is child's play compared. There are no lay-bys in the sky, and you can't just pause an aircraft in real life. In real life you can pause your car by letting go of everything and pressing the brake. No one dies if you do that in car.

[Genghis the Engineer]

On the other hand, let go of the controls in most conditions for half a minute, and nobody dies in an aeroplane. I'd hate to do that on a motorway!

(Flippant point I know, just emphasising that they're quite different).

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

On the other hand, let go of the controls in most conditions for half a minute, and nobody dies in an aeroplane.True. But leave it long enough and you'll likely be in a spiral dive ...


Now, I've never got into an inadvertent spiral dive in VMC, and I have difficulty imaging how one can. (IMC's a different matter, where I take the possibility of accidentally falling out of the sky sideways very seriously indeed.)


So - genuine question this - what are the scenarios in which you might accidentally end up in a spiral dive under VMC? - there must be some, or there wouldn't be the emphasis on recovering from it in PPL training.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Depends upon the stability characteristics of the aeroplane - but yes, that's common to quite a lot of GA types. Some won't do that however.


As an occasional instructor I've seen inadvertent spiral dive entries quite a few times - two entry mechanisms. (And it's worth mentioning that I'm a CRI, so this is all in people who already hold PPLs).

(1) Steep turns, failing to keep back stick pressure, or keep the ball in the middle.

(2) Failure to properly co-ordinate a turn, especially at low level where there's a changing visual horizon.

I've had a post-PPL student put an aircraft into a spiral dive whilst initiating a descending turn onto deadside during an overhead join. That was exciting!

Loss of horizon in poor visibility, but legal VMC, is another possibility.

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Ta.
Loss of horizon in poor visibility, but legal VMC, is another possibility.
Ah, I don't seem to suffer from that one. (So far.) I have in the past puzzled instructors by my ability to manage perfectly happily without anything much at all in the way of a visible horizon, to an extent which is quite out of keeping with my overall flying abilities :)


Such as, one day there was no horizon and hence all the other lessons were cancelled, but my own lesson went ahead because "unlike the others you don't seem to need a horizon".

[kghjfg]

The "point" was that in a car, when it all gets too much you can just "stop driving" and take a break. On a motorway you "can" pull onto the hard shoulder and stop.

You cannot pull over at 3000' and take a break because you are fatigued or mentally overloaded.

Does the OP think you could learn to drive in a home built sim that doesn't have pedals?

I suppose if it works for you, fine, however, personally I found one of the things I needed to learn was that you cannot pause or reset or stop for a break when it's getting a bit much on final. That's a very important skill.

[pulse1]

what are the scenarios in which you might accidentally end up in a spiral dive under VMC?

On my second solo cross country in a Tiger Moth my scarf started to depart in the breeze. It needed two hands to save it and by the time I had made it safe, I was entering a spiral dive.

[patowalker]

An Isadora Duncan moment?

[gerardflyagain]

Thanks TurningFinals and Rabbs. I intend to use sims for similar procedure and familiarisation based learning.

Rabbs, I have a very similar setup to you: pedals, force feedback stick (good for trim), trackir, VFR and airfield scenery, ipad with maps etc.

kghjfg, I definitely think my setup would have been helpful in learning to drive, in combination with actual lessons. This is what I'm attempting to use my sim for for flying (assisting actual lessons). In particular, it would have been helpful for practicing procedures (e.g. reverse park with trackir for checking around me), and for familiarising myself with the local roads.

[Genghis the Engineer]

... under the guidance of your instructor ?

G

[gerardflyagain]

Before my initial lessons with an instructor it, of course, can't be with his guidance. Once I start them, then he can guide as well.

[Genghis the Engineer]

= no !

Remember that you aren't an expert on learning to fly and instructors are .

G

[kghjfg]

Gerard, you're not by any chance a teacher are you ?
I only ask because a student who is/was a teacher was posting on a forum recently explaining that he could learn to fly from books. I mean, how hard can it be?!

Seriously though, I presume you have rudder pedals in your setup then.
What will be really really useful to students who come after you would be if you could update this thread with what you didn't know you didn't know (even though people tried to explain) when you start learning, and exactly what a sim could help with.

When you learn, for the first 5 lessons you think it's easy because you don't even notice your mistakes. Then you get better and you have a massive slump when you notice your mistakes and think you can't do anything right. You've improved, but you see it as the opposite.

All the time you have this FI chap sitting next to you,who knows what to let go and what not.

Pushing a yoke forward any time AFTER a flare is a massive no-no and will get you hurt in short order, as will a slow final turn, taking your hand off the throttle in climb out isn't critical, till one day you swap planes and you're in the plane where it vibrates shut.
Your FI might let that one go, but he'll go ape if you start your turn onto final below 65 knots.

And seriously, and this is my final point, you'll have no idea at any time what you did wrong or are doing wrong. You need an FI to debrief your flights. By trial and error you might learn to fly a sim, you won't learn to fly a plane. There will be no one there to debrief you. If you think you can debrief yourself, then you are beyond hope, and I suppose it's best not to reply any more.

[gerardflyagain]

Genghis, I completely agree, I have no expertise on learning to fly at all, the instructors are the experts. As I have said before, I am trying to gain certain benefits from simming (e.g. procedural, familiarisation), knowing that I will be inviting some disbenefits e.g. not having an expert to tell me bits I'm doing wrong.

kghjfg, I am not a teacher. I do have rudder pedals. I will try to update this thread at some point after my lessons have started. I fully expect to be annoyed and surprised by some of the negatives the flight sim has provided. I hope that the net position will still be a benefit though.

I don't think I can debrief myself at all. I think a lot of people on this thread have assumed that I think I can fully train myself to fly with a flight sim alone. I don't. I can't fly, I can't instruct. I said in one of my first posts 'I will not be telling my instructor that I have 'learned to fly' on a sim so he can just hand me the keys.'. I'm trying to use a flight sim to help me, that is all. Some in this thread say it has helped them. I'm saying it based on some evidence, even though there is no black and white right or wrong. I am willing to learn and I know that I know very little.

[Capn Bug Smasher]

My succinct take on this is that you can use a flight sim to learn about flying, but you can't use a flight sim to learn to fly.


It's a very subtle difference that I didn't grasp until doing procedure flying like navigation or flight by sole reference to instruments.


IMO the only thing a flight simulator does for a pre-solo pilot is reduce the effort needed in ground school a bit, because you already know how some things work. Flight instruments is an obvious one, already raised.

[rnzoli]

I hope that the net position will still be a benefit though.
Read more details on the subject of moving on from an avid simmer (not MSFS, but a IL-2 Sturmovik = better physics). Flight Sim to Flight Line | SimHQ (http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_451a.html)

Another real-world way to prepare for your training is to hang around the airfield, and ask for the possibility to sit and practice in the aircraft you will train in, on the ground. Usually this costs nothing. You can sometimes also grab a free ride on the circuit, when someone does training in a 4-seater. These preparations s will give you far more headstart ahead than the illusionary world. I also moved from game/sim to RL flying, it was a neutral balance for me. If you can arrange ground practice, or catch a backseat ride with anothet student pilot, that's time better spent.

[gerardflyagain]

That was a great article, thanks!

Yes, I'll try to hang around for flights with other people.