Stag party causes Ryanair diversion

[Heathrow Harry]

Stag party causes Ryanair diversion - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35681147)

Six British members of a stag party on a Ryanair flight were arrested for allegedly drunken behaviour which forced an unscheduled landing in Berlin, police there say.

The men were flying from London Luton to the Slovak capital Bratislava.
The groom was among those detained for endangering security when the flight landed at Berlin's Schoenefeld airport. They were later released, but could face fines of up to €25,000 (£20,000) and a possible civil damages suit.


The group of 12 from Southampton were among 170 passengers on the Ryanair flight on Friday evening. As six of the party, including the groom, became drunk, they ignored crew instructions, a Berlin police statement said. When refused further alcohol, they became aggressive and one member of the group undressed, according to German press reports.


The pilot decided to make an unscheduled landing at Berlin's Schoenefeld airport, where the six men, aged between 25 and 28, were taken into police custody, but later released. The remaining 164 passengers, including the six members of the stag party who were not involved in the incident, were able to continue their journey to Bratislava.

[paully]

Beer In = Wit Out..:ugh: I sincerely hope O`Leary sues them for the cost of the diversion...

[chrissw]

When I first read this, I hoped the German authorities would throw a whole library of books at them, but it says they were released. What's going on?

[SMT Member]

What's going on?

The coppers claiming it took place outside their jurisdiction. Which, legally, might make perfect sense - I'm not a lawyer. My bet is they're already on their way to Bratislava, courtesy of the next LCC willing to take their money.

[keith williams]

The authorities should have tattooed "DO NOT FLY" on their foreheads and then let them find their own way home.

Or am I just being grumpy this morning?

[ManaAdaSystem]

Crusify them if they got drunk from alcohol they brought with them.
Crusify Ryanair if they were allowed on board drunk, or if they were served too much alcohol on board.
A place serving alcohol on the ground could loose their license if they sell alcohol to drunk people.
The same should apply to airlines.

[chrissw]

The BBC News article has now been updated to say that the six were charged by German police and subsequently released.

[davebham]

i too hope Ryanair sue them. Idiots like this do not deserve to fly.

[RAT 5]

That's good news. Iy would suggest they will need to return, at their own cost, to Germany for the court case. Is the the case, or did the offence take place on Irish territory, but in German airspace? Can the Germans pass it on to the Irish courts? Could they end up with a criminal case in one country and then a civil damages case in Ireland?
Escaping out of Berlin back to UK would not be cheap. I wonder what kind of 'stag night' the others had in Bratislava without a groom.

[Denti]

More booze for the rest, and probably more fun with the girls...

[paully]

As a fairly regular traveller what does worry me is the blind eyes turned regularly by the gate staff to those not fit to travel through drink..Ok fair do`s most of the staff are female and almost always the drunks are built like Will Carling.That doesn`t excuse the handling Companies from their responsibilities though.

Last time out of LPL, it was the despatcher who stopped one drunk from boarding, at the bottom of the steps. Gate staff had let him through:ugh:

These incidents will continue until Airlines get more demanding with their agents.....oh hang on, er, how much more will that cost????? :rolleyes:

[lomapaseo]

i too hope Ryanair sue them. Idiots like this do not deserve to fly.

I doubt the airline has a case since they aided and abetted the booze per hour

[Sober Lark]

Passengers - soft drinks make them hyper. Give them something to eat and they go into anaphylactic shock. Alcohol will most likely result in a diversion. Reclining seats just don't give them any. A side effect of their own pills is lewd acts. A bit of turbulence and they will snap because of air travel anxiety. A hard landing and they will sue you. Always remember to smile, thank them for flying with you and let them believe you hope to see them again soon.

[lotus1]

Had a same incident with another budget airline at Alicante last August the orange one? Flight down big ruck stag party police waiting for flight at gate as the police officer mentioned until they stop selling the booze which is part of the airlines revenue just going to carry on

[LTNman]

Crusify them if they got drunk from alcohol they brought with them.
Crusify Ryanair if they were allowed on board drunk, or if they were served too much alcohol on board.
A place serving alcohol on the ground could loose their license if they sell alcohol to drunk people.
The same should apply to airlines.

The problem for staff at the airport and crew is that it is very hard to spot stag parties as they often travel in disguise. I took this photo on Friday afternoon on the day of the alleged incident at Luton. As can be seen it is almost impossible to tell whether these passengers are on a potential stag weekend or are traveling to a new Priory. :E Apparently the group in question boarded the aircraft drunk at Luton

Alexander Koller, a passenger on the flight, criticised the men, Ryanair staff and the German police. He told MailOnline: "The passengers were a disgrace.The fact that they were allowed to board at all after making a huge nuisance of themselves in the departure hall at Luton and being so drunk that some were struggling to stand, was an even bigger disgrace."

"It was a total failure by Ryanair's ground staff at the gate and by the cabin crew who should have spotted them. This was not hard given that they were extremely loud and obnoxious whilst boarding and finding their seats."

"This was potentially a very dangerous situation, and the operation in Berlin was pathetic, proceeding without any plan."

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c275/ksmithltn/P1050139%202_zpsexv3e4js.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/ksmithltn/media/P1050139%202_zpsexv3e4js.jpg.html)

[G-CPTN]

If those arrested are banned from flying in future (at least by the particular LoCo), yet are required to attend court (in Berlin), will they have to travel by ferry/overland? - or will they grace another LoCo with their presence?

[ExXB]

Isn't BER just a little out of the way for a LTN-BTS flight? Perhaps I should rephrase as a question. How is a diversion airport chosen in cases like this?

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LTN-BTS%0D%0ALTN-BER-BTS%0D%0A&PC=red&DU=nm&SU=kts&RS=best&RC=navy

[Station_Calling]

until they stop selling the booze which is part of the airlines revenue just going to carry on

Agree to an extent, but you would not believe the number of people who bring 1l bottles of vodka onto the aircraft - eve just for a short hop down to the Balearics. The Airport has a responsibility here. We do our best to stop it, but it is common to retrieve empty 1l bottles on the turnaround...

[RAT 5]

who bring 1l bottles of vodka onto the aircraft - but it is common to retrieve empty 1l bottles on the turnaround...


Especially as the 1L bottle is one of Highland Spring smelling strongly of vodka.

And't don't forget the coke bottle full of red wine, or the lemon fanta = white wine.

[anengineer]

Bars selling alcohol 24/7 at the airport, bars selling alcohol 24/7 in the departure lounge, duty-free shops selling cut price alcohol in the departure lounge, cabin crew pushing alcohol-laden trolleys up and down the aisle during the flight.

Shock and outrage that some people get drunk. :rolleyes:


Short of misting it throughout the plane via the air conditioning, I can't think of anything else they could do to get any more alcohol into the passengers.

[HeartyMeatballs]

A diversion will be selected based on a number of factors. In terms of flying it will be weather, fuel, terrain, notams, approach type, performance. Operationally things like ground support, maintenance and fuelling are important. Availability of the police may also be a factor. SXF is more likely to have assistance as opposed to some of the smaller airports nearer the route. A combination of all of these factors will go into deciding.

Avoiding a €47,250+ liability thanks to EU261 will also play a role in deciding what happens to flights too.

[Alsacienne]

I have great sympathy with CC who have to put up with illicit drinkers and drunks. Perhaps other passengers could play a pro-active role to make sure they don't get delayed by a divert or offended by 'high jinks' (very high jinks). They could have a word with gate staff at boarding card check or even CC on boarding ... or is that just 'not cricket'?

[cheese bobcat]

Personally, I cannot get the idea of these stag and hen parties. But there again I'm an oldie.

However, a large group of young men/ young women are surely going to ring bells somewhere!

I hope they throw the book at them. But unfortunately, it's bound to infringe their human (!) rights.

Where are we going here?

I hate it when I'm on flights where there are these parites even if they're relatively well behaved. They just embarrass themselves in their stupid outfits!

CB

[Herod]

Short of misting it throughout the plane via the air conditioning, I can't think of anything else they could do to get any more alcohol into the passengers

Stop giving them ideas.

I have been told (never tried it) that if you are in a sauna and pour vodka over the stones, it does just that. Into the lungs, into the bloodstream. Apparently you can go from sober to out of your tree in almost a matter of seconds. "I sure picked a hell of a day to give up sniffing glue"

[Avenger]

Drunkenness in aircraft
139.—(1) A person must not enter any aircraft when drunk, or be drunk in any aircraft.

Allowing the people to board in the first instance is against the ANO and as such I don't think Ryanair has a leg to stand on, Worse than this they have a legal duty to ensure the safety of the passengers and crew.. if this were the US there would be streams of court cases following this event. Of course its small beer ( forgive the pun) but again free publicity for Ryanair. the " caring airline"

[ExXB]

I also think the obscene prices charged on board, has an influence on pre-loading at airport bars. It must be 90%, or more, profit on flights to non-EU destinations as the airlines charge full VAT / duty inclusive prices but don't pay a penny to the exchequer. Bar-stewards.

Was at BRS the other day and got a pint of Butcome at the airport bar. On the flight to GVA a 33ml crap lager cost more (and they paid zero VAT/Duty). Bar-stewards.

[HeartyMeatballs]

You'd have to raise that with the caterers. Its their products the airlines sell. They take the money. It's their POS devices used to process payments. The airlines just take a commission and don't decide where tax is paid or exempt. The prices are obscene in your opinion. However I bet a double branded spirit and branded mixer will be a similar price in a city bar, and compared to downtown GVA are pretty cheap.

If people want to drink, they'll drink regardless of the cost onboard. A stag do won't arrive at an airport and think 'let's look at at the nice things to buy in the shop' or 'let's sit down for a nice green chai latte' knowing that there's cheap drink onboard. I doubt the onboard prices even crossed the minds of this lot. They drink at the airport because they want to get drunk and know there's very little chance of the airport turning down their request for drink.

[LlamaFarmer]

From the sounds of it, this group were disruptive before doors closed, so did their behaviour escalate throughout the flight, or was it consistently bad right from the start?

If it did get worse, was the captain aware of potential problematic pax before departure, and were they kept informed regarding the groups' behaviour throughout the flight before the decision to divert? Or did the CC unsuccessfully try to deal with the situation themselves before bringing the problem to the skipper?

If the flight crew were aware on the ground still, did captain give them an ultimatum during the flight of behave or get arrested, or did it "come as a surprise" to the group when the flight was div'd?


Every situation is different, but I would have to consider telling the passengers to put up and shut up, or the plane would be diverted and they would be removed from the aircraft.
Over the pa if necessary. Apologising to the rest of the passengers for a small groups' behaviour whilst condemning the groups actions, and telling them (for all passengers to hear) that if they did not begin to follow all crew instructions and behave appropriately they would be arrested when the aircraft was on the ground.




Not criticising the crew, there isn't really enough information to say what happened. Just thinking out loud.

[LlamaFarmer]

You'd have to raise that with the caterers. Its their products the airlines sell. They take the money. It's their POS devices used to process payments. The airlines just take a commission and don't decide where tax is paid or exempt.



And therein lies the problem.

Back when I worked in bars and clubs during my time at uni, I got paid no matter how much I sold or refused to serve customers.


I was actively encouraged by the personal licence holder not to serve to those who did not have ID and may have been underage, or those who were significantly intoxicated (i.e. drunk and loud but civilised was fine, but can barely stand/walk/talk or aggressive was not).

When I was a supervisor I likewise made sure others refused sales where appropriate, because I knew I'd lose my job if it came to it.



I understand that for airlines there will always be an incentive to sell alcohol (where it is not complimentary already), but if there was a DISinsentive to refuse to serve those who are drunk (such as likely chance of a disciplinary or worse, or a personal fine) then that would surely reduce the problem I'd have thought.




As a passenger myself, I've seen plenty of other passengers who are obviously too far gone and yet they continue to be served.

Although on the other hand I've also seen very diplomatic cabin crew who manage the situation very well.

"Sorry sir, we're all out of Bacardi I'm afraid. Yes, and the Smirnoff too I'm afraid sir."
*moves to the next row*
"Yes madam, what would you like? Vodka and coke? Coming right up"

[evansb]

"Passengers - soft drinks make them hyper." Whaa..? The Sugar - Hyperactivity link has been proven false over 6 years ago by several separate double-blind scientific studies. Perhaps there is a caffeine link to hyperactivity, but sugar? Nope. Of course, alcoholic beverages due contain sugar, but that was not the direct cause of the poor behavior of the yobs..

[crewmeal]

Originally these sort of incidences resulted in custodial sentences, now they are so common that many have been watered down with a slap on the wrist. Until this country gets strong with justice sadly crime will just spiral out of control.

In this case FR being an Irish registered company so do they come under UK jurisdiction when flying from a UK airport?

[HeartyMeatballs]

The crew will probably earn 10p each commission per drink they sell. This is then taxed/NI deducted/student loan deducted. Now we are down to about £0.06 per drink. Its really not much of an incentive, trust me.

Now, let's consider this happened 30/40 minutes into the flight. Cabin crew start the service 10-15 minutes into the flight.

Even if we assume the offenders were at the front or back rows and served first, how many drinks do we estimate they had time to drink? One? Two if they necked the first one?

The problem will be the airport bought litres of spirits. This has nothing to do with 'high' onboard prices. It's airports wanting to make money and stags who what to drink theirselves silly.

High onboard prices has nothing do with it. It's people who want to get drunk. Period. Those same people will quite happily spend £4 for tea and biscuits or £3 for a can of red bull that's 50p in the supermarket. Why? It's because they have a need that needs to be fulfilled. On the way out that need is getting drunk. On the way back it's dealing with the hangover.

I was crew for years and can't think of one drink fuelled incident that the crew caused. On rowdy flights it's a one drink maximum. That tiny tin of beer is a drop in the ocean and is neither here nor there. Refuse alcohol completely and they start to get really difficult. Which is what happened on this flight. Airlines are getting better at t all the time. Credit most of all should go to Jet2. However my airline politely emails those who've been unruly and tells them their return flight is cancelled - find another way home. That makes me happy.

[FullWings]

There’s been a long-running idea that duty free items could be picked up at the other end. That would mean them travelling in the hold or secure storage in the cabin, or even bought from an exit facility at destination. Anything purchased on board could be handed over when disembarking.

This would a) stop people drinking the contents on the aircraft and, more seriously, b) stop passengers evacuating down the slides in an emergency with bags full of glass and flammable liquid. If picked up at the far end, it would save quite a bit of weight on the flight, too.

[HeartyMeatballs]

Having watched the video, that is one of the worst things I've ever witnessed onboard. A complete and utter bully, allowed to rampage unchallenged by crew. If a situation developed whereby someone has to stand in between two people to stop a fight, then that is the most serious situation and requires an immediate landing.

The male CC and the female CC had absolutely no authority, no presence having let this happen for a good two minutes. The male CC response to an out of control situation in the cabin was a couple of mumbled words, then challenges someone filming it a few rows back. Priorities?? The female one wasn't much better either.

Unfortunately as there's no blacklist they'll probably fly on with another airline, ready to rampage again.

FullWings - good idea, but airports make their money mainly on departing outbound passengers when they're benefitting from the holiday factor where people are more likely to spend. This will cost them, and they won't support it. Airports care not about safety. Apart from mandated security screening, once that's over the job of e airport is to extract as much cash as possible from the passengers. Nothing else.

[Sober Lark]

evansb, I didn't know the sugar hyperactivity myth had been busted, thanks. Came across another label - Responsibility Deficit Disorder (RDD).

[HeartyMeatballs]

Our friends to the east of our continent are exactly the same unfortunately when it comes to drink.

Never done them but the Scandinavians like a good drink too apparently. And who can forget Mr Arthorsson of Icelandair fame? Speed tape anyone?

[A and C]

Above we have a list of things to be banned, travel on an airliner is quite unplesent enough without the ban police making it even worse just to stop the odd inccident from 0.00001% of the passengers.

So what is proposed above is that 99.9999 % of the passengers who are law abiding suffer for the behaviour of the few !

Apart from a little more control by the staff at the gate and a policy of prosecuting in 100% of these cases ( both criminal & civil) I can't see anything that needs to be done as any other measures are just infringing the rights of the vast majority of the law abiding passengers.

Please remember we are running the airline business for the law abiding passengers, not the very few disruptive idiots and not fall into the mindset of the tabloid press who's instant call is " ban everything "

[His dudeness]

Apart from a little more control by the staff at the gate and a policy of prosecuting in 100% of these cases ( both criminal & civil) I can't see anything that needs to be done as any other measures are just infringing the rights of the vast majority of the law abiding passengers.

Sorry to say old chap, but you´re too late.

In current times, we forbid more because previous bans on the same subject have not produced the desired results.... that happens everywhere, like on the road where the limit was 100km/h and 4 drunk teens/twens kill themselves with massive overspeed, the authorities then put up a 70km/h sign, cause its a "accident hotspot". Won´t help the drunk drivers going too fast, but hey, never mind...

[G-CPTN]

the Scandinavians like a good drink too apparently.

Whilst this is true, the situation is exacerbated by the differential cost of alcohol between the Scandinavian countries.

When the ferries were the means of travelling between them,you could always spot the Swedes and the Norwegians as they would have their drinks 'lined-up' to keep them going during the crossing.

[Phileas Fogg]

Was at BRS the other day and got a pint of Butcome at the airport bar. On the flight to GVA a 33ml crap lager cost more (and they paid zero VAT/Duty). Bar-stewards.

There were plenty of times that I flew UK/Switzerland/UK and I never paid for a beer once ... with Swiss, I was tempted to quote "you get what you pay for" but often Swiss were cheaper than LCC's!

But credit where credit is due ... SAS, the only airline I've flown with that served low alcohol beer, I had my car to drive after landing and SAS served the perfect alcoholic beverage under the circumstances.

[Dave's brother]

I'm shocked that the flight attendant thought it more important to try to stop a passenger from filming rather than dealing with the real and serious situation. In fact, he should have been welcoming the filming and asking the passenger to please provide a copy on landing for the ensuing criminal prosecution.

Maybe there's a training opportunity here.

[RAT 5]

I'm shocked that the flight attendant thought it more important to try to stop a passenger from filming

And the same was attempted by CA's recently during an RTO. Are there laws in force that forbid filming on board? If not then the order from CA's has no weight.

[Fortissimo]

Perhaps the flight attendant thought the filming was inflaming the situation?

And regardless of any specific prohibitions, an appropriate order given by a flight attendant attempting to maintain discipline in the cabin would carry weight because he/she is acting with the authority of the commander.

[Hotel Tango]

In fact filming the situation may well provide evidence which will help the airline with litigation against the offending passenger(s). I think that this "no filming" is a typical knee jerk reaction by some F/As.

[Basil]

Personally, I'd prefer to permit filming BUT inside an aircraft is not a public place.
If a cabin crew member exercises the authority devolved from the Pilot in Command to order filming to cease then you are in breach of the Air Navigation Order if you continue and are committing a criminal offence.
I'd suspect that not a lot of passengers are aware of that.

[fa2fi]

Speaking of airports and alcohol, today the world's first airport distillery opened in LGW.

[Fliegenmong]

Oh Dear God....I just watched that video.....bright yellow hard plastic seat backs with hamburger advertising stuck to it.....:{ for the love of God..is there any wonder...:hmm:

Expecting to be flying through Northern Europe later this year....this vid vindicates my decision not to even entertain a LCC.....not that I am expecting much more from a 'legacy' carrier nowadays, but a tacky seat back like that !! :yuk::yuk:

Actually I don't entertain any LCC nowadays....I travel less and enjoy it more, even though 'the Golden' times are over.....I don't pay to be bombarded with fast food advertising.....I refuse to accept that level of disdain of me...f*%k you.....my money goes elsewhere....shame more people didn't do the same :=

[Phileas Fogg]

If a cabin crew member exercises the authority devolved from the Pilot in Command to order filming to cease then you are in breach of the Air Navigation Order if you continue and are committing a criminal offence.
I'd suspect that not a lot of passengers are aware of that.

And just how many passengers would be aware of, or even heard of, the ANO at the point of online booking or being briefed regarding at the point of check-in, boarding or during the pre-departure safety briefing?

A scenario of common sense prevails, don't endanger the aircraft, don't behave like a total idiot etc. but on board video movies are all over youtube, the web, so, common sense prevailing, what could possibly be wrong with filming on board?

So this, and many other, video(s) is illegal and should be removed from the web forthwith?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqh8e2KYIrU

[Local Variation]

The person filming tells CC that he is doing so as he intends to make a complaint. Seems honourable.

The video then ends up with The Sun newspaper. Doesn't seem honourable.

[Phileas Fogg]

The video then ends up with The Sun newspaper. Doesn't seem honourable.

You mean O'Leary wouldn't sell something if there was a buck to be made out of it?

[Basil]

what could possibly be wrong with filming on board?

So this, and many other, video(s) is illegal and should be removed from the web forthwith?
Filming before being required to stop is not the point.
At the beginning of my post I said:
Personally, I'd prefer to permit filming BUT inside an aircraft is not a public place.
Nevertheless, failure to obey an ORDER to stop filming is a criminal offence and ignorance of the law is no defence.

[ExXB]

You'd have to raise that with the caterers. Its their products the airlines sell. They take the money. It's their POS devices used to process payments. The airlines just take a commission and don't decide where tax is paid or exempt. The prices are obscene in your opinion.

Not in my case. The receipt I was given had the name of the airline printed on it. It did not have a VAT number printed on it though.

When compared to a pint paid at 'airport' prices at the departure airport I found the price of a 33ml tin of Stella to be obscene. My point is the airlines, particularly those that are known for charging high prices for alcohol, are partially to blame for the 'pre-loading' some passengers do at, or before, the airport.

I certainly don't envy the flight crew, but senior executive's bonuses come first, I suppose.

[9 lives]

In Ontario right now, it's big news about this Muzzo person, who, with his drunken buddies arrived home to Toronto YYZ from a stag party in Las Vegas, then attempted to drive home drunk. It ended with horror:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/marco-muzzo-could-speak-today-074300965.html

I hope they throw the book a these goofs, and cost recover all expenses, including other passenger's time lost due to their selfish behavior. These are the same human blobs who would be obstacles and obstructions in the case of an emergency evacuation, further endangering the rest of the passengers.

When I was very new working for a Canadian charter airline, I was in the YYZ Terminal 2 baggage area, having returned from England on business with our Vice President. Staggering around near us was a totally drunk passenger, also jut off this flight. I recall watching him pass out, and fall face first onto the floor. This was thin carpet on concrete, and he made no effort to break his own fall. I'm sure I hear his nose break as he hit. Hi wife, obviously used to this, instead of helping him, kicked him in the ribs and said "Get up Howard. you're drunk!". I told the security staff that a passenger might require medical attention in the baggage area.

I never heard any more of this event, but I pointed out to the VP that we had given him all that booze, and were probably liable for his injuries. We slowly adopted a policy of limiting serving to drunk passengers.

[Less Hair]

Nevertheless, failure to obey an ORDER to stop filming is a criminal offence and ignorance of the law is no defence.

The filming passenger says he intends to use the film to complain about the flight. Sounds like a valid point to me. As no electronic device without active emissions is considered to be dangerous inflight anymore stopping the filming is just censorship.

[Sober Lark]

stopping the filming is just censorship


So you'd rather antagonise the thug by filming him?

[Hotel Tango]

So you'd rather antagonise the thug by filming him?

Valid point, or is it? You can't reason with drunken idiots, therefore it might be a good idea to film as long as feasibly possible for the sake of recording irrefutable evidence of their actions.

Incidentally, I very much doubt that this CC was following a direct order from the Captain. More like his own initiative.

[Less Hair]

How is this handled on the ground in similar cases? Could -let's say a barkeeper- "order" you to stop filming a scene like this if you feel offended and expect to need this as evidence etc.? I'd say in today's iPhone age these days are gone. Pratically everything can and will be recorded and stored and made available to the Sun.

[Flying Lawyer]

I very much doubt that this CC was following a direct order from the Captain. More like his own initiative.

I haven't read anything which suggests that the commander of the aircraft gave such an order.

[Less Hair]

A Flight Attendant on duty certainly has the power to give orders to pax by himself. Just not sure about censoring witnesses or destroying evidence.

[RAT 5]

Interesting about the timing of the diversion and captain's knowledge. If this muppet was somewhat fuzzy when boarding it is >1.00hr from STN - SXF. i.e. well into the flight. I was just curious how long it was before the volcano reached critical pressure. Equally, as has been mentioned, SXF seems well off route to Bratislava. Looking at a google map I would have expected them to be closer to HHN than SXF, assuming a diversion into a RYR base would offer better & knowledgeable ground service: also a base captain to represent RYR's interests in any immediate action & follow-up.

[Rwy in Sight]

What constitutes "an appropriate order"? Can a FA ask me to stop reading a novel or don't make pictures on the landscape we are flying over?

[Bronx]

A Flight Attendant on duty certainly has the power to give orders to pax by himself.

They do under US federal law.
This wasn't a US aircraft and it wasn't in US airspace.

Passengers' behavior is governed by laws of the country where the airplane is registered.
So is what the crew can and can't do.

[Herod]

I once had the CC inform me that one of the passengers was so far gone that he had thrown up in the bus to the aircraft. Old days, well before 9/11, so I went down the back and informed said "gentleman" that he was going to be offloaded. "Who the f**k do you think you are?" was his reasoned reply. His mate, whom I had no problem with, then confirmed his own offloading with "Yeah, who the f**k do you think you are?". It took a while, and the arrival of the police, before they were off the aircraft. Not the first or last time I had experience the gate staff passing the problem to the cabin crew. Usually it manifests itself once airborne, and several times I've had the aircraft met by the police.

[victorc10]

The authority of the commander is devolved to the cabin crew in performing their duties, the commander does not need to issue specific instructions. All reasonable instructions are backed up by the legal authority of the commander. If you fail to follow an instruction from the cabin crew, of which stop filming IS a reasonable instruction, as is an instruction to turn off any electronic device regardless of flight mode status, the authority of the commander has not been followed and a law has been broken.

[Basil]

Incidentally, I very much doubt that this CC was following a direct order from the Captain. More like his own initiative.

It doesn't have to be a direct or relayed order from the captain, provided that the authority of the captain, as granted by the ANO, is devolved to the cabin crew who may act upon their own initiative.

Make no mistake, if the CC consider ANYTHING may constitute a hazard to the aircraft, and that may include further provoking a drunken passenger, they are justified in taking such measures as they see fit to contain the situation and, as captain, I would back them up.

Remember: this is in an aircraft in flight; it is not in a bar.

I'd appreciate Flying Lawyer's comment.

[RAT 5]

Make no mistake, if the CC consider ANYTHING may constitute a hazard to the aircraft, and that may include further provoking a drunken passenger, they are justified in taking such measures as they see fit to contain the situation and, as captain, I would back them up.

Does that include feeling the fire of alcohol consumption? What do they hope; the pax will go to sleep before they explode? If taking social photos of you and your friends on holiday is acceptable, when does taking a photo become unacceptable. If a pax refuses to stop photographing and the airline tries a prosecution under ANO, claiming that the 1 year experienced Purser was using what they believed to be the wishes of the captain, I would not be surprised if the judge/magistrate was bemused. What do you expect to happen if said photographer was a journalist for a national major newspaper. Do you think they would cower meekly? I think it is not quite so black & white as some make out. How many seats away from the melee is antagonising the situation and how far away is not?
Where I live all buses have on board cameras. I don't know if they transmit live or record. Might a/c move to the same?

[Basil]

If a pax refuses to stop photographing and the airline tries a prosecution under ANO, claiming that the 1 year experienced Purser was using what they believed to be the wishes of the captain, I would not be surprised if the judge/magistrate was bemused.
Try it some time and establish legal precedent one way or the other; personally, I'd stop videoing.

[LlamaFarmer]

Would the company perhaps instruct their staff to ensure filming does not take place, for fear that it might let people know what it's like to fly Ryanair?! :rolleyes:


Seriously though, could it be a company instruction that crew should try to get people to stop filming (for any number of reasons) and that crew fear that if they do not then they will be disciplined or at least called up on it?

[Hotel Tango]

All reasonable instructions are backed up by the legal authority of the commander. If you fail to follow an instruction from the cabin crew, of which stop filming IS a reasonable instruction

Playing devil's advocate, what may constitute a reasonable instruction to you Victorc10 may well not do so to a member of the public. The problem lies with individual interpretations of the term "reasonable". For me this is a grey area in such circumstances.

[Rwy in Sight]

OK let's try a similar but slightly different situation and let's be honest with our answers: we are at a mall and we see some ladies that we like very much and it seems they are not bothered by us filming them (the drunken man on the clip was not showing any objection being filmed). A shopping centre security agent comes and asks us to stop taping. Leaving aside our image of caring and nice person and putting our full honestly hut who would stop filming and who would ignore the security guard?

[RAT 5]

Seriously though, could it be a company instruction that crew should try to get people to stop filming (for any number of reasons) and that crew fear that if they do not then they will be disciplined or at least called up on it?

If it is a company policy, and is a legal restriction of the freedom of pax, then it must be notified in the passenger announcements which already include such things as use of mobile phones & electronic devises etc. On all the various airlines I've flown on I've never heard such an announcement.
I would have thought that video evidence would be very helpful in bringing a prosecution after the event. Taking 188 pax statements + 4 C/A's would be very time consuming and could well lead to a confusing picture of the true events.

[Basil]

A shopping centre security agent comes and asks us to stop taping.
That depends upon whether the shopping centre is considered to be a private place or a public place. If private, then I believe that a representative of the owner may demand that you cease videoing.

That example is, of course, irrelevant to the present discussion.
It is not in an aircraft and the ANO does not apply.

[Stinsonist]

In the early glory days of cheap UK charter flights it was not unusual to have large groups of drunken idiots escorted on board by Gatwick police apparently because they were causing trouble in the Terminal! Once after a European Cup Final in Amsterdam we were 'ordered' to take a random 150 highly tanked-up and rioting Scotsman with us to Manchester (although they had mostly booked to Glasgow). We dumped them there in the early hours and they were left to find their own way north. More sadly and much later I backed up my Cabin crews' judgement and had a young man declined boarding because he was slurring his words badly and couldn't stand unaided. We were at risk of losing our slot ex LAX. I discovered subsequently he was highly medicated for a neurological illness and was forced to spend a couple of hours incarcerated before his relatives were able to contact him. Was close to a lawsuit in the US but my company was able to show he should not have tried to travel alone. Very glad I don't have to make decisions like that anymore. Retirement has many virtues.

[sitigeltfel]

Contrary to earlier reports, the groom was not among those thrown off at Berlin and he regrets the disruption his party caused...

Ryanair flight violence: Groom says stag do behaviour 'unacceptable' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35691977)

[Snyggapa]

A bit diversionary from the main problem here - which is humanity on a downward spiral - but the cabin crew, if the caption is correct said "don't take video please", which seems closer to a "polite request" than an order.

I guess from the crew point of view, it's a no win situation. I don't handle aggressive people, nor have I been trained to, but it may be that stopping someone filming is in some kind of comfort zone, whereas confronting the situation was likely to lead to conflict and out of the comfort zone - so it could be a subconscious decision to go with what you are familiar with to buy time. I don't know how the brain works and I won't criticise the crew action as I wasn't there and I doubt I would be able to handle it myself.

It is a shame that there isn't more video though, even to allow a crew post mortem of the events and to use for future training.

[SWBKCB]

I've not looked at the Ryanair statement but I'd bet a pint that it contains the phrase "the safety of our passengers is our first priority" or something very similar, because these sort of statements always do.

Always baffled me that airlines/airports always say this sort of thing when the whole industry is underpinned by flogging people cheap booze - how is safety promoted by encouraging people to take inflammable liquids in glass bottles onto aircraft.

Also, not picking on RYR in particular as this is nothing new - used to face the same issues as a dispatcher 35 years ago.

[Sillert,V.I.]

At what point do the provisions of the ANO come into effect? I'd guess it's the point when the aircraft starts to taxi under its own power.

So I'm thinking that if the CC want to remove a passenger before the aircraft leaves the gate (and certainly if they want to remove them from the transfer bus), they'd have to rely on the provisions of Section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872 (the offence of being drunk in a public place), rather than the provisions of the ANO.

That said, everything I've read so far about this incident suggests this should have been dealt with before they made it through the departure gate.

[ExXB]

For an international flight, i's from power on for takeoff until the end of the landing run.

It's the Tokyo Convention All crew should be aware of its terms.

http://www.un.org/en/sc/ctc/docs/conventions/Conv1.pdf

Domestic law applies before/after such times.

[racedo]

Drunkenness in aircraft
139.—(1) A person must not enter any aircraft when drunk, or be drunk in any aircraft.

Allowing the people to board in the first instance is against the ANO and as such I don't think Ryanair has a leg to stand on, Worse than this they have a legal duty to ensure the safety of the passengers and crew.. if this were the US there would be streams of court cases following this event. Of course its small beer ( forgive the pun) but again free publicity for Ryanair. the " caring airline"

So do tell me the training everyone will be given to spot drunkeness ?

My poor friend following a stroke slur his words, can be slightly unsteady on his feet if standing for to long, cann not drink because of health.

Now have been with him where had I not known better that he was drunk, been with him where a Police officer said exactly the same, until medical alert bracelet shown, Cop apologised and lets face it it was a town centre where drunks are common. So even with his training and experience people will make mistakes.

[racedo]

If people want to drink, they'll drink regardless of the cost onboard. A stag do won't arrive at an airport and think 'let's look at at the nice things to buy in the shop' or 'let's sit down for a nice green chai latte' knowing that there's cheap drink onboard. I doubt the onboard prices even crossed the minds of this lot. They drink at the airport because they want to get drunk and know there's very little chance of the airport turning down their request for drink.

Got it in one.

[racedo]

I do remember on a Monarch flight to Malaga from Man circa 20 years ago where about 12-15 on a stag do.

Flight circa 60% full. Group spread all round close to back of plane.

Guy in charge said to passengers around they on stag, apologised well in advance for behaviour and suggested that if they wanted to swap with others on stag so they all in one place.

Everybody did including gorgeous BA trainer that sat and chatted to me all flight and never asked for her number :ugh:

The stag party drank and a bit loud / leery but even FA said they ok and had 2 who were in control.

Spoke to one of stag group waiting for bags and said thanks, he looked on being in control for a couple of hours as better than all getting chucked off flight. He claimed the deal all agreed was 2 in charge were in charge and ensured they all got there.

Now airlines flying stag / hens the option I like is find someone in charge and make it clear before flight takes off that will deny all boarding or cancel all if have to divert.

On this specific flight I think 48 hours held in custody and then released is a good option as they miss everything.

FR is not only one that has issues with Stag/Hens as everybody has.

[racedo]

The fact is that it would not surprise me if the Cabin Crew themselves had been helping to fuel the issue, instead of refusing to sell alcohol.

This is all in the spirit of some of these Low Cost Airlines, sales strategy, not all CC has the sense to understand when enough is enough.

Drunkeness on flight is not a LCC issue, its an airline issue for all.

[Basil]

For an international flight, i's from power on for takeoff until the end of the landing run.
ExXB, The legal powers of the aircraft commander take effect from doors closed.

[Journey Man]

Bars selling alcohol 24/7 at the airport, bars selling alcohol 24/7 in the departure lounge, duty-free shops selling cut price alcohol in the departure lounge, cabin crew pushing alcohol-laden trolleys up and down the aisle during the flight.

Shock and outrage that some people get drunk.

Short of misting it throughout the plane via the air conditioning, I can't think of anything else they could do to get any more alcohol into the passengers.

The concept of personal responsibility needs to be taken into account. It could be free booze and they are still responsible for behaving like responsible members of society. Frankly, I'm appalled by your suggestion that these morons are somehow victims of circumstance and a weak will.

[Basil]

duty-free shops selling cut price alcohol
Probably get a better deal in a supermarket! :ok:

[Maxan_Murphy]

From the public point of view the era of romance has certainly left aviation for good. Aircraft and the personnel who fly them are sadly no more important these days than taxi drivers or bus drivers on the booze bus for the last lift home. Sad but true.

[Basil]

Aircraft and the personnel who fly them are sadly no more important these days than taxi drivers or bus drivers on the booze bus for the last lift home.
Often said but there is an enormous legal difference. Your taxi driver doesn't have the legal authority to tell you what to do; an aircraft commander does.

[LlamaFarmer]

I've not looked at the Ryanair statement but I'd bet a pint that it contains the phrase "the safety of our passengers is our first priority" or something very similar, because these sort of statements always do.


A Ryanair spokesman said the airline did not tolerate "unruly or disruptive behaviour at any time and the safety and comfort of our customers, crew and aircraft is our number one priority".


Maybe I'm just cynical but I highly doubt that any airline's true first priority is safety.

I would bet it is profit, and that for the most part they wouldn't care that much about safety if it wasn't so intrinsically linked by reputation to profit.



Also, Ryanair's statement of "not tolerating unruly or disruptive behaviour at any time" is clearly not true if the flight made it all the way to Germany... if they didn't tolerate it they'd have been denied boarding, or offloaded before departure

[Solar]

The bit on the BBC report that I suggest could be a cause for some concern as to what peoples priorities are these days is where the groom who accepts that his mates were wrong goes on to say that he is considering legal advice as it was wrongly reported in the German news that he was one of them which has caused distress to him and his family.
Maybe the disrupted passengers should consider legal advice against the stag party for the not inconsiderable distress they were subject to.

[Phileas Fogg]

In the days when I had my own offshore business and in the days when Latvian banks were offshore I had a few business/banking trips to/from Riga.

Riga was a RYR destination, now I wonder why I knew exactly what sort of 'sex tourists' to expect on a RYR flight to a 'sex tourist' destination and why I alternatively chose to fly to/from Riga with KLM.

These punters opt for the cheapest of the cheap to such 'sex tourist' destinations and "shock, horror" when other punters may become rowdy.

They got what they paid for!

[Orava]

Just an armchair passenger but I was wondering under what country's legislation are these cases handled? Country of origin, destination, registration or over where it happened or where it diverted to? For example, a divert to Riyadh for drunkenness would probably add a few extra slashes to the deal?

[crewmeal]

Meanwhile a new Gin 'distillery' opens at LGW.........

Gin distillery at Gatwick Airport means fancy cocktails before you fly | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2016/02/28/theres-a-gin-distillery-at-gatwick-airport-so-you-can-drink-fancy-cocktails-before-you-fly-5723173/)

Say no more!

[Basil]

Mother's Ruin seems to be enjoying a renaissance. (Warning! Aviation content) Another new gin on the market is Shetland Reel. It is produced in the former supplies building of what was, until 2006, RAF Saxa Vord in Shetland.

[vctenderness]

Can someone let me know which loco airlines serve 'cheap alcohol'? The ones I travel on wear a mask and a striped jersey when pushing the drinks trolly:sad:

[Phileas Fogg]

The one round trip I flew with RYR (only because they were the only airline to serve VST) the beer was warm and the sandwich was stale.

Who can blame punters for getting sh1tfaced in the terminal before boarding?

[Jwscud]

In the days when I had my own offshore business and in the days when Latvian banks were offshore I had a few business/banking trips to/from Riga.

Riga was a RYR destination, now I wonder why I knew exactly what sort of 'sex tourists' to expect on a RYR flight to a 'sex tourist' destination and why I alternatively chose to fly to/from Riga with KLM.

I think you'll find these days most pax are locals visiting family in the UK and vice versa.

Spain/Canaries are by far the worst in my experience. However, the thought of being nicked by either the French or Spanish police tends to sober people up fairly quickly when it is suggested they behave or else!

[Sober Lark]

the beer was warm and the sandwich was stale


Doesn't F & J produce obnoxious drunkards or is it just a reaction to the occasional bedbugs?

[Phileas Fogg]

Spain/Canaries are by far the worst in my experience

Many a year ago I was airline Ops and I found myself training up a new (ex Servisair) Ops Controller.

He and I hit it off straight away and I'll never forget his words "The cheaper the fare the worse the passenger".

That was oh so true, in the UK IT world Spain, particularly the 2hr rather than 2hr 30min flights, were the worst, Corfu, rather than the likes of Kos and Rhodes, was another 'lager lout' destination ... and as for the Channel Islands ... well!

Of course these days we have airlines offering fares for stupid amounts of money ... They are their own worst enemy.

[Mikehotel152]

It's certainly a case of the destination rather than the airline. Fly Ryanair to Carcassonne, Bergamo etc and you'll be surrounded by 'nice people'. Fly certain other destinations and the same might not be true, regardless of the name on the side of the plane.

[CHfour]

So do tell me the training everyone will be given to spot drunkeness ?

My poor friend following a stroke slur his words, can be slightly unsteady on his feet if standing for to long, cann not drink because of health.

Fair point but if there are 10 or 15 of them and they're dressed as tarts I think we can deduce which category they fall into

[Phileas Fogg]

Fair point but if there 10 or 15 of them and they're dressed as tarts I think we can deduce which category they fall into

Watch out ... Here comes another hen party:

http://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/lead_large.jpg

[RAT 5]

A friend of mine just retired from Jet Airways in India. He told me the crew had a breathalyser test before every 1st sector. In France you need to carry a disposable one in your car. So they are available. Pax checked at the gate???????

[gcal]

'A friend of mine just retired from Jet Airways in India. He told me the crew had a breathalyser test before every 1st sector. In France you need to carry a disposable one in your car. So they are available. Pax checked at the gate???????'

Oh please no.
It's bad enough having to endure a long flight.
A couple of glasses of wine or a brace of spirit measures are not going to tip the vast majority of people over the edge.
We already have enough regulation that is dumbed down to the pond life level as it is.

[Phileas Fogg]

In France you need to carry a disposable one in your car. So they are available

In France one needs to carry a warning triangle, in case of breakdown, and a fire extinguisher in one's car also ... One needs to draw the line between driving a car every day and flying on holiday once or twice each year.

[ExXB]

In France you need to carry a disposable one in your car. So they are available.

The implementation of that law has been suspended because the devices don't work.

[Gordomac]

Phileas : I agree with the destination/fare issue. I recall, Thursday night, Manch/ Gerona/ Manch, 18-30 club. Slept the nightmare off in the Excelsior. Friday saw me driving the 'Owners Abroad' lot to Funchal . Different universe.

[XSBaggage]

In my experience the issue is no longer with cabin crews serving passengers too much alcohol, or even airport bars serving people too much, but with people actually pouring their duty free alcohol into soft drinks bottles so their innocent looking Coca Cola was actually an extremely strong vodka and Coke. When you are at the stage where the airport cleaners or handling agents are having to follow passengers into toilets because they have (often justified) suspicions they are decanting alcohol from its original container then you have to wonder about the direction society is moving!

[RAT 5]

It was all a joke guys, but some bit.

[sitigeltfel]

In France one needs to carry a warning triangle, in case of breakdown, and a fire extinguisher in one's car also ...
Fire extinguisher not mandatory.

[wiggy]

In France one needs to carry a warning triangle, in case of breakdown, and a fire extinguisher in one's car also

Point of order/confusion - you don't need to carry a fire extinguisher in your car in France (you do in Belgium)....

(and FWIW ExXB is correct about the breathlysers )

[Herod]

Gin distillery at Gatwick Airport means fancy cocktails before you fly | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2016/02/28/theres-a-gin-distillery-at-gatwick-airport-so-you-can-drink-fancy-cocktails-before-you-fly-5723173/)

The only saving grace on this report is that the distillery and shop are airside.

[Basil]

Gordomac, See your 'Owners Abroad' and raise you a group of Swan Hellenic cruise pax going to join their ship. Awfully cultured; not a string vest in sight ;)

[Giorgio73]

SXF seems well off route to Bratislava. Looking at a google map I would have expected them to be closer to HHN than SXF, assuming a diversion into a RYR base would offer better & knowledgeable ground service: also a base captain to represent RYR's interests in any immediate action & follow-up.Looking at the flight tracks for this route for the past week on flightradar, it appears that the route crosses Germany some distance north of HHN. The aircraft was already some way past HHN when the diversion started (near Erfurt/Weimar), therefore diverting to HHN would have meant having to turn back. SXF is not too far off the planned route and did not involve having to turn back. The track shown on flightradar indicates they were probably a bit closer to SXF than to HHN anyway, and SXF itself is closer to Bratislava than HHN is. Also, there is a police presence at SXF (this may also be true for HHN, I simply don't know as I have never been there) and it is a RYR base.

I was wondering, in an incident like this which involves a diversion, at what point are pax informed (a) that a decision has been made to divert, and (b) where they are going to? I.e., would the announcement just say "right, that's it, we're diverting", and only tell pax where they are after landing?

[Krystal n chips]

" I agree with the destination/fare issue. I recall, Thursday night, Manch/ Gerona/ Manch, 18-30 club "

Ah yes, the clientele of a tour operator beginning with C and ending in s perhaps ?.

Had an encounter one night whilst spannering when this group decided it was "good fun" to start bouncing around on the seats, removing the tables, or trying to, and then decided to "play" with the seat attachments on the floor rails.

The two drivers were quite happy for me to go and "discuss" matters with said clientele as indeed I did...working on the "BS baffles brains" principle as theirs were now well and truly pickled.

One politely pointed out that, whilst in the air, the aircraft was the responsibility of the Captain, on the ground it was mine...and did the ringleader know how much a replacement seat cost?...and the labour charges for an engineer ?....and had he heard of the A.N.O at all ? oh, and by the way, a Spanish nick isn't that comfortable....finally, using ones well honed diplomatic skills, one advised him in "hushed tones" to shut his gob and added something about a pubescent little txxt by way of conclusion.

Silence and harmony ensued thereafter.

Basil will doubtless confirm the diplomacy of F/E's, which one never was, but G/E's have the same intrinsic traits......;)

[Basil]

Basil will doubtless confirm the diplomacy of F/E's, which one never was, but G/E's have the same intrinsic traits......
Concur! :E

Bas, ex marine eng.

[Nialler]

This whole thing concerns me.

I love a drink. I won't die sober.

Certainly not on a flight.

So I have a couple of wines before a flight. Before a Ryanair flight I'll have a last one and be the last on the flight.

Not delaying the thing, of course, just sure to be that last in the queue at the rear door.

I do regular stints. My latest normal one is the return between Charlerois and Edinburgh. I emphasise that I am a drunk - one who wears a suit.

Two wines get me through the flight, or maybe a large G&T.

Planes aren't great places to drink. I can if needed drink before, during and after a flight.

[Chronus]

This whole thing concerns me.

I love a drink. I won't die sober.

Certainly not on a flight.

So I have a couple of wines before a flight. Before a Ryanair flight I'll have a last one and be the last on the flight.

Not delaying the thing, of course, just sure to be that last in the queue at the rear door.

I do regular stints. My latest normal one is the return between Charlerois and Edinburgh. I emphasise that I am a drunk - one who wears a suit.

Two wines get me through the flight, or maybe a large G&T.

Planes aren't great places to drink. I can if needed drink before, during and after a flight.

Seems there is a compelling argument for drinking in order to fly, as flying is dangerous and those who have covenanted not to die unless inebriated must therefore ensure that they are totally sozzled when they are about to kiss goodbye to parts that are not normally accessible.

So I did a quick bit of googling about sobriety and aviation. This is what came up.

In the area of internal aerodynamics we concentrate on the flow of gases and liquids in confined spaces. In general cases, it is necessary to solve problems with medium compressibility, viscosity, turbulent behavior and other nonlinearities, which ranks the area to difficult subjects, not just to engineering applications. The aim of our optimization is usually to find a suitable channel shape for optimal gas flow, in order to meet defined requirements such as minimum pressure loss, maximizing the flow etc.

The above is a description of the services offered by Sobriety.

So now I understand why it is necessary to drink before, during and after flying and it is encouraging to find that something is being done about the difficulties it causes to the internals when it comes to drinking in the air.

Hic

[dsc810]

@Giorgio73

not exactly the same situation but.....
As reported to me by a passenger on the unfortunate flight some years ago the a/c took off without any luggage on board due to a "problem".
Strange to report the Captain omitted to inform the passengers of this essential detail until they were well into the flight.
(It was a ski charter flight type so the hold luggage containing ski clothing, boots, gloves, goggles etc some skis and snowboards....is indeed pretty vital to the whole objective of the holiday).

Pretty obviously the crew knew that there would be a mutiny amongst the passengers requiring a return to base if it became known earlier so elected to "withhold" the info until so to speak it was too late to do anything
(well apart from buy/hire stuff at the destination and then argue it out in court afterwards).