THE Eric Brown List

[Genghis the Engineer]

It can be found in several places - but to put it here, here's the list of types flown by Captain Eric Brown - a great many of them GA types.

None of us come close to being quite the great man that Captain Brown was, but it's a very interesting list by which to compare our own experience...


Aeronca Grasshopper
Aerospatiale Alouette
Aerospatiale Ecureuil
Aerospatiale Twin Squirrel
Agusta 109
Aichi Val
Airspeed Ambassador
Airspeed Envoy
Airspeed Horsa
Airspeed Oxford
Arado 96B
Arado 196A
Arado 199
Arado 232B
Arado 234B - Blitz
Arado 240
Armstrong Whitworth Albemarle
Armstrong Whitworth Whitley
Auster Aiglet
Avro Anson
Avro Athena
Avro Lancaster
Avro Lancastrian
Avro Lincoln
Avro Manchester
Avro Shackleton
Avro Tudor
Avro Tutor
Avro York
B.A. Swallow
BAe 125
BAe 146
BAe Hawk
BAC Lightning
Baynes Carrier Wing
Beagle B.206
Beagle Pup
Beech Baron
Beech Bonanza
Beech Super King Air
Beech Traveller
Beechcraft Expediter
Bell AH-1 Huey
Bell 47
Bell 204
Bell 222
Bell Airacobra
Bell Airacomet
Bell HTL-5
Bell Jet Ranger
Bell King Cobra
Bell Long Ranger
Blackburn Beverley
Blackburn Botha
Blackburn Buccaneer
Blackburn Firebrand
Blackburn Firecrest
Blackburn Roc
Blackburn Shark
Blackburn Skua
Blohm & Voss 138
Blohm & Voss 141B
Blohm & Voss 222 Wiking
Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress
Boeing B-29 Superfortress
Boeing Vertol Chinook
Boulton Paul Defiant
Boulton Paul P.108
Boulton Paul Sea Balliol
Brantly B-2
Breguet Alizé
Breguet Atlantic
Brewster Buffalo
Bristol Beaufighter
Bristol Beaufort
Bristol Blenheim
Bristol Bombay
Bristol Brigand
Bristol Britannia
Bristol Buckingham
Bristol Bulldog
Bristol Freighter
Bristol Sycamore
Britten-Norman Islander
Bücker Bestmann
Bücker Jungmann
Bücker Jungmeister
Bücker Student
Cant Z1007
Caproni Ca.309
Caproni Ca.311
Caproni Ca.135
Cessna 150
Cessna Cardinal
Cessna Skymaster
Cessna Skywagon
Chance-Vought Corsair
Chance-Vought Cutlass
Chilton D.W.1
Chrislea Ace
Comper Swift
Consolidated Catalina
Consolidated Liberator
Consolidated Vultee Privateer
Convair 240-5
Curtiss Commando
Curtiss Helldiver
Curtiss Kittyhawk
Curtiss Mohawk
Curtiss Seamew
Curtiss Tomahawk
Dassault Étendard
Dassault Mirage
Dassault Mystère
de Havilland 86B
de Havilland Beaver
de Havilland Chipmunk
de Havilland Comet
de Havilland Devon
de Havilland Don
de Havilland Flamingo
de Havilland Fox Moth
de Havilland Gipsy Moth
de Havilland Heron
de Havilland Hornet Moth
de Havilland Mosquito
de Havilland Otter
de Havilland Puss Moth
de Havilland Rapide
de Havilland Sea Hornet
de Havilland Sea Mosquito
de Havilland Sea Vampire
de Havilland Sea Venom
de Havilland Sea Vixen
de Havilland Swallow
de Havilland Tiger Moth
de Havilland Vampire
Dewoitine 520
DFS 230
DFS Kranich
DFS Weihe
Dornier 17
Dornier 18
Dornier 24
Dornier 26
Dornier 27
Dornier 217
Dornier 335 - Pfeil
Douglas Boston
Douglas Dakota
Douglas Dauntless
Douglas Devastator
Douglas Invader
Douglas Skymaster
Douglas Skyknight
Douglas Skyraider
Druine Turbulent
Elliot Newbury Eon
Embraer Bandeirante
English Electric Canberra
Enstrom F28
Enstrom Shark
Erco Ercoupe
Fairchild Argus
Fairchild Cornell
Fairchild XNQ-1
Fairey IIIF
Fairey Albacore
Fairey Barracuda
Fairey Battle
Fairey Firefly
Fairey Fulmar
Fairey Gannet
Fairey Gordon
Fairey Primer
Fairey Spearfish
Fairey Swordfish
Fiat B.R.20
Fiat C.32
Fiat C.42
Fiat G.50
Fieseler Storch
Focke-Wulf 189 - Uhu
Focke-Wulf 190
Focke-Wulf 200 - Condor
Focke-Wulf 58 Weihe
Focke-Wulf Ta.152
Focke-Wulf Ta.154 - Moskito
Folland 43/37
Fouga Magister
Fournier Milan
General Aircraft Cygnet
General Aircraft Hamilcar
General Aircraft Hotspur
General Aircraft L/56
Gloster E.28/39
Gloster Gauntlet
Gloster Gladiator
Gloster Javelin
Gloster Meteor
Gloster Sea Meteor
Gotha 244
Grumman Ag-Cat
Grumman Albatross
Grumman Avenger
Grumman Bearcat
Grumman Cougar
Grumman Goose
Grumman Guardian
Grumman Hellcat
Grumman Panther
Grumman Tigercat
Grumman Widgeon
Grumman Wildcat
Handley Page Gugnunc
Handley Page Halifax
Handley Page Hampden
Handley Page Hastings
Handley Page Hermes
Handley Page Marathon
Handley Page Sparrow
Hawker Fury - biplane
Hawker Hart
Hawker Hector
Hawker Henley
Hawker Hunter
Hawker Hurricane
Hawker Nimrod
Hawker Osprey
Hawker P.1040
Hawker P.1052
Hawker P.1127 - VTOL (yes what became Harrier/Sea Harrier)
Hawker Sea Fury
Hawker Sea Hawk
Hawker Siddeley 748
Hawker Siddeley Gnat
Hawker Tempest
Hawker Typhoon
Heinkel 111
Heinkel 115
Heinkel 162 - Volksjäger
Heinkel 177 - Greif
Heinkel 219 - Uhu
Henschel 123
Henschel 129
Heston Phoenix
Hiller HTE
Hitachi T.2
Horten IV
Hughes 300
Hughes 500
Hunting Percival Jet Provost
Hunting Percival Provost
Ilyushin 2 - Shturmovik
Ilyushin 4
Jodel Ambassadour
Jodel Club
Jodel Excellence
Jodel Grand Tourisme
Jodel Mascaret
Jodel Mousqetaire
Junkers 52
Junkers 86
Junkers 87 - Stuka
Junkers 188
Junkers 290
Junkers 352
Junkers 388
Kamov 26
Kawasaki Tony
Klemm 26
Klemm 35D
Klemm L25
Klemm L27
Lavochkin 7
Le Vier Cosmic Wind
Ling Temco Vought Crusader
Lockheed Constellation
Lockheed Electra
Lockheed Hercules
Lockheed Hudson
Lockheed Lightning
Lockheed Neptune
Lockheed Shooting Star
Lockheed Starfighter
Lockheed Ventura
Luton Minor
Macchi C.202
Macchi C.205
Martin Baker M.B.5
Martin Baltimore
Martin Marauder
MBB Bo 105
McDonnell Banshee
McDonnell Douglas Skyhawk
McDonnell Phantom II
Messerschmitt 108 - Taifun
Messerschmitt 109
Messerschmitt 110
Messerschmitt 163 - Komet
Messerschmitt 262
Messerschmitt 410 - Hornisse
MIG-3
MIG-15
Mil-1
Mil-2
Mil-4
Miles 18
Miles 20
Miles 28
Miles 38
Miles 48
Miles Aerovan
Miles Falcon
Miles Gemini
Miles Hawk
Miles Hobby
Miles Libellula
Miles Magister
Miles Martinet
Miles Master
Miles Mentor
Miles Mohawk
Miles Monarch
Miles Monitor
Miles Sparrowhawk
Mitsubishi Betty
Mitsubishi Dinah
Mitsubishi Zeke - Zero
Mooney M20
Morane-Saulnier 406
Morane-Saulnier Paris
Morane-Saulnier Rallye
Muntz Youngman-Baynes
N.S.F.K. S.G.38
Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate (Frank)
Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa (Oscar)
Nipper III
Noorduyn Norseman
Nord 262A
Nord Noralpha
Nord Pingouin
North American Harvard
North American Mitchell
North American Mustang
North American Sabre
North American Savage
North American Super Sabre
North American Texan
Northrop Gamma Commercial
Northrop Black Widow
Northrop F-5
Orlikan Meta Sokol
Percival Gull
Percival Pembroke
Percival Prentice
Percival Proctor
Percival Q6
Percival Vega Gull
Petlyakov PE-2
Piaggio P.136
Piaggio P.166
Piasecki Retriever
Piel Emeraude
Pilatus Porter
Piper Apache
Piper Aztec
Piper Comanche
Piper Cub
Piper Cub Special 90
Piper Grasshopper
Piper Navajo
Piper Pawnee
Piper Seneca
Piper Supercruiser
Piper Tripacer
Piper Cherokee
Pitts Special
Polikarpov I-15
Polikarpov I-16
Portsmouth Aerocar Major
Reggiane 2000
Reggiane 2001
Reid & Sigrist Desford
Republic Seabee
Republic Lancer
Republic Thunderbolt
Republic Thunderjet
Republic Thunderstreak
Robin Royale
Robinson R-22
Rollason Condor
Ryan Fireball
Saab 21
Saab 29
Saab 105
Saab Lansen
Saab Safir
Saunders-Roe P.531
Saunders-Roe Skeeter
Saunders-Roe S.R./A.1
Savoia Marchetti SM79 - Sparviero
Savoia Marchetti SM82
Savoia Marchetti SM95
Scheibe Motorspatz
Schmetz Olympia-Meise
Schneider Baby Grunau
Scottish Aviation Bulldog
Scottish Aviation Pioneer
Scottish Aviation Twin Pioneer
Short S.31
Short Sealand
Short Skyvan
Short Stirling
Short Sturgeon
SIAI-Marchetti S.F.260
Siebel Si 204
Sikorsky HRS
Sikorsky R-4B Hoverfly
Sikorsky R-6A Hoverfly II
Sikorsky S-58T
Sikorsky S-61
Sikorsky S-76
Sipa S.903
Slingsby Capstan
Slingsby Kirby Cadet
Slingsby Motor Tutor
Slingsby Prefect
Slingsby Swallow
Slingsby T.21
Slingsby T.31
Socata Diplomate
Stampe et Vertongen SV-4
Stearman Caydet - (sic)
Stinson Junior R
Stinson Reliant
Stinson Sentinel
Sud-Aviation Djinn
Supermarine Attacker
Supermarine S.24/37 DUMBO
Supermarine Scimitar
Supermarine Sea Otter
Supermarine Seafang
Supermarine Seafire
Supermarine Seagull
Supermarine Spiteful
Supermarine Spitfire
Supermarine Walrus
SZD Bocian
Taylorcraft Auster
Taylor J.T.1 Monoplane
Taylor J.T.2 Titch
Thruxton Jackaroo
Tipsy S.2
Tipsy Trainer
Tipsy Type B
Vertol 107
Vickers Valiant
Vickers Vanguard
Vickers VC10
Vickers Viking
Vickers Viscount
Vickers Warwick
Vickers Wellington (Wellington VI)
Vickers Windsor
Vought-Sikorsky Chesapeake
Vought-Sikorsky Kingfisher
Vultee Vengeance
Waco CG-3
Waco Hadrian
Westland Aérospatiale Gazelle
Westland Aerospatiale Lynx
Westland Lysander
Westland Sikorsky S-51 Dragonfly
Westland Sikorsky S-55 Whirlwind
Westland Wasp
Westland Welkin
Westland Wessex
Westland Whirlwind
Westland Wyvern (Eagle engine)
Winter Zaunkönig - Wren
Yakovlev-1
Yakovlev-9
Yakovlev-11
Youngman-Baynes High Lift
Zlin Akrobat




I think that I have 16 out of the 487 on that list. I'm actually rather proud of that slice of shared experience. But it puts my relative experience comfortably into perspective.

If I was to pick one I'd like to add (albeit probably never will), I think it would be the Meteor.

G

[flybymike]

He lived a long time but it seems incredible that any one individual could live long enough to have access to fly so many aircraft.

[WhiskeyPapa]

I have two planes he doesn't:
Yak 52 and Wilga!!!
Make that 3: Cessna 182 isn't on the list either.

[India Four Two]

It's a staggering list, including some I've never heard of.

G,

I was doing a mental count as I read the list. I didn't see your total until I came to the end, so I wasn't consciously competing with you. ;)

I've flown 19 of them. :ok:

I must re-read my copy of Wings on my Sleeve.

[Planemike]

Obviously a competent, no, make that accomplished rotary pilot as well......!!


What a list..........!!! The shear diversity of it is amazing Taylor Monoplane to a VC10........!!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Ha! Recounted - match you at 19!

Now here's a whimsical thought. Given that nobody is ever likely to either match his record, nor to ever add some of those types to their logbook - is it an interesting measure of a pilot's experience to ask their "Brown number".

The perfect score of 487 has only ever been achieved by one superlative aviator. Two of us here score 19. No types he hadn't flown count. I'd hazard a guess that a handful of people living are over 100.

There are worse ways to mark somebody's memory

G

[mikehallam]

Depends a bit on one's age and therefore access to some older types - as more recent a/c don't count.

On that basis I have an advantage, but not in hours flown & it's taken me 47 years to pilot ten from his list then only at the very light end. However all done at my expense - no contributions from aviation employment or the RAF, etc. !

I should imagine his achievement is several multiples more than anyone else could match, even if one includes all a/c.

mike hallam.

[modelman]

Just finished Wings on my Sleeve, his biography,highly recommended. Also worth noting is that for instance he only lists Spitfire,think he few around 16 Marks, sure this applies to a few other types. Must be one of the few pilots ( Allied and Axis) who went out of their way to fly the Me163 Komet,a spectacular but lethal (to the pilot in particular!). Incredible aviator.

[thing]

Interesting that four common as carrots a/c I've flown aren't on there, 152,172, 182 and Arrow. Mind you I suppose he was more of a miltary guy, and I doubt whether anyone will ever achieve that amazing number of aircraft again. He was national treasure. As ACW599 appositely said on the Mil Forum

How nice it would be if society understood the enormous difference between celebrity and attainment.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I should imagine his achievement is several multiples more than anyone else could match, even if one includes all a/c.

The late Darrol Stinton once told me that he'd stopped counting at 150, in the middle of his civilian test flying career. I doubt that Darrol was close to Eric's record - but think that he was probably over halfway.

I can't offhand think of anybody else likely to have come close - maybe some of the old guard ex-military FAA Test Pilots like James Plackis?

G

[Bronx]

Genghis the EngineerI think that I have 16 out of the 487 on that list.

Since he flew a whole lot of light airplanes as well as the more interesting types that don't mean much.
Many of us, like you, have flown lots of light airplanes in our time.


If I was to pick one I'd like to add (albeit probably never will), I think it would be the Meteor.
Have you ever flown any mil jet solo?

[Genghis the Engineer]

FTE and Flight test observer for trials on the Hunter, Hawk, Jaguar and Tucano, and a fair range of military transports, tankers and helicopters, mission scientist or instrument operator on some large research aircraft. Solo - no, never claimed to. All my PiC time is civil, and at the lightweight end - albeit encompassing a few fairly interesting types, two which were never certified, and half a dozen first flights on new built aeroplanes. Solo test flying a rebuilt Auster Aiglet, which hadn't flown for over a decade, which is on his list.

But, I'd still like to fly the Meteor - it fascinates me as an aeroplane. Getting through the training and doing it PiC would be great, but observer with a competent pilot on type in a T bird would be a pretty fascinating second best. As I don't work for, or with, Martin Baker - the odds of either are sadly about nil, but a man can dream.

Any particular point you were trying to prove there?

G

[Bronx]

A 'No' would have answered my query.


The thread is about types flown as pilot not types flown in as a passenger.
Any particular point you were trying to prove there?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Only that "pilot", "pilot in command", "crew" and "passenger" are four different things.

I've used "crew"; I'm pretty certain that EB used "pilot" - point accepted, if you want to make it. Nobody was mentioning passenger flying that I was aware of.

G

[DaveUnwin]

Fantastically long list, which includes some truly incredible aircraft. Much to my surprise, I seem to have soloed a WWII-era Luftwaffe type that Eric didn't!

[Flying Lawyer]

Genghis
I'm pretty certain that EB used "pilot".So am I.

- point accepted, if you want to make it.
Why would you want to fudge it?
Why post all that information about things you have done whilst travelling in aircraft being flown by a pilot or two pilots?

I've used crew.You didn't say that in your originating post when comparing your total with Eric's.
'Crew' is far too wide in the context of this thread.
Many military aircraft have crew other than pilots.
So, for example, do civilian SAR helicopters, police helicopters and EMS aircraft.

I assumed this thread was about types flown as P1 and/or as P2 in aircraft which require two pilots by civil or mil regulations.
ie Where the time is properly loggable as P1 or P2.

I think the reluctance so far of people to post the number of types they have flown is impressive.
They haven't resorted to what is sometimes referred to on PPRuNe as a "willy waving" contest.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Why would I want to fudge it FL? - because I've earned my living in a aircraft aeroplane in capacities other than pilot, and given the nature of the job, training, and reasons, I'm quite proud of that flying.

If anybody cares about my flying experience enough, as pilot (rather than FTE or MS) my score is 8. And I'd still love to have a Meteor in my logbook, in any capacity !

G

[Jetblu]

Well, if that is EB's conclusive list, I have 4 which he didn't have. :p

Lance II
Saratoga SP
Cessna 310
Cessna 421

[DaveUnwin]

Aren't the Lance and the Saratoga both PA-32s? If they are, that makes them essentially the same. Eric flew about 14 different marks of Spitfire, and from what I've read the early Merlin-powered ones are very different from a Griffon-powered Mk22.
His list just says 'Spitfire'.
Just sayin'.

[Jetblu]

Yes, you're right, they are both PA32's albeit different animals in their flying characteristics, which I'm quite sure is the same for various Spitfire variants.

[DaveUnwin]

Well, an early Spit has about 1000hp and weighs around 2,800kg all-up, whereas a Griffon-powered 24 has over 2000hp, weighs 4,500kg and the prop turns the other way - yet the list only says 'Spitfire' - that's my point.
And I'm guessing that the Saratoga and Lance aren't really that different, are they?

[Pontius]

Yeah, I'm waving my willy now (why can nobody see it?) :}

30 on his list (and even a few that aren't......but only a couple that are reasonably exciting) AND ex-RN too. We of the Senior Service must stick together :ok:

Please, someone, let me fly a Corsair (and I don't mean the jet one either).

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've always gone with the type certificate By which all PA28s are all the same type but the C150 and C152 are two different types. You win and lose, but it's a system.

Presumably EMwB was doing something similar given that he listed the Taylorcraft Auster and Auster Aiglet as two types, but all Spitfires as one.

G

[Flying Lawyer]

Genghis
is it an interesting measure of a pilot's experience to ask their "Brown number"
It would be one measure of a pilot's experience, but not a meaningful measure.

As mikehallam said earlier: Depends a bit on one's age and therefore access to some older types - as more recent a/c don't count.

There will be other factors.

eg Those of us who belonged to the Tiger Club in the 80s (and perhaps later) will have time in the Tiger Moth, various Jodels and Stampe SV.4. Those who didn't are less likely to have flown a Tiger Moth, and far less likely to have flown either the SV.4 or any model of Jodel - unless they have lived in France or Belgium.
Few people are likely to have flown the original Stampe et Vertongen SV.4 which Eric flew. Only about 30 were built before the company closed during WW2. Stampe et Renard renewed SV4 production after the war - as trainers for the Belgian Air Force - and others were built under licence in France by SNCAN. If I remember correctly, both the Tiger Club's Stampes were SNCAN aircraft.

eg Right place right time, friends who own and/or fly rare types.
I've been exceptionally lucky (for a PPL) in both those respects but it is not a meaningful indication of my experience as a pilot. I know people who've never flown anything other than s/e Pipers or Cessnas who have far greater experience as pilots than me.

[pax britanica]

Having read his fascinating book and articles about the recently defeated Luftwaffe types I have always thought he was a truly remarkable man..As to the sheer number of types flown well it was helped a lot by the time -are there anything close to 400 plus types in the whole world now or even over the last 20 years. Flying them is one thing surviving, as more than a few were reputedly real widow makers, given the exigences of wartime and test flying in those days is even more remarkable

Its an oft over used phrased but 100% true of this gentleman -We will not see his like again


PB

[mothminor]

There is a repeat of Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown story on BBC 2 at 1900, sure it will be on I player later.
J.J.

[flyinkiwi]

What a fascinating list!

I read somewhere his favourites were the dH Sea Hornet and NA F-86 Sabre.

[londonblue]

On another forum I frequent someone asked whether he was the greatest pilot the UK had ever produced. I pointed out that given that he has the record for the most types flown I would say there's an argument that he's the greatest pilot the world has ever produced.

There's 486 on the list earlier in this thread. I'm only 480 behind!

Cessna 150, 152, and 172
Piper PA38 and PA28
CAP 10b

I guess I've a long way to go. People like him are truly inspiring.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I keep seeing "one of the greatest", or "Britain's greatest" and absolutely agree.

I can think of one man only, whose contributions to aviation perhaps come close to Eric Brown's, and that's Neil Armstrong. But NA had a much shorter career, and put far less effort into sharing his lessons and experience.

So, "World's greatest, ever" sits very well with me as a description of Eric Brown - I really don't think it needs qualifiers.

G

[megan]

So, "World's greatest, ever" sits very well with me as a description of Eric BrownAnd originator of the worlds greatest myth aka the X-1 had to be modified to incorporate the M.52 tail in order to get through the barrier. Somewhat detracts from the memory of a great man and pilot. Came to the conclusion his myth came about from two countries being separated by a common language, to wit, what is a "flying tail". Winkle had one definition, the Americans another.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Come on Megan, a man who has achieved more for, and in, aviation than virtually anybody else has or will has died, and you are making an issue of a minor point of history about the design of two aircraft that the detail about, nowadays, is little more than a footnote. That is not "the world's greatest myth", that's a squabble between pedants, and given the circumstances - rude. That, whether you are right or wrong.

G

[megan]

a minor point of historyIt's not a minor point of history Genghis, it's a major point, and Captain Brown made a major point of it in his book on the M.52, and in his presentations. Any thing you see about the X-1 has the claim, based on his assertions. It's not a squabble between pedants, it's historical fact, and was a misrepresentation by Captain Brown, and the only reason I can imagine why is as I posted re two nations separated by a common language.

Perhaps you missed where I wrote "a great man and pilot". I recognise his contributions, but the accolade "greatest" is up for debate. Scott Crossfield, Neil Armstrong, and many others could be up for the vote, particularly those that gave their lives in the furtherance of researching the limits, such as George Welch, Carl Kincheloe and Milburn Apt.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The reasons for the design of the tailplane on one aircraft, however significant, is not a major point of history - in any case your opportunities to challenge him about it ended last week; as it was over his assertion that he saw Adolf Hitler shake Jessie Owen's hand, which also goes against what most historians say. This isn't the time or place.

I'd met Scott Crossfield, and followed the work of Neil Armstrong. Hard to say that either covered the breadth of Captain Brown's work, nor did as much to help the world learn from and use their experiences. They'd still be in the top 10 most significant test pilots in history however.

Seriously if you have an investigative point to make - do what I occasionally do: write a paper for Journal of Aeronautical History, and let it go for full peer review. It's an interesting experience, and when published, those papers matter. But criticising a great man a week after he'd died, when there was adequate opportunity to challenge him directly, strikes me as inappropriate.

G

[India Four Two]

G,

Just for fun, I've added my "Brown Number" to my location.

Without wishing to stir the pot too much, I have often wondered how many of Winkle's types were PIC?

If I had to only count types I had flown solo, my score of 19 would be significantly reduced.

Obviously, flights in things like the Komet and Spitfire were PIC, but I wonder about types like the B-17, B-29, Vanguard and VC-10, for example.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Certainly when I worked for MoD in flight test, test pilots assessing an aeroplane always logged P1, regardless of what seat they were in, and regardless of how many pilots were logging P1!

So, left and right hand seat, both TPs, both logging P1 - entirely in accordance with JSP318.

(For the avoidance of doubt, my military flying was either as a cadet pilot in a Bulldog, or a Flight Test Observer which is logged crew, but another column in the logbook altogether.)

G

[DaveUnwin]

"So, left and right hand seat, both TPs, both logging P1 - entirely in accordance with JSP318."

You'll have to pardon my ignorance, but to me that simply doesn't make sense. Were they both in command? If so that is extraordinarily bad practice, IMHO of course.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Only one was officially captain and making those "boss" decisions, both logged P1 for experience purposes.

Not unlike, I suppose, somebody passing a skill test in an SEP.


It's just how it was done.

G

[DaveUnwin]

Hmmm, seems a little bit like 'padding' ones logbook to me! Surely the aircraft commander/captain logs P1, and unless the other pilot is actually being tested, they're P2? I'm sure we'd all take a pretty dim view of such practices in the GA world.

Edited to add;- I've just discussed this with a very experienced aviator, and he said (and I quote) "if you were the aircraft commander you log P1, and if you logged the flight as P1 then you were the aircraft commander. ANYTHING else is nonsense, as the aircraft cannot have two commanders!"

[Genghis the Engineer]

You can go and tell the chaps at Boscombe Down that - I'm not. And for all I know it's changed in the last 20 years - but it was definitely the case in the 90s when I was flying out of there.

G

[Centaurus]

Hmmm, seems a little bit like 'padding' ones logbook to me!

Happens all the time in the civilian flying world. One reason is that once a pilot has passed his flying school private or commercial pilot's licence where strict records are kept of his flying hours during training and which may be audited by visiting CAA auditors, then very rarely is his log book audited again. It is the same with logging of instrument flight time.

During an initial instrument rating course at a flying school, there are specific minimum instrument hours required. At the completion of the course the CFI or equivalent stamps and certifies the log book of the candidate. Part of that certification includes cross referencing the hours logged by the pilot as against flying school records of his training. Once that pilot has left the training world into the real world of commercial flying, he can log what he likes and frequently gets away with it, because there are no more audits of his log book.

For example how can you audit instrument flight time claimed as in cloud? You cannot. Take the case of one captain who flew from Brisbane to Melbourne in a Boeing 737. Apart from initial take off until short final the flight was on autopilot and in gin clear fine weather.

On arrival Melbourne as his co-pilot was making out the trip record (which was subject to a standard CASA audit), the captain said "Oh! Put me down for three hours instrument flying time for instrument currency." The F/O astonished, replied "But we were never in IMC." "Do as you are told" replied the captain. He knew his cheating could never be proved.

Fake logging of instrument flight time, which includes logging of command time when clearly the pilot concerned was the support pilot only, is wide spread. But whichever way you regard it, it is blatant cheating and dishonest.

Earlier I mentioned it happening in the civilian world. I don't know about present day practices in the military, but during my 18 years of military flying, pilots were required to have their log books checked for accuracy every month and signed by a certifying officer. Every six months the pilot was required to submit a six-monthly flying return which was checked with his log book by internal audit. It was unheard of to log false hours.

In the airline world, it would be rare to see regulatory audit of log book claimed hours. For some pilots, logging of true co-pilot time is seen as degrading. Instead the situation often exists where a co-pilot is given a "leg" by the captain and logs that leg as in command under supervision rather than log it as co-pilot time in the co-pilot column. In command under supervision is regarded by some as superior quality flying hours versus mundane co-pilot hours. A trifle pathetic, don't you think? That said, each State regulatory authority may mandate how hours must be recorded in a pilot's log book.

[Genghis the Engineer]

On a more positive note - here's an idea I've expressed in a few places before, and I'll just put it up here for anybody to think about.

There are some truly amazing pilots who have had their last flight: Jeffrey Quill, Neil Armstrong, Douglas Bader - to name three of many.

Wouldn't it be great if somebody somewhere - ideally for a suitable charity - could obtain permission to publish facsimiles of some of these great pilots' logbooks.

Who wouldn't pay good money for the privilege of being able to curl up of an evening and browse through Eric Brown's logbook?

G

[DaveUnwin]

Exactly Centaurus. But what I find fascinating is that if two young hours-builders in a PA28 both logged the same flight as P1 there'd be (rightly) howls of outrage, yet for others this frankly fraudulent behaviour was officially sanctioned, or at least condoned. Curious, don't you think?

[megan]

Curious, don't you think?You need to remember that, like all of us, they have egos, and may be working on their own "Browns List", of one sort or another.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I suspect that it may also be borne in a certain amount of "them and us" between fast jet and truckie TPs.

G

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Most of 'My List' includes aircraft he never flew ... :)

The only other pilot I have known who had an impressive 'List' is George Ellis, former test and Shuttleworth Collection pilot.

KR

SITW :)

[megan]

Genghis, I did a search for JSP318 without any luck, so got to surmising "why would it be so?"

The only seemingly logical explanation I could think of was one P1 had done the full conversion to type, while the other P1 (TP) was there to carry out a particular test, and not full bottle on systems, emergencies etc. Each was bringing a set of skills to the task that the other didn't have in effect.

Plausible?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't actually know the history of the rule, nor do I have access to a copy of service flying regulations at present.

But, I think that there's various interpretations - truckie TPs being grumpy at only logging PiC half their flights as qualified TPs when the FJ TPs do on every flight, as you say it's quite likely that often one TP is i/c the aeroplane, whilst the other is i/c the testing (although when I was an FTE i/c the testing, I just logged FTO!). Or it may just be some historical view that TPs are skygods who are effectively PiC on every flight, so important is their role. Another possibility is that it's a deliberate compensation for the usually very low hours that most full-time TPs actually get to fly, compared to the hours they work. A colleague of mine recently estimated that he flies around 15% of the hours he's at work - compared to, say, an airline pilot where it's probably nearer 40-50% - although a fighter pilot is probably also down around the 15% figure.

My recollection of the rule (from nearly 20 years ago when I was last subject to a military Flying Order Book) is that it was worded along the lines of "when two qualified Test Pilots fly together for the purposes of assessing an aircraft, whilst the constituted captain will be entered as such in both pilots' logbooks, both shall log P1".

It's consistent(ish) with some other environments - the Space Shuttle never had pilot and co-pilot, it had commander and pilot, and for that matter the Army Air Corps operates the Lynx that way - both commander and pilot are qualified pilots, but their roles are different to what we might understand as PiC and FO in, say, the airline world. Another peculiarity might be the Nimrod, where sometimes the Captain was an AEO or Navigator, because of the mission role - but I'll bet that the chap sat front left still put the duty as P1 in his logbook.

I can't honestly say it troubles me - I solve it in my logbook by just having relabelled a column "test pilot", and keeping a separate tally of that. I can see why it troubles Dave - but equally I wonder when aviation journalists say fly for magazine write-ups, what column they put that flying in?, when there's usually a safety pilot who isn't an instructor - so an argument could be made that the journalist shouldn't be logging it at-all: but I'll bet they do. And, given that said aviation journalist is actively doing a job of work in that cockpit, using their particular skills, the moral argument that they should be logging it as something is strong, even if the legal argument isn't.

G

[DaveUnwin]

As with many things in aviation - it depends. Looking in my most recent logbook at some of the flight tests I've done over the last couple of years, the G-120TP, PC-21, P-51C, TBM900 and B-24 were all flown with instructors, so were logged as P2 . If its an SEP or LSA and the owner is just along for the ride and doesn't touch the controls I log it as P1.

[sycamore]

DU+GtE,just to clarify a bit or muddy de waters, RAF logbooks are different from the CAA one as we have P1,P2,Dual,Day and Night(same) ,total time and Captain time,columns,.Then there is the Authorisation Form,which will spell out the crew Composition,ie Captain/crew/pax,or manifest depending on aircraft,then the `signature block `signed by the Captain,and the Authorising Officer,unless the Captain can `self-authorise`(authority for that rests with `a higher Authority`....).
If one is `coverting to a new aircraft`(as a TP),there may not be a QHI/QFI available/current on type,so one flew with the `Project` current pilot,and logged time as P1(day or night) .One then flew maybe a sortie or two with another project Pilot,and then if that was satisfactory,`,became `Captain`. As a newly qualified TP at B-D,I flew with the late Peter Harper,who was one of the Sea-King project pilots; there was no availble Sim,ground-school was done at DSqdn,and in the hangar,with 2 new aircraft and a test programme to clear the aircraft for `initial release` to the RN at Culdrose. 4 sorties,all test work,1 test sortie with the other project pilot,and then Authorised as `Captain`,non self authorising for a couple of months.
The Captain was allowed to claim P1 and Captain time,I could claim P1 time ,for 4 sorties and `dual` for the`check` sortie with the other pilot ,even though he was not a QHI.All perfectly legal under MOD(PE) rules.
Also worth remembering is that every mil. pilot has his logbook checked monthly,and an annual/posting summary as well,and verified...by `a higher authority..!

[DaveUnwin]

Thanks Sycamore - that does clear things up.

[Genghis the Engineer]

It does , thanks

G