Lasers hitting light aircraft?

[foxmoth]

Following the Virgin turnback I was wondering how many light aircraft pilots have been targeted? At least in an airliner there is an additional pilot, the potential for disaster in a single pilot aircraft has to be even higher!

[Pace]

I had a laser attack at night flying into Leeds. It was in a Citation and had an FO but it is blinding.

We reported it to ATC for what its worth as finding the culprit would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

it was unpleasant and blinding for a few seconds although I wouldn't say incapacitating.

I am sure if you had a deposition to fits or some other unknown abnormality it could induce that condition which could be incapacitating

Pace

[dont overfil]

We had a laser attack over Dundee a few years back. Two pilots on board so one of us flew while the other with good local knowledge pinpointed the source. We were too high to identify a person but did identify a group on a street. It was reported to Dundee ATC and within minutes we could see blue lights homing in. However, the culprit could not be identified.


I don't know what can be done to prevent this happening other than publicising severe punishment for those that are caught.

[the_flying_cop]

Although not widely reported at the time, we were one of the first to get someone prosecuted for this offence.

It wasn't a laser, but this clown had rigged up a motorcycle headlamp to a series of batteries and was shining it at aircraft on final approach into egcc. We were able to bait him for a few minutes while we directed a dog handler to his back garden.

He was rather surprised to say the least when the dog nobbled him, and he was rewarded for his troubles with a decent stretch of porridge.

[Wings on the Winger]

Had it on base and final into EGBE on my first night solo. Not a pleasant experience but all ended well luckily. It had been NOTAM'd but even with a full report from me they never seemed to catch they guy, shame really as there were fellow students going up there for night flying during CPL training and it was becoming a big concern to some.

Annoys me everytime these laser strikes are report now having experienced it

[TelsBoy]

There are a few clowns up here who keep targetting the local CG and Helimed helicopters at night, a mate of mine has also had it happen to him a couple of times in an SEP and a Turboprop.

Apparently it's a new "craze" amongst some spotters (not the normal sensible harmless types) where they "tag" aircraft using these things. The mentality of some folk is highly questionable...

[xrayalpha]

I am interested in this, since I actually bought a laser marker. And sometimes use it from an airfield to point at the sky above my head, in which it is not unknown for Glasgow's aircraft to be flying over at 7,000ft when there is an easterly.

(Background was that on holiday in the Carribean, a chap used one to point out the constellations - gets rid of that parallax problem)

Now, if an aircraft is at 8,000ft - as in the case of the Virgin flight - and moving at 300 mph-ish, it is a pretty amazing thing to be able to "hit" the cockpit, let alone the window, let alone a pilot's eye?

Or am I missing something?

[Pace]

I don't know what can be done to prevent this happening other than publicising severe punishment for those that are caught.

I would say the chances of catching someone and actually proving it are very slim! Even locating one person in a city of people with a fix on an aircraft flying at high speed must be hit and miss
The only thing is to ban them other than the very weakest variety from sale to the public and license the use of more Powerful units

Pace

[P.Pilcher]

In reply to Xrayalpha, I thought the same thing. 8000 feet is not too much short of 2 statute miles, however further analysis of the BBC news indicates that the incident occurred shortly after takeoff and they must have continued the climb to the altitude stated while considering their situation (possibly with company ops on R/T as well) before making the decision to return to EGLL. Therefore they were zapped at about 2000 feet which is much more plausible.

P.P.

[foxmoth]

it was unpleasant and blinding for a few seconds although I wouldn't say incapacitating.


I think how incapacitating it is depends on the strength of the laser and i would think you would have no idea of the strength of the one you experienced. If it was one of the board pointers these are around 1mW, some of the stronger ones can be 40x that and more and are capable of bursting balloons and lighting matches at some distance so the difference in eye damage could be substantial!

[Flyingmac]

Got hit by one a year or so ago. Abeam York at 3,000ft. The source was at least a couple of miles away. They go for the nav lights/strobes/beacon. Might be prudent to turn them off if you see a beam anywhere near.


I'm wearing a flak jacket. Fire away.

[alexbrett]

I'm pretty sure I had one shined at me while on approach into Cambridge once - didn't hit either me or the instructor directly in the eye, but we both noticed a green flash go across some of the cockpit (my suspicion is it came from roughly abeam our port side, at a point we were luckily both focusing forwards either on the runway/PAPIs or the ASI or whatever)...

[Pace]

Saw in press today That the authorities will likely classify them as weapons

Pace

[phiggsbroadband]

Quote from xrayalpha.... Or am I missing something?


The chances that the beam will actually hit the iris for any length of time is remote. Most likely the beam illuminates local water droplets or imperfections on the Perspex.


It would appear that those aiming the l@sers think of an aircraft as an inanimate aluminium can. It is not widely reported that l@ser strikes on motor cars are happening, as even the worst numpty knows there is a human driving them, and so would not target any cars on a motorway.

[Maoraigh1]

On a night check-out, 12/2/2012, over Inverness, while demonstrating turns, the Instructor suddenly leaned forward, and seemed to be shining a green light on the roof. I assumed to check if I was distracted. His side was being hit by a laser from the Ferry area. Reported immediately to ATC, and police were waiting to get a report from him after landing.

[chevvron]

In reply to Xrayalpha, I thought the same thing. 8000 feet is not too much short of 2 statute miles, however further analysis of the BBC news indicates that the incident occurred shortly after takeoff and they must have continued the climb to the altitude stated while considering their situation (possibly with company ops on R/T as well) before making the decision to return to EGLL. Therefore they were zapped at about 2000 feet which is much more plausible.

P.P.

The aircraft was on a BCN departure from easterlies at Heathrow so it involved a right turn after departure to climb above the inbounds going downwind from OCK/BIG; the Daily Mail reckons the laser originated from the Woking area as they were passing about 8,000ft. From news reports, they continued the flight until over Ireland when, as the F/Os vision had still not returned to normal, the decision was made to return to Heathrow.

[LlamaFarmer]

I am interested in this, since I actually bought a laser marker. And sometimes use it from an airfield to point at the sky above my head, in which it is not unknown for Glasgow's aircraft to be flying over at 7,000ft when there is an easterly.

(Background was that on holiday in the Carribean, a chap used one to point out the constellations - gets rid of that parallax problem)

Now, if an aircraft is at 8,000ft - as in the case of the Virgin flight - and moving at 300 mph-ish, it is a pretty amazing thing to be able to "hit" the cockpit, let alone the window, let alone a pilot's eye?

Or am I missing something?


I don't know much about laser beam divergence, but I can assure you it is a big problem when you get hit.


It doesn't appear as a thin beam or point, if it hits the windscreen, EVERYTHING is blindingly bright green.

You can't see your instruments, you can't see out the windscreen or side windows, your eyes and head hurt, an intense pain, like staring at the sun.

And once it disappears, it can take seconds before you can see anything at all, and minutes before your vision returns to a satisfactory level. I had dark spots and bright spots in my eyes for hours, every time I blinked I could see bright flashes.


Fortunately I've only been targeted once, but it was truly horrible, I hope it never happens again, I fear it almost certainly will.





They need to change the law, make it an offence to be carrying one (without good reason), and make it a serious offence to actually target a person, and a much much more serious offence to target an aircraft.

An absolute minimum of 6 years in prison imo (which still only means 3 years really). And make examples of people when they get locked up for it.

[TelsBoy]

On a night check-out, 12/2/2012, over Inverness, while demonstrating turns, the Instructor suddenly leaned forward, and seemed to be shining a green light on the roof. I assumed to check if I was distracted. His side was being hit by a l@ser from the Ferry area. Reported immediately to ATC, and police were waiting to get a report from him after landing.

There are two certain areas in Inverness and a couple of others on the Black Isle where all "illumitation incidents" occur from. I suspect repeat offending individuals are at fault.

Police take a very dim view of it, problem is trying to find the culprit.

[JOE-FBS]

On my very first solo night flight piloting a light aircraft from Coventry in 2012 I got lasered. No harm done beyond a sore eye for a few hours but very unsettling. Trouble is, it is compelling, your eye sees something and turns to it before you can stop yourself.

[treadigraph]

It is not widely reported that l@ser strikes on motor cars are happening, as even the worst numpty knows there is a human driving them, and so would not target any cars on a motorway.

I got targeted with a laser pointer while walking home one evening a couple of years ago. It wasn't a problem for me at the time, but I started looking for the source which was a block of flats - the culprits obviously thought the better of trying it again, but I bet they'd been pointing it at passing cars as well.

[Pace]

There is only one way to deal with this and its to make these things illegal.

They are dangerous not just to aircraft but as you point out passing motorists where a slightly delayed reaction could cause death to other motorists or pedestrians

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

There is only one way to deal with this and its to make these things illegal.

They are dangerous not just to aircraft but as you point out passing motorists where a slightly delayed reaction could cause death to other motorists or pedestrians

Pace

I disagree.

Small or handheld visible wavelength lasers are used for all sorts of things - surveying, school experiments, teaching. I have a 5mW one in my desk (purple as it happens) which is hellishly useful when I'm talking through stuff on aircraft from the floor of the hangar.

People are killed or injured daily by kitchen knives and craft knives - but we don't ban them because they have reasonable and legitimate uses.


Detection and punishment matter and need to be done as aggressively as possible. Possibly, not unlike knives we need a "reasonable excuse" rule where above a certain power people need to justify why they have one. But an outright ban is neither in these days of internet shopping going to be effective, nor appropriate given the huge number of legitimate reasons to have a visual frequency laser.

G

[Pace]

G

But I guarantee if you go out into the streets carrying a kitchen knife you will be arrested!
Finding a guy who has targeted a fast moving jet is almost impossible! Proving it is even worse especially if the culprit denies it
Hence why a ban Is the only way your knifes are a good example they should be limited to school or business use and not taken out into the street.

Pace

[LlamaFarmer]

People are killed or injured daily by kitchen knives and craft knives - but we don't ban them because they have reasonable and legitimate uses.

But they ARE classed as offensive weapons.


Which means to have one in public without good reason (e.g. a chef taking knives to/from work) is an offence.


It also means police have greater powers to stop and search, which will lead to more prosecutions for lasers targeting aircraft.

[Pace]

I don't know much about them other than being blinded on approach to Leeds
Surely the other option is to limit their power to the minimum for purpose which maybe lower than current ones sold over the counter ?
I read there are some very powerful units sold on the net ?

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think we're arguing semantics here.

Used in the wrong way - either a knife or a laser pointer is an offensive weapon, and the person doing so is a criminal.

Neither need an absolute ban - which is what you appeared to be advocating Pace, just control and appropriate investigation and punishment for misuse.

G

[OpenCirrus619]

There is a place for the 5mw pointer...but I can't imagine why anyone needs something like: 6000mw-450nm-beam-light-blue-superhigh-power-laser-pointer-pen-kit-golden-p-1819.html (http://www.laserpointerpro.com/6000mw-450nm-beam-light-blue-superhigh-power-laser-pointer-pen-kit-golden-p-1819.html)

The advert includes:

Emit 6000mW high power laser beam full of energy
You can use it to light a cigarette or paper by adjusting its focusing


OC619

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't really want to post links, but if you google a bit you'll find websites and youtube videos from people whose hobby is making functioning laser guns !

G

[Pace]

Can someone explain why anyone would want to spend £260 for such a powerful laser where they advertise its so powerful that you can start a fire with it and then say Hurry buy yours now.

what sensible use could there be for such a devise to be sold openly to any 14 year old with the cash or for that matter to anyone without malicious intent?

I am far from an expert on these devices and their practical use so maybe someone can explain what the above advertised device would need to be so powerful for ?

Pace

[abgd]

I haven't any use for a 1W laser pointer at present, but I'm sure there are legitimate hobby/industrial/home inventor uses and as a general observation, it's sad that it's becoming increasingly difficult to access cool stuff. My generation was probably the last where every self-respecting nerd made explosions at home, most of which we survived. No wonder STEM skills are in shortage when nobody will send sell you fun stuff and they won't demonstrate the thermite reaction at school because it's too dangerous.

I'd agree with Genghis: perhaps wielding a 1W laser pointer in the town centre should be made to be a crime, and perhaps you could ban battery powered ones limiting miscreants to those with the ability to solder.

In practical terms, I wonder how small and light you could make a standalone device to triangulate back to locate the source of laser attacks? GPS and a CMOS sensor; no need for certification (because standalone). It could be done, though I suspect it won't be.

[DeltaV]

I don't really have a need for one of these laser pointer thingies but I'd like a light sabre. It'd be great for trimming the hedge.

[BEagle]

I have a Logitech 'presenter' which is a combined 'mouse' and <1mW laser pointer. Perfect for giving PowerPoint presentations to large audiences....

Although it was, back when most venues used projection screens. But with the advent of massive flat screens, the light spot from the 'presenter' often cannot be seen. A colleague in Germany reckons that he has to use a more powerful green laser for such purposes - 5mW?.

But selling very high power devices without any restriction is plain daft - and clearly dangerous, given the likely end-user... At least when President Obama signed the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012, he made it a federal crime to shine a laser beam at or in the flight path of aircraft — punishable by up to $250,000 in fines and five years imprisonment enjoying being Bubba's new bitch....:eek:

By all means have legislation in place for devices over a certain power limit, including restrictions on sale and use, carriage without good reason etc. But the humble <1mW laser presenter shouldn't be subject to the same restriction.

(And yes, cats have been known to chase low-powered laser light spots.... ;) )

[fujii]

Why is it being spelt l@ser? Afterall we don't use r@d@r.

[foxmoth]

For some reason it seems to autocorrect to replace the a, not sure why??

[Genghis the Engineer]

It's been thus for years.

The logic is that if the "L word" never appears on PPrune, it should also never see any magnetically attracted Google / etc. adverts for these devices. Thus at no point can some scrote's solicitor say in court "But m'lord, my client bought this through an advert on a well known pilot's website, so had every reason to believe that it was a perfectly safe aviation accessory".

G

[fujii]

Thanks Ghengis, the w@nkers are winning.

[Noah Zark.]

It's a pity there isn't some kind of miniature la$er guided weapons available for commercial aircraft to fire straight down the la$er beam to eradicate the moronic cretins who are perpetrating these acts.
After all, la$er designators are used by the military. I wouldn't think it would matter which way the beam was actually going, i.e. down, in the military sense, or up, in the cretin's sense.
That would solve the problem.

[Pace]

See today a report on attacks on police Helicopters with a a night picture of four thugs on a housing block pointing the laser. They don't look intelligent enough to even know what a blackboard is

The article is claiming that attacks on night surveillance police helicopters is becoming a regular occurrence.

At least with the equipment they carry there is more chance of pinpointing the culprits than an attack on a high speed jet but still think the chances of bringing successful prosecutions are very small unless the vandals are standing outside their own flat!

Even then the pictures are not that clear to make an individual identification hence why a legal restriction on their sale might be the only way

NB cannot get the word Laser without the @

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

Light Amplification by the Stimulated Emission of Radiation .

There you go - write it in full and you're fine.

G

[TelsBoy]

I agree with comments questioning the need for a market for higher-powered devices. Surely these require some sort of regulation/restriction, like other potentially dangerous things such as airguns.

The only way to solve the problem is rigorous restriction on supply on these devices and severe punishments for those who misuse them.

[squidie]

@pace There is one suspect in Horsforth that is still on the run and has lasered a number of schedules and our GA aircraft at night. Don’t believe they’ve been caught yet.

[The_Pink_Panther]

Got zapped repeatedly on the climb out one evening from Oxford last year.

[Stitchbitch]

If you're concerned about civilian laser threats and are looking for some kind of eye protection then search for 'dazzle' specs, Gentex makes them. :ok:

Mods please remove if you feel it's warranted.

[thing]

Is there any risk from these things during daylight? Mind you the perp probably can't see the beam, correct?

[abgd]

Your pupil is likely to be smaller in the day e.g. if it expands from 2 to 6mm from day to night, you'll let 9 times more light in at night... So your laser has to be an order of magnitude brighter in the day in order to pose the same danger as a laser used at night.

[piperboy84]

I suspect it will take some politically ambitious young American prosecutor to start the rollback of morons using these lasors to interfere with aircraft. I can imagine if just one person could be caught using them then the usual US method of prosecution would be rolled out I.e. Federal and/or state charges of attempted murder, attempted murder while using a dangerous weapon , interfering with a commercial flight, interference with interstate commerce then throw in a few anti terrorism statutes and with a bit luck the perp is a 3 striker, add all the charges up to a potential sentence of perhaps 120 years to life in prison then offer a plea bargain down to 50 years. Off to the peneteniary with lots of media coverage similar to what the Feds do with tax dodging celebrities one week before your returns are due and this should get the word out that messing with aircraft using lasors is a bad idea.

[Maoraigh1]

There have been US prosecutions. And UK ones.. No deterrent. These guys never hear about them, and the risk of being caught is so low

[300hrWannaB]

I got zapped once whilst driving my car, on a very busy motorway (M42) at rush hour. I'm normally a calm driver, but this instance had the immediate effect of making me furious.
The guilty party were a bunch of youffs looking like they were returning from holiday (Birmingham Airport was really close). They targeted my rear view mirror and there was very little I could do to shake them off. They were in the car immediately behind me.

I don't like the idea of trying to fly whilst being targeted.