QF recall leave without pay pilots [Archive]

StudentInDebt

10th Feb 2016, 04:35

Geeez you boys are drinking the cool aid.
A dead end for junior FOs at JQ?
How about 20 years to be a junior A380 FO at qantas. Just because the promotion timelines at QANTAS are significantly longer doesn't detract from the point Iron Bar was making, Jetstar Australia is a demographically young company with limited future expansion prospects. Without a significant external event to churn the seniority list anyone in the bottom 1/3 of the list will be waiting a long time for a command or move to wide-body as the only promotion prospects will come from retirements or resignations.

Iron Bar

10th Feb 2016, 04:55

Oh Gob'

The orange expansion is over and the demographics of a relatively young group of Captains means that for a junior FO, (disregarding SO, there won't be many) lots of repetitive four sector days and back of the clock for a long time. When was the last FSO for command positions? How many pilots sitting on the "CUSP"? (CUSP is the JQ command training prep program)

Yes it has been a poor period for promotion at QF, hmmm I wonder why? But again, look at the ageing demographic and "proposed" expansion. Considering income, lifestyle and career potential, I know where I'd rather be.

bdcr,

No, I don't speak for anyone. But just "quietly" (touché) there are more than one or two who were pressured into extending their tenure 18 months ago, and they have had "quite enough".

Lookleft

10th Feb 2016, 10:20

Who were they pressured by? Most LWOP would have extended 18 months ago to wait until the QF waters were a little less muddy. I have no doubt most of them will go back but I think they will wait for as long as possible in the hope of going back to the RHS. I'm also fairly certain that with all the LWOP going back that there won't be a mass recruitment from JQ except if you are of a certain gender.

Iron Bar

10th Feb 2016, 20:31

At that time JQ aircrew allocations (and flight ops industrial policy) were managed in shall we say a fairly unique way. They didn't want to create an unnecessary training headache buy loosing pilots so, they ran the "return to QF and you will be made redundant" line at them. I am told they were also lured with the prospect of wide body FO positions, but that didn't happen, don't know why.

One of the quirks of LWOP from QF is that it appears you can't be made redundant whilst on LWOP. (This was never tested) Bearing in mind that many (majority?) of the LWOP FO's are the most junior pilots in QF and at that time with the huge manufactured loss at QF, the prospect of being made redundant was very real. So they stayed, fair enough.

I hasten to add it's not as if these guys are living off food stamps. There are many outside the airline who would love to be in that position, so it's all relative.

From what I hear most will be happy to go back to a cruisy and more lucrative SO position. They have seen plenty of four sector days as 320 FO's. But I think the overriding desire is just to come back regardless.

Will be interesting to see how recruitment of JQ pilots goes. Perhaps the relationships between management will have an influence. But you can be sure there will be a large number of applications and they all have to be considered equally on their merits ......

The Green Goblin

10th Feb 2016, 22:47

Iron bar, you really remind me of a certain trouble maker who was an MOU pilot.

JQ never forced anybody to stay. The guys were very lucky to be able to have the best of both worlds. They will go back to QF all the better for the experience. Some will choose to stay, others will choose to go back. Whatever is best for them. Just like many MOU captains stayed. Many are going back. That's life.

There's at least 100 Qantas pilots at Jetstar. Even if only half go back, that's still about 6% of the pilot group. They will need replacing and the company is already very short of crew with most bases flying 90+ stick per month.

So just in MOU commands retuning to Jetstar that's going to create a fair bit of movement when the company can afford to release wide body FOs to train as narrowbody captains. That in turn will create plenty of subsequent upward movement.

When the floodgates open JQ will take a lot of crew. It will be pretty soon and they will probably overcrew and grow into it like last time.

Iron Bar

11th Feb 2016, 00:13

Haha, trouble making MOU pilot at Jetstar eh. Which one? I believe there were several!!! If by trouble making you mean not tolerating incessant trumped up rubbish from Jetstar, well it's a different airline culture you see. Q pilots don't need to sail with the boat club.

Anyway back on topic.

Surprisingly, I agree with you. Boys had a choice, all be it influenced by Matt and they will be better for the time at JQ. However, I can't see many of the LWOP FO's staying.

As far as recruitment and training goes, we will see. I don't share your optimism.

IsDon

11th Feb 2016, 00:37

ExtraShot

11th Feb 2016, 00:47

I have no doubt most of them will go back but I think they will wait for as long as possible in the hope of going back to the RHS

I'm sure most would like to slide right into the corresponding seat on the 737 but, (from my source), its certainly not a deal breaker.

Coming back to spend another 18 months or so in the back seat, flying far more relaxing rosters for significantly more pay seems by no means a turn off.

They also want to be in the QF fold when their seniority comes up for that RHS, which for some of them could happen this year or next. A lot can happen to QF's current good fortune between now and then, and you'd kick yourself if you had the chance to come back and didn't.

Iron Bar

11th Feb 2016, 01:04

G'day Don

I doubt you will find that policy in writing or anyone in QF who will confirm it. But I can probably think of more Qlink pilots who went to Cathy than Qantas.

If and when QF start to recruit, there will be opportunities for all.

Gen. Anaesthetic

11th Feb 2016, 02:41

IsDon

11th Feb 2016, 03:08

Iron Bar, IsDon

The reason you won't find it written as policy is that it is completely and utterly against the law to restrict movement of employees within a business when vacancies exist and those employees meet the requirements for those roles. The reason it might happen in practice is because it is usually difficult to prove that any sort of collusion is at play, but employers do have to be very careful of this.

That may well be the case. I've heard same from other sources, but I'm not yet convinced that the law you speak of is indeed law, as opposed to just an idle opinion. If you have a reference I'd be happy to hear it.

Even if it were the law, as you do emphatically state, it would be impossible to prove given the volume of applicants Qantas will have to choose from.

They've done it in the past, I'm certain they'll do it in the future, but of course will deny all knowledge.

Iron Bar

11th Feb 2016, 04:24

Fair Work Act will cover it.

https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2014C00031

Lookleft

11th Feb 2016, 05:35

IB you would know better than most that until a law is tested it is just words in a book. If QF take a few JQ pilots then they cannot be accused of discrimination. Think of the 'dirty dozen" from '90 when everyone could reapply for their jobs. I think its also illegal for petroleum companies to collude on petrol prices. Tell me that's not happening.

Ultergra

11th Feb 2016, 07:00

Lookleft,

Do you also think man didn't land on the moon?

IsDon

11th Feb 2016, 07:48

Fair Work Act will cover it.

https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2014C00031

Yeah, just attaching the FWA won't convince me I'm afraid. If it says in there, somewhere, that an employer is breaking the law by not employing JQ pilots then you'll need to convince me.

Page number would suffice.

roundsounds

11th Feb 2016, 07:59

IsDon, "given the volume of applicants Qantas will have to choose from."
I think there will be a few disappointed / surprised souls once any applications are received. I'm thinking that given the state of GA, the flying training industry, the nature of the current generation there will not be the flood of suitable applicants the airlines are anticipating.

*Lancer*

11th Feb 2016, 08:58

Discrimination on the basis of race, colour, sex, sexual orientation, age, physical or mental disability, marital status, family or carer responsibilities, pregnancy, religion, etc is illegal.

Nothing about work history.

Iron Bar

11th Feb 2016, 10:19

OK, Lancer/Don (since you can't find it yourself)

From the Act, my bolding and underline:

FWA

Division 3—Workplace rights 340 Protection

(1) A person must not take adverse action against another person: (a) because the other person:
(i) has a workplace right; or
(ii) has, or has not, exercised a workplace right; or
(iii) proposes or proposes not to, or has at any time proposed or proposed not to, exercise a workplace right; or
(b) to prevent the exercise of a workplace right by the other person.

Prospective employees taken to have workplace rights
(3) A prospective employee is taken to have the workplace rights he or she would have if he or she were employed in the prospective employment by the prospective employer.

342 Meaning of adverse action
(1) The following table sets out circumstances in which a person takes
adverse action against another person.
Meaning of adverse action Item Column 1
Adverse action is taken by ...
1 an employer against an
employee

2 a prospective employer against a prospective
employee

Column 2
if ...
the employer:
(a) dismisses the employee; or
(b) injures the employee in his or her employment; or
(c) alters the position of the employee to the employee’s prejudice;; or
(d) discriminates between the employee and other employees of the employer.

So, without looking into case law or precedent and there would be some, this is the answer from the Act. Qantas cannot openly discriminate against Group employees. If they could it would be reflected in their prerequisites, i.e. cannot be currently employed by JQ, Qlink and so on. Thats the law, but as Lookleft points out, enforcing it and proving a contravention it is another thing.

However, the simplest answer is from the Qantas Group Code of Conduct. It is very specific about treating all group employees fairly and applies to JQ, QF, Qlink and EFA. Doesn't need a Court application, a letter to the company secretary will do.

Di_Vosh

11th Feb 2016, 10:24

QF Policy in the past was to not recruit from its own subsidiaries. (i.e. QLink at the time).

Given it has an obligation to take back pilots on LWOP, and also an obligation (albeit a different and maybe more moral one) to take industry placement cadets from QLink with the cost, schedule disruption etc associated with training their replacements, I think it would be very unlikely to see QF add further to its crewing problems by recruiting any more pilots from JQ or QLink than it is obligated to. Why would you?

Interesting times, but if I were at JQ right now, (and not in an MOU) I'd be concentrating on making the most of my career at JQ as I'm very very unlikely to find myself at QF.

At Qlink we've heard similar ever since I started there in 2008. We even heard back then "If you want to join Qantas, start at Rex, because if you start at the link you'll never get in."

In 2007/2008, Qlink had a 40% turnover of it's pilot group. Mainline didn't want them, so some went to J* (not sure how a group company poaching from the link creates any less training debt than if they go into mainline). Most of the rest went to Virgin, Cathay, and Dragonair.

Dragonair and Virgin were rumoured to have stated that Qlink was the best training department for their pilots; at the same time mainline were rumoured to say that TP pilots couldn't mentally transition to jets.

Fast-forward to last year where Qlink lost 40 pilots to Cathay. This year 12 (and counting) to Emirates, with up to 20 more rumoured to go to Cathay. Add a few here and there to Virgin, EFA, and one or two other airlines.

Word on the street is that someone in Qantas HR has (finally) realised that it's better to recruit from within the subsidiaries because 1: They are already a known quantity, with accessible training/personnel records; 2: While there is an extra training debt if we don't hire them they'll go somewhere else. This will result in the same "extra" training debt and we've just lost that corporate experience; 3: If they know that there is a pathway into mainline they MIGHT not look elsewhere.

DIVOSH!

Di_Vosh

11th Feb 2016, 10:35

Re: Iron Bar vs: IsDon and *Lancer*

What happens, what can be proven to happen, and arrangements conducted behind closed doors are three very different things.

More rumours from Qlink in 2007/2008:

J* was recruiting and plenty from Qlink were applying. The then CP of Qlink was concerned about the flow of Qlink pilots to J* and appealed to Qantas to stop employing Qlink pilots at J*, as it was contributing to our crew shortages.

There was no way that Qantas was going to threaten the success/growth of J* and the CP was told "bad luck".

But...

They worked out an arrangement where J* told the Qlink management who had been successful, and Qlink management then asked if certain pilots (such as Captains, Training captains, etc.) could be given later start dates and that other pilots (FO's, "trouble makers", etc) could be given earlier start dates.

This also backfired as many of the people who'd been given later start dates got start dates with Virgin in the meantime and went there, again resulting in loss of group corporate knowledge.

Again, rumours only but...

DIVOSH!

dr dre

11th Feb 2016, 10:44

In 2007/2008, Qlink had a 40% turnover of it's pilot group. Mainline didn't want them, so some went to J* (not sure how a group company poaching from the link creates any less training debt than if they go into mainline). Most of the rest went to Virgin, Cathay, and Dragonair.

Dragonair and Virgin were rumoured to have stated that Qlink was the best training department for their pilots; at the same time mainline were rumoured to say that TP pilots couldn't mentally transition to jets.
DIVOSH!

Huh?
Heaps of ex QLink -300/Q400 guys and gals employed into mainline in '07 and '08.

In fact I'd say the majority of those employed around the same time were coming straight off turboprops of various kinds.

Di_Vosh

11th Feb 2016, 11:19

Dr dre

AFAIK almost all of them were Qantas cadets at Qlink. There was a pathway into mainline for Qlink guys, but I doubt more than five or so went before mainline stopped recruiting.

DIVOSH!

Keg

11th Feb 2016, 12:14

......at the same time mainline were rumoured to say that TP pilots couldn't mentally transition to jets.

I've only heard that once.......in about '97 rather than 2007. The manager who made the comment was a ********.

i suspect that Qantas are fully aware that if they don't consider those from their own subsidiaries then they're likely to lose those people anyway. We have very different managers now compared to 2007- we are two Chief Pilots further on and a complete overhaul of the Flight Ops structure.

Whilst they still take riding instructions from above, I think they know that not taking our own is cutting off our nose to spite our face.

haughtney1

11th Feb 2016, 12:41

uspect that Qantas are fully aware that if they don't consider those from their own subsidiaries then they're likely to lose those people anyway. We have very different managers now compared to 2007- we are two Chief Pilots further on and a complete overhaul of the Flight Ops structure.

Whilst they still take riding instructions from above, I think they know that not taking our own is cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Keg, the last flight I did was with an ex Qlink Q400 guy, he was of the opposite opinion to yours. Irrespective of perception, his reality was different.

zanthrus

11th Feb 2016, 14:13

What a bunch of wankers the Q group is. At war with itself, no wonder the competitors are doing so well. If they worked together Q, J, and QL then they would be a much stronger and cohesive group.

Troo believer

11th Feb 2016, 20:27

Thank God that the infantile bias that existed within Qantas Flt Ops has all but disappeared. Once any pilot has been minced through the training department the difference is purely individual and not correlated in any way due to their background. There is a generational change at QF and with that I for one of many will be very happy to see some new eager pilots no matter their previous experience. Your first operational seat will be on the 737, where the training is excellent. No one within the training section cares from where you came.

Keg

11th Feb 2016, 21:25

G'day Haugteny. When are we talking about here? When did your fellow crew member leave QLink? We haven't employed since January 2009 so it's hard to say that mainline flight ops have something against the Link crew.

Perhaps they were still avoiding hiring Link crew in the 2000's (although I seem to fly with quite a few ex Link crew) but the rumoured attitude proffered by Di Vosh regarding the transition of prop drivers to jets isn't something that was prevalent in 2007.

In terms of our hiring practises, that's the change I'm talking about now. New management, new attitude. It's not perfect but it's a truck load better than it used to be.

Di_Vosh

11th Feb 2016, 22:51

but the rumoured attitude proffered by Di Vosh regarding the transition of prop drivers to jets isn't something that was prevalent in 2007.

With the greatest of respect I beg to differ. I heard it on more than one occasion in 2008 during my training, and the Captains I flew with at that time said it was a common sentiment.

I'd also point out that any bias (perceived or real) from Qantas to QantasLink is more likely to be heard by QantasLink pilots than by Qantas pilots.

I'll also point out that I'm not saying that this was Qantas policy at the time. But it was the PERCEPTION of Qantas policy.

And as they say, perception is reality.

DIVOSH!

maggot

12th Feb 2016, 01:23

Sounds like a bit of group think goin on there, ive never heard any trace of that idea in nearly 20yrs in mainline and would suggest its hogswash. Recruits are valued from all backgrounds and I would even say that link pilots would be particularly valued as we know of the demanding flying undertaken.

Keg

12th Feb 2016, 01:26

Sure Di Vosh. I've got no doubt that was the perception. Like many things though, the perception and the reality were two completely different things.

An opinion sincerely and genuinely held can still be wrong if it's based on incorrect or poorly examined information.

Ultergra

6th Mar 2016, 00:31

Well that's a wrap ladies and gentlemen. Looks like from May this year, Qantas Pilots on LWOP will be returning to the mothership in stages.

The Jetstar dream is over.

maggot

6th Mar 2016, 01:24

Well that's a wrap ladies and gentlemen. Looks like from May this year, Qantas Pilots on LWOP will be returning to the mothership in stages.

The Jetstar dream is over.

Ah and what a dream it was.

The return is already well under way...

Lookleft

6th Mar 2016, 03:03

With the return of all the LWOP pilots any Jetstar pilot who thinks they have a reasonable chance of their application being successful into mainline are also dreaming.

Willie Nelson

6th Mar 2016, 03:32

As a captain at Jetstar I'm certainly astounded at how many FO's have expressed an interest in going to Qantas. The young twenty something cadets, to some degree I can understand but it seems everyone I fly with is talking about at least putting in an application. Can't help but think many will not display the drive that will be expected at the interview given the step back in role.

I guess the age of the guys in the left seat at Jetstar is in no small part a factor on top of the slow down in expansion. Sort of a double edged sword. I feel pretty lucky to have got in to Jetstar when I did.

As for Qantas not hiring guys from Qlink around 07/08, I was there and there were plenty of guys that I used to work with that got the nod at that time.

Great news Qantas is hiring again and I wish all those who get in great success. Even for those that do not get in, if there is further demand for skilled pilots within our industry then we all benefit come EBA negotiation time.

Fatguyinalittlecoat

6th Mar 2016, 05:44

That is interesting Willie

The last Jetstar EA must have shown the JQ pilots that they are unlikely to be paid as much as comparable pilots in Australia. From the outside it looked like a reasonable deal, but there is nothing left to bargain with (crew meals) to increase the salary without a huge amount if goodwill from the company.

It's now obvious that Jetstar pilots will not fly Qantas' aircraft, as many expected. It also appears that Jetstar probably won't get many (if any) more. Which puts anybody who is not close to a left seat now, in a fairly unattractive career position. And if they wanted a wide body position to ease the burden of JQ Shorthaul, the next aircraft to be delivered, the A320neo, will be able to do some of what the 787 does now, which must put the 787 fleet number under consideration. QF rumours aside.

Crazy industry. Don't blame them at all.

bdcer

6th Mar 2016, 08:01

So Fatguy, what does a 737FO earn on average? (I just want to know what a comparable wage is)

Fatguyinalittlecoat

6th Mar 2016, 08:21

gday bcd

I think that was already put on Pprune late last year in another thread. Haven't a clue of the average.

outside limits

6th Mar 2016, 09:05

So how are the lads going who resigned from QF last year to stay at JQ ? Are they showing faces of regret ?

bdcer

6th Mar 2016, 09:06

Yeh, I think I remember something about pay comparisons, but can't remember the figures. J* pay not too bad now, but the lack of promotions is the real sticking point.

OneDotLow

6th Mar 2016, 09:16

J* pay not too bad now, but the lack of promotions is the real sticking point.

Dinosaurs:ok:

Fatguyinalittlecoat

6th Mar 2016, 09:36

I stand corrected. That would indicate a salary of around 216 for a JQ (level 2) F/O. If I'm to assume you have 4 months pay left. If that's the case, I take it back.

Willie Nelson

6th Mar 2016, 09:46

Yep, most FO's are earning a nice take home right now and the overtime tap is not likely to be turned off anytime soon as we are going to loose a lot of guys heading back to Qantas. They're working their ring off for it but it's good money.

I'm not working so hard:oh:

Chadzat

6th Mar 2016, 10:10

Requestflyby

6th Mar 2016, 10:14

Yes I'm a JQ NB Level 2 FO and taking out the backpay and bonus I expect to make around 160 to 170k. So total will be around $200,000. You will work hard (flying hours) but duty time is not bad. I have ran the 'time spent on duty' past some mates at QF and VA and JQ pilots for the same hours are at work less and waste less of their life in hotels and at airports sitting around.

wheels_down

6th Mar 2016, 10:14

Jetstar FOs earning $216k?

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :ugh:

Density

6th Mar 2016, 10:47

Ive never understood the whole 'oh they are gettin smashed but they are making good money!!' Argument.

Isnt the whole point to work the least amount to make the most amount of money? Thats why I got into flying!! It certainly wasnt to fly 1000 hours a year.....

Im with you there...whats the point in earning all this coin and not having the time for any quality of life. The novelty of going to work, when flying this much, really starts to wear off quickly too!

Lookleft

6th Mar 2016, 11:41

Don't forget that figure will include the bonuses that were received early in the financial year.

Isnt the whole point to work the least amount to make the most amount of money?

Why do you think Jetstar was started in the first place? Unfortunately the people in charge of rostering and recruiting want to test where the limit is of how many hours a pilot can sustain for their 365 day totals. As someone said at Jetstar, the lifestyle equation is: time or money = lifestyle

rackman

6th Mar 2016, 12:15

My last payslip YTD total 169K at Qantas........70 hrs per month average.

The Green Goblin

6th Mar 2016, 13:03

I get the feeling something big is about to play out.

Everything has gone very quiet. Recruitment isn't replacing guys that are leaving and the guys are getting flogged. Most guys seem to be flying 90+. That's not sustainable long term.

No training resources to train the replacements and the company can't afford to upgrade guys as they need fos.

With the SOs going it's going to be very interesting.

Also interesting to note that Qlink is about to be stripped of heaps of captains taking up their belated cadetships at Qantas.

That in itself will create a heap of movement.

I get the feeling Virgin will also ramp up recruitment if Qantas do.

So for the GA guys there's positive times ahead.

It's funny how the Qantas guys love piling **** on jetstar. Yes it's slowed down. However it will ramp up again. There's a lot of jets on the way. I'd expect to see more 787s not less. They are making a killing in SEA with them. When they are not broken down.

The foreign competition tried to weaken Qantas domestically so they couldn't pursue them via jetstar in their own backyards. Qantas is killing the pig, so id expect to see them go after the competition very shortly.

They will also need to do something about lion air before the genie is out of the bottle. They have a lot of jets on the way with big expansion plans.

Id expect to see big expansion in the Asian franchises shortly.

OBNO

6th Mar 2016, 18:57

My last payslip YTD total 169K at Qantas........70 hrs per month average.
would that include qantas superannuation contributions (div 6)??

RFN

6th Mar 2016, 19:33

People will always try to justify voting up a piss poor EBA. Will you hear the voices of the 75% who voted "yes" actually admit to voting it up when the next EBA comes around? I doubt it when they realise they got shafted...again!

bdcer

6th Mar 2016, 20:07

I was going to counter RBN's post but you know what, why bother.

If you don't like the award/job then get your application into another airline/career. It will be better for everyone, less negativity amongst the ranks & you'll hopefully find what you're looking for.

Life's too short, find something that you enjoy doing & do it.

-438

6th Mar 2016, 20:15

Stop swinging your appendages around. If you really want to compare wages, read the respective awards.

The Green Goblin

7th Mar 2016, 01:47

Yes you are right.

I'd still expect to see frames getting put somewhere. There's 100 320s waiting in the wings after all.

I hope all 50 of the 787s go to Qantas. It does need them after all. I'm not disputing that. I'd expect Jetstar to get a few more too. They are fantastic when they are working. They are milking the cow with them right now to SEA.

In regards to Honkers, yes you are right. However management will want to save face and try another franchise.

Let's hope it's the states. I'd love Jetstar America. Tie up with jet blue and plug in from the pacific. Job done.

The Green Goblin

7th Mar 2016, 06:48

QF won't be getting A320s Jetstar need them to keep the fleet young and for more capacity.

QF will get more 737s and whatever Boeing is cooking up as a 757 replacement.

Daylight Robbery

8th Mar 2016, 08:31

Confirmed. With the exception of a few extras from the HK misadventure, all are replacements for Jetstar Pacific, Asia and the Australasian operation. Apart from the more recent Sharklet models, everything else will be replaced over the next few years.

Keg

8th Mar 2016, 11:06

That may be today's plans anyway lads. If there is anything we should have learned from the last decade is today's plan may not be tomorrow's plan. :ok: I won't discount the prospect of some of those group order NEOs ending up in Qantas colours until an announcement is made definitively to the contrary and the replac,met aircraft are parked at the terminal.

The Green Goblin

8th Mar 2016, 12:21

I doubt it highly.

A small fleet of buses wouldn't make sense. Although that is a qantas group speciality.

I personally see Qantas sticking to the Boeing. They keep them longer, and in the longer term they are cheaper to operate.

The buses are great if you churn them out before they get expensive to maintain.

I keep hearing Qantas guys salivitating over 321 Neos. They will only make sense if they are LRs for the longer thin legs. This would suit Jetstar over Qantas. The extra burn of the 321 over the 320 doesn't make sense in a domestic setting for yields or turn arounds. It's an extra 500 kg an hour burn for an extra 40 pax. (That's in a Jetstar config too). Qantas would probably have a 180 seats in a 321. Qantas need 767 replacements. Which is why I believe they'll be pretty keen to see what Boeing is cooking up as a 321 competitor 757 replacement.

The extra burn of the 321 is also why you see JQ with them on shorter sectors these days where the burn isn't as critical, as its up and down. The company have even removed the ACTs. They'd almost struggle to be transcontinental now.