Iran and the A380

[ORAC]

The Airbus order signed contains 12 A380s. If reports are true that they intend to use their location to challenge Emirates, Turkish etc as a well placed intercontinental hub, it could lead to a lot more sales......

Bigger than Dubai? (http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2016/02/bigger-dubai)

Iran is targeting more than fleet renewal after the lifting of aviation sanctions

Could Iran Become the Next Dubai, an Aviation Superpower? (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/24/could-iran-become-the-next-dubai-an-aviation-superpower.html)

[Meesterredmist]

Very interesting , they'd have a lot of cultural changes to make and a change in their attitude to alcohol for a start !

[Landflap]

Get in now before you are just a number on the long-list. Welcome back Iranair.

[Stuff]

While I see the logic, I won't be using Iran as a travel hub until the US rescinds their ESTA exclusions.

The United States today began implementing changes under the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015 (the Act). U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) welcomes more than a million passengers arriving to the United States every day and is committed to facilitating legitimate travel while maintaining the highest standards of security and border protection. Under the Act, travelers in the following categories are no longer eligible to travel or be admitted to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program (VWP):

Nationals of VWP countries who have traveled to or been present in Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria on or after March 1, 2011 (with limited exceptions for travel for diplomatic or military purposes in the service of a VWP country).

[vctenderness]

Now let me think shall I travel through Dubai or Teheran? Dubai,Teheran, Dubai, Teheran.....difficult NOT!!!:}

[Icelanta]

This ESTA exclusion is very easily avoided by having 2 passports, which is a simple request to your local authority for Airline pilots.

[MathFox]

I am partially with Landflap: order now, you may always cancel or resell the plane.

Secondly there is a lot of old aircraft that is past needing replacement...

And there is the local market, Iran is a big country and even an a380 might be filled on some national routes. The a380 will certainly come in handy for hajj charters to Mecca.

Add some smaller planes for routes to Asia and Europe for both the local market and people with destination Iran (an oil producing country...)

[tdracer]

Somehow, as long as Iran prohibits serving any sort of alcohol on it's flights, I suspect it's appeal for long haul travel and a major international hub will be rather limited.

[ExDubai]

What will they serve in first/business, Moet or Saudi Champagne?

[Consol]

Don't forget most nationalities require a visa for Iran. Unless they have an extensive airside set up it makes transiting more difficult if disruption happens. Not to mention women having to wear veils and no booze on flights. Hardly appealing to most international travellers.

[skydiver69]

The choice of in flight entertainment and food might also be a little limited given the Islamic Republic's politics. Iranian airports aren't the most user friendly with limited duty free and shopping opportunities, and as others have pointed out the flights would also be dry. As such I think the stories the OP linked might be more pie in the sky than reality.

[Hotel Tango]

I think Landflap was thinking of pre-revolution Iranair. Now that was something else!

[Metro man]

Back in the 1970s, Iran Air was a top level airline with a safety record equal to QANTAS. They managed to keep going through over thirty years of sanctions.

With the business opportunities becoming available and the large Iranian diaspora the airlines future is very bright. Unfortunately I can't see them serving alcohol and women will need to cover up so they will have limited appeal like Saudi Arabian or Kuwait Airways. A stopover 72 hour visa on arrival similar to China would be a major boost as there are a few sights worth seeing.

I can see Iran Air being a good origin/destination airline and a cheap option for transit flights for adventurous and budget travellers.

[slowjet]

I think LANDFLAP was also looking at employment / recruitment opportunity too. Far too early for anyone to join the recruitment list. Pre- revolution of 1979 was THE place to be. Those who were there lost the lot after the change.
Post revolution (?) no thanks. Lots of changes to be made by the current regime before they can claim a "long-list" of employment seekers. But, we professional pilots always seem to be attracted by the latest shiny big jets and fat wallets, eh ?

[Andy_S]

Heavens, it must have been at least a week since the last discussion on the A380........

[bafanguy]

slowjet,

"Lots of changes to be made by the current regime before they can claim a "long-list" of employment seekers."

Has recruiting begun already ?

https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot-Job-Posting-Pilot-Opening-Pilot-Job/9620/MENA/Rated-Non-Rated%20First%20Officers/Airbus%20A320/Ata%20Air%20-%20IRAN

[The Ancient Geek]

Given the current order backlog at Airbus it will be several years before they get many aircraft.
They will most likely start off with an assortment of dry leases and build their services slowly.

[Roadster280]

This ESTA exclusion is very easily avoided by having 2 passports, which is a simple request to your local authority for Airline pilots.

"Have you been to Iran, Iraq, Sudan or Syria since 2011, yes or no".

If you lie, and are found out, you are done. Lengthy ban from the US, can never use the VWP again. Lack of integrity might mean employment consequences too.

[Una Due Tfc]

Do you actually count as having entered the country while transiting without leaving the airport?

[despegue]

Where I have been is non of the US damn business.
2 passports works and is even recommended by my authority.

Just like when visiting Israel, Saudi, Iran for the job, 2 passports to avoid trouble.
Legal.

By the way, Roadster280, how exactly will the US find out that I ever did a layover in Khartoum?!

[ATC Watcher]

Despegue : Roaster280 has it exactly right.That is how it was explained to us 2 weeks ago by an official the State Department. So all of us affected have appointments at the US embassy to get 10 years visas.
how exactly will the US find out that I ever did a layover in Khartoum
Ever heard of PNR and biometric passports scanning? you may have 10 passports, your biometrics are one. Everytime your passport is scanned on your way to or from a destination, the data goes into a central database. Welcome to the XXIst century.

[wingview]

ME4 is pregnant :)

[Roadster280]

Where I have been is non of the US damn business.
2 passports works and is even recommended by my authority.

Just like when visiting Israel, Saudi, Iran for the job, 2 passports to avoid trouble.
Legal.

By the way, Roadster280, how exactly will the US find out that I ever did a layover in Khartoum?!

Quite right, as long as you don't intend to visit the US, then it remains your business. But if you want to visit the US, then you have to follow the rules set by the US.

If you are found to deliberately lie to the US immigration authorities, they will have a sense of humor failure and you will be denied entry, banned from the US for a period, and forfeit the privilege of traveling visa free. That's the least sanction you can hope for.

Whether or how they find out is immaterial, and I have no idea how they do that, but it doesn't seem beyond the wit of man to compare computerized records (like the ESTA itself).

The old green I-94Ws had seemingly silly questions on it like "Have you ever committed an act of terrorism or supported a terrorist organization?". I highly doubt anybody, ever, answered yes to that question. But the point of it was not to have someone answer it honestly. It was a tool to efficiently deport or detain those individuals. The act of lying to the authorities is a serious thing in the US. Never mind the actual immigration issue, you've just committed a federal offense by lying to an immigration officer. Clang, mind your fingers.

I'm not making the case for whether it's right or over the top, I'm just explaining how it is. Having two passports doesn't mean you can lie on one of them.

[The Ancient Geek]

Badk in the 70s there were serious sanctions against Rhodesia.
Just put a blank sheet of paper in your passport next to your photo and the border guards on both sides would stamp the blank sheet without a word being said. Problem solved.

[Flying Clog]

Love the level of naivety in Roadster280s post! Typical Yank nonsense!

Despegue is spot on. The two passport method works a treat, trust me. For exactly the reasons he mentioned. And not just entering the US, but all over the world. Biometric passports make **** all difference.

:D

[oleary]

"Not to mention women having to wear veils and no booze on flights. Hardly appealing to most international travellers."

What utter nonsense. Iranian women have NEVER been required to wear "veils".

[crewmeal]

Just out of curiosity was Iran Air dry before the Mullahs moved back?

[Metro man]

What utter nonsense. Iranian women have NEVER been required to wear "veils".

May be confusing with headscarves, there are signs at IKA Airport in Tehran reminding women to observe the dress code.

[Tourist]

Just out of curiosity was Iran Air dry before the Mullahs moved back?

No, but then it's no more dry now than Saudi Arabia is.

[racedo]

Relatively easy way to overcome the stamping of passports of transiting and that is for country to read and not stamp passports. Therefore no proof they have transited Tehran.

[vctenderness]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crewmeal View Post
Just out of curiosity was Iran Air dry before the Mullahs moved back?
No, but then it's no more dry now than Saudi Arabia is.

I once, post revolution, had an invite to a well connected Iranians Teheran home for a function. A large impressive house. As we entered and were ushered into a large room servants were serving glasses of chilled champagne. A very Impressive spread was laid out including a table laden with bottles of Johhny Walker Black label. Other drinks such as beer and vodka were available.

The host told me that alcohol was freely available to those in the know and with the right connections. He also said there was a market in town where smugglers plied their wares to the ordinarily folks as well.

Just the usual Islamic hypocrisy same old same old:ok:

[Roadster280]

Love the level of naivety in Roadster280s post! Typical Yank nonsense!

Despegue is spot on. The two passport method works a treat, trust me. For exactly the reasons he mentioned. And not just entering the US, but all over the world. Biometric passports make **** all difference.

:D

You crack on mate.

[sandiego89]

I still see cash being a potential obstacle to all these orders becoming reality. Oil prices are currently really low (I realize that will not stay the case forever), some banks still seem a bit reluctant to offer loans, and sanctions could get snapped back into place....

[kcockayne]

Yes, but Airbus will be "pulling out all the stops" to ensure that Iranair get the funding they need - especially for the A380 !

[Rwy in Sight]

I think earlier in this thread or somewhere aviation related there was a mention about the accounts unfrozen held in the US bank. So there were some serious money on those account.

[Dave Clarke Fife]

I think earlier in this thread or somewhere aviation related there was a mention about the accounts unfrozen held in the US bank. So there were some serious money on those account.

Serious money indeed. Depending on which source you use the frozen assets are believed to range somewhere between $20billion and $180billion. Obama initially stated that the sum totalled some $100billion but later reassessed it at $50 to $60billion.

Iran?s frozen funds: how much is really there and how will they be used? (http://theconversation.com/irans-frozen-funds-how-much-is-really-there-and-how-will-they-be-used-45913)

[vancouv]

Just put a blank sheet of paper in your passport next to your photo and the border guards on both sides would stamp the blank sheet without a word being said. Problem solved.

When I visited Cuba some time ago the border guys used to do exactly that (I don't have a US passport) so that you wouldn't get any hassle if you subsequently visited the States. I suspect if they hadn't it might have affected the number of people who were willing to visit and spend their tourist dollars.

[oleary]

May be confusing with headscarves, there are signs at IKA Airport in Tehran reminding women to observe the dress code.

Ignorance is such a delightful attribute - especially when one's mouth is open.

[oleary]

Just the usual Islamic hypocrisy same old same old.

Not that Christians can ever be accused of hypocrisy, right?

[oleary]

I still see cash being a potential obstacle to all these orders becoming reality. Oil prices are currently really low (I realize that will not stay the case forever), some banks still seem a bit reluctant to offer loans, and sanctions could get snapped back into place....

.... how much money is available in Iran :p

[ATNotts]

Why is alcohol (or the lack of it's availability) such a big thing? Is it necessary, or even desirable, to drink whilst flying (as a passenger!)? A dry flight, with no a@ses getting ratted may be a blessing!

As regards headscarves, when you look at TV news footage of Tehran streets, what passes for a headscarf seems to be observed pretty liberally in many cases, especially amongst younger women.

[recceguy]

I have two passports, and there is no way the Yank's are going to check everywhere I'm going to. They can imagine they are at the centre of the world, but they aren't - it would be time for them to acnowledge reality.
My country is not going to communicate to anybody all my passports details, and if things are properly segregated, all will be fine. I always show certain passport for certain countries, and when going to US I always show the "clean" one, with a beautiful US visa in the middle of a lot of virgin pages.
At worst they will ban me from their country - and so what ? I have been there sufficiently enough, the rest of the world is big enough for me.
And if they qustion me too hard, I will show them the pictures of me flying and getting qualified on the F16 in the USAF, or pictures of PSAB in the 90s...
Long life to A380 in Iran Air livery.
I'm just writing this from cold Moscow, as an example.

[His dudeness]

Not that Christians can ever be accused of hypocrisy, right?

No, what you mean is being called "western values" :}

[flight_mode]

Contributing further to the thread drift. Where does the assumption that Iran Air has to be dry come from?

The other 3 ME carriers all serve alcohol, on board and in lounges, including during Ramadan. Although the carrier who shall not be named on this site removes alcohol from display in lounges during daylight hours.
The law in Iran permits non-Muslims from importing and drinking alcohol.

[vctenderness]

Quote:
Not that Christians can ever be accused of hypocrisy, right?

Pretty naive comment.

Of course Christians are capable of hypocrisy but they don't practice it on a global scale under government supervision!

I can sit here and give examples of hypocrisy I encountered during 40 years of travelling around the world and in particular to Muslim countries.

The people who keep the casinos in business in London are the same ones who ban gambling in their own country. And I mean the rulers.

Saudis who complain if the champagne is no chilled enough or the lack of Black label Scotch:ok:

[skydiver69]

Contributing further to the thread drift. Where does the assumption that Iran Air has to be dry come from?

It doesn't have to be dry but it is dry and given the current government it will remain dry in the foreseeable future. You are right in saying that Christians for example can drink in Iran and I know from first hand knowledge that there is a thriving black market in imported booze as well as a lot of underground home made alcohol.

Alcohol isn't the be all and end all of travel but its availability sends a message to the travelling world which improves its attractiveness. Personally I don't drink when I fly but I do buy duty free for gifts and personal use. The duty free shopping in Iran's international airports is somewhat limited and pales into insignificance in comparison to Dubai or Turkey. That difference will act as a disincentive to travel via Iran as much as anything else.

[main_dog]

Of course Christians are capable of hypocrisy but they don't practice it on a global scale under government supervision!


Please tell me your tongue is firmly in your cheek?

Shall we speak of our relationship with the Saudis? The Iraq war? What of our support of democracy in selected countries, except when, for example, the Muslim Brotherhood is elected?

We in the west, sir, are every bit as hypocritical as everyone else! :} and it's definitely on a global scale under government supervision.

[Rwy in Sight]

Alcohol availability:

I have seriously decrease its consumption to a drink or two on a three hour flight and if I had a drink on the airport I stick to the tomato juice that I think it is a fabulous drink to have while flying. However if the drinks were not available I would avoid flying in that airline - usually a second time the first would be out of curiosity.

[AC560]

there is no way the Yank's are going to check everywhere I'm going to.

The NSA knows where everyone is, just ask Eric Snowden as you are both enjoying Moscow together.

They can imagine they are at the centre of the world, but they aren't

We are the center (fixed spelling for you) of the world, it is time you acknowledged that!

PS All in good fun :O

[Metro man]

Is it possible that US spies pay off immigration officials in Khartoum/Tehran/Havana etc to supply them with a regular list of names of US citizens and foreigners who visit those countries ?

[ATC Watcher]

Is it possible that US spies pay off immigration officials in Khartoum/Tehran/Havana etc to supply them with a regular list of names of US citizens and foreigners who visit those countries ?

With today technology you do not need to do that. Every time your passport is scanned by immigration, your data goes into a data base and checked against various things Accessing this data base by the US can be voluntary ( Agreement between foreign services), or non-voluntary ( e.g scandal in Germany 2 years ago) .
When you board an Iran air flight today from Europe-Shengen ( or any other flight going to Iran, Syria or Iraq,) your get a separate immigration pre-boarding check which includes pass port scan. Same when you come back.
I would not bet much on believing this info stays firmly in the departure airport in the Country of boarding/arrival.

I am not at all a fan of this US anti-terrorist paranoia , but hey, in the end, if you want (or need) to go to the US you follow their rules or you stay home .

[Rwy in Sight]

And if they qustion me too hard, I will show them the pictures of me flying and getting qualified on the F16 in the USAF, or pictures of PSAB in the 90s...
Long life to A380 in Iran Air livery.

Agreed about the A380 in Iran Air livery. However I think your pics on F16 and USAF the US authorities would get super-excited and not in a good way.

[INKJET]

There was an Iran Air A340 on a remote stand at LGW last week, brand new paint job.

[ORAC]

ATC Watcher, the PNR message sent by the airlines don't reflect passenger transit airports, only departure and destination. There is no requirement for transit passengers to pass immigration control and have the passport inspected, hence they won't be logged. So, for example, a flight was routing SYD-DUB-LHR with pax A going SYD-DUB and pax B going SYD-LHR; the message to Dubai would only contain pax A and to the USA only pax B. Pax B as a transit pax would not go through passport control at DUB and their passport would not be scanned, hence no record.

The only way of the USA knowing would be to have access to hack access to all encrypted databases world-wide to see who was on all flights, be aware of the routes and transit points of all such flights and interpolate to infer who had transited through where.

[Metro man]

"The only way of the USA knowing would be to have access to hack access to all encrypted databases world-wide to see who was on all flights, be aware of the routes and transit points of all such flights and interpolate to infer who had transmitted through where."

Which is the sort of thing the NSA does.

[JAARule]

At the behest of my employer I submitted my USA crew visa renewal application a couple of months ago. In an effort to avoid being approved I named every ****ty tinpot totalitarian wartorn ISIS-loving Bin Laden-cheering country (plus Iran) I could think of as having been recently visited on work trips.

End result - I'm now the proud holder of a USA crew visa and will be rostered accordingly. They don't care.

Having been there it's not such a bad place and the people are generally pretty nice when they're not raving. They just need to get over this thing with alcohol.

[Espada III]

From what I understand, its about 1% of the population are lunatics and the rest wish to be more western than those of us in the west. The general population are certainly far more cultured and well educated than our oiks in the UK or rednecks in the USA.