Staff Travel Change

[A3301FD]

Jan 1st 2017 - KA will have same boarding priority as CX Staff on CX flights.

So it begins...the first in the list of changes to be introduced.

[Gnadenburg]

Yep and vicky-verka on KA's ever expanding network which will be well received by regional CX commuters and travelers but not so by some in KA.

Now that Contract Compliance has been averted I imagine the message will be keep expanding KA? Despite a 50% command failure rate it has the training capacity in place to keep growing. And we can circle and fly visual approaches too if that helps?

[superfrozo]

But it's ok. CX also get PRI25 on KA now. Finally!

I was so sick of getting bumped off the Guilin flight. :hmm:
And CX get the KA travel fund too. Well, that wasn't in the Update but I'm sure that's just an oversight.

Right??? :ugh:

[Gnadenburg]

Your cabin crew commuters are often furious getting bumped by KA staff to Penang and elsewhere. The tantrums spectacular and perhaps the original driver of this policy with Cathay-Dragon taking over more regional routes.

[OneBarWonder]

Great news! I knew I joined the wrong airline! I'll finally be able to commute to Zhengzhou now! The wife will be over the moon!

Seriously, I hope CX skippers look after their own with JS requests when possible, not that they'll be around much longer.

[Freehills]

So, which senior CX staff have places in Phuket...?

[landrecovery]

And they didn't attack the COS
Hang on
:mad:

[Dan Winterland]

In a moment of magnanimity, while feeling the spirit of the combined CX group airlines, I was motivated to acknowledge all my outstanding JS requests. Twenty seven CX staff, only one from KA.

There are plenty of CX staff who will also benefit from this change.

[Milking a mouse]

Zhengzhou? Guilin? Seriously? The same juvenile arguments can be made for Colombo...Chennai...the entire Middle East....

As a group, everyone benefits from this change. Airline versus airline, Cathay staff benefit more than Dragon as due to greater resident seniority. ie. CX will bump KA more than KA will bump CX staff.

The only people that lose from this are the commuters. If you only care about ONE city. If you couldn't give a flying fark about travel to the other 89 then this hurts you. The Cathay commuters to PER & SYD, the Dragon commuters to HKT & PEN etc. So given that group-wide, commuters number in the hundreds out of a global headcount that exceeds 20,000 this is a no brainer. Personally, I look forward to having a far better chance of getting uplifted for the next bucks night in HKT, golf trip to CNX or squeezing onto the last flight out of HND that gets me back in time for duty without tea and biccies.

And for the record One Bar Wonder, I issue jumpseats to aircrew first come first served, independent of airline. If you're family of the operating crew or a close friend you'll be pushed up and if you've let my JS request whither on the vine or played games you'll be pushed down (reciprocity).

MM

[White None]

Very Magnanimouse of you. Having checked with a couple of Dragon mates, the culture there is (quite logically and reasonably IMO) to favour their own - I will reciprocate.

[Booger]

"...everyone benefits from this change..."

Yeah, right. And I suppose RA 65 will reduce time to Commands??

[Lowkoon]

And to think it only took 36 months to implement from when we got it in writing! Quite brilliant!! So it takes 1080 days to add 500 pilots to the system..

That's one name added to a data base every two days. Obviously a user friendly data entry system employed by our IT elite. Do we really believe the excrement spewing forth again?

Now boys and girls , don't be a single day late with your tech quiz or learners world (enter pathetic course title here), or we will stand you down. Having issues this threat, if you could give us three years to add your name to a data base we would greatly appreciate it, as you will only really be considered as part of the group once we change the paint on the planes you fly, (why?) and as we know there is nothing you can do about it anyway.. Be guided accordingly as they say.

[Anotherday]

So you'll now be handing back the large travel allowance you still get at KA because you don't have staff travel internationally.........

Or spending it on commuting to Sydney. I'm guessing there'll be about a 300% increase in KA commuters.

[Lowkoon]

Or we just roll it into our pay like you guys VOTED to do? Not sure what you are getting at there. Which of your COS items will you be happy to give up because KA don't get them too? Quite an odd position to take industrially.

As for Sydney commuters, a 300% increase in your estimates might see the numbers rocket up to a dozen guys. We only get the same priority, that's it.

Have you ever seen a KA roster? If you do see one, look at it with commuting in mind, you will feel a lot better about yourself, and your fear of getting bumped by a KA commuter. I promise.

[giggerty]

KA commuters?? You're joking aren't you. Our rosters don't allow commuting, just quick visits. We fly short haul remember. 8 gs a month.

As for the travel fund??!! That's why for the same grade CX gets 20% higher basic wage than KA. Yours is included in your wage, ours is an add on.

I've got 15 jump seat requests over the next few days. 12 are Cx staff. And as per the mouse milker they are first come first serve.

[Gnadenburg]

Anotherday

How spiteful. And what will you be giving up when you bump KA staff off regional routes? Nothing !

Commuting to Australia on a KA roster will seriously damage your health. Most know this.



swh

Shouldn't you be working a G day or something instead of laying into a KA pilots.

[Weary traveller]

swh, I think you'll find it wasn't one of our own that created the boating debacle but rather one of our less highly regarded HR managers looking for another opportunity to poke a stick where it shouldn't have been poked.

[S22]

Please can we not let this descend into a slanging match.
I can understand how CX crews must feel and particulalry so as PEN has come over to us with the Malaysian staff trying to get home. With the current industrial climate the timing is less than ideal.
KA people please dont wind up our opposite numbers. CX guys bear with us we too are just trying to get through the day in one piece.
For my part I will always do my best to get staff on the jump seat particulalry our colleagues from CX who are always a pleasure to have onboard.

[Freehills]

I would think somewhat unlikely that KA crew will start commuting. The impact will more be that KA crews' families are now going to be higher priority when visiting grandma etc. down in OZ. But given how full the flights are anyway, marginal impact on making commuting tougher than it already is

[Soul planet]

cathay dragon's crew don't even have time to travel outside their roster!

http://st.depositphotos.com/1647366/2315/v/950/depositphotos_23151656-Chinese-Zodiac-Animal---Dragon.jpg

[betpump5]

KA commuters?? You're joking aren't you. Our rosters don't allow commuting, just quick visits. We fly short haul remember. 8 gs a month.

sounds like a certain fleet in CX..

[KABOY]

That is as believable as KA pilots denying they did not propose to go into contract compliance because they were not in receipt of benefits from another airline that they dont even work for.

The identity of the KA individual with regard to the boats is well known to anyone that spends extended periods of time on water for pleasure. The same individual makes a point of telling everyone they now work for CATHAY dragon. KA peers should have told them pull his head in.

SWH, before the total destruction of your credibility please refrain from the above BS.

Ask your KA friends about last night..... but with your sweeping allegations I doubt you have any!

[Weary traveller]

swh, It's a great shame that you seem insistent on trying to drive yet another wedge between pilot groups with your hostility. In the interest of your more sane colleagues I'm not biting, nor do I take offence. Your interpretation is too childish to be genuinely offended. I'm sorry that you feel KA are such a demanding and selfish crowd. I can only assure you that things aren't quite as simplistic as that. As for the boating issue, I regret that you're misinformed.

[swh]

Ask your KA friends about last night..... but with your sweeping allegations I doubt you have any!

Nothing happened last night, this has been put in print to KA staff a long time ago, It was never communicated to CX staff officially until today.

I can only assure you that things aren't quite as simplistic as that.

Of course everyone in CX all misinformed, we were never told.

Just to set the record straight, when exactly did people in KA get told about PRI 25 travel (a year ago plus ?) When did people in CX get told ? (today)

I would actually say it is more accurate to say that we were not informed or consulted at all. Unlike the people at KA and the DPA. Your DO only sent out and email only a few weeks ago confirming again it will take effect in Jan 2016 before the DPA EGM in Feb. He described it as an "important matter", while people above are all trying to downplay it. Are you saying he is also misinformed ?

So you think it totally fair that a a CN that has been in KA for 2 years can bump a FO that has been in CX for 12 years ? Then you have people above claiming CX guys are paid 20% more ???

I can only assure you that things aren't quite as simplistic as that. As for the boating issue, I regret that you're misinformed.

As for the boat issue, so you are suggesting that is the fault of CX pilots as well ?

[Shot Nancy]

The identity of the KA individual with regard to the boats is well known

It was a CX non-flying employee passing judgement on a KA pilot.

[cyrex]

It's ok swh, no need to justify anything with this swarm of KA posts. I am sure they will fight for common seniority list soon for a chance to come across as well. It will also be interesting to see what the greatest union in CX has to say with this demoralizing change....the FAU and not AOA ofcourse.

[Gnadenburg]

So you think it totally fair that a a CN that has been in KA for 2 years can bump a FO that has been in CX for 12 years ?

I'm not going to race SWH to the bottom so can someone else explain how a group employee of 2 years can bump another group employee of 12 years off a flight if it's a DOJ based system.

AOA knew of this matter years ago .......

cyrex

No interest in your outfit too many weirdos. And I like to circle and fly manually. I can't recall your outbursts when all the other KA employees went over years ago either.

[captaindbusdriver]

Hi CX Guys,

You as much as KA Crews really don't have any control over the future direction of our companies! You may not realise this but this is the truth... Pilot's think they are in control, however we really have no control of name changes or future directions of the company. We drive the aeroplanes. If you seriously think what you say about another companies crew within your group of companies is beneficial keep it up!!!!!!! When you are finished and wakeup and smell the roses and have a 100% unified crew within the group of companies well then and only then will you have a strong workforce.................

This should have been the first thing the 2 pilot groups should have achieved 10 years ago......... But **** unions with poor leadership only drives the direction of the selfish with the subsequent position you are now complaining about.

United you rule, divide you loose!
:ugh::ugh::ugh::mad::mad::mad:

[Anotherday]

How about we get the option to dump our KA priority 25 and never have anyone from KA get on a CX flight ahead of us.
Haven't ever used KA in the past and don't want to now.
We just got f*cked.

[swh]

I'm not going to race SWH to the bottom so can someone else explain how a group employee of 2 years can bump another group employee of 12 years off a flight if it's a DOJ based system.

CN PRI11 J
FO PRI11 YW

And a Swire employee can bump both with an even lower DOJ.

[captaindbusdriver]

Next time you have a look at the bottom line.... A company with 41 aircraft makes more profit than the big brother! That has many more aircraft and have muscled into KA operating territory!

[Gnadenburg]

swh

Funnily I haven't noted your mordant outburst about Swire employees nor our KA office staff who switched over prior. It does seem puerile though, that when it's the KA pilots your protests begin.

Annual FOC's? Expats ( not C scale ) are having their travel fund partially garnished over that one.

[swh]

Next time you have a look at the bottom line.... A company with 41 aircraft makes more profit than the big brother!

Thanks for the laughs, how much money does CX funnel into associated companies ? All those "KA office staff who switched over" do what exactly for the KA subsidiary ? Who pays for them ? Who pays for the aircraft ?

Who exactly is paying the 100 million for the re-branding of KA ?

Funnily I haven't noted your mordant outburst about Swire employees nor our KA office staff who switched over prior.

The "office staff" are now employed by CX, not KA, they are entitled to CX benifits. Swire employees and directors etc have always had higher priority, there is no change. They also have higher priority on KA.

If you all joined the bottom of the ASL today as CX employees at the same time, no one would complain. Done the same way as any new joiner on the same day at CX, by lottery, totally random order. Thats what the KA freighter pilots did.

"travel fund partially garnished":ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Oasis]

Why did the Aoa not know about this, as the dpa had this information available for a long time?
I thought they were working closely together?

[flyhardmo]

This thread is a F@çk!ng disgrace.

Please re-read captaindbusdriver's post

[Gnadenburg]

The "office staff" are now employed by CX, not KA, they are entitled to CX benifits.

swh

Just wondering. Did the KA office staff transferred to CX go to the bottom of the list?

Oasis

AOA has known about from near to day one.

[cyrex]

flyhardmo

How is this post a F*(&KING Disgrace? You guys whined your way into getting the same travel priority as us while all we can do is watch and witness you cutting the line in boarding priority. You guys stole from our cos and you call us disgrace? It would of been marginally more acceptable if all your travelling priority dates start from the date CX took over KA and not your KA DOJ which is totally irrelevant anyway.

[Gnadenburg]

swh

Wasn't the question. Did KA office staff have their DOJ honored when they were transferred to CX? Just wondering and thought you may know.

[tsimbeit]

In January 1990 Cathay Pacific and Swire Group acquired a majority stake in Dragonair. That's s long time ago.

[swh]

Yes they did and the pilots did as well, differance is they are CX employees. They are on CX employment terms.

The office staff and pilots however did not carry over rank or promotion opportunities, they were added to the CX pool. The pilots joined the bottom of the ASL in random order like any other pilot. Most of them are around 2000 on the seniority list, none are currently eligible for a passenger command, probably not before 2020 at the earliest.

I know the KA captains would throw their FOs under a bus to jump over as there is no downside for their rank. The FOs however would be looking at 12 years additional FO time which is a significant loss of forward earnings.

1990

Using your logic every CX employee should get full Swire benefits since 1948. No CX employee thinks that is their right.

[Gnadenburg]

swh

Thanks for answering the question.

So in a prior charade unnoticed to CX pilots, KA office staff became CX employees and their KA DOJ honored for staff travel !

[Epic 76]

"CN PRI11 J
FO PRI11 YW"

@SWH, you're hilarious. I mean ball-tearingly funny. You remind me of Yosemite Sam the cartoon character, getting all worked up, going off half-cocked on things he doesn't understand and shooting himself in the foot.

A 2 year Capt with an 11J will ALWAYS be trumped by a 12 year FO with 11YW when there aren't enough seats. Class only determines cabin eligibility, NOT boarding priority when the flights are full. When full, it's DOJ only (within a common priority such as 11). It changed last year when 20 year office ladies cracked the ****s at 2 year pilots bumping them off flights because the pilots were eligible in for J while the office ladies weren't.

I hope you have a better understanding of the FCOM's than you do staff travel.

[Milking a mouse]

So you think it totally fair that a CN that has been in KA for 2 years can bump a FO that has been in CX for 12 years?

Bah-bao! Wrong. Wanna go for double or nothing?

[Milking a mouse]

Well the document I have in-front of me states for KA "Captains, grade 4 & 5 ground staff (11B)", CX FO/JFO/FO/SFO get economy. That is not based on DOJ, but rank.

You're confusing eligible travel class with boarding priority. When flights are full (more staff than seats) it goes to DOJ only, within the same priority. Been like this for over a year. We no longer get to use eligibility for a cabin that others aren't as a way to get on. *sigh*

[swh]

You're confusing eligible travel class with boarding priority. When flights are full (more staff than seats) it goes to DOJ only, within the same priority.


That's subload, not nosub.

[CXKA]

So a CPT with maybe a year or two in the company gets higher benefits than a 10 year FO at CX waiting for their command? Thanks for the stab in the back guys! But on the bright side I can get P25 to some sh@t hole in China.

[Milking a mouse]

That's subload, not nosub.

Sorry, both treated exactly the same way. I'm not going to quote a company document here but go to IntraCX > iJourney > Leisure Travel Policy > Boarding Policy. Incidentally, I've personally seen cabin crew (11Y) bump pilots (11B) due DOJ. A 12 year never bumps a 2 year.

CXKA: "The problem with internet quotes is you can't always depend on their accuracy" - Abraham Lincoln

[CXKA]

That may be the case but look what happened to Lincoln!

Not worth the stress I suppose you enjoy all those lovely China turn arounds.

[ACMS]

Well it's total bull.

Sorry but no KA pilot will ever get my jump seat ahead of ANY CX employee.

J4 "if" you are lucky.

[S22]

Well it's total bull.

Sorry but no KA pilot will ever get my jump seat ahead of ANY CX employee.

J4 "if" you are lucky.

Well I will still allocate JS to staff on a first come first seved basis irrespective of company.

I wonder what the next step is: new livery, staff travel. What about destinations?

Perhaps this is a sideshow. Ask yourself is it divisive?

Is that a familiar tactic?

Let us try not wind each other up!

[mngmt mole]

Guys, let's be a bit careful with the anger we are rightfully feeling. Ultimately it's not the KA pilots fault. It's the fault of a management who has no consideration for issues that are of vital importance and fairness. That is where our anger and our reaction should be directed. It's not too hard to imagine that they are delighted wish seeing the pilots turn against one another on yet another issue.

[ACMS]

Nope, they wished for it they wanted it they pushed for it.
They didn't care what we thought and why should we care if we hurt their feelings.

They could have said no this isn't right, or they could simply have not asked for it in the beginning.

Yep this is BS.

As John McEnroe said "You can't be serious":mad:

[scavengepump]

Spot on ACMS!

Management couldn't resist an opportunity for us to go at each other. In this case I'll oblige management their wish....
Can you lot across the road imagine the outrage if Jetstar pilots were afforded the same boarding priority as Qantas mainline?? This is what has happened here.
Stop moaning about your lot in life and taking what is not yours to take - you all had the chance to join CX but chose KA instead. Mostly because your egos couldn't handle sitting in a windowless seat for a few years. There is no way in the world you can justify this disgrace.

You all made your bed when you joined KA.

[swh]

Sorry, both treated exactly the same way.


The only way that will happy is if they are both not confirmed, ie both travelling standby, so yes that can happen. Same rules as subload apply.

If your confirmed you don't go to the staff travel desk and can check in at home or the AEL like any normal passenger. A 2nd yr SO with a confirmed 11Y will get on before a standby 11B with 30 years of service.

More often than not you will also get confirmed with 11B over 11YW during busy periods as YW is normally full while J has seats.

[Anotherday]

The drivel on here is nauseating.

Now you've got all the perks of your quick command at KA and DOJ travel at CX, only now do you all want to be unified and fight the company as one.

Seriously?

As I said, never used KA, never will, happy to not sign across and not have priority 25 on KA if it keeps me from getting thrown off CX by employees from another airline.

That should be an option, AOA motion please.

[Lowkoon]

I think the timing of this is interesting. At a time when both groups were going to enter CC together, a deal that had been offered 2 YEARS AGO and never delivered on, is suddenly whipped out of the bottom draw, and RE OFFERED in 12 months time! Do you really think that they need to wait until we get new paint for it to be delivered on? Of course not. They are looking to cause the greatest divide between the two groups, because after it is done, and in place we move on to the next fight don't we?

This is a big juicy carrot that has been dangled in front of a donkey for two years! "Suddenly" it becomes a good idea to give it to the donkey, but the donkey has to wait 12 months for the carrot. In the mean time, the carrot will be used to roger the CX pilots BECAUSE THEY ARE IN CC! No other reason, it is no different to them pulling your RPA! No different. Look at it for what it is.

The more naive of you are angry at the donkey. :ugh:

[Gnadenburg]

swh

The point is the separate AOC is a charade and you are playing at semantics.

KA staff whose jobs are little changed and nor have their promotional avenues altered from where we sit were given a DOJ staff travel. You never uttered a protest.

The seismic shift in staff travel 12 months or so ago which seemed to advantage office staff was a reasonable driver during pay negotiations and still is. We were lured toward a Corporate scheme in our previous CC campaign and it's now becoming unusable with the policy shifts in staff travel.

Group routes chop and change and the Plan B is been driven with further expansion of KA over CX routes. We also often experienced CX staff getting ahead of us on our own aircraft due to confusion with ground-staff . Still happens with a careless apology.

Some clown above referred to Jetstar. We all know what happened there. CX pilots' behavior, and lets just gauge it from the annals of pprune, has been one of total arrogance toward KA pilots. "It's a take-over, not a merger" rants have been endless and just a blinded legacy pilot attitude that has missed significant opportunities to work with the DPA.

ACMS

Brave you and your jump seat power. My next flight has six J/S requests all CX with personal email contact from one pilot.

Word of advice. He who controls their G day workers wins CC. You come across as a bitter divider and sniper. Why don't you reach out to some of your own.

[Soul planet]

Its funny how Cathay Dragon's cabin crew are celebrating and smirking online at CX complaining about this change. Now ready to brace for the bump not only by the dragon's pilots, but also by their old ____ joined before you! :=

http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/52988/2935739/1240437376467/boyle.jpg?token=9FMWudydf05ZbiJiHawfFGCjHNE%3D

By the way, anyone happened to read Yamm3r - there are peeps really happy about this change so they can visit the dragon's ports with their families! :D I am sincerely happy for them too! :ok:

[scavengepump]

Yes Lowkoon you are indeed a Donkey.

Did the DPA threaten to go into CC over Pri 25 on CX or not?

Just imagine if the boot was on the other foot - you guys would be howling and rightly so.

You can quit banging your head against the wall while you're at it!

[2 cents]

I know KA staff were only fighting for what was promised to them, however please appreciate that this major win comes almost entirely at the expense of CX staff - especially pilots and their families. You seriously can't expect CX staff to be jumping for joy about this.

A quick calculation on FOC tickets. 3000 KA staff, 1-3 dependants each (say average of 2), times 4 FOC sectors per year. Equals 36000 FOC tickets per year. That will have serious adverse consequences for many, many people.

[mngmt mole]

No, it will mainly have consequences for CX management, when the 'sickness' rate rises even further due to people deciding that they just can't be bothered worrying whether or not they get on a flight back to HK after leave/time off etc. Instead, they will just decide the 'stress' is a bit too much and give themselves another week or two off. :D

[ACMS]

I'd be interested to know which Airlines out there in the same situation give the subsidiary company employees DOJ staff travel on the same priority?

I sure Qantas doesn't give Jetstar employees the same priority on QF and they are 100% part of the "Qantas Group"

Where exactly is this precedence you KA people use as an excuse to make you feel better?

Because if you can show me with facts that this is the normal procedure that is followed around the world by most legacy career Airlines then I'll back off a bit.

We have NOT merged the two Airlines yet.

[Mill Worker]

ACMS, you are correct. Some JQ employees get a better priority on QF than QF employee. Sad but true.

[Toruk Macto]

Qantas gave Qlink same priority in late 90's . Qantas employee's where getting priority on Qlink at the time so slightly different but it happened overnight with out consultation . Purely DOJ on any class .

[asianeagle]

A quick calculation on FOC tickets. 3000 KA staff, 1-3 dependants each (say average of 2), times 4 FOC sectors per year. Equals 36000 FOC tickets per year. That will have serious adverse consequences for many, many people.

Whats an FOC????

I can't remember when I actually had a FOC confirmed and actually flown in the class I was entitled to.
Is this really a loss because of the integration or was it lost long ago??

[swh]

KA staff whose jobs are little changed and nor have their promotional avenues altered from where we sit were given a DOJ staff travel. You never uttered a protest.

You are still missing the point, they are not KA staff, they are ex-KA staff that are now CX staff and are ENTITLED to CX benefits like other CX staff. There is also ex-KA staff at HK Airlines, that does not give current KA staff any implied rights to any benefit at HK Airlines.

As for "nor have their promotional avenues altered" what a load of bullocks, tell that to all the people that were let go. The ex-KA staff are not treated any different to other CX employees, be it ex-KA staff that work in the office, as cabin crew, or as pilots.

KA staff get treated differently, they are employed under different conditions of service because they are not CX staff. I would love to have an extra months leave a year (10 vs 6 weeks), less hours per month, being paid for delays, less night flying etc etc.

Did the DPA threaten to go into CC over Pri 25 on CX or not?

Absolute silence over that.

[Dan Winterland]

It will also be interesting to see what the greatest union in CX has to say with this demoralizing change....the FAU and not AOA ofcourse.

Of the 29 JS requests I have approved this month, the demographics are as follows.

1 KA pilot.
2 KA cabin crew.
4 CX managers (not directly working for KA)
1 CX pilot.
21 CX cabin crew.

From these statistics, I deduce that that the largest section of the CX group employees will be fairly happy having equal priority across the group and will therefore, probably not be demoralised.

[tsimbeit]

In 1993 we agreed that the KA pilots must not fly the L-1011, did anyone listen, anything learnt?

[2 cents]

This argument about how many jumpseat requests you have from CX staff is completely irrelevant. I doubt you get a huge jumpseat demand for Fuzhou, Chongqing, or Wuhan, so the flights you are probably quoting are PEN and HKT. And if your jumpseat requests indicate relative CX/KA demand on these sectors, so what? What's your point? If the vast majority of standby pax are CX staff anyway, this "new" travel scheme won't improve anything for them.

[JY9024]

Jet Star / QantasLink etc are all part of the Qantas Group staff travel and all have DOJ with regards to priority on qantas group a/c. In others words, A Dash 8 captain who was employed by Sunstate back in the 80's will have priority over a Qantas captain who joined in the 90's. They all have separate AOC's.
I believe this is industry standard in mergers like this. It just should of happened at the same time they merged the office staff and freighter pilots and not ten years latter.
I do though have to agree that this is a disadvantage to some CX staff and I feel for those who are commuters who have no interest in KA's network. It is a win for the staff that live within our network who regularly apply for the JS.

[GMEDX]

tsimbeit. Next you'll be saying KA pilots must not fly the A350. Incredible!

[tsimbeit]

tsimbeit. Next you'll be saying KA pilots must not fly the A350. Incredible!

That's how the CX members voted in 1993, unbelievable!

Nobody listened to the pilots or cabin crew when it came to running the organisation that time either.

Move on!

We are all working for Cathay now, one happy family!

[Lowkoon]

Scavenge pump, I rest my case on the donkey reference, continue to play the man not the ball if you must.

The DPA motion was to allow the Chairman to call CC, so no technically you are incorrect. 5 items of concern were tabled, one of those was the delay in improvements offered over two years ago and not implemented.

As for the boot on the other foot, the deal is reciprocal.

The others are correct, Jetstar gets DOJ on QF.

[Soul planet]

http://www.tattoostime.com/images/345/colored-dragon-tattoo-on-right-half-sleeve-for-guys.jpg

com'on guys, respect the dragon

[CYRILJGROOVE]

The fact is the more KA gets into the CX web of gross mismanagement the worse off the KA staff will be. How long do you think the office wallers will allow 10 weeks leave to remain, all the trimmings will be taken away to line the pockets of the managers meeting their budgets, KPI's and general glee in sticking it to staff.

Rostering agreements will be torn up, sign or be fired is an old chestnut, oh and we have lost confidence in you is another oldie but goodie. You will be immersed in the horrible CX rostering chaos with all its downside.

Any thing they don't like and can take from you they will, with no second thought. At least some CX pilots have first world protections in in some juristictions

In Hong Kong we have to rely on policy that can be amended from time to time hence allowing the staff travel back door shafting of CX staff with little legal recourse.

Pandora's box ??

[scavengepump]

lowkoon et al -

You can spin your argument any which way you like, but deep down you know this is wrong. The DPA however, pushed and pushed until they got what they wanted.

Don't muddy the debate with the old CX 'divide and conquer' line.

I wouldn't normally wish any ill on another pilot group, in this case I do.

Mark my words, you will get your shafting from management in due course, and I
for one will not shed a tear.

[Lowkoon]

Oh we know its coming, why do you think the offer is for 12 months time, not for now? It is simple, it is so they can threaten to remove the carrot at will over a time where they have bigger plans.

The answer is in all the posts previous. Have you or anyone else ever worked for a company that has NO aircraft orders, and is adding NO new destinations, and NO ONE is leaving, yet the time to command is 18 months or less? Odd isn't it? Something in the wind right? And why are they adding training captains at a similarly impressive rate with no growth plans? Starting to ring alarm bells yet?

Want me to spell it out further? Is there another pilot body in the 'group' that is in desperate need of Airbus training? Need a hint? Ok, so when would the KA group support your industrial action? If we were both in CC and cooperating maybe? When would the pilot body not support your actions? When we are excluded from the 'Group' perhaps, or even better for the company, when we are squabbling over something relatively inconsequential manufactured by the management? Starting to get the idea I hope? If it wasnt a managed event, why dont they just give us priority 25 now? The answer is simple, so they can threaten to take it away, when dealing with us, or offer to remove it when dealing with you. It has a lot more value to them now, in a period when they are expecting a fight.

The timing is remarkable as we touched on earlier, but go for it, keep hating on the donkey, its exactly what they want.

What is the bet KA is now approached to do CX upgrade training officially now, once the divide between us has artificially widened? While you are at it ask your QF mates whether they wish they had the JQ guys onside or offside from the start, particularly when it came to the 787 introduction? Plenty of precedence for it if you care to look.

[scavengepump]

With that long winded piece you've just confirmed my point in my previous post.
And by the way, this change is not 'inconsequential' to myself or my colleagues! How dare you!

[Gnadenburg]

You are still missing the point, they are not KA staff, they are ex-KA staff that are now CX staff and are ENTITLED to CX benefits like other CX staff. There is also ex-KA staff at HK Airlines, that does not give current KA staff any implied rights to any benefit at HK Airlines.

Sorry. You've missed the point. Let's work backwards from an answer.

Ex-KA staff for admin synergies were integrated into CX with staff travel benefits based on their KA date of joining. Pilots too(?). So you said nothing when a swagger of admin, managers and pilots were given staff travel benefits based on dates of joining back to 1985?

You've been around long enough to know this is a contrast of principles.


scavengepump

It's easy to bring your best mettle out when attacking pilots. It's not just the "spiky haired brigade" now you can blame your woes on another group. KA pilots are getting shafted. Tabled at the EGM were five issues.

Can I ask why you said nothing when KA pilots and office staff who opted to "join" CX for admin synergies brought along DOJ back to 1985?

.

[Soul planet]

https://40.media.tumblr.com/640b1b8b8278f7e6deeea51ec761b462/tumblr_nmg9xhK8oL1rlpicfo1_500.jpg

[Lowkoon]

Taking an empty seat on an aircraft is relatively inconsequential to the ****e that would rain down if we were to start doing your upgrade training to dilute your industrial action in my humble opinion.

I hope in 12 months time you can say I am wrong.

Do I think that a captain that has flown for KA for the entire period that CX has been invested in KA has contributed more to CX bottom line than a guy fresh from Adelaide? Yes I do. Should that be recognised in his staff travel code? Yes i think it should. Should the SO bump him? No, I don't think so. You think otherwise? "How dare you!" :hmm:

[404 Titan]

Lowkoon

I have heard the same from CX trainers that KA is being geared up to do our training and I agree it is a much bigger and important fight we must both fight against. The question I would like to ask is the DPA willing to put a training ban in place and go into CC to enforce it?

Now from a CX captains point of view you need to look at what the change to staff travel has done on a total CX group level. Irrespective whether KA offered or the DPA asked for the same boarding priority as CX staff, the fact that the DPA has threatened CC over it, they have committed the golden industrial mortal sin of demanding something that will disadvantage others in the group. := If it was simply a case of CX/KA offering it we probably wouldn't be having this debate especially if the DPA had approached the AOA advising them what was offered.

While I won't play the tit for tat game that CX management want us to play, I am disappointed at how the DPA and some of my friends at KA have gone about this. Friends don't do this.

[Gnadenburg]

Are all your expectations from "friends" so one sided ?

KA pilots go out on a limb for "us" but we are OK that a new joining KA admin staff bumps you off a flight and " to the bottom of the list, it's a take over not a merger " rant.

And what about KA Taiwanese flights? What industrial action will you be taking my friend ?

[Bill Smith]

http://www.oneworldpilots.org/

[404 Titan]

Gnadenburg

Are all your expectations from "friends" so one sided ?

With all due respect we never asked or were offered KA staff travel at the same boarding priority as KA staff. I certainly wouldn't threaten CC over it behind the DPA's back. :=

KA pilots go out on a limb for "us" but we are OK that a new joining KA admin staff bumps you off a flight and " to the bottom of the list, it's a take over not a merger " rant.


No I'm not OK with it but it was done quietly by CX and the first we found out about it was months after the event. Also it wasn't pushed by any union. CX just made them CX employees.

Regarding us doing your Taiwanese flights? You can have back if you want. I didn't ask for them and the AOA certainly didn't ask for them or threaten to go into CC to get them.

As I said if it was simply a case of CX/KA changing the boarding priorities we wouldn't be having this argument with you. The very fact the DPA actively pushed for it and threaten CC over it knowing full well it would disadvantage others in the CX group is what makes some of us disappointed with our friends in KA and the DPA. Friends don't do that, ever.

[404 Titan]

Gnadenburg

The point I'm making is that CX/KA and Swire were going to do this anyway. Swire actually wants common boarding priority for all Swire companies. The fact that it was offered in negotiations was deliberate to divide us. The fact that the DPA didn't recognise this is what is disappointing to us. We should all be fighting for the same cause but the company has yet again used the industrial wedge to divide us. Can't you see this?

[Terrain Terrain]

The very fact the DPA actively pushed for it

Jeez there's a lot of cherry picking going on here. CX offered this to the pilot group, unsolicited, as an inducement to get us to sign the latest pay scale. It got us over the line, reluctantly. We signed, job done. Right?

No. In classic fashion, they reneged. Despite issuing us lots of pretty tables and FAQ's that outlined everything that was released again last week, over 2 years later, they said they changed their mind. Now we have a problem. We took them to task in the exact way you are for their broken promises to you. This culminated in a vote for CC over 5 items that we have been lied to or stonewalled over, of which staff travel was one.

If we had received DOJ on CX without you receiving same you bet you're ass I'd be saying it's not right and turning it down. But that's not the case. We've gone to a single, unified, group-wide staff travel system, pure DOJ. If the airlines I've looked into are anything to go by, this is industry standard. Just as your commuters have been disadvantaged, so have ours. But they've been farhqued by a much bigger pineapple. Cos there's now 20,000+ extra staff that are now between them and seeing their familes in Phuket, Bali, Penang, etc.

I understand that among the expatriate pilots, it's a disadvantage because your personal travel habits don't benefit from this change. But for the other 22,000 staff that like slurping seafood in Okinawa or Dan Dan Noodles in Shanghai, it's a win.

So the irony kinda strikes me. You want the KA pilots to take a hit for the team, again, but you won't put your own CX group before yourselves (pilots)? It's alright Jack, I'm ok!

<Note: References to 'you' refer to the pilot group as a whole, not necessarily yourself 404. I rarely come on here but IIRC, you're one of the rare, reasoned, moderate ones, hence my taking the time to reply and not skipping over it like the other vitriolic bile that unfortunately graces these pages>

Re post above: While I can't speak for the present committee, I can't imagine they'd differ from those past that made attempt after attempt to engage with the AOA. But ultimately, they were dismissed. "We are not going to make a change that disadvantages a single AOA member" was a response I was quoted by a committee member. So yet again, the needs of the few were put ahead of the needs of the many. I'd like nothing more than a united stand against management by our combined pilot groups. There's a ****storm coming and it's not going to be nice for either of us. The company is gearing up to play us off against one another, with toys being placed in the cot of whichever sibling has favour with mummy at the time. Our collective defense against that is a united stand but you guys can't even unite your own, let alone work with your relatives. When you sort your **** out, we'll be here. >80% pilot membership & >75% voting in the room on that night.

[Soul planet]

Rumor is that some Kitty destinations might be transferred to Dragon in the future. True or False?

Rumor is that policy will be changing soon for calling in "sick". True or False?

I have never seen so much changes happening within these three years in other carriers. Are we trying too hard?

[Gnadenburg]

404

Has there really been a concern or sincerity from your side toward KA pilots as the tone of your posts suggests ? On any issue ? I've been flabbergasted with the lack of serious bonding between the two unions and I'd prefer this discussion offline. It's embroiled with some underhanded politics as well as a foolish arrogance.

Staff travel was offered out of the blue with a below par pay offer. Nominees, access to our own freight discounts and yours, baggage allowances and the like were primary issues along with us continuously sinking in priority with every new joiner to the Group- except those that joined the facade that is KA or KA Dragon or whatever it is now as aircrew.

Along with other EGM tabled issues the staff travel offer wasn't honored. Hence CC.

Demographically, if you look at CX's take-over date, the effect to expatriate pilot like yourself seemed modest minus the hooh-bloody-hah you'd expect from a legacy attitude. I now see FOC's the complication.

But the change last year in staff travel policy that was swayed toward other employees, such as office staff, and in combination with fanfares and our continuously sinking Group priority, staff travel is driving toward the unusable. So what and F&*^ you was the attitude and certainly not the friendly tone of your posts.

[Gnadenburg]

Rumor is that some Kitty destinations might be transferred to Dragon in the future. True or False?

Some in Japan and Indonesia according to F/A's.

And let's face it. Japan is the local staff travel phenomenon .

[404 Titan]

Terrain Terrain

I see where you’re coming from but I think you have missed the point. CX/KA deliberately offered this to you knowing full well you would push for it if they “dragged” it out. Just like the office staff at KA that overnight miraculously became CX employees they could have just changed the staff travel policy. It isn’t a COS item and isn’t negotiated. It’s company policy that can be changed whenever the company wants. Quite frankly I’m surprised the company didn’t change the policy earlier but they obviously had a plan and right now we are all falling into it. Unfortunately the DPA here were the first to fall for it and now we are all falling for it and it needs to stop. I’m disappointed how this has played out but I’m still friends with my mates in KA and won’t be changing how I release my jump seats and I certainly hope this doesn’t fracture the good working relationship between the DPA and AOA because right now we need each other more than ever to fight what is about to come down the pipe line at us.

[scavengepump]

What is not being debated here is what CX management may or may not do to the CX/KA pilot body in the future. Citing that in your arguments is a smokescreen.
This is all about the injustice (or win) in regards to the change in staff travel boarding priority.
The KA side like to often quote 'industry standard'
Ok then I'll indulge you there by using Qantas/Jetstar/Impulse as an example of 'industry standard' and how it applies here -
A pilot joins Impulse Airlines in 1994 and subsequently by default, Qantaslink in 2001 and then Jetstar in 2004, courtesy of Qantas BUYING Impulse in 2001.
This pilot does not hold staff travel DOJ on Qantas mainline of 1994 but 2001.
ie. The year Qantas bought Impulse.
What year did Cathay BUY Dragon?
The absolute maximum staff travel DOJ any current KA employees who joined KA prior to 2006 is 2006.
That is 'industry standard'.

[404 Titan]

Gnadenburg

I'm more than happy to discuss this with you privately. I agree there is politics going on here which are unhelpful.

The thing with Staff travel as I’ve explained is it isn’t a COS item and therefore isn’t negotiated. If it was offered at negotiations did the DPA ask if it was going to be part of your COS? If they didn’t then it was a lapse on their part. If they did and it was yes my next question to the company negotiators would have been how can it be when for every other CX group employee it is company policy? Staff travel is company policy and will never be relinquished by the company into any of our COS, period. The DPA’s negotiators should have realised this as soon as it was offered.

[S22]

It depends on your perspective. It's not a win for our guys commuting on our network. It might be a win for some of the CX guys and local staff who have family in the PRC or KA commuters to Australia.
Overall it's divisive. As an aside over 50% of our pilots have less than 5 years service they aren't be going to be bumping many people anytime soon.
if you really feel strongly about it get your unions lined up and go for it. it's been pulled once before;)

[404 Titan]

scavengepump

What is not being debated here is what CX management may or may not do to the CX/KA pilot body in the future.

I was alluding to that when I wrote:

I certainly hope this doesn’t fracture the good working relationship between the DPA and AOA because right now we need each other more than ever to fight what is about to come down the pipe line at us.

As for the QF/JQ bit they do get the same boarding priority but I will have to check with my mates in QF if what you have said about DOJ is correct. I'm not doubting you just want to check to facts before I discuss it here.

[GMEDX]

Rumour is that 6 more 330 are to go across to Cathay Dragon this year. The rebranding helps to justify this, they will be operated on regional routes, and on routes that are of most importance to the majority of Group employees and local commuters for ST. The main reason the priorities have been changed has nothing to do with pleasing either group of expat pilots.
There is no training ban at KA and now no threat of CC, they are expanding the training dept. DEFOs are getting command in 12-18 months. I don't think CX pilots will be trained at KA, it is easier to let expansion happen at Cathay Dragon. Pacific for long haul, Dragon for regional.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it is just my take on where we are heading.

[Dan Winterland]

This argument about how many jumpseat requests you have from CX staff is completely irrelevant.


No it's not. It's indicative of how many CX staff do use KA flights for staff travel.

I doubt you get a huge jumpseat demand for Fuzhou, Chongqing, or Wuhan, so the flights you are probably quoting are PEN and HKT

Just because you don't want to fly to mainland China, it doesn't mean other CX employees don't. Many CX cabin staff originate from mainland cities and we even get some CX pilots going to Beijing, Guilin, Kunming and Xian for tourism. As for PEN and HKT, you can add CNX, BKI, OKA and DPS, along with all our Japan and Taiwan ports for popular staff destinations. And in future, you can probably add a few more CX Asian ports which seem destined to come KA's way.

[JY9024]

In regards to expanding the training department, I haven't seen any changes here for a long time now. Don't think this is true.

[Interested_Party]

The plan is for more expansion at Cathay Dragon. The training will be at KA and, for now, CX training capacity can cope with the introduction of the A350. The COS’s will allow CX pilots to be trained at KA and this is planned for JFO upgrades and some Captain upgrades by pilots willing to do so from CX to KA on secondment.

Integration of the ASLs is also planned to be before the end of 2016.

[drfaust]

And where would you have gotten that information? Considering this thread, I'm not so sure I'd be overly excited going across for fear of being keelhauled.

Anyway, it's pretty clear why the DPA pushed when they did for anyone that cares to look.

[Some How I'm Tired]

Swire has played this beautifully.

1. They need KA to help train CX pilots due to the current situation.

2. They give KA Priority 25 to stop them going into Contract Compliance so the above will happen.

But here's the best bit:

KA can't get Priority 25 until January 2017!!

WHY wait a year????

Here's the answer:

They now have 11 months to make sure that the DPA toes the party line and starts training CX pilots (when they sort out the minutiae). Should they choose not to, then no P25!! Simple!

I know for a fact that JT has already agreed that KA can train CX pilots. It's just a matter of time.

So, as I said, well played Swire. Turn the CX and KA pilots against each other (for zero cost), and then gain a way to train your way out of your own home-grown mess.

Think about it guys. We need each other to help each other. Let's be mature about this. Stop attacking each other. We both have lots to lose.

P.S. As a commuter, I'm not happy with what has just occurred, however I can see the long game. For that reason I WILL NOT accuse or attack my KA colleagues (of which I have many), and will keep allocating J/S's the way I always have (fairly and without prejudice).

[TSIO540]

I have been very fortunate with Jump seats on CX, and since my command I have returned the favour at every opportunity for flight crew first, then anyone else in the order I receive the requests. You guys are always welcome on my flight deck, I hope this doesn't change for us on CX.

I don't think that a cleaner should be on the same boarding priority as cockpit crew so we should be fighting for that in stead of fighting each other IMHO.

[tsimbeit]

SWH

How many SO's were employed by CX when Cathay and Swire acquired a controlling stake and took over the management of Dragonair in January 1990.
May I guess, some of them were probably not even born 26 years ago.

Please tell us, you seem to know.

[swh]

"Please tell us, you seem to know."

No Idea of the exact number, around 3200 pilots on the CX ASL today, I would guess 2/3 of them were employed as SOs.

In the early years SOs were not employed by CX, they were on contract. If you want to push the issue, that is going to cause a lot more bother with DOJ and the ASL.

[404 Titan]

swh

I think we all and I mean we all need to tone it down. There is an elephant in the room but we are looking at the mouse. For the record I get all that you are saying but it doesn’t help our cause. It infact makes it worse.

Swire already have higher board priority. You honestly thought they were going to do anything that would impact their conditions?

I know some Swire employees get better staff travel than we do but I was talking about Swire companies like Haeco, HAS, Swire Bottlers, and Vogue etc. Thousands of Swire company employees with PRI 25 isn’t a good thing.

I would like to know more. I remember getting a QF flight back when we had paper tickets. I had a higher boarding priority than a Jetstar pilot. When I have flown Jetstar in the past, there was no boarding priority, it was whoever registers first not DOJ. Unlike QF, for JQ I had to call the Philippines call centre to list.

I can guarantee from my mate in QF that they have the same boarding priority as a QF employee and there by default other airline staff have a lower priority. I’m still waiting though for an answer on the DOJ issue but he suspects it’s 2001 when QF bought Impulse which later morphed in Jetstar. Hopefully I’ll get a 100% accurate answer in the next few days after he has asked a few questions.

[RAT Management]

Who Cares. You front up to the flight you either get on or you don't. There have never been guarantees. If you want guarantees by the full fare ticket. I feel for commuters but hey they made the "choice". All conditions are being systematically flushed away. There is nothing you can do about it other than vote with your feet.

[Lowkoon]

SWH, wow, where do i start?

Selfish? For thinking a 20 year captain should be recognised for service to the "Group" and should be entitled to more than someone who has served for two rosters? Ok, then I am selfish. Yes i earn more than the SO, and for good reason. My spiky hair has long gone, my 4 bars are at best bronze, not gold anymore, and I wear the blame as Captain. if you think SOs should get command pay, take it up with your union. I wish you well with that. Years of service should be recognised, as selfish as that may seem to you. Ivan Chu earns more than me, but he gets on an aircraft ahead of me. Remuneration and boarding priority appear to be inversely proportional?? Or does that make Ivan just incredibly selfish? :confused:

The staff travel I signed up on was in my COS, thanks for asking. That was stripped with a "ONCE ONLY, NEVER TO BE REPEATED OFFER" that we couldn't resist. Sound familiar?

My staff travel benefits are better than the SOs? No, my benefits are exactly the same as the SOs, I am just a different rank. When that SO is a captain, our benefits will be identical. The identical agreement written on exactly the same piece of paper.

Leave entitlements and travel allowance are COS ITEMS. If you want improvements to your cos, see your union.

I respect my SOs enough to give them sectors and let them land the aircraft, how does that compare to your 'respect' for them?

What staff travel entitlements did they join on? Ask them, they agreed to it, i have never read their contract.

FOs and Sos being fired because they cant get on flights... We cant get on full flights either, And we would get sacked too for missing a duty because we were relying on staff travel to get back. No different there.

[furrymuff]

When Thomas Cook bought My Travel in the UK in 2007, the pilots of MyTravel were integrated into TCX based on their DOJ even tho it disadvantaged many TCX FO's close to command. This was deemed the only fair, reasonable and legal way to handle the pilot body and is industry standard (certainly in EU) I'm afraid.

swh - what your now discussing is your working contract not staff travel, if you don't like the contract you signed speak to your Union don't get wound up over other pilots contracts it's what CX want. BTW most KA guys will have their travel fund cut significantly if this goes tho..

I think we have more issues coming to worry about and I'm with 404 etc that we need to stand together.

[swh]

When Thomas Cook bought My Travel in the UK in 2007, the pilots of MyTravel were integrated into TCX based on their DOJ even tho it disadvantaged many TCX FO's close to command.

MyTravel does not exist, everyone works under the Thomas Cook AOC. KA did not merge with CX, they retained their own airline, and own conditions of service.

You do not work for CX.

swh - what your now discussing is your working contract not staff travel, if you don't like the contract you signed speak to your Union don't get wound up over other pilots contracts it's what CX want. BTW most KA guys will have their travel fund cut significantly if this goes tho..

The reason why KA had a travel fund is because the airline that could return the officer back to their home port, and the travel fund was to enable them to to return the their home port full fare free of charge.

CX do not have a travel fund, we have FOCs, which is supposed to get us back to our port FOC. The FOC however is not free nor does it guarantee class of travel, all fees and taxes are paid by the officer. CN are downgraded to Y even when fully confirmed 4B/11B without compensation or return of the FOC. The reason a CN may be downgraded is to accommodate a KA pilot that is on a full fare ticket paid for by their travel fund, and with the CN being offloaded, and FO/SO also on a confirmed FOC could be offloaded.

KA retain their travel fund, plus FOCs, at the detriment of CX pilots.

Its nice how yourself and your fellow pilots basically go tell us to F.O. because something is not in our contract. But you are happy to take something which is not in your contract at our detriment.

[Terrain Terrain]

Keep going swh

Let's see how much more empathy and support for CX pilots from within KA you can destroy.

Or perhaps this is one big pantomime? Perhaps you're a satirical caricature of a bitter and twisted CX pilot, trying to emulate The Management but only succeeding in emulating a malignant tumor.

Given where you are and where you're headed, the time for a vote on an AOA request for DPA help in taking a united stand against the company is rapidly approaching. You can bet your arse that your posts will be brought out by those arguing against the motion.

[S22]

err excuse me-since CX "imposed" the standard contract on KA the travel fund has gone.
Over 50% of the pilots who are on the "C scale" plus the many local B scale do not get a travel fund.:ugh:

[Babbalito]

Just to amplify S22's comment:

Standard Contract (C scale) pilots, expat and local alike, do not receive any travel fund whatsoever.

[scavengepump]

Terrain

Don't lecture us about unity when your DPA, and people like yourself are tripping over themselves to defend this indefensible change to staff travel.

Your union, and those that supported Contract Compliance should management not grant you Pri 25 (amongst other things on your wish list), would have known full well that if and when CX granted your request, then all hell would broke loose on our side - which it has. YOU, out of your own self interest and greed, just facilitated management in driving in the wedge.

Had this change just come out of nowhere then yes, we'd still be angry, but with management alone.

Quit the sanctimony about unity and just admit you've had a HUGE undeserved win at our expense.

Have a think about it.

[Gnadenburg]

So hang on again , what did you say or do when KA staff and pilots took their 1985 + DOJ with them to CX a few years ago? You did nothing ! You blamed the spikey hair brigade for your woes and now it's KA pilots .

The big CC items for me are medical and my promised acess to freight which between them were costly broken promises .

The wedge was driven by your Union telling us to f$&) off on the very grey issue of staff travel and don't BS me any different .

[Soul planet]

It is time for the HKAOA and DPA merge and work at one entity. The companies have already joined forces. So should we.


+1
YES!!!

[Flying Clog]

+2.

Too bluddy right :ok:

[777300ER]

+3

Balls+Unity=Success

[Lowkoon]

SWH, personal attacks for having a different opinion, or an alternative view to yours? Really?

Ok then....

"Maaaate, you are right! It was me down the plaza! i nearly didn't recognise you! But when I saw that Cathay tracksuit, and your Tan RM Williams and your Rayban Aviators and your bejewelled Brietling to dazzle the ladies, it could only be you! The way you high fived the Cathay guys and low fived the KA guys, well, you really showed them huh???"

Admittedly not very productive, but I can see how you got your jollies out of it. :ok:

[DigitalPilot]

:ugh: Really what's next? :* Send CX pilots to Cathay Dragon for training on the Airbus fleet because CX doesn't have enough trainers!!!

[swh]

What differance of opinion ?

You don't work for CX, you work for KA.

Your COS is still with KA, and that had provisions in it that already compensated you for not working for an airline that can take you to your home port. Your COS never gave you boarding priority with CX.

The DPA push with the threat to go into contract compliance over something that is not in your contract is inexcusable. It has significant ramifications for CX employees.

I don't give a crap about travelling on KA and I have no sympathy for the CX staff who want to. CX staff don't work for KA, KA staff should have priority on their own airline, just like CX staff should have priority over every other airline when travelling on CX.

[Bangaluru]

Despite my misspelled handle I work for CX and I want to voice my support for swh et al. Same boarding priority is BS. It p1sses me off that Dragonair staff can bump me off my airline as well as receiving a long list of other conditions better than mine. Not only that, but they get a choice! Where's my choice? That travel fund and FOCs and the same boarding priority is ridiculous.

What, may I ask, has the AOA done about this farce? Nothing... There's a surprise.

And I get told how fair it is. :yuk: On what possible grounds could Dragonair staff justify asking for (and threatening tantrums over) receiving a higher boarding priority on (as someone else said) an airline they don't work for?

One upside: At least everyone in CX now knows that Dragonair pilots get paid more than CX pilots!

[airdualbleedfault]

L O bloody L, I've gone though 2 bags of popcorn and a 10 pack of jack and cokes reading this dribble, thanks guys :ok:

[White None]

swh - if you really are gonna continue in this vein, believing you are fighting for, or in any way acting as the voice of 'most' CX Flightcrew, please would you mind sodding off from this thread and use PMs to the other protagonists. If on the other hand you are doing it to amaze people with your prose and boost your Ego then, newsflash, you're making a prick of yourself, irrespective of the scattered truisms which I do recognise are amongst the ranting. You have the diplomacy skills of Combover Trump - IMHO.

[S22]

I find it less than credible that Swire/CX directors were awaiting the outcome of the DPA meeting before implementing a group wide policy the next morning.

To imagine that they were "scared" of upsetting 500 employees vs 23,000 doesn't seem their style.

[kenfoggo]

Just to recap.

Having worked for Cathay for twenty years when I check in to fly rebated travel on the airline for which I work, I can be off loaded by staff from ANOTHER airline?

In what universe can anyone, including Management , say that this is fair?

[Terrain Terrain]

kenfoggo

Group
/ɡruːp/ noun

1: A collection of individuals who have regular contact and frequent interaction, mutual influence, common feeling of camaraderie, and who work together to achieve a common set of goals (businessdictionary.com)

Note: degrees of camaraderie may vary between individuals

2: When more than 2 people engage in sexual activity, this can include straight, lesbian, and gay groups. Also, abbreviated as "GS" (urbandictionary.com)

I'm 'thinking' it's definition 1 that applies but I can't be sure, especially if you live in DB.

[ACMS]

Yep, and it's only the Dragonair crew that could possibly try and justify this decision.......

[whatsforlunch]

I am not transferring to the CX scheme.

I would rather keep all the travel allowance and choose flights that are a near certainty of getting on, pay full fare for other flights.

The total sectors are reduced to 48 for all family in your travel pool. That is sectors not return trips.

I am not 100% sure of these items just yet, but reading the info it seems to be the case. I actually think the KA scheme is better than CX.

[kenfoggo]

Terrain Terrain- what are you? 12? Grow up and realise what is happening, not just to CX but also to KA.

[JY9024]

Ok so it's quite clear that the Australian Cx Pilots in particular are all against this change and I can understand why, how about some useful ideas on what is a fair compromise for all demographic groups.

[Epic 76]

Oh, so it's a compromise you want now?

A compromise was what was offered to the AOA years ago. DOJ or DOM, whichever came later. "Go shove your head up a dead bears bum" was the response, or words to that effect.

That horse has bolted. Though if this change is the requisite kick up the arse to get some cooperation between the two groups happening then I'm all for it.

By it's very nature, compromise requires some individuals to make sacrifices so that the greater group can prosper. This is something your side of the fence has had great difficulty with to date. And looking at the current levels of non-compliance with contract compliance, still do.

[Gnadenburg]

And I get told how fair it is. On what possible grounds could Dragonair staff justify asking for (and threatening tantrums over) receiving a higher boarding priority on (as someone else said) an airline they don't work for?

You haven't the facts and it's pretty grey in a lot of areas.

Out of the blue we were offered staff travel improvements including access to our own airline for ID freight and increased nominees.

And the back drop to all this is the AOA attitude, in whatever shape or form it was on the day, telling us to f%%$ off. A strategic blunder and the negligible demographic effects were made very clear to the AOA. And on reflection, considering the very high attrition of KA expatriate pilots in the contract compliance period up to and following CX's buy out of KA, some of your union leadership should be shot at dawn.

Not forgetting of course, the bellows from the B scale drinking holes from Staunton St to the DB Plaza that "It's a f#$@&%$ take-over , not a merger "- all the while KA staff were being re-positioned into the group with their DOJ at KA back to May 1985 for staff travel.

And what we have now is the "Cathay Staff Travel Scheme". Blamed by one dwindling expatriate group on another dwindling expatriate group.

And back to your original question. I was promised out of the blue, ID freight on CX and KA, and I'd positioned myself with a few rows of vines in Chianti and an organic market garden market in Ranau on the foothills of BKI to nourish the family, and was pretty upset at the broken promise and was happy to pursue the industrial option.

[fire wall]

A couple of points if I may:
1. The AOA did not tell the DPA to $£@k off, or anything approaching such. I should know as I was on the CX Gen Committee at the time so just because some muppet told you this in the bar does not make it fact.
2. Most of my mates at KA will not be taking this crap deal because it financially disadvantages them.
3. Both KA and CX staff need to recognise that this is the first shot in a war which will adversely affect both flight crew demographics. I foresee the next "alignment" being a common seniority list as a way for the 7 th floor residents to get around the CX scope clause, and I strongly suggest you have a read of the scope clause in your COS for this very reason.
This will then allow training by KA staff of Cx crews on the A330 (how I do not know as all my KA trainer mates are flat out as it is) and eventually CX FO's will be offered KA commands to elleviate the lack of viable and experienced KA FO's to move seats. Those of you that do not recognise the push for this "upgrade" to be on local terms don't belong behind the wheel of a car let alone an aircraft.

Please digest the above and recognise we (both KA and Cx) are all under attack and how best we can prevent this shredding of our careers.

Ive been here long enough for this new staff travel change to have little if any effect on me however I still do not think it right, and for the hot headed amongst you nor do ALL of my KA mates.

I wise person would be casting an eye on the end game.

[mngmt mole]

Fire Wall. Great post. You are correct in your assessment of the situation. CX management have long ago crossed the line of morality and integrity. Their main goal is to divide and weaken all groups, and on present evidence they are succeeding. I don't dislike my KA colleagues. I do dislike a management who has no other goal other than to destroy our profession and enrich their small circle of self-absorbed and self righteous brethren. We need to calmly enact a strategy that quietly and slowly strangles them. We need to unite, identify a common strategy and then engage the real enemy. Fighting amongst ourselves will surely advance the overall destruction of ALL our careers. I would point out for the benefit of the KA staff, CX management will surely take far more away from you than they are deceptively offering. Fact.

[Some How I'm Tired]

Good posts fire wall and mngmt mole.

This is exactly what is going on.

Whilst we squabble, they sit around sipping cognac and laughing their butts off.

[Sea Eggs]

There's been on and off talk about "seconding" the local cadets to KA until they are qualified to move back as F/Os.

[2 cents]

Kenfoggo,

Just to recap.

Having worked for Cathay for twenty years when I check in to fly rebated travel on the airline for which I work, I can be off loaded by staff from ANOTHER airline?


Yep. Except it's worse. There are people that haven't even joined Dragonair yet that are going to bump you. Imagine in a few years time you're in SYD standing by for J class trying to get back to HK. A new KA captain, been in the company say 3 years, shows up with his wife and kids and his waitlisted PRI 11 FOC's. His kids are going to bump you out of J class, and maybe off the flight. Thanks for your 25 years of service.

This is not personal. I also have lots of Dragonair friends and understand the crap they've been through in recent years, however there is no denying this whole thing is grossly unfair to CX staff.

[Dan Winterland]

The AOA did not tell the DPA to $£@k off, or anything approaching such. I should know as I was on the CX Gen Committee at the time so just because some muppet told you this in the bar does not make it fact

However, it is true that in recent years, the AOA have not been willing to enter dialogue with the DPA committee. They seemed to have been giving the impression that there was little of interest to their members going on in KA. How wrong they were. They have known about the group staff travel scheme since it was first offered.

[Weary traveller]

Well, with the tone of this thread regaining some sense of civility, as a KA pilot, I would like to add that this pri 25 issue isn’t due to be introduced until Jan 2017. It’s been presented to us as a group travel scheme to replace our KA scheme. Is that not enough time for the DPA and AOA to get together and modify it into a ‘variation on a theme’ that is mutually acceptable to all? Put “that” option to the company with both pilot groups behind it and, by default, present it in a united front that can also be used to battle the bigger issues “together” that are no doubt hidden behind the corner? As a number of other KA blokes have said here, the pri 25 item has never been on my personal wish list. If the flight is full, it’s full. Plus, I have some empathy for the perspective of the CX chaps here. Besides, I value the generous JS approvals provided by my CX colleagues far more highly than pri 25.

[JY9024]

Someone mentioned on Yammar that we should have in place a system that protects ones FOC's on there respective airline. ie CX staff get p11 on CX and KA get p12 and vis versa..
P25 for the rest of the group on either airline for normal staff travel.
Step in the right direction??

[Shutterbug]

Swire types must be soaking their pants with joyjuice over threads like this. Divide and conquer squared. Now they're dividing and dividing and conquering.... *sigh*..........

Don't play into their hands people. It's our choice to treat each other as allies with a common problem, or get bogged down in sheer pettiness that benefits no one except the people who decided to coral us all into our own little playpens in the first place.

[ACMS]

Nup.

I don't care how you slice up the pineapple it still hurts....:mad:

[Lowkoon]

66305, for your first post since 2012, I have got to hand it to you. :D

Appreciate the perspective.

We have no control over a non COS item, you are 100% correct.

KA in my humble opinion has been limited by CX ownership, not just freight side being shut down, but the pax fleet lost serious expansion momentum too, the AUS expansion that was stopped immediately springs to mind. The only investment in a decade has been the Turkish airlines paint job, but you are spot on, the oncarriage both ways is significant, and supposedly will increase now that we are looking less KA and more CX according to Ivan. Lets see how that works out. "Change is in the air" or so he says.

But a genuine thanks for your perspective and balanced view.

[guria]

This whole staff travel 'merge' simply fails the common sense test. No management speak will change that.

We are airlines in the Cathay Pacific group, yes, but we are different airlines with different AOC's, with different crew and cabin crew on different employment contracts. The fact we do so collectively for the Swire Group is a business construct.

This is a divisive act which augers badly for more nasty divisive acts to follow.

Otherwise why do it?

[Epic 76]

We are airlines in the Cathay Pacific group, yes, but we are different airlines with different AOC's, with different crew and cabin crew on different employment contracts. The fact we do so collectively for the Swire Group is a business construct.

{Virgin Blue/V Australia/Pacific Blue}[Qantas/Jetstar/Easterns/Sunstate/etc] are airlines in the {Virgin Australia}[Qantas] group, yes, but we are different airlines with different AOC's, with different crew and cabin crew on different employment contracts. The fact we do so collectively for the {Virgin}[Qantas] Group is a business construct.

And the same can be said for so many others. Air France/KLM, Continental/United, British Airways/Iberian, American Airlines/US Airways.

The 'us and them', 'your airline, my airline' argument just doesn't hold up.

As I already have access to both systems, I too stand to lose out, personally. However, I still think it's still the right thing to do. Your 'ugly sister' has been making a disproportionate contribution to the group bottom line for a long time now. Through a set of circumstances not of their own making, the pilots and cabin crew have been left out in the cold while every other employee (dispatchers, catering management, security, cargo, planning, line ops, the lady that pushes the tea trolley during elevensies) have been moved to CX in the exact same role with original DOJ. Aircrew are just the last piece of pie to be swallowed.

For those that rely on staff travel to get home; yes, it's a bitter pill to swallow. But the unpalatability of the medicine bears no relation to its need.

In a perfect world, we would have joined the 2 lists into a Y on date of merger and so many birds would have been killed with one stone. But, both unions had their eye off the ball and now we're where we are.

[Whoosh1999]

I'm intrigued by this pending atrocity!

I presume Curtain, you are referring to the fact that 27000 CX employees and their spouses and their offspring, on their FOC 11s, will be able to muscle in ahead of a 16-year captain on his own airline's aircraft trying to get home as a commuter to his own family in HKT, BKI or a myriad of other ports?

:ugh::ugh:

This is a Group Staff Travel Scheme. I'm amazed that some of you honestly think the DPA holds so much sway over the very senior managers in CX that had them quaking in their boots at the whisper of KA going into contract compliance! Whilst the DPAC are probably flattered by that thought, I think that it is as far away from reality as it is that the remaining 2500 folk left in KA will all use their FOC 11s to jump on CX flights to SYD.

Well over 70% of the Group's staff are Chinese. Ergo, it is logical that some 20000 CX staff will be welcoming the chance to get home to their home cities with a degree of certainty.

All of us, both CX and KA are left in a lose/lose situation. We all have a choice. We can chose to stay on the current schemes, such as they are, which will still affect your boarding priority regardless, or we can elect to sign to the new Group Travel Scheme, which will also have boarding priority issues and for a very small number, some 200, will cost them money too.

Finally, the immaturity of those who threaten to block KA pilots from their jumpseats because of this Group announcement, is just that. I will continue to issue jumpseats to my CX colleagues in the same way as I have always. CX pilots will always get a seat on my flight deck if asked.

[swh]

I presume Curtain, you are referring to the fact that 27000 CX employees and their spouses and their offspring, on their FOC 11s, will be able to muscle in ahead of a 16-year captain on his own airline's aircraft trying to get home as a commuter to his own family in HKT, BKI or a myriad of other ports?

That is fundamentally wrong, KA staff should have priority on their own airline.

[routetuner]

You are not Cathay pacific.
You are not welcome on OUR P25. DOJ.
You negotiated with CX when we(AOA) are in CC with CX- that makes you a scab. Fark off twats!

[Lowkoon]

Plenty of 89ers in KA who would want to "re-educate you" for that comment root tuner. We were given this pri25 over 2 years ago now, (without asking for it). You weren't in CC then. And we never asked for it. If you are going to use the "S' word you had better get your facts straight. Instead save the S word for those of your own group that seek to damage your industrial action from within.

[White None]

Can I apologise to you Dragons for Route Tuner - whatever his position, he's talking like a child who needs a spanking, and we would like to converse with you either in or out of agreement like adults. Now where were we....

[betpump5]

Now where were we....

You forgot already? Well we were discussing further degradation to our conditions. Regardless whether you are a regular commuter to Aussieland or a stay at home local, this is another pineapple in the backside for CX staff.

It amazes me how the KA clowns AS WELL AS the CX clowns on here try to rationalise the decision with what they think are good arguments for and against.

We are pilots and unlike our cafe latte drinking colleagues, we should look at the big picture. I'll paint it for you. A staff from a wannabe Turkish airline can bump you off from your own airline.

Rest assured this will be fought, most probably lost, but fought none the less. And it doesn't require an emergency focus night, sipping luke warm coffee to decide that. I believe a motion is currently being drafted.

[Gnadenburg]

1. The AOA did not tell the DPA to $£@k off, or anything approaching such.

What was the AOA's proposition to KA pilots? I recall it was rather expedient and involved taking all wide-body expansion and bottom of the list seniority?

What mugs KA pilots would have been to pursue this- we have pilots who joined long after the CX-KA purchase who are now Captains. Those commands should have been your members.

[Gnadenburg]

we should look at the big picture.

You've a firm grasp of the big picture betpump5 - I'd guess the training of your pilots by KA being drafted now with an AOA response around mid-year. You almost had them eh.....

[tsimbeit]

KA has been financially controlled by Swire and Cathay Pacific and 100% managed by Cathay Pacific since January 1990.

The Cathay expansion in the 80's was because of Dragonair, 'the best thing that happened to Cathay was Dragonair', quick command.

Cathay were awarded the long haul routes Dragonair had applied for and CX had to operate them.

Cathay decided to cancel the KA MD-11 long haul orders, KA was the launch customer of that aircraft.

Cathay had to operate as Dragonair into China out of political necessity, most likely survived beyond 1997, the demise of CNAC, by offering the mainland Chinese CNAC owners a steak in Dragonair.

The whole thing has been part of Cathay, except the name for 26 years!

Maybe we should all show the Dragon some respect!

Those are the facts, whether you like it or not.

[Anotherday]

You conveniently neglected to mention it was heading down the toilet in the late 1980s until Cathay stepped in, but let's not let a few facts get in the way of a good story.

If staff travel goes strictly on DOJ then why not have KA commands do the same thing. CX F/Os waiting for command at CX should have the option to take an early command at KA. KA pilots won't mind since we're one big airline and once all the CX pilots have accepted or declined their commands at KA in strict DOJ for both airlines, KA command upgrades could continue.

Surely a happy compromise. Staff travel at DOJ for KA commands at DOJ......

[Epic 76]

As you wish, Anotherday.

But bags not being the one to tell 200+ of your Captains that they're being busted back to FO by your policy.

Good enough for the goose, good enough for the Gander

[anotherbusdriver]

The whole thing is a big ugly stinking mess. It is designed to cause fury and disrupt our ability to band together.

Management actively seek ways in which to divide us, and cause misery in the process.

Look at all the other "no cost" solutions to problems which are extremely divisive, never resolved. Why? It is the design of the game. Keep the teams hating each other for problems which were not caused by them, but disadvantage everyone. Each side blaming the other.

This is all done on purpose to smokescreen us, to get us all in a frenzy, keep us jealous and hateful, and mostly to keep us from joining forces.

Imagine if we spent all of this energy on being cohesive and formulating a united strategy of support for each other?

Let's be clever for a change, can we please?

[Oasis]

Indeed, if the plan is to merge the airlines in the future, it would be smart for the airlines to create a wedge between the different pilot groups, making it hard for the unions to merge.

Divide and conquer, has worked since roman times.

We should get some leadership from the unions to keep our heads cool and prepare for the inevitable merger of pilot groups.

[giggerty]

I wasn't going to add to this but there seems to be a level of hysteria here and I think we need a reality/ fact check. Plus some clarifications.

1. The numbers of KA staff involved make up just over 10% of the total workforce. Therefore, statistically if there are 10 people listed on a flight 1 will be KA.

2. Of those 10%, 85% are local/ regional Asians. Now, I'm not saying locals don't travel widely but the statics do say that the most popular countries on staff travel are Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, and Thailand. All 4 countries are served by both airlines.

3 The remaining employees (340 of them, 1.5%) are expats. Mostly they are British/Irish/European. With Aust/NZ next and then a smattering from Nth American, Africans etc.

4 Of the 340 around 200 have a DOJ prior to 2006. Of the remainder most joined post 2010 as there was no employment 2008/9 due to the GFC.

5.Your chances of being bumped by a KA staff is a sliding scale 10% if you're a new joiner down to nothing if you are very senior ( hardly Armageddon!).

Next. Perception.

Do CX employees perceive the KA crew to be part of CX?

Probably not. There has been virtually no noticeable difference to the operation since the purchase of KA in 2006. KAs inclusion hardly caused a ripple.

Do KA employees perceive themselves part of CX?

Yes, since 2006 everything KA has done has been orchestrated by CX. KAs aircraft, routes, expansion and contraction, frequencies, cabin layout etc etc. we do all our training at Cathay City. CX even introduced some weird Airbus/ Boeing/ McDonald Douglas hybrid checklist to our all Airbus fleet to bring KA inline with CX. So, Yes, KA crew do perceive themselves to be now an integral part of CX.

Next. DOJ controversy.

I believe you have a point. However there are two problems changing it from what I can see.

The first is purely administration. You would have to apply two DOJs to each and every employee. One for the DOJ of their respective airlines and one for the 2006 purchase date. Probably doable ,but messy.

Secondly, and more importantly, a precedent has already been set by CX. All previous KA employees who came across to CX in 2006 didn't get 2006 as their DOJ but got their DOJ with KA.

Next. Benefits KA staff get

10 weeks leave per year.

Yes that's true. However it is not quite as it seems. It is quite a clever system that makes optimum use of g days and allows better planning of crew leave. The 40 days leave given is divided up into 10 blocks of 4. Leave is given in week blocks only ( Saturday to Friday or Wednesday to Tuesday). A week block will consist of g,g,l,l,l,l,g. Rostering will manipulate the roster to ensure in a month with leave in it you get the correct amount of g days. ( 8 or 9 normally).

A month with 2 weeks leave looks something like this.
6 work,2G, 4L, 2G, 4L, 2G,5 work,2G, 5 work. You still only get 8 gs in the month but it has been effectively combined with L days.

Travel Fund.

Of the 527 KA pilots approximately 200 still get a travel fund. ( local and standard contract guys don't get it. The new standard contract has ring fenced the current recipients). 3 of the 200 are A scalers who get a better deal. The remaining expat B guys get differing amounts depending on their domicile. With a wife and 2 kids Europe 120K. Aust/NZ. 90k. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I believe CX had a scheme up until B scale introduction in 93 when it was incorporated in the basic wage. Partially the reason CX drivers have a higher basic than KA.

Concessions by KA staff to join CX corporate scheme.

Travel fund. This will be reduced by 15 to 20 % depending on your pay scale and domicile.

Common Law Spouse. As CX doesn't recognise a CLS then the KA crew will either have to get married or nominate their CLS as a companion.

Tickets for school boarders. Currently KA provides 2 tickets a year for boarders to return to HK. CX system requires that an ID 75 be purchased.

Faster Commands at KA.

True. However I believe there should no longer be 2 year commands at KA. This is a wasted opportunity for both CX and the AOA. 5 year FOs at CX could step straight into a command on a 320 at KA, or if they deemed that below them, stay as an FO for another 10 years to get a 330 command at CX.

I understand where CX pilots are coming from however I believe some of the reactions are disproportionate to the reality.

[MENELAUS]

For the love of God Giggsy. Don't let reason cloud the issue.

[boocs]

Thank you giggerty!!

b.

[PanZa-Lead]

1. The numbers of KA staff involved make up just over 10% of the total workforce. Therefore, statistically if there are 10 people listed on a flight 1 will be KA.

AND one wife and six kids = 8 KA wait listed

[giggerty]

Well, yes ok. If you want to put it that way. For every 72 CX staff listed there will be 8KA staff.

[tyson744]

I don't care how many are waitlisted. They do not work for Cx and should not get cx boarding priority. Can any one name one other airline in this industry that gives employees of another airline equal rights on their sectors

[betpump5]

Like I said, there will always be some clown, Mr quagmire in this case, who tries to justify the decision. And conveniently he works for said wannabe Turkish Airline.

Big picture, its another degradation in conditions for the CX employee. Simple as. Something about polish a turd...

[flyboy007]

"Can any one name one other airline in this industry that gives employees of another airline equal rights on their sectors"

Jetstar. First to check in has highest priority, regardless of whether they work for JQ or not.

[ACMS]

Ok but that's the way it was from day 1 JQ was created and anyone joining knew the deal.

[Weary traveller]

I'd be happy with DOJ from 2006 when CX took us over. Y list. I'd like to see the 2 unions get together and nut something out together too that satisfies as many as possible. Better than us setting on one another and creating bitterness.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Giggerty, nice try mate. Thanks, but no thanks. I know you are desperate to get off your rosters from hell and into the left hand seat of a 777, and I understand that, and neither it is "below" me to get a command on a 320.

I just don't want to.

The travel staff change is a disgrace and deeply unfair, you can spin it as you like.

I don't blame dragon pilots for these staff travel changes, but please don't try me to sell an " opportunity", that is really an insult.

[Forward CofG]

I personally have no problem with KA guys getting pri 25. As many have said, a precendent was set with KA ground staff moving over to CX contracts and keeping their D.O.J.
Those that are citing precedent should also realise that should the seniority lists be combined, there is a couple of precedents of Cathay freighters, the former Air Hong Kong ( not DHL ), and Dragonair freighters being put on the bottom of the CX seniority list. The talk of a Y integration is not an option.:}

[Gnadenburg]

I know you are desperate to get off your rosters from hell and into the left hand seat of a 777

I'd rather be busted back to flying a 320 as an F/O than flying your 777's. I've never met a content CX pilot. KA flying is more endurable IMO.

[JY9024]

I'd rather be busted back to flying a 320 as an F/O than flying your 777's. I've never met a content CX pilot. KA flying is more endurable IMO.

I've never heard of anyone at KA wanting recognition in regards to seniority to fly CX aircraft and nor should they. I do envision CX pilots progressing through KA for there initial upgrade after a stint as an SO at CX, Personally I think this is why CX has kicked off the Group Staff Travel.

[Weary traveller]

I have good mates on the 777 and I see how broken some of them are. No thank you. China can be head bangingly frustrating but it's mostly a 9-5 job and I sleep pretty well. No aspirations for long haul at all.

[giggerty]

Damn Sam. You saw straight through my cunning plan. Everyone knows the best gig in the world is flying super long haul back of the clock CX 777. Look how happy and alert all the pilots are. That's why I joined a short haul Airbus operation all those years ago. Just so one day, through guile and deception, I could sneak my way onto a CX 777. Now you've blown my cover!!! Guess I'll just have to be content with getting my 20 sectors a month and being home with my family and in my own bed at night. Dang!!

OK Sam. I'll make a prediction. Can you get back to me in 12 months time and see if I'm right or not? Crystal ball time.

CX is hurting from crew shortage and training limitations and will seek a way around the problem.
CX will approach KA to do training for them. KA won't be keen on this. It will also be opposed by the AOA and DPA plus it will be seen as not very cost effective as there will be double training involved learning and unlearning KA procedures.
CX will see the best and cheapest option is once Cathay Dragon is launched they will transfer some aircraft, some short haul destinations and a couple of medium haul destinations to KA. This will alleviate the crew shortage plus decrease the demand for SO, FO upgrades.
KA will continue its policy of employing DEFOs with a plan to upgrade to command within 3 years.
The upshot will be there are pilots out there who are not yet employed by KA who will have a command with KA long before current FOs with CX get a shot at command.

Now I personally think that situation is wrong and that experienced CX FOs should be given the opportunity of command at KA if they choose. I know flying an A320 won't appeal to everyone. You can come to an agreement to protect your precious 777 slots. I'm sure there's a way. Y pattern integration would do it (for 15 years at least, and long after most of us old farts have left). This would also protect the current KA FOs as they would get first shot at a command when they were ready.

You can be a conspiracy theorist if you like but I think you are sticking your head in the sand.

Crystal ball has clouded over.

Oh and Betpump. I wasn't trying to be clownish or funny. I was simply trying to show the reality of the situation and cut through some of the hysteria. Some people out there will take what I wrote on board, some won't.

[anotherbusdriver]

Good on ya Giggerty!
Honestly, if we could become more united as a pilot group, make it work for us long term, can't see the problem. A bigger airline, with more options and opportunities to fine tune ones family circumstances can only be better for everybody. And safer as well.

[A3301FD]

The KA pilots on this thread have suddenly become CX managers, trying to sell this crap to CX pilots as a win win.

CX wins, KA pilots win. There is nothing positive about this for CX staff at all, and the reason it was done was to prevent CC by KA pilots over CNY.

It is nothing more than the continued degradation of T&Cs of CX staff, and it will continue.

[swh]

giggerty,

I truly hope that is not the genuine attitude of KA pilots and the DPA. The way you are going there will be an IFALPA recruitment ban at KA for systematically undermining your peers.

The reason why CX pilots are in contract compliance is over rostering, if it is bleeding obvious to you that pilots are f%%%ed, why is not bleeding obvious to the management?

The AOA representative were in "good faith" negotiations with the company over rostering. The "negotiator" from Cathay Canada spends the "good faith" session yelling and screaming at the HKAOA representatives, to managements surprise no progress is made. The comical management updates that come out blame the AOA representatives for not giving into the yelling, intimidation, and bullying. CX need to have someone in the room like they did for the Australian EBA negotiations that will actually engage in dialogue with the pilot representatives. One of the biggest excuses was the IT platform will not enable any flexibility. The same excuse has been used for over a decade.

There has never been any genuine action taken by the company to improve the rostering system to meet the size of the current operation. That same system is also the one being used for KA crews as well. If you ever go to crew control and see them use there system, it is slower than iPad1. There needs to be a drop of money on a rostering system that can actually cope with the size of the airline. This has an issue fora long time, and you should see the long list of excuses why it is not implemented.

The AOA was able to run an off the shelf live rostering system within a few weeks. Problem with that system is it would replace 40 odd staff in crew control and rostering, around 20 would remain. So those 60 self-serving people in the rostering kingdom have more control over the business process being implemented that the 10,000+ pilots and cabin crew who are affected by it.

Congratulations to those 60 staff have cost the company literally billions and have cause countless crews to be ill to protect their own jobs. We have non flying middle managers who don’t know what the AFTLs and CAD371 are that listen to the excuses. KPMG came in and told CX managers that the CX operation was "simple" compared to a lot of other airlines, and it would take next to no time to get a new system in place.

Why is the new system being actively implemented? Because it is convenient excuse to destroy our COS. CX did not get what it wanted, so it just terminated the rostering practices and now amends them how it sees fit.

Your frame of reference of "being home with my family and in my own bed at night" is going to get f%%%ed over by these same clowns. It is in the "group" playbook, you too will be absolutely f%%%ed for multiple WOLC flights, and when you start complaining the CX guys will be able to point back to this time and say because you did not stand up to this, you enabled your own demise by helping the “group” clowns systematically destroy the CX conditions.

How long do you think they will question why KA aircraft spend the night on the ground, when there are slots available at HKIA between midnight and 6 am? How long do you think they will say that KA pilots are 3-7 seven weeks less productive than other group employees and strip away your additional holidays ? How long do you think they will say that the KA housing benefits are 30-50% higher than the "group" and strip them away? How long do you think before they realize you are far less productive on a ASK/FTK level, and make you do more hours?

You are thinking they cannot do that, its in my COS ? Good laugh. They can drop a new contract over to you tomorrow, sign it, or leave in 12 weeks. That is the sort of integrity the "group" people you are dealing with, they have done it before.

So congratulations, as you said a Captain that has been at KA for 3 years can offload a 25 yr CX captain on CX metal. Hope the increases in the number of divorces, sickness, cancer, sleep disorders that you will get as a result of the rostering practices they will impose on you, and which you enabled was worth it.

The way to fix the structural issues at CX is not to use KA as a vehicle to bypass staff concerns, it is to urgently replace the rostering system to enable flexibility (and to have pilots and cabin crew in as part of the process). It is to remove the negotiator, and have someone there that will engage their staff.

That however will take leadership, and not management. A commodity that is not actively encouraged, you don't get a bonus for leading.

:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[TSIO540]

So congratulations, as you said a Captain that has been at KA for 3 years can offload a 25 yr CX captain on CX metal.

How can a KA Captain with PRI 25 and 3 years seniority bump a CX person with PRI 25 and 30 years seniority? Within a ticket class DOJ wins, or have I got that wrong?

If you're referring to someone on KA using a PRI 11 but the CX person using PRI 25 then you aren't comparing apples are you!? A CX person with 12 months seniority could do the same...

TSIO

[777300ER]

How can a KA Captain with PRI 25 and 3 years seniority bump a CX person with PRI 25 and 30 years seniority? Within a ticket class DOJ wins, or have I got that wrong?

If you're referring to someone on KA using a PRI 11 but the CX person using PRI 25 then you aren't comparing apples are you!? A CX person with 12 months seniority could do the same...

TSIO

Don't be ridiculous TSIO. This is PPrune and there is absolutely no room for this type of rational authenticity here. Take it somewhere else please.

[Lowkoon]

A recruitment ban? Why not, it was so effective when you imposed one on yourselves. those guys are 777 captains now aren't they? I wonder if they are refusing themselves sectors... :hmm: Effective plan?

KA tried it too, same success, all experienced long serving captains now.

pretty gutless imposing a restriction on the unemployed. Thats my personal opinion, DPA is very loyal to IFALPA.

[Big Picture]

I recall the "integration" talks of 08.


The DPA position was integrated seniority on basis of DOJ, however Dragon Air aircraft were to be "ring fenced" so only Dragon Air FO's could upgrade on Dragon Air aircraft. of Course CX aircraft were open to anyone, no "ring fencing" there.


The CX boys should be watching their backs right now. DPA would grab any chance at integrated seniority with both hands with scant regard for the CX crew.

[swh]

If you're referring to someone on KA using a PRI 11 but the CX person using PRI 25 then you aren't comparing apples are you!?

It is not just the fact that it is PRI11, it is PRI11/B. A CX employee will not get PRI11/B until 10-14 years of service when they get to CN. You cannot get confirmed PRI11 W/Y most of the time as the flights are overbooked, you can get confirmed PRI11/B.

So again the people with high DOJ will not be able to get on flights because of quick commands at KA.

As an apple that has been offloaded by PRI11 already, I am speaking from experience. The experience is going to get worse as now there are an additional 10,000+ PRI11 sectors as it applies to the whole family, not just the crew-member.

[TSIO540]

I recall the "integration" talks of 08.

The DPA position was integrated seniority on basis of DOJ, however Dragon Air aircraft were to be "ring fenced" so only Dragon Air FO's could upgrade on Dragon Air aircraft. of Course CX aircraft were open to anyone, no "ring fencing" there.

The CX boys should be watching their backs right now. DPA would grab any chance at integrated seniority with both hands with scant regard for the CX crew.

I have read the archived negotiation documents and I call B/S on your recollection.:=

You might find a few people interested in flying a 777 here, but the majority are happy where they are at KA. No one here is trying to take your command slot, you've likely worked hard for it, however it was time to stop a cleaner with 6 months seniority bumping a 30 year captain, or even a post 08 captain.. IMHO.

[giggerty]

SWH.
I think you missed the gist of my post. The scenario I painted was one where CX pilots will be screwed over. I was putting forward a plan to avoid that scenario and have a United pilot group. Unfortunately the conspiracy theorists jump on this each time as a KA pilots attempt to steal CX commands.

You say we are "undermining our peers". I'm not sure if you have been reading this thread but there are 9 pages of CX pilot comments saying we aren't your peers. That we are are a lowly separate entity not worthy of being your peers. Thats hardly the sort of language to inspire people to fight for a common cause.

Out.

[fire wall]

Giggerty,
Can we please stop with the manufactured bending of the truth to suit your argument. No one is saying you are the bastard child (at least no one with a brain anyway), but that there should be some common sense in the system whereby seniority within your company structure is the overriding factor, not a system based on which seat you sit in as the time to move from the Right to the Left hand side of the cockpit in KA is dramatically less. This muted change holds no water by international standard.

The sooner we all realise that working together is in our best interests the sooner we can protect ourselves from the 7th floor wallahs and the lunatic fringe that fortunately forms only a small part of both CX and KA's populous.

[tsimbeit]

Fire wall:
"Can we please stop with the manufactured bending of the truth to suit your argument.

This muted change holds no water by international standard."

Fire wall: What is the international standard and do you know the Hong Kong standard?

[guria]

giggerty,

We are not merged airlines. We are separate airlines in a Group. No-one is, nor should be calling KA inferior or lesser, or anything else. The amount one airline adds to the Group profit is also irrelevant. I know I fly my aircraft as efficiently as I can whether it is full or empty. Others are charged with getting it full of paying passengers/freight or not, and they do a good job doing so these days, however that is done.

Staff travel should be an airline benefit - your own airline before those from another - and that is an industry 'standard practice'.

Whatever management has promised you in the past is not my concern. They've promised me a lot as well and not delivered. Taking it from someone else doesn't make it right.

[tsimbeit]

Guria:
"Staff travel should be an airline benefit."

Yes, SHOULD not SHALL.

"Whatever management has promised you in the past is not my concern. They've promised me a lot as well and not delivered. Taking it from someone else doesn't make it right."

Yes, they can GIVE or TAKE, what's new?

You think it has been any different in the past - and that is an 'industry standard practise'.

[GMEDX]

Pacific and Dragon are quite clearly parts of the same Cathay/Swire airline. The minimal separation is a myth perpetuated by their perceived need to try and hang on to two AOCs. I don't think that they will manage to do this for much longer so it would be a good idea for the two pilots' associations to have meaningful discussions as to how the ASLs should be merged. Staff travel is only the start.

[swh]

You say we are "undermining our peers". I'm not sure if you have been reading this thread but there are 9 pages of CX pilot comments saying we aren't your peers. That we are are a lowly separate entity not worthy of being your peers. Thats hardly the sort of language to inspire people to fight for a common cause.

Seems English maybe your second language. A peer is a a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status. If you were to write a peer reviewed paper, people of a similar academic background around the world would review your work. The peers of DPA member pilots are all IFAPLA member pilots, which includes the different CX pilots TUs.

Being a peer does not make you a co-worker. All pilots on the CX ASL are co-workers, all pilots on the KA ASL are co-workers. KA pilots are no co-workers of CX pilots, different airlines. As I said before it is fundamentally wrong that KA pilots that commute on their own metal should get priority on their own airline over other airlines. Ex-KA staff that are now employed by CX should not be getting priority over those staff that stayed at KA. To me it is fundamentally wrong to have a bet each way.

As it is been pointed out previously, when CX crew DT on a KA flight, being operated by KA or CX metal, we get sent down the back to economy because KA is a different airline.

Pacific and Dragon are quite clearly parts of the same Cathay/Swire airline. The minimal separation is a myth perpetuated by their perceived need to try and hang on to two AOCs.

That is the sort of throw away line that KA pilots will use to justify their stance of taking away what is not theirs. While you are at it, don't forget that Air China also owns 30%. Why not go for staff travel arrangements on Air China that will see their staff offloaded on their own metal ?

Fact of the matter remains that air traffic rights and slots are tied to AOCs, CX cannot just close down the KA AOC and consolidate the operation without the loss of those rights. Every flight out of Hong Kong is an international flight and is bound by bi-lateral arrangements between countries.

Its different on the freighter side as bi-lateral agreements are less restrictive. For example no Hong Kong flagged carrier can get additional landing slots into the major Australian ports (SYD/MEL/BNE/PER) as the maximum frequency has been reached for direct passenger flights. Additional freighter flights are permitted to SYD/MEL/BNE/PER, as well as passenger flights to secondary airports (ADL/CBR/CNS/DRW/OOL etc).

[tsimbeit]

Cathay Pacific and Dragon are quite clearly parts of the same Cathay/Swire airline. The minimal separation is a myth perpetuated by their perceived need to try and hang on to two AOCs.

swh:

"That is the sort of throw away line that KA pilots will use to justify their stance of taking away what is not theirs".

“As it is been pointed out previously, when CX crew DT on a KA flight, being operated by KA or CX metal, we get sent down the back to economy because KA is a different airline”.

“For example no Hong Kong flagged carrier can get additional landing slots into the major Australian ports (SYD/MEL/BNE/PER) as the maximum frequency has been reached for direct passenger flights

SWH you are truly stuck in the past, that’s all history, the world is rapidly changing and our owners/directors are busy planning for the future.

Do you know their plans?

[TriJetFlying]

To drive the wedge in just a little further, let's get AHK PRI25 also.

[GMEDX]

swh you to$$er. Look up what class of duty travel CX get on KA. It changed on 1st Feb!
Agree trijet!

[Anotherday]

Can we get an amendment to staff travel so it shows how many of those ahead of us are KA staff so we can get an idea how often we're getting f*cked over and booted off our airline.

[swh]

Look it up!
swh you to$$er. Look up what class of duty travel CX get on KA. It changed on 1st Feb!

Look what up ?

There has been no NTC, no change to the COS, and no change to OPS-A 14.12 ? IntraSux says last update to the duty travel policy was 2014.

The associated FAQ with the staff travel change said ....

"17. Will the interline agreements between CX and KA be combined?
No. As CX and KA are still separate airlines, we will continue to treat them as such in that other airlines will maintain an individual interline agreement with CX and KA."

[Apple Tree Yard]

A wonderful way for our management to show us how much they respect and value us: give employees (and their uncounted family members) of ANOTHER airline the ability to bump us off of our own. Brilliant. Another spectacular 'own goal' in staff management. Can't understand why everyone is so angry around this place?? :mad:

[goathead]

Spectacular own goal is an understatement
We will do nothing as a pilot body as usual
Call CC to register your reply if you do care

[XFR8]

Yet another Fragrant thread descends into farce as pilot fights pilot on a public forum. Management love you guys. Keep it up

[Big Picture]

TSIO540.


The old, "I have not recollection of that" defence.


Not only was that an initial negotiating position of the DPA I can even recall the individual in the DPA that put that "concept" forward.


I stand by my statement.


The DPA is out for its own membership and doesn't give a toss about the AOA members. Hey maybe that is the right position for a pilot union? I'm not necessarily knocking it, I'm just highlighting to AOA members that the DPA doesn't have their best wishes at heart.

[KABOY]

The DPA is out for its own membership and doesn't give a toss about the AOA members.

Talk to your GC before you make sweeping remarks...

Ill informed statements like this lead to greater resentment from both sides!

[landrecovery]

Tell you what boys, I'll take our old profit share formula and you can have the staff travel.
Believe me not everyone at KA is happy about the proposal, (not deal) hopefully it can be improved on.
Now where the 350 manual on cx intranets?

[AQIS Boigu]

I am still awaiting a KA pilot to tell us the deal's positives for CX staff.

Maybe there are none?

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Does anyone know where I can get some popcorn? This is quite something! :D

[Cannucky]

Maybe the majority of CX employees are happy to get ahead of KA on the flights to Penang, Phuket, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Fukuoka, Taipei, Kaohsiung, Okinawa, etc. Maybe you are a bit egoistic here, the majority of CX (maybe not you) will benefit.

[2 cents]

The majority of CX employees don't want to "get ahead" of anyone at a different airline. Why? Because it's not right. We didn't ask for it and we don't want it.

[tsimbeit]

2 cents

The MAJORITY of CX employees - what is your reference?

DIFFERENT AIRLINE?- Use of JS policy, CX and KA considered SAME AIRLINE.

The seat in another part of the same aircraft of the same airline is considered a different airline?

[landrecovery]

Maybe the majority of CX employees are happy to get ahead of KA on the flights to Penang, Phuket, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Fukuoka, Taipei, Kaohsiung, Okinawa, etc. Maybe you are a bit egoistic here, the majority of CX (maybe not you) will benefit.

Well said, some posters should look behind the cockpit door and in the lunchroom at hello kitty city.
This is an Asian airline (Yes singular).
This will benefit the locals and Asian commuters a huge amount more on Dragonair as we get more Asian destinations.

I'll guarantee the whiners are commuters, love to see the the commuter contract they signed.
20-30 westerners in KA may benefit I'd be more worried about 500-1000 of our more senior cabin crew.

With the dollar and pound down I'm suggesting Europe and Australia are great destinations for a holiday.
Oh and they take the whole family as well.
This would not have been such an issue if AOA and DPA had of talked years ago.

[swh]

Over 1 in every 15 people employed by CX in HOng Kong is an Australian pilot (over 1000), most with one or more families (Airbus fleet has the extremely high divorce rate). More CX staff travellers than there are people employed by CX have been disadvantaged.

It's is very transparent exactly the people in KA that pushed for this. The FAU is livid over this as well, so the argument that it was for CX cabin crew holds no water.

KA expats were compensated in their contracts with full fare tickets to get them home. With this change, a KA pilot wife and three children would have multiple priority 11 sectors to offload pri25 staff regardless of their DOJ.

[tsimbeit]

swh

Oh not again, even a mouse in a laboratory knows when to stop ........

A group of people are not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.

When both reason, reality fail to impact on pilots, perhaps all that remains is ridicule.

[Oasis]

swh has a point.

[airplaneridesrfun]

CX is about to give green pages back to all CX pilots. I am optimistic that this will occur on January 1st 2017.

Caveat? That you haven't been unfit more than 24 days in the previous year.

I heard this from the figment of my imagination, so it must be true.

This new policy is for the office staff to visit their girlfriends in Asia.... And for KA crew to not get depressed about lack of new planes or growth, and to keep on going the extra mile! What more is there to say? The whole thing is silly.

On a side note, everyone at the Cathay group should know airport identifiers for staff travel on journey lite.... Why do we have to go to a separate screen to put this info in. What a waste of time and bandwidth. If you don't know the 3 letter code of the airport you are staff traveling to, then maybe you should not be going there!

[Gnadenburg]

swh has a point.

Yes, swh would have an excellent point if it were black and white. But it's very grey.

I'd suggest swh in his legacy swagger is an unwitting contributor to the race to the bottom. A black and white fanaticism will only miss a bigger picture as some of the ill-informed comments are forever divisive. The DPA has approached the AOA on staff travel issues and I'd suggest a proactive DPA committee would be in contact over other issues now.

Surely, likely near term scenarios are obvious to all? KA involved in training or a rapid expansion of KA over CX regional routes.

The first option will only be a success with outbursts from the likes of swh; otherwise, I can't see the training option working with KA's industrial culture and it will only reduce the mechanics of KA's own efficiency anyways ( if it can sort out command training failure rates ).

So an endgame would be a continuous expansion of KA which will eventually drive itself to more levels of training efficiency by necessity. If there was a more sensible attitude and less legacy swagger toward integration years ago this wouldn't matter two hoots to CX pilots now. So it would be a nice surprise if the two pilot groups driven together instead of being wedged apart and stealing a bitter defeat.