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n5296s
2nd Feb 2016, 15:51
(cue Godwin's Law as applied to stall speed / angle of attack)

Very interesting flight in the Marchetti 260 at the weekend. A few months ago I was doing pattern work in it and my instructor was very clear about the importance of speed on climb-out - always true of course but he explained that if you do inadvertently stall this aircraft at low altitude, you will likely die.

Well, my plane is in yet another extended annual (its excuse this year is an engine overhaul), so we decided to go and explore this a bit more. Very interesting. It has a very thin wing, for a small piston aircraft, with relatively sharp leading edges. In consequence (as explained to me) the C/L curve has a very flat top compared to say a Cessna. Which means that the stall is far from being an "all at once" thing (not that it ever is).

In 1G flight, you can start to feel aerodynamic discomfort at around 95 knots. Keep pulling, and at about 82 you get real buffetting. At 80, the nose drops. Gently push the stick forward and fly out of it like any other aircraft.

So far, so normal, apart from the wide gap between first indications and actual stall.

BUT... now keep pulling past the nose drop, until the stick is full back. With a bit of footwork you can keep the wings more or less level. But now try to recover. Stick forward, accelerate to 85 knots, pull ever so slightly, and you get a secondary stall. In fact it won't begin to fly normally again until you get past 95.

What is happening, so it seems, is that once the airflow gets fully detached, the turbulence stops it reattaching until the AoA is significantly below the "critical AoA".

Hence the danger - if you get into a full-blown stall below 1000 feet, without knowing what is happening, you'll likely secondary stall your way into the ground. Of course even if you were half asleep, hopefully the stall warning horn (which goes off at around 87) would wake you up enough to stop this happening.

Just mentioning stall speed on this forum is sure to have people jumping down your throat. What I find interesting is that in this case, AoA is actually not a whole lot better. (We did explore a bit accelerated stalls at 2G/60 degrees, but not in as much detail).

I'm told that the T-38, with an extremely thin, highly loaded, wing (my instructor has over 2000 hours instructing in them) is a lot more exciting than this. Sadly, we don't have one to hand.

(I probably don't need to add, but will, "don't do this without an experienced instructor", etc - not many low-time PPLs will have access to a Marchetti to go try it, though Rich would certainly welcome anyone at Attitude Aviation if they did want to).

glum
3rd Feb 2016, 12:09
interesting details, thanks.

makes me wonder why wings like this made it into production - is it because the designers didn't know better, or is it that way because it needs to be for other reasons of aircraft performance?

Capn Bug Smasher
3rd Feb 2016, 13:28
Probably performance. Nice and thin equals nice and fast!

n5296s
3rd Feb 2016, 15:37
Two reasons I think...

-- less drag, hence faster
-- the goal of this aircraft was initial training for jet fighter pilots, so handling more like a jet is a plus, not a minus

Bob Upanddown
4th Feb 2016, 12:24
I flew a 260 many years ago. It is a fine aircraft.

I recall there is a wide margin between the takeoff speed and the flapless stall speed hence (as you take off with take-off flap set) if you retract the flaps too soon after takeoff, you will stall and die for the reasons stated in the OP.

Surely it was a different designer who came up with their 4 seat alternative to the PA-28?

Vilters
7th Feb 2016, 15:17
I have many post maintenance check flights under my belt on the SF-260 M and D.

The SF260 is a 260 hp metallic version of its little brother; The wooden Falco that had 150 to 160 hp. (Flew that one too)

The tip tanks got added for the extra fuel burn of the 260.

The thin wing is purely for performance.
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That said, a wel rigged SF-260 has a nice stall if you let it decelerate slowly.
It is very BRUTAL if yo do an accelerated stall in a turn. It will flip over on its back, and WILL require that you get back a democratic amount of airspeed before trying to recover.
A secondary stall , when trying to recover too soon, will also be eye-opening BRUTAL.
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With its small wing, it has a very high wing loading. Perfect for a military trainer, less perfect when you let it get too slow without being prepared.
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With a new engine, we always did a 2hr full power flight below 3.000 ft to run-in te engine and seat the rings.

After that we did the FCF (Functional Check Flight) before turning the aircraft back over to the students and instructors.

A VERY nice airplane, but you have to keep the high wing loading in mind at all times.

Oh.... And never do funny things with fuel in the tip-tanks........

Marchettiman
7th Feb 2016, 21:08
Interesting comments on Marchetti handling qualities, but they paint a picture which is surely the same for any reasonably high performance aircraft, particularly one optimised as a trainer for budding fast jet pilots. I speak with some 3000 hours of very happy and safe flying on the type, most of which has been hand flying my own aircraft, an autopilot-less early “A” model with the less forgiving wing, over the last 33 years, and also with hundreds of hours on later models including the 260TP.

The Marchetti is a very docile aircraft if flown with respect for its limitations, just as most aircraft are. The 1g stall arrives with more than sufficient aerodynamic warning; so too does an accelerated stall. Even if you are oblivious to the very adequate warning horn and light as well, the aeroplane recovers immediately and rewards gentle handling with minimum height loss. However if you choose to ignore the flight manual and pull hard on the recovery at low level the secondary stall will bite you, but who would ever handle an aeroplane like that? The figures quoted by n5296s in his (or her) critique do seem high and I wonder whether the aircraft flown was either badly rigged or had the pitot-static valve selected in the emergency position which does give exaggerated ASI readings because of the low pressure regime in the cockpit caused by poor canopy sealing. I hesitate to suggest it was the result of the kind of ham-fisted handling technique that might be ignored by Cessna's relatively benign and customer friendly aerodynamics purposefully provided and at the expense of the kind of performance and handling qualities one expects of bespoke Italian machinery.

If an aeroplane looks right, it should fly right; on both accounts in my view, particularly for non military owners, the Marchetti has virtually no competition.

Pilot DAR
7th Feb 2016, 21:17
I have no experience flying the 260, though a friend of mine who flew them for the company had many very nice things to say about them.

My limited experience watching one fly was terminated abruptly, with an announced spin entry along the runway, a few hundred feet up, at Oshkosh in 1983. The pilot did actually stop the rotation of the spin, but failed to arrest the descent rate. He impacted right in front of us, and that was that for the day's flying demonstration. I believe it was a fatal stop. I was disappointed that a pilot would be so foolish....

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Aircraft/IMG_2395.jpg

n5296s
7th Feb 2016, 21:52
I hesitate to suggest it was the result of the kind of ham-fisted handling technique that might be ignored by Cessna's relatively benign and customer friendly aerodynamics
That is pretty seriously uncalled for and frankly a dumb remark - there's really no point in trying to score points about what a superior pilot you are to those who habitually fly other kinds of aircraft (in my case, including Pitts S2C and Robinson 44, as well as my own Cessna).

As I pointed out in the OP, we were intentionally exploring the deep stall regime, to observe that airflow doesn't reattach at the same AoA it detached at. With any reasonably sensitive handling, of course this won't happen. It's just an interesting observation about aerodynamics.

As for the airspeeds, we certainly weren't on alternate static. This is an extremely well maintained aircraft, and the person I was flying with has a lot more advanced experience than you do, I'd be willing to bet, including U2s and a long stint as a USAF Instructor Pilot. (Preparing now of course for inbound about well what do you expect from those uncouth Americans). Incidentally the 260 is his favourite aircraft, and the one he says he will keep if/when he retires from the flight school business. I rather like it too, though I'm very happy with my TR182.

I remember now why I'm reluctant to post anything serious on this forum...

Pilot DAR
7th Feb 2016, 22:06
Quote:
I hesitate to suggest it was the result of the kind of ham-fisted handling technique that might be ignored by Cessna's relatively benign and customer friendly aerodynamics
That is pretty seriously uncalled for and frankly a dumb remark

n5296s has made a fair observation. Was this remark necessary, or beneficial in any way? Perhaps Marchettiman would consider editing his post to be more genial....

Vilters
7th Feb 2016, 23:49
We teached spins from 9.000 ft.

The one thing the SF-260 has is very little down elevator. there's ample of UP elevator available, but very little DOWN elevator.

If one should get in trouble, you can not "push over" as one can in other airplanes. And if the engine should stop in such a case, you can not "blow" the elevator either.

But with those little vanes on the tiptanks, one "can" help with the ailerons.
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Not a hair on my neck would think about spinning below 4.500 ft.
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And with those "vanes" on the tanks? You can even fly around using ailerons while in the stall. Just keep the ball centered to avoid falling out.

LOL, Then transfer weight to power, and fly "with ease" below published stall speed. LOL. Again, keep the ball centered. :-)
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As a military trainer? There is no better AC for the job.