Biggin Hill PPR

[cessnapete]

I recently diverted into Biggin due weather. Departed after approx one hour.
During that time I observed 6 Biz Jet/GA movements including mine.
Friendly and efficient handling, but makes a bit of a mockery of their on-line slot requirement for PPR.

[rightbank]

You don't need PPR for a genuine diversion. How would you know what the weather is going to be like several days before?

Many years ago Pax wanted to go to Pisa. No slots available so had to take them to Florence instead. Florence is only useable in one direction and the wind was not co-operating so diverted to Pisa with no problem. Pax were pleased except that their transport was waiting at Florence.

[john ball]

I used the PPR for a short 15 minute flight to North Weald and back in my RV6 a couple of weekends ago . It all worked fine and the reply from Biggin was quick --- but it was a fairly quiet day, so I do not see how it will help me with the usual queue to take off. They gave me my requested early turn left down 11 on the climb out from 21, which helps with the noise near Biggin Hill village. Not sure what you would do without a smart phone or ipad ? It does take the spontaneity out of flying, as it is not always possible to say exactly when you are going to fly back. But, if you want to stay a Biggin, it is another rule to abide by. I have to be based there, as the other options are all boggy grass and the tiny wheels on the RV6 are not suitable. Living in south London there are not many realistic options. Having been based there since 1973, things have changed a lot -- in the 70's if you saw an executive jet at Biggin, it was 'Wow', there is an HS125 in-between the other ten, Rallyes, Cessna's, Piper's, Fournier's all going around together on the two parallel runways of grass and concrete !!! also of course there was the best runway of 25/07 ----- sorry going off on complete tangents on a Monday!!!

[Fournierf5]

. . .actually I think it was 23/05 . . . scene of my last memorable landing in a (guess!!). Prop strobing against the setting sun, couldn't see a thing, just sideways glances as I popped the spoilers ... came down like a leaf on to a silk cushion . . . aeons ago now!

[john ball]

Yes, you absolutely right, it was 23/05 -- bad memory ! I did my first solo from that runway in a 'cornflake' Rallye. Also had a jammed elevator control in a later flight from that runway due to stones from breaking up surface. Do you remember my Fournier RF4 -G-AWBJ that we kept at Sportair/Biggin, before moving to Tiger Club at Redhill --- the best days of my flying !!

[reimomo]

During that time I observed 6 Biz Jet/GA movements including mine.

You don't need PPR for a genuine diversion. How would you know what the weather is going to be like several days before?

No.

The OP is pointing out that with a grand total of 6 movements in an hour, there perhaps isn't much need for PPR...

[alex90]

I was told that one of the main reasons for the implementation of this new system was for Biggin to actually know who their customers were. It seems that they wanted to keep a record as to whom, what, where and when. In addition to the growing number of private jet traffic coming in / out of Biggin, and them needing to get controllers to have a better picture of workload / peak times.

I frequently have to wait 15+minutes with the engine running, waiting to take off (behind 3 others) at Alpha 1 for runway 21, whilst I see 3/4 jets and a couple of GA in the circuit to come round. So in that respect I do believe that it makes sense, I would gladly have traded a cup of tea in the clubhouse for those tacho hours wasting fuel.

HOWEVER, for this system to work, and for me as a user to benefit from it, "potentially" saving me a few £s per flight. The hassle that this system brings to all its users, such as requiring a minimum of 30minutes notice, inbound and outbound. Having to log into a system from remote airfields that I may not get any internet (or even sometimes signal) at, or even cost me a bob or two to get any internet (ie Europe), the fact that when I do want to go, there may well not be anyone, but when the system actually processes my request, it could be peak time... does make me wonder if it is just a sly way of telling us all to find another airfield.

Generally - I have never really understood PPR. I understand the requirement of familiarity with the airfield, and reading up / checking charts / check weather & runway in use etc... But I don't understand why specifically in England (where let's be honest plans change VERY frequently due to weather) so many airfields want PPR. I think I cancelled (in flight) at least 4/5 trips to the Isle of Wight in the last 12 months when reaching the coast (when I don't see the IoW from Hayling, I don't go, even if when I left they told me they had bright sunshine). So the PPR was effectively useless for Sandown, wasting their time and my time. Do they seriously ever have enough people coming in that they require to know in advance? (i love the people who work there so please don't take it the wrong way, its a lovely place, love the cafe, it is just an example out of 99% of airfields I have been to in the UK).

France seems to do pretty well without any PPR at most of their airfields... (some big ones too) Although I will often call ahead, many respond a little baffled by my call, and just give me the frequency to call x miles away. Why do we in England need so many complications and regulations to an otherwise easy trip from A to B?

[reimomo]

It seems that they wanted to keep a record as to whom, what, where and when.

Why wouldn't they know that from the usual methods? Based a/c info, G-INFO for the rest.

or even cost me a bob or two to get any internet (ie Europe)

Submitting a flight plan negates the need for a PPR slot.

does make me wonder if it is just a sly way of telling us all to find another airfield.

Yup.

[chevvron]

Generally - I have never really understood PPR. I understand the requirement of familiarity with the airfield, and reading up / checking charts / check weather & runway in use etc... But I don't understand why specifically in England (where let's be honest plans change VERY frequently due to weather) so many airfields want PPR. I think I cancelled (in flight) at least 4/5 trips to the Isle of Wight in the last 12 months when reaching the coast (when I don't see the IoW from Hayling, I don't go, even if when I left they told me they had bright sunshine). So the PPR was effectively useless for Sandown, wasting their time and my time. Do they seriously ever have enough people coming in that they require to know in advance? (i love the people who work there so please don't take it the wrong way, its a lovely place, love the cafe, it is just an example out of 99% of airfields I have been to in the UK).


The law says you must have the permission of the owner of the land to use a particular airfield so prior permission (which can take many forms) is required by law at those airfields which either operate on an 'Ordinary' licence or are unlicenced.
Different airfields treat this in different ways, for instance some private strips operate an 'open to all' system by saying in Pooleys and similar guides the airfield is available without PPR, what they're actually doing is giving you permission to land on paper; other airfields grant you PPR by giving joining 'instructions' when you call on the RTF, others insist on a phone call or even e-mail or on-line applications.
Simply filing a flight plan does not constitute a request for PPR; if you don't believe me, try filing a flight plan into Farnborough without PPR!

[muffin]

Where exactly does the law say that?

[Romeo Tango]

The law says you must have the permission of the owner of the land to use a particular airfield so prior permission (which can take many forms) is required by law at those airfields which either operate on an 'Ordinary' licence or are unlicenced.


So .... why can't the "owner" just publish in the AIP that anyone is welcome to turn up without ringing them first.

[dont overfil]

Where exactly does the law say that?


CAP168 Licenced Aerodromes 3.1


An Ordinary licence relates


only to use of the aerodrome by the holder of the licence and persons specifically


authorised by him.

[alex90]

Submitting a flight plan negates the need for a PPR slot. I will second Chevvron on his reply, PPR is one thing, a flight plan is a completely different thing. Try landing in Schiphol (AMS) without PPR despite having a flight plan. I think they will turn you away quite briskly, or let you land and get very very heavily taxed by the FBO.

Where exactly does the law say that? With regards to helicopters, I have definitely heard that said before. I am pretty sure it is in law, however, for airfields, I have never come across that. I know for a fact that Bembridge only has PPR on certain days (which is when I believe they also do some gliding [or at least did]). I have heard of places requiring PPR due to a limited number of movements that the airfield is allowed each year. As all other places are trying to kick us GA people out though, our even thinning population would make this rather difficult I would have thought!

So .... why can't the "owner" just publish in the AIP that anyone is welcome to turn up without ringing them first. Exactly my point. I can't understand why or how it would benefit the airfield to force everyone to call them / email them / fill in an online system / fax them / telegram them first. It seems an unnecessary cost to the airfield to have to have someone there the whole time just to answer the phones (even if they are volunteers, surely the cost of keeping the phone line, internet, heating, tea and coffee, maintenance of the tower...). In New Zealand, most of the airfields I flew into were uncontrolled (most with nobody around - just an honesty box in the corner), no need for PPR, and again everything ran pretty smoothly...

[alex90]

CAP168 Licenced Aerodromes 3.1
An Ordinary licence relates only to use of the aerodrome by the holder of the licence and persons specifically authorised by him.
This relates to licensed aerodromes, how does that affect unlicensed aerodromes? Also, "specifically authorised by him" could just be an AIP saying "Everyone is welcome, we make good tea and coffee, come visit us!" rather than "PPR Mandatory".

I think perhaps what confuses me most is the tone taken to paying customers, if I were rich enough to buy / develop an airfield, I would want the most number of people to come and visit (not just for profit, but more importantly for enhancing the GA community). I would also try to make it as easy as possible for people to come and enjoy the day out! I could never dream of implementing PPR, as I know that this alone would deplete the number of flyers considering coming in to land! (aside from the extortionate landing fees in some places, in NZ they charged me around £3 per landing, in France normally charged around £5-10 per landing, UK normally around £25 - £35 [some nice places like IoW are around £15] - anyone know why we're so much more expensive?).

[dont overfil]

Exactly my point. I can't understand why or how it would benefit the airfield to force everyone to call them / email them / fill in an online system / fax them / telegram them first.



See my post above. CAA audits.


This has been done to death before. They make the rules, you comply, they check that you comply.
Unfortunately it is buried in CAP 168 which pilots don't read but airfield operators do, and need to comply.

[Jonzarno]

Isn't it just the same law that prevents me from having a picnic in someone's garden without their permission?

[reimomo]

Simply filing a flight plan does not constitute a request for PPR; if you don't believe me, try filing a flight plan into Farnborough without PPR!

My comment was only related to Biggin, like the OP's post, not the world as a whole.

From their website:

The booking system is for every aircraft movement unless there is a filed flight plan.


No-one is suggesting a flight plan typically negates the need for PPR elsewhere. Only at Biggin.

[Meldrew]

I started flying in 1970. I lapsed in 2001 and started again last year. I remember very rarely having to call ahead for PPR in the last millenium, I just called up on the radio when approaching the airfield I wanted to land at, that was generally OK, even at an airfield like Southend. Am I missing some significant change that has happened whilst I was Away?? Is it a legal change or just attitude?

[creweite]

Reading the above makes me very grateful that I now fly in the USA! I don't remember all this hassle forty plus years ago.

[john ball]

My friend who used to a have share in our Comanche 260B at Biggin in the 90's has emigrated to Houston and now owns a Cirrus. Every time I speak to him he just winds me up about the fact they they pay $4 per gallon, no landing fees, flight following radar for free everywhere, a line boy comes out to fill up your 'airplane', he also pulls it out of the hangar for you, maintenance and insurance are all cheaper and the airport lays on free coffee and doughnuts on Saturday morning in the FBO. Is there a single airfield in Europe that offers this service ? It seems to me that what is missing is an attitude to service for paying customers in this country. Rant over, as pointless as general public over here think flying is all about rich people in Learjets, not the guy in his little Jodel that costs the same as a 2 year old VW Golf.

[Jonzarno]

I've just used the new PPR system for the first time and must say I think it's a pain :{

The problem isn't that they want PPR on incomings, and a proper book out on outgoings: I can understand that. It's the web based method that I dislike.

Mostly, I imagine it will work OK; but, as opposed to the systems at other similar airports where you call up and speak to a human being, the email acknowledgement you get tells you that you should normally receive an acceptance or rejection in half an hour but, if it takes longer than 2 hours to see one of their FAQs. That means you can't rely on flying in or out at short notice.

Frankly, I think it's an over-complicated and clunky system that should be re-thought.

[reimomo]

Frankly, I think it's an over-complicated and clunky system that should be re-thought.

I'm sorry to say that if that's the case then it's achieving it's aims.

[Jonzarno]

I don't agree: I can understand why they need PPR, and think that the system they introduced was probably done in the way that they did it because they thought it would be efficient. From a pilot's perspective, at least, IMHO it isn't.

My home airport, Cambridge, introduced PPR for VFR flights a while ago to help them cope with ATC staffing issues and, despite a fair bit of criticism both here and on other fora, the system they introduced which requires a simple phone call direct to ATC works well.

As stated above: I think the new system at Biggin is probably intended to achieve this efficiently, but just doesn't work as envisaged. I have good reason to believe that it's not popular with a large proportion of the people at Biggin and can't imagine that it's a big hit with other pilots either.

Given the nature of Biggin's traffic, I would expect that a significant part of their traffic is IFR on a flight plan which circumvents the requirement for PPR anyway; so I don't think that workload is much of a reason for implementing the requirement for PPR it in the way that they have.

As a long term frequent user of Biggin (and I can't speak highly enough of the service I always get from them! :ok:) I've written to the person responsible for the new system to suggest a rethink. If others here share my dislike of the new system, can I suggest that they do the same instead of, or in addition to :), just commenting here?

[reimomo]

I would expect that a significant part of their traffic is IFR on a flight plan which circumvents the requirement for PPR anyway; so I don't think that workload is much of a reason for implementing the requirement for PPR it in the way that they have.

I would agree 100%.

What I am try, and failing, to get across is the mistaken belief that they're introducing PPR for the usual workload reasons. They're not. They're introducing PPR as one of several methods to discourage SEPs at the airport.

[robin]

What I am try, and failing, to get across is the mistaken belief that they're introducing PPR for the usual workload reasons. They're not. They're introducing PPR as one of several methods to discourage SEPs at the airport.

PPR doesn't put me off going to an airfield. The prices do, which is why Shoreham, Blackbushe and Biggin aren't 'go-to' places for us.

[Jonzarno]

What I am try, and failing, to get across is the mistaken belief that they're introducing PPR for the usual workload reasons. They're not. They're introducing PPR as one of several methods to discourage SEPs at the airport.

I can't say I've ever gained that impression. Whenever I've gone there (my logbook says 170 landings in a SEP since 2007) they've been very welcoming and the service has never been less than excellent.

On one occasion, when the weather went really bonkers, they even moved my aircraft off the apron where it was parked into a hangar without my having to ask and didn't charge a penny for doing so. Before I departed, still in pouring rain, they told me to do my external checks in the hangar, and then towed me out sitting in the plane so I wouldn't get wet.

All that said: I still think the new PPR system sucks!

[reimomo]

For many, many years Biggin was a wonderful airport. You only have to look at previous posts above for evidence.

[Jonzarno]

Well I've just done as you suggest and can only see that suggestion made specifically about Biggin by one poster other than you and then without much in the way of supporting detail.

Whilst going through the thread, I came across this comment of yours:

No-one is suggesting a flight plan typically negates the need for PPR elsewhere. Only at Biggin.

Actually, to give just two examples of airports I use frequently, at both Cambridge and Prestwick it works exactly like that.

[reimomo]

Grief... Fine. Have it your way.

I will second Chevvron on his reply, PPR is one thing, a flight plan is a completely different thing.

Simply filing a flight plan does not constitute a request for PPR; if you don't believe me, try filing a flight plan into Farnborough without PPR!

Take it up with alex90 and chevron

[Jonzarno]

With respect: I didn't say that filing a flight plan ALWAYS negates the need for PPR; I was disagreeing with your point that it's ONLY at Biggin. I simply gave two examples where it's different and am sure there are lots of others.

As for flying into Farnborough: given the landing fees there, I think it will be a long time before I want to do that :)

[reimomo]

Ok, understood.

[TheOddOne]

What all this highlights is that in the UK we have a chaotic lack of a system for determining whether or not we can use a particular aerodrome. The only law that I can determine is that one must have the land-owner's permission to use that land. This might be a 'blanket' permission making everyone welcome without any pre-condition or radio call (I've landed at more than one strip with no-one in attendance or ANY kind of specific permission simply because the land-owner has let it be known that one can do so) right up to the other end of the scale where anything short of a full emergency, hell will freeze over before you could get in with a SEP. It seems in some parts of the world, you just call a few miles out and in you come (can't believe that REALLY works at EVERY aerodrome in the United States, but that's what some people seem to suggest).
Personally, I always call ahead by phone just to make sure the place is open, weather's OK etc. Sometimes they just say 'don't need your details, just call on the radio' but at least I've a reasonable expectation of conditions. That's notwithstanding that the aircraft in front of me blocks the runway with a burst tyre causing me to divert to my planned alternate, of course!
Ref. Biggin Hill, I've been flying in and out of the place for the past 35 years; mostly for maintenance and it's always been a busy place needing some planning and forethought. I've never seen it as a place where you can just say 'oh, I think I'll pop across to Biggin on the Bump for a cuppa'.

TOO

[alex90]

'oh, I think I'll pop across to Biggin on the Bump for a cuppa' Haha - is that because one can't really buy a good cuppa at Biggin? I mean there is a school type "tuck-shop" in the main terminal. I hear in the olden days people would fly in, and head straight for Alouette or Surrey & Kent flying clubs for a cuppa. This is no longer the case.... Even when I did my night rating at Southend (whilst based at Biggin), I wanted to do a touch and go just to see how badly lit the place was at night, and they made me go to the main terminal, pay the landing fee, and then head back out (I did ask if they wanted me to pay the landing fee over the phone / put it on account).

Although I would disagree that "it's always been a busy place needing some planning and forethought" but then again that is where I learnt so perhaps I am a little bias!

With regards to flight-plans & PPR - I have always considered both to be completely different from one another. Some places work with one or both, some don't. Biggin says that it does not require PPR if a flight plan has been filed then it doesn't! But other places will...(and do) Doesn't it sound silly though, to file a flight plan without the knowledge that you are allowed to land there?