Delta flight offloads cabin crew

[fox niner]

http://avherald.com/h?article=492cfc53&opt=0

Surely one of the most unexpected reasons to divert. Replace the three stews in the back!
Can't wait to hear what the reason was. "Sorry pax, this can't wait till we get to MSP, I am offloading these three FA's."

[Airbubba]

In the U.S. some folks don't like it when the captain acts like he or she is in charge. I've never offloaded anyone but I've sure been tempted. ;)

Delta had a famous non-tech divert years ago on the ATL-NRT route. The went into PDX because the pilots didn't think the crew rest facility was adequate:


Cramped New Berths

By Martha Brannigan Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal

Updated April 15, 1999 12:01 a.m. ET

Just how tired were Delta Air Lines Capt. Roscoe McMillan and his crew last Wednesday when he diverted his Atlanta-to-Tokyo flight to Portland, Ore., and called it a day?

Too tired, in his judgment, based on more than 30 years as a Delta pilot, to continue safely with the 14-hour journey to Narita International Airport, according to what the captain told Delta officials. The problem: Two of the other pilots couldn't sleep in the aircraft's controversial new berths, and based on earlier experience, Capt. McMillan figured he couldn't either.

"The captain felt the crew had not had satisfactory rest," says Bill Berry, a Delta spokesman.


Tired Delta Crew Diverts Flight, Blames Cramped New Berths - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB924064192774505832)

Some earlier PPRuNe discussion of cabin crew offload diversion here:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/397320-united-gru-ord-divert-mia-offload-purser.html

[Rwy in Sight]

Is there a Delta base in PDX? Because the delay was very short to find another crew from another base - if the crew were offloaded.

[Huck]

Used to. I believe it's only FA's now.

[golfyankeesierra]

Delta's reply:
We expect our flight crew to be nothing but courteous and professional at all times and what you experienced was far from that
In my company flightcrew means pilots only...

[QF5]

Well that's your company. I've worked for a few airlines and "flight crew" is generally used for all crew onboard, all have called pilots "tech crew" and flight attendants "cabin crew". No point nitpicking

[golfyankeesierra]

"flight crew" is generally used for all crew onboard
I surely hope so

[Basil]

In the UK:
RAF: Aircrew - All members of the crew. I was surprised upon going civ that the term 'aircrew' was not used.
Civil: Flight crew - pilot/eng/nav.
Cabin Crew - self explanatory.

[Basil]

A colleague offloaded a stewardess after she informed him, in the crewbus at base, that she didn't take orders from him. Her unfortunate husband was also a steward on the crew and, placed in an impossible position, backed his wife and was also offloaded.

Once you're on your way, I can't imagine inconveniencing pax by diverting.

[Airbubba]

Some insight into the contemporary cultural attitude of the cabin crew toward the captain on a U.S. airliner may be gleaned from this quote from the earlier PPRuNe thread about the United diversion:

To those of you pilots who think that teamwork approach is a waste of time and that you should be treated like "Kings," are not only over indulged with ego but out of touch and dangerous. To begin with, respect is earned...not a given, the days of thinking fellow crew members are below you are OVER...deal with it. You're a dime a dozen...you're no more special than John Doe on the street.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/397320-united-gru-ord-divert-mia-offload-purser-7.html#post5346660

Aircraft leadership dynamics are probably not quite the same in Asia and the Middle East. ;)

[blind pew]

My first airline I was b@@@@@@d for calling the cabin crew "crew" - they are "staff" and don't say please or thank you...they are here to serve us!

But on tight stops it was a different matter although most of the time the staff would be washing their hair.

:ugh:

[FlyMD]

I have never understood this discussion about hierarchy on the airplane...

A purser with 30 years seniority in Swissair once bitched at me until I had no choice but to take his point: that he was goddamned if he was ever going to listen to a single uttering I, a lousy 2-stripe copilot might bring forth, and I was lucky to get the occasional plate of food without spit in it....

My reply was to him, which I use on occasion to brief a new cabin crew, was something like:

"I would not dream of telling a great professional like yourself how to run your cabin, or deal with your pax and colleagues. Should, however, a situation come up which I deem to be abnormal or even serious, and I tell you to do something with an unmistakeable voice of command, then you either do it immediately and without hesitation, or I will bludgeon you with the nearest suitable piece of loose equipment and deal with the next cabin staff down the line, Capisce?"

Never got any argument or backtalk to that somehow...

[blind pew]

Had a couple of those too..one on a Rio who refused to serve food to my wife on the jump seat...watched them throw a whole fillet of beef - deliberately in front of me.
That was the time the gay mafia took over and we got the canary yellow trench coat...the Italians nicknamed us "The tennis balls".
But most of them - especially on the 9 and 100 - didn't suffer delusions of grandeur and were great to work with.

[26er]

Years ago in BA the flight crew management via the cabin crew management had to point out that it is the aircraft captain who is legally in overall charge, not the cabin services director with his four thin rings on his sleeve. Things improved for a while but I imagine that with locked cockpit doors most cabin crew never get to see the pilots.


Fortunately on the 1-11s we had no problems, or cabin service directors for that matter!

[RAT 5]

In the Caribbean, where captains ruled the roost on big jets, I once was the subject of this little titbit of a tale.

On boarding, with a crew change, the purser was in need of this or that and wanted the pax boarded ASAP, and wanted XYZ further doing etc. etc. She did not consult the captain, me, on any of the issues, even though permission to board was captain's domain.
After 10 mins nothing was happening on any of the fronts. She shouted at he agent some more. Still nothing. Eventually she came to me, exasperated, and explained. I went to the agent and requested all the same items she had done. Hey Presto.
It's a culture thing I guess.
What used to really irk me was how pilots let themselves be treated derogatorily. I was in a 4* hotel chain checking in for a duty night stop in civvies. The youngster behind the desk asked, "are you a guest or crew?" It was very sad to reflect that previous colleagues had allowed this misconception to gain ground.
If they did so in that scenario, what did they do on board?
I did once have a purser, (charter days with a different crew every day) who once told me that in front of the door was my world and aft of the door was his. He wouldn't tell me how to fly the a/c and I wouldn't tell him how to manage the cabin. We would all operate as per Cabin Crew Manual SOP's and then all would be tip top. I will not go into my response, but one of us had real flushed cheeks afterwards.

In this Delta scenario it is curious that 3 FA's were off-loaded. Was there a gang uprising?

[Rwy in Sight]

Any reactions from the unions so far?

[bafanguy]

Rwy in Sight,

If you mean F/A union, there isn't one. Delta F/As are non-union.

[wanabee777]

..and Delta intends to keep it that way.

Therefore, the offenders will, most likely, get nothing more than a slap on the wrist while the Captain gets unpaid leave.

[MTOW]

I did once have a purser, (charter days with a different crew every day) who once told me that in front of the door was my world and aft of the door was his. He wouldn't tell me how to fly the a/c and I wouldn't tell him how to manage the cabin. We would all operate as per Cabin Crew Manual SOP's and then all would be tip top.Quite a few years ago, a very similar situation arose on a Qantas flight on departure from Sydney for a multi day flight, with the CSD being rather more rude towards the captain than described above. A few minutes after push back time, the CSD minced (yes, minced) onto the flight deck demanding to know what was the reason for the delay. The grey haired captain politely replied, with a small smile: "We're waiting for your replacement."

[Spooky 2]

I doubt that the Capt will get any time off as I'm sure there was good reason for his actions. DL doesn't 2nd guess their Capts for the most part.

[ExSp33db1rd]

"are you a guest or crew?"

On my first trip to Bermuda, circa 1958, I turned up for breakfast at the hotel - Belmont Manor ? - and asked to be seated. "Are you a guest or BOAC" I was asked. Upon confirming the latter I was ushered into a side room where others of my crew were seated out of sight !

Clearly our table manners weren't suitable to be seen by regular guests, largely of USA persuasion ( maybe we held our knives and forks in the correct hands ? )

[Spooky 2]

Clearly our table manners weren't suitable to be seen by regular guests, largely of USA persuasion ( maybe we held our knives and forks in the correct hands ?


Who needs knives and forks when they are with friends? :)

[Huck]

In this Delta scenario it is curious that 3 FA's were off-loaded. Was there a gang uprising?

Best guess, so far.

My father's favorite story from 31 years at NWA: a friend of his was a relatively new flight engineer in the late sixties, walking up the aisle to the cockpit to get the plane ready to board. Two flight attendants stood in the forward galley.

He said, "Hi, I'm Mike, your flight engineer."

They just stared at him.

He said, "Well, f*ck you then, I got enough friends....." and kept walking.

[LlamaFarmer]

A colleague offloaded a stewardess after she informed him, in the crewbus at base, that she didn't take orders from him. Her unfortunate husband was also a steward on the crew and, placed in an impossible position, backed his wife and was also offloaded.

Once you're on your way, I can't imagine inconveniencing pax by diverting.

I thought it was common practice not to crew partners/spouses together?

[noalign]

See 121.533(e) and the relevant EPI's and SAI's.

[parabellum]

I thought it was common practice not to crew partners/spouses together?

In my experience it was exactly the opposite, also saves on a room charge!

[172driver]

If only airlines would offload the CC prior to boarding.......

PS: speaking as PAX here.

[cappt]

Rumor is a cat fight in the back.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

Cappt: "Rumor is a cat fight in the back. "

That fits what little is known. The captain diverts "telling ATC he wanted to hear from his flight attendants". That's leadership- understated, detached. He's not directly involved. He's doing his job.

Then three cabin crew were sent off due to "bad behaviour". One is an individual meltdown. Two is some kind of dispute. Three is a triangle.

Then the airline presser states "We expect our flight crew to be nothing but courteous and professional at all times and what you experienced was far from that." The slf are far more likely to "experience" problems between members of the cabin crew than between the cabin crew and flight deck.

It fits neatly with the catfight scenario.

[fox niner]

Fair enough, lets assume it was a cat fight in the rear galley. I can "sort of" understand the actions of the commander in this case, as it was:
- a domestic flight in the US
- on a US airline
- with US citizens as flight/cabin crew
My point is this:
If I had a cat fight in my rear galley, I don't drop down to land at the nearest suitable airport. I dont have the luxury of a vast swath of domestic airspace! I will be creating insurmountable problems.

[Cyber Bob]

or a piece of advice I was given years ago, "Treat with respect, those who have the capacity to wipe your steak dinner around the toilet bowl" - it's served me well!!

[Algol]

Arguing over who would be spending the night with the Captain, obviously.:E

[Basil]

I thought it was common practice not to crew partners/spouses together?
That's the story as it came to me.
If the opportunity arises, I'll recheck.

[Basil]

After all the negative stuff, let's remember the great trips.
I took my BiL along once and he thought it was great. It WAS one of the best crews I've flown with; the fact that the FO was engaged to the Chief DID help.
It was also the only trip on which I've used a video camera. Our young ladies laid on an 'incriminating scene' and I recollect telling BiL that I had full editorial control so he'd better be nice to me.

I took the same guy in the TriStar sim and he said it was the best Atari game he'd ever played.

He now thinks we all have a fun, easy job :rolleyes: