Logging Multi pilot time for EASA ATPL

[MitchStick]

To have an EASA ATPL you require 350 hours in multi-pilot helicopters.

For a flight to be accepted as multi-pilot the law that applied to the flight must require 2 pilots.

Now, looking at my case I'm a FAA flight instructor, and when teaching simulated instrument I'm also acting as a safety pilot so the flight requires 2 pilots, one that flies instrument and me "looking outside"

A safety pilot is required by the FAA in 91.109 so the flight HAS to have two pilots.

Could this count towards the 350 hours?

[Bravo73]

No.
No
No
No
No

[Mustapha Cuppa]

During these flights, are you and the other pilot operating in accordance with the principles of MCC?

[jymil]

Nope. You have to have a helicopter certified for multi pilot operations and the operation must require 2 pilots. You don't fulfil the first requirement as CFII.

Definitions as per EASA Part FCL:

‘Multi-pilot operation’:
for helicopters, it means an operation requiring at least 2 pilots using multi-crew cooperation on multi-pilot helicopters.

‘Multi-pilot aircraft’:
for helicopters, airships and powered-lift aircraft, it means the type of aircraft which is required to be operated with a co-pilot as specified in the flight manual or by the air operator certificate or equivalent document.

[MitchStick]

I asked a question not useless sarcasm mr johni, next time you can just keep scrolling as your comments are not welcome.

To everyone else thank you, I thought that was the case but since I'm not familiar with EASA rules it was worth asking..

[OHU]

Hey MitchStick,

i can confirm what jymil says... you will need a real multi crew operation for both- the aircraft and the crew.

What about an FAA ATPL(H)? I heard that you need 100hrs night time to get an FAA ATPL(H), is it true? I'm not familiar with FAA regulations....i'm just curious.

[GoodGrief]

For the curious but not very inqusitive ones...

§61.161 Aeronautical experience: Rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating.

(a) A person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating, must have at least 1,200 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time;
(2) 100 hours of night flight time, of which 15 hours are in helicopters;
(3) 200 hours of flight time in helicopters, which includes at least 75 hours as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof; and
(4) 75 hours of instrument flight time in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, of which at least 50 hours are obtained in flight with at least 25 hours in helicopters as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of a pilot in command under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof.
(b) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(4) of this section, subject to the following:
(1) Training in a flight simulator or a flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents a rotorcraft.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (b)(3) of this section, an applicant may receive credit for not more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator and flight training device.
(3) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(4) of this section if the aeronautical experience is accomplished in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

[MitchStick]

The requirements for FAA ATPL are like GoodGrief says, but in the FAA world is much easier to fly at night you don't need any rating or anything, if you don't carry passengers you can pretty much take off and go build your night time..

[jymil]

Night flights in europe largely depend on the country rules, i.e. NVFR is not allowed in Italy or Spain as far as I know. However, it's legal e.g. in Germany or Switzerland. In Switzerland, you don't even have to file a flight plan. For private flights, you can also take on passengers in a single engine. There are some other limitations, like circuit restrictions and airport opening hours.

So I'd say time building towards the 100 night hours is also feasible in europe, depending on where you are. But the 350 hours multi pilot time is impossible to accomplish without working for a company which does multi pilot operations, i.e. Offshore or VIP. EMS usually don't.

[GoodGrief]

Getting night time in Germany is virtually impossible to 95% of the gang.
Commercial night flights require a twin.

Most companies don't operate twins because customers don't pay for it.
Instruction might be a way but the night rating is not included in the basic PPL and at only about 30 new CPLs a year amongst lots of ATO getting 100 hours night is a lengthy process.

These EU resgs a real nightmare. In the days before JAR all one needed to get an ATP was 900 hours total and a part 29 type rating.
900 hours robbie, a BK117 rating and they blew an ATP up your arse.:ugh:

Nowadays it is impossible to get the 350 hours multi...:ugh:
From one extreme to the next.

Glad to have an FAA ATP.:ok:

[Bravo73]

You are aware of what the 'AT' in 'ATPL' stand for, aren't you?

[GoodGrief]

I'm not sure if I get your point.

[Camp Freddie]

When I first got an ATPL(H) on the old UK national system, all I had to do was have 1200 hours total, 20 hours night plus there was a cross country requirement. You could do that all that in an R22, easier than driving a tram
You didn't even need ATPL(H) exams cos there weren't any, CPL(H) exams were fine
Meaningless of course but there you go

[jymil]

you can pretty much take off and go build your night time..
That didn't sound like commercial flying, but more like private time building.

The bar for ATPL has been indeed raised quite a bit, also on the side of the theoretical exam, which realistically take at least one year to do. Overall I agree it sets a certain high standard, but it also puts up a high barrier. Nowadays it's not so easy to get a job requiring ATPL, because you have to work your way up with different jobs (first get the hours instructing, then you need a single engine turbine job to get turbine time, then you need to upgrade to multi engine to get into offshore, where you finally can log multi crew time).

[helimutt]

and good luck with that these days, because you'll need it :ouch:

[jymil]

just join a UK offshore company with a brand new CPL/IR
You mean the one which requires 250 hours on multi engine for new copilots ?

[jymil]

Pretty much all job postings from offshore companies require 250hrs ME nowadays (currently NHV, Inear, and Bristow always did). This has got to do with OGP requirements.

[hueyracer]

Not quiet right.

Some OGP companies require 250 hours TT for a Copilot position, others 500.

Most of them require time on TYPE, not MET.

And there are still Single Engine Helicopters operating for OGP......

[jymil]

Well, time on the right type is an equally impossible obstacle to getting a job. And I wouldn't count on a quick recovery of oil and gas, just watch the oil price.

The only thing which makes sense to invest now imho is to get the EASA ATPL theory done.

[Bravo73]

Not quiet right.

Some OGP companies require 250 hours TT for a Copilot position, others 500.

Most of them require time on TYPE, not MET.

And there are still Single Engine Helicopters operating for OGP......

Not quite right.

OGP compliant operators require 500hrs MET for >5700kgs and 250hrs for <5700kgs. The requirement is multi-engine aircraft (i.e. aeroplanes are included), not on type.

Its all written down in Appendix 5A, OGP Aircraft Management Guidelines Report No 390. Google will find it for you.

[jymil]

The waiver is correct, but I cannot "undo" my CPL and redo it at the Bristow Academy. Also, going to the US for 2 years to not an option for everybody.

[MitchStick]

That didn't sound like commercial flying, but more like private time building.


To flying commercial you only need 3 take offs and landings within the preceding 90 days, buy you can't just fly anywhere there are more limitations depending on what rules you're following, it's kind of complicated to explain in a sentence.

trying to find a way out of doing the 14 EASA ATPL exams

I'm personally not "trying to find a way out" I'm ok with doing 14 exams even though I find it a bit ridiculous that with an FAA ATPL if you want an EASA one the only thing that count are your flight hours and you have to do all the 14 written tests, I agree that the FAA license is pretty easy compared to other countries but still..

[MitchStick]

under EASA it's proper IFR multi-engine hours

That's what I thought too, but then I found this..

IR(H) Instrument Rating | Aerial Helicopter - Rundflüge, Taxiflüge, Flugschule und Businessflüge (http://www.aerial.at/flugschule/irh-instrument-rating/?lang=en)

[helimutt]

and even with an EASA multi crew licence you'll still be at the back of an ever- extending line of unemployed pilots. :(

[jeepys]

Experience in this industry means everything. On a sliding scale if you compare a Jetranger operation with a North Sea operation the experience of pilot required is totally different. Forget the licence type (although a Atpl is min required for P1) experience is what would be in question.
Jetranger operation on a helo value of £250k with max 4 pax requires a vfr cpl with min hours whereas a S92 helo with value of £28m and 19 pax capacity requires experienced pilots.

Getting into this industry as a private/self improver can be extremely difficult let alone expensive. Anyone who does not do their homework and expects to gain good employment soon after passing out needs a reality check.

[MitchStick]

Man you're annoying when you keep repeating "short cuts" and "cutting corners" WE GET IT!!
Like I said already I'm not trying to cut corners!! Yes I have 1000 hours in an R22 so what, I should kill myself? I never flown in Europe and I'd like to because that's where I'm from, I don't know anything about EASA regulations so I'm asking, (that's the point of a forum right?)

Why would that IFR training not get me an ATPL johni?
And
I'm assuming you're a pilot, how did you get to that straight road with no corners that took you where you are right now?


and even with an EASA multi crew licence you'll still be at the back of an ever- extending line of unemployed pilots.

That could be, I think that to find a job is 50% experience 50% the people you know.

[Heliringer]

"Experience in this industry means everything. On a sliding scale if you compare a Jetranger operation with a North Sea operation the experience of pilot required is totally different. Forget the licence type (although a Atpl is min required for P1) experience is what would be in question.
Jetranger operation on a helo value of £250k with max 4 pax requires a vfr cpl with min hours whereas a S92 helo with value of £28m and 19 pax capacity requires experienced pilots.

Getting into this industry as a private/self improver can be extremely difficult let alone expensive. Anyone who does not do their homework and expects to gain good employment soon after passing out needs a reality check." QUOTE Jeepys

Hmmm, Ok I'll bite at this statement. The S92 is very rarely hand flown, it has the latest and greatest avionics package and more than a few NS Captains have never really done anything else other than platform to platform work in a state of the art helicopter with full operational and engineering support available at all time. You mention experience, the Co pilot probably only has 300 hours on getting a job in the NS.
Not much experience there is there? Then after several years of this he/she will be a Captain with 3000 hours of boring airline type work and mostly straight and level cruise automated flying under their belt.

Now lets look at old mate in the Jet Ranger who is working a fire the size of a small city, precision drops onto Chimneys (burnt out trees) and saving houses whilst listening to 4 radios and getting instructions about drops from ground units. Hot environment and limited vis...no auto pilot here to help out or another crew member to look at gauges. You are on your own.

Or maybe he's doing 100 landings a day to unprepared sites during survey work, with no access to weather forecasts or any other support....just a bunch of Geologists and he is "The Aviation expert" in their eyes. You have got to know everything about your machine and how it works to be good in this sort of environment.

You're thinking about the UK, where pretty much none of this stuff happens but in the big world outside of CAA land there are very very experienced pilots still flogging around in light singles because thats where the challenges are. So please don't assume the bloke flying the light single is a newbie!
Utility flying beats the crap out of platform to platform work or deck to deck stuff. If the offshore money wasn't so good, I don't know many that would do it to be honest. Probably just the lazy ones and the guys who can't cut it in the utility world.
My two bobs worth.

[hueyracer]

It never gets old how people are defending their piece of the grass......


You guys out there in the Jet Rangers have NO Idea how the Offshore business works...

Its not about "how good you land at unprepared landing sites", but about how well you know the (VERY restrictive) procedures that OGP demands.....

You can fly 50 ft above ground and smash the helicopter into a tight landing zone?
:D

Brilliant-but it does not have one single piece of what it takes to fly 100% in line with the books-all the times.....

Have you ever heard of "Stabilized approach criteria", or "sterile cockpit procedures"-or do you have to google it?


I have done both sides-and i prefer any utility job over offshore flying; but offshore flying is where the "big bucks" are....

Offshore is (can be) also a retirement job.........unless you want to get back into a hot and sweaty cockpit, working your balls off......

[jeepys]

Okay Heliringer perhaps I badly worded my post.

I was not implying that a Jetranger pilot is not experienced but that to get a job flying commercially in a 206 in Europe doing light commercial work will not require the most experienced pilot. Someone with 500+ hours would get a look in but a NS commander would have to be a ATPL holder and would have 2500+ min with so many being ME, IR, night hours and multi crew.

Yes the offshore job may not offer as much excitement as some of the utility work but it offers good pay, pension and a pretty stable career (although now is not a good time).

Are you still flying on the NS?

[tu154]

I disagree, I love my offshore job. I love going to work every day. Great bunch of people, and love the job. I've done both instruction and charter before I went to Aberdeen. If the choice was 25k doing that, or offshore, I'll do offshore thanks.

[MitchStick]

johni,
you still haven't told me why that specific IR course in a SE would not get me an ATPL, if the course is approved by EASA why wouldn't it?

[GoodGrief]

you still haven't told me why that specific IR course in a SE would not get me an ATPL, if the course is approved by EASA why wouldn't it?

An IR course gives you an Instrument rating into your license.
You would then have CPL/IR.
You then need MCC training, a MP type rating, 350 hours MP flight time and an ATPL check ride. Then you get an ATPL.

[HeliInn]

Hy guys,
since you seem to be quite fit at this topic:

I have an EASA ATPL(H), I have a MPH Rating, MCC etc. but I have no IFR (yet).

Would it be enough to do the IR course on a SE helicopter ? Or does it have to be on a ME heli ?

Thank you,
HeliInn

[MitchStick]

Oh I understood that I can't get the ATPL cos the 350 hours of Multi crew, I thought you were saying that for some reasonthe Instrument Rating wasn't valid, I can always get CPL and IR and ATPL frozen which I guess you do the theory and then when you have the hours you do the rest I think, right? Not sure on that one either but I'll figure it out.

[jeepys]

The way it used to work which I am sure is still the case:

Example: pass ATPL(H) ground school exams and associated flight test and you will have a shiny new CPL(H) licence drop through your door.

The frozen ATPL exam credits are valid for 3 years from either the date of last exam or flight test pass (cannot remember that bit but I thinks it's the former).

If you do your IR within this period then you will have a CPL(H) IR.

You can then spend so many years getting the rest of the requirements for the issue of ATPL(H), i.e MCC, Night etc.

When you have finally got all the requirements you can do the ATPL flight test upgrade and finally your ATPL(H) will drop through the door.

If you do not do your IR within the three years then you will lose the benefit of being able to do it without taking a number of exams (7 possibly) again.

If you don't want to go through the pain of doing many of the exams again then get the IR done within the three years and worry about the rest of the requirements later.

As I say this is how it used to be under JAR.

[HeliInn]

err, how is that possible?

I don't think an ATPL is necessarily connected to IR. I got it when I transferred my military license into a civilian one. First I had only CPL(H) but a few years ago they changed the procedure and I could geht an ATPL(H) - I did operate in MPH helicopters and I had a TR on a MPH helicopter. All that's missing now is IR, which I'm interested in because of Age 60...

[Sloppy Link]

IR is not required for ATPL(H), just need 30 hours instrument flying time. CAP 804 Section 4 Part F.