Will EK ever improve?

[B777QRH]

The biggest issue for a pilot in EK is the life style. 95-100h per month mixed flying (ULR, LR, SH, night T/A) and very limited leave available.
In other words, EK is seriously short of pilots.
Management solution= lowering the hour requirement to get more people - fine (different beast).

Some seems to think things will be better once more people join.. but will it really?

What is the managements real target? How many hours is their sweet spot for our "productivity"? Even with a million suitable applicants, how many are they planning to recruit to bring the hours down..to..what?
The bracket for productivity pay is 88h, but is that their target for planning?

A new joiner makes AED 29700 plus housing ~14000. Divided in 88h the cost becomes AED 500/hour. Add to that the cost of recruitment, training etc and the real cost will be closer to 600+/h for a new pilot.

So recruiting someone costs them 600+/h while pushing someone into overtime is only 425/h.

So what's the bean counters incentive again?

[Panther 88]

IMHO, the next six months will be telling. Will HD have the ability to make any difference? This airline 10 years ago was a shinning star for pilots for the most part. Will it return to its brilliance or continue on its descent? On one hand, I can be very positive, but on the other hand, past performance does predict future "earnings".

[fatbus]

My guess is it will be 3 to 5 years before things will improve. Right now they are so far behind ( head in the sand)

[lospilotos]

Currently approximately 50 pilots, mostly senior captains, are on long term sick leave (more than a month). While 50 out of 3900 might not sound like a lot, remember that we as pilots are constantly monitored and supposed to be fit and healthy. Wonder how pushing it to the limit is influencing these long term sicknesses....

[SOPS]

Ok I have to jump in here and say...of course pushing it to the limit is making people sick. I can't believe how different I feel after I stopped flying for EK. And that was when the roster was at 92 hours. ( when I joined the average roster was 78 hours)

The older you get, the harder it is. And never kid yourself it's not affecting your health, because it is.

[kcar]

Productivity pay needs to be in excess of the cost to recruit someone.
The only way they can show a true commitment to have the hours lowered would be to increase that substantially.
I'd say a minimum of AED800 per hour is reasonable.
That is not intended for my pocket but as an incentive for managers to have a crewing level back to normal.

I'm in a fairly good position being close to left seat but unless something drastic will happen this spring I'm pulling the plug.
A wide body command and the extra money means nothing if you're a ghost in your own house.

[Cloud Bunny]

Hang on a minute!! A new joiner earns 29700aed??!!!!!
Over 4 years and I'm not on that!! (Nearly but not quite!):{:{:{:ugh:

[kcar]

25320 in basic and 4400 in flying pay based on 88h

[lospilotos]

With double daily ATH and GVA coming up one can only think the hours are gonna get worse...

[Cloud Bunny]

Thank you KCar, makes sense!

Hours wise the rumour I keep hearing is that yes it's going to get worse before it gets better, particularly now with the Panama flight and now the IAH and DFW coming back to the 777 (although slightly offset by the transfer of the IAD to 380). But by the summer apparently we're all going to be working a leisurely 85hrs.
Quite how, I've no idea without a huge influx of newbies, but that's what I've been hearing. Place your bets.....or not in this part of the world - ooops :ooh:

[lospilotos]

Well, they managed a net increase of pilots of 150 in 2015, most of which in the last half. Let's see what 2016 brings...

[Rotating Bacon]

Yes for sure it will get better, I saw a trend the last 18 years, it will definitely get much better, just believe in our managment

[donpizmeov]

Fellas,

The 900 factored hours started in 2003/4 on the 340. It's been ongoing since then.

Recruiting dropped the required hours to 2000hrs jet, as experienced pilots didn't want to come here. And still the hours stayed high.

Nothing has changed. Nothing will change apart from which fleet is being rogered.

[PGA]

The introduction of Panama has been delayed by two months, with only two weeks notice...

Maybe we are indeed very short of crew, since this is very unlike EK.

[nakbin330]

Where'd you get an increase of 150? 3885 pilots at the beginning of 2015. Now?

[fliion]

Afternoon DAR & CMN quietly cancelled.

PTY delayed after big announcement.

The target is mid 80's by Oct.

Recruitment now going well.

(Anyone know whats being tested with blood.?)

Will it improve ? Hours wise probably not. Money wise we always hope but are disappointed.

I've taken a serious look at all options out there - still the best package for a family guy who is oldish for back to the RHS.

Rain, taxes, commuting, LCCs and the much vaunted civilized world - all yours - I'll take the car, the Command, the housing, the schooling, the little things you get with a full service airline. the route network, and all the great guys I fly with over that - but that's just me. Though I might change if my health starts to suffer.

Disclosure - I've been lucky with wife, school, health, housing and we grab Dubai for what it offers and make it work for us - couldn't imagine if any or all were less than optimal.

BUT I would like to fly less, get vacay AND to feel valued - the lack of engagement from the third floor has been poor

HD & JA apparently tight - let's hope.

Prepared for incoming from the 'tools' & 'driver' haters.

[B777QRH]

Recruitment meeting Feb-2014 planning the 2015 financial year.

AAR: "How many (pilots) do we need for the pilots to get 30 days of leave?"
MK: "550"
AAR: "Ok, how many do wee need in order to keep the airplanes flying regardless of the leave?"
MK: "390"
AAR: "Ok, plan for 400"

Not from the cousins drivers friend..

[Monarch Man]

What a LOADED question, I'd love to think it would, or at least it would return too where it was when I joined almost a decade ago.
But, lets be honest for a moment, there will have to be a personnel and attitude changes for it to improve beyond anything superficial.
A good start for me would be going back to 85 hours unfactored, and removing any restrictions on days off beyond those that are required for rest.
That would in my opinion give many of us the chance to escape the vegas of the the ME on our longer blocks of days off and ensure our tenure was longer. It would also have the effect of showing many who presently view this place as a sweatshop that the reality is, employees are valued, just like the HR propoganda spouts.
As Marco Ramius said ... www.youtube.com/watch?v=quIJTGjlh8o

[777-200LR]

I wasnt aware of the PTY 'delay', but did anyone know about the A380 change to IAD before the beginning of this week? Again its not like EK to make a fleet change (especially a 'Super') with such short notice.

The pinch is hurting and it shows, I've said it before, why leave now? The eye of the storm is hitting and you've got a front row seat!

[homoeconomicus]

The answer is NO !

[White Sausage]

Nope, never! Been here too long to expect any change for the better. I changed from pessimism to realism. Preparing to leave as soon as possible...

[Kapitanleutnant]

I think each of you know that the ONLY way things will change is if one particular individual leaves the company. I'm pretty sure you all know who that is....

Until that day, NOTHING will change.

K

[homoeconomicus]

Nope, never! Been here too long to expect any change for the better. I changed from pessimism to realism. Preparing to leave as soon as possible...

Makes both of us and many more I'm sure :-)

[kcar]

What they need to to is two things:
1. Explain to everybody clearly what they're planning to bring the hours down to (if at all).
2. Show a serious commitment to do so. i.e increase productivity pay a lot! Not for us to make more money but create an incentive for the company to bring them down, if that actually is that plan in the first place.

If they're honest about their target as well as showing a thought out plan how to meet that, then maybe people would stay put a little longer and even go as far as helping them achieve that.

Without a serious plan in place I'm gone by the summer.

[notapilot15]

Two possibilities

1) MH partnership. MH getting rid of WBs. So for all those type-rated pilots, EK is easy pick.

2) Atlas deal. This could be a bait and switch. Give cargo to Atlas, attract pilots and take back cargo ops. All those suckers who didn't want to join EK, now in EK's basket.

I don't think EK is able attract even from third world countries. No airline is training pilots without any bond.

[Uplink]

I can't believe people still talk here about pay rises, productivity and profit share.....

I have been around a while and since I have joined they have cut and cut and cut. IT WILL NOT GET BETTER..this is it, it is what you see. If anything it will get worse. How long do you hold on for in the vain hope that conditions will improve?

The target for the bonus is set way too high. The world is in financial and political turmoil. Oil prices are down and dropping more. You will get nothing this year....nada. If you are waiting for the bonus before you leave you are just wasting your time.

The company have adjusted their recruitment to lower hour TP guys. They will be trained and come on line and the show will go on. When I joined, the joiners were in groups of 4 and 8. They are now taking blocks of 15 and 20. There are no shortage of plots waiting to join.

The money issue.....people are saying that we need a huge pay rise to stop the rot.. It is way past money. It should now not be about money as you are selling yourself cheap. It is quality of life and that's it. They can barely give us the legal 30 days leave a year. Most of the time, it's when THEY want you to have leave. I bid for leave in FEB, MAR and April.....nothing. They are asking people to sell back their leave. People are doing this. The show then keeps going. One guy in here was happy to work on his day off and get call out pay.....work out how cheap you have just prostituted yourself for.... The company are laughing at us because no matter how bad it has got, the planes keep flying and we are getting more and more fatigued.

Life should be now about self preservation and your health. Our work patterns are not sustainable.... We are all heading for an early grave...the management (JA) has even said if you don't like it leave, it's not going to get any better. The DCP's are congratulating people and wishing them good luck when they leave. They are seeing the writing on the wall... But still there is no shortage of new joiners. They are joining at a rate faster than I have ever seen.... Loads are resigning and still it carries on.. I don't see any parked aircraft, I hear the wheels have come off.... Have they ? The odd flight is delayed but there is no real disruption...the odd flight can't be crewed and yet somehow they still manage to get the flights away. I was asked to fly over new year as they "have no capts to cover the flights" I refused, but both flights went....and so on and so on....

What are you waiting for? Conditions to improve? They are not going to improve. The company is a master at moving the goalposts. They have done it countless times. We get pissed off for a while, we bitch and moan on here, then life just carries on. EK is solely about money. They don't care about you or me....its all lip service.

You will get no real payrise, no profit share this year and some cheap productivity that is pushing your hours to 100 per month. Is it really worth it. The productivity trigger used to be 82 hours. The odd European flight given after that was sustainable as our hours were 70-80.... Now they "gave" us back 5 hours of productivity in order to keep the hours high. Remember when the company, after they increased the productivity to 92 hours, wouldn't let us do one hour over....now they lower it by 5 and increase the hours by 10... They sell it to us as a wonderful thing. It's CHEAP labour. You are dealing with the resourcefulness and management skills of 3rd world managers who would sell their own grandmothers to make a buck.

We are quite simply getting screwed over and there going to be no change..... Stop working in your days off and look after yourselves. Stop selling your leave back to the company because it means they can keep the train on the rails. If the wheels have come off, why is the train still running??????

[AlanPardew]

The train is grinding to a halt; March/April will be the first months that there are not enough pilots.
They are getting close to the recruitment figures since accepting turboprop pilots however retention is a huge issue.
The target was set high however it would appear it will be met with some comfort, the oil price has helped out there however it has also deepened the manpower issue. Airlines in Europe, Asia and USA are starting to grow and recruit (heavily in some cases).
If there is no profit share along with anything less than a 15% pay rise I fear for the expansion plans at the very least. There's many pilots awaiting the pay review to decide whether to stay or go - and with job offers/options, yes, they are serious.

Alan Pardew

[mansaloco]

Finally the bubble is about to burst......

[donpizmeov]

I think you missed the decimal between the 1 and the 5 in that pay rise estimate. There will be no extra money. And the rosters will stay the same.

[LHR Rain]

Great post uplink and you are right nothing will change. We are doomed for an early grave.
Why do you think Apr is the time the wheels come off Alan? I admit the company has kept it together so far but you can only rob from Paul to pay Peter only so long.

[T7flyer77]

E.K has the stupidest recruitment process lately, the stuff they have been taking in are happy to get ratings & run out in the first oppurtunity. While others go for experience ... With better results offcourse ... Their re applying period is an illogical 24 months while industry practice is 6 months. They have themselves discouraged ppl to apply. & then they feel they are doing some rocket science in all this.

[777-200LR]

Nice post Uplink...although is the train really still running? It didn't surprise you that the A380 will be introduced at such short notice to IAD, doesn't news like that be announced months in advance as a PR stunt? The best one I can think of lately is the PTY delay due to 'awaiting approval', hasn't PTY been on the cards for almost a year?

Maybe you're right, but the way I see it, almost the entire 777 workforce have been doing roughly 90-100 hrs over the last 9 months, so what will they do when we have maxed out of the 900 hrs (after tax of factoring, tax of 30 leave days etc.) over the next 2-3 months? How will the train be still running when they realise they can't give us all sim supports, Freighter, Japan augment and DOH/BAHs to keep your hours down??

[fatbus]

How did you know they were parked?

[fliion]

777200LR

Fact check.

PTY was announced in August not a year ago.

IAD was upgraded to A380 on short notice because United announced 10/12/15 that they were pulling out of DXB due the US GSA govt employee contract being switched from UAL to JB which in essence became EK.

Let's not let the truth get in the way of hyperbole

Tirren source on 'definitely' parked because that would indeed be proprietary information that we would all be interested in.

[donpizmeov]

Rumour has it PTY was pushed into next financial year to minimise the red ink in this year's figures.

[keepitrealok]

Not sure how Tirren knows 'definitely,' but I'd consider anything sitting at the newly completed-yet strangely-not-open-terminal as an 'excess' of capacity.

But that is just opinion, not fact.

[harry the cod]

Those 'parked' aircraft over at the new concourse are part of the required trials for parking, ground movement and other regulatory stipulations before a terminal can be official used. Need to read those emails better boys.... they were looking for volunteers recently, including family, to help with the inside too?!!!

Good post Uplink by he way......

Harry

[vfenext]

Your opinion is incorrect. Aircraft parked at the new terminal are there due to lack of stands. They're towed to active gates regularly and as for the 380's being parked they are on the S stands awaiting either maintenance, cabin conversions/alterations or parking trials. Way too much amateur conspiracies being peddled here, but that's no surprise given the usual suspects present.

[BigGeordie]

Could be a shortage of parking stands rather than an excess of capacity. I've had a couple of departures at outstations delayed because no stands were available in Dubai if we had arrived early.

[harry the cod]

That may well be the case but I can assure vfenext that some aircraft have been used recently as part of the terminal pre opening procedures. That's not opinion, that's fact.

Either way, these aircraft are not parked there long term due lack of crew.

Harry