UK and Russia discuss 'incursions' into British FIR

[Treble one]

Reported by the BBC


UK and Russia discuss aircraft 'incursions' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35076794)

[smujsmith]

Of course, nothing to do with ;

US and Nato troops begin Ukraine military exercise - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29204505)

Whatever, incursions ? I suspect the Russians are only guilty of flying through UK ATC control zones, not UK airspace. If I'm wrong I'm sure there are plenty who can educate me. Does Fallon want to shoot them down, as Turkey does ? Is he that bloody stupid ?

Smudge

[Geordie_Expat]

I suspect the Russians are only guilty of flying through UK ATC control zones, not UK airspace.

That is just what is quoted on the BBC link. You have made your opinion of politicians clear on many occasions but keep it for when you have reason.

[Onceapilot]

One of the issues is uncoordinated flight in procedural rules airspace. The more it is done, the more chance of a big nasty.:uhoh:

OAP

[smujsmith]

Oh dear, Geordie Expat, perhaps I've touched a raw nerve there. I assure you that I have no "political" agenda whatsoever. I only offer the fact that media will proffer conflicting opinion on any subject. As far as my own "political opinion" goes, I'm astounded that anyone could make a statement like " You have made your opinions on politicians clear on many occasions", I rather think you may be confusing me with someone else, I do try to avoid politics on PPRUNE old chap !!

OAP, quite right sir.

Smudge :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

Geordie, what a strange reaction there, fella. A bit harsh.

As for Smuj and his political opinions, I think you've got the wrong bloke. I can't even think of a time when that would apply to Smuj.

[PersonFromPorlock]

Little ado about not very much. Back in the day, 'incursions' - by East and West - were routine. A little poking the wasps' nest, a little ELINT... mostly good clean fun.

[glad rag]

Suppose it depends on who's doing the talking and whose doing the listening really...

[eastern wiseguy]

I suspect the Russians are only guilty of flying through UK ATC control zones, not UK airspace.

As an ex NATS ATCO I have struggled to make sense of that word salad. I presume you are using the term "control zones" to mean something different to my definition of "control zone"?

If you are.....what do you mean? Ta 🙂

[bike2lv]

smuj probably means airspace 'controlled' by the UK ie UKFIR as opposed to 'territorial airspace'. House of Commons - Defence Committee - Written Evidence (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmdfence/276/276we22.htm) , from 2009 has a map of the FIR and info on 'incursions' over the preceding years. Hardly like in the 'good old days' tho.

No wonder BBC reported it- notice the ' BBC Russia' markings on the Bear's fin & rudder!

[smujsmith]

Thanks bike, FIR is probably more what I meant. I've never been an Air Trafficker !

Smudge :ok:

[Geordie_Expat]

Smudge,

My unreserved apology. I had indeed mistaken you for another who, whilst usually posting reasonable stuff, gets a bit hairy when talking politics.

Please excuse me while I take a few minutes to extract my foot from my all-too-big mouth.

[Onceapilot]

Well Folks, IMO it is far worse than these comments suggest. Non-notified or covert Russian traffic can be actively tracked in the UK FIR. But outside this area , in Shanwick Oceanic North Atlantic Airspace for instance, safe deconfliction depends upon compliance with proceedural flying and active notification to the controling authority, in this case Shanwick. The FOI should be extended to clarify the level of risk that the recent Russian flights have posed to North Atlantic traffic and, what the UK Gov interprets as an acceptable risk?:uhoh:

OAP

[smujsmith]

Geordie Expat,

No problems whatsoever sir, and thank you for your post. I was beginning to worry that I was a radical of some sort. Keep smiling, and keep posting, there's nothing wrong with anyone who can correct an error (I often have to). Now, back on topic.

Best

Smudge :ok:

[Skeleton]

As an ex Air Traffiker, and given I avoided West Drayton and similar places like the plague, the problem as Onceapilot describes and as I remember it, is not traffic in the UK FIR, which can be tracked and dealt with. It is non-notified traffic wandering about Shanwick's control area unaided that is the issue and is pretty scary stuff, I can't see any acceptable risk but how do you deal with it? I guess that is why the UK is talking to the Russians.