FAF to buy 4 RAF C-130J??

[ORAC]

A possibility or a price haggling bluff?

France Considered Purchase of UK C-130s (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/support/2015/12/10/france-considered-purchase-uk-c-130s/77092356/)

PARIS — An acquisition of secondhand Super Hercules C-130Js flown by the British Royal Air Force was one of the options considered by France, which seeks to buy four C-130 transport planes to boost support for troops deployed across sub-Saharan Africa, two defense sources said.

The Direction Générale de l’Armement procurement office “raised at the start of December” the option, which sparked some surprise, a French defense specialist said. Britain, which was launch customer for the Super Hercules, is looking to sell the first 10 acquired and hold on to the remaining 14 planes.

“The British C-130Js are an option for France,” said US Army Col. John "Walt" Kennedy, chief of the Office of Defense Cooperation, here. The systems, including avionics, on those early models will need to be upgraded.

A DGA spokesman declined comment.

On Tuesday, US officers in Washington briefed DGA officials, who sought clarification on the offer of four C-130Js, announced last month by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency. The US Air Force has offered an accelerated delivery schedule.

A ministerial decision on the C-130 is expected to be taken in the next two weeks, following the US briefing.

The US technical briefing set out in detail the elements of the offer, which carried a maximum price of $650 million. That figure sparked initial French concern as it far exceeded the €330 million (US $360.9 million) earmarked for the planned C-130 acquisition.

That “top price” of $650 million covered clearance for future upgrades and was intended to speed up their delivery to France.

[KenV]

France seeks to buy four C-130s? Hmmmmm. Two comments:

1. One C-17 can carry the payload of four C-130s and carry it farther. There's one unsold C-17 left. Maybe France can get a good deal from Boeing on that last C-17? And it would not need to be upgraded first like those old C-130s.

2. One A400M is equal to two C-130. Why aren't they buying two more A400M?

[salad-dodger]

Surely Ken you would know that there are things that a C-130J can do that a A400M or a C17 can't. Is this one of those rare occasions when you are not the worlds leading authority on everything?

S-D

[GlobalNav]

Perhaps it makes sense, temporarily, to operate and support a small number of airplanes of a new type. But considering the crew training, parts, maintenance etc. - a huge overhead for such a small number. And for a single C-17, regardless of its known capabilities - hardly makes sense.

I don't know the actual numbers, but having fewer than 8 airplanes of a type seems like an unnecessarily expensive route for airlift. And it can't be hard to sell them later, they would be in demand for a long time, I would think.

In the interim, though perhaps it would make sense to participate in NATO's strategic airlift consortium.

[juliet]

Ken,

One C-17 needs 4 C-130 loads to fill it up, which isn't always that convenient. One C-17 can only be in one place at a time, while 4 C-130 can be in....
Same arguments for the A400.

Isn't the French deal all basically about tanking, which the A400 hasn't managed for them? They can buy Herks and have an instant tanker with all the clearances and experience and no mucking around.

[KenV]

Surely Ken you would know that there are things that a C-130J can do that a A400M or a C17 can't.Indeed I do. But according to the article, France "seeks to buy four C-130 transport planes to boost support for troops deployed across sub-Saharan Africa." "Surely" you read the article. And "surely" you know C-130, A400M, and C-17 can all provide such support.

And for the record, I have never remotely claimed, suggested, or implied that I'm a "leading authority" on anything. You dreamed that up all on your own. Perhaps you should stick to dodging salad.

[KenV]

Ken, One C-17 needs 4 C-130 loads to fill it up, which isn't always that convenient.Agreed. But it all depends on the situation/scenario. For example, instead of flying four C-130s to four different forward locations using four crews, one could fly one C-17 to all four locations in sequence using one crew. USAF uses this type of round robin shuttle technique very effectively. However, if something happens to the one and only C-17 in your fleet (including a heavy maintenance cycle), you're screwed. Indeed its tough to make sense of owning just one (or just four) of any type aircraft. It would make far more sense to buy one C-17 and join the C-17 SAC Consortium. I don't know of any similar C-130 Consortiums.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Airlift_Capability

Plus the single new C-17 at book price costs considerably less than the quoted price for the four used C-130s ($650 million after upgrades!!). And Boeing would probably sell that last white tail at well below book price.

Isn't the French deal all basically about tanking, which the A400 hasn't managed for them?Not according to the linked article. According to the article France "seeks to buy four C-130 transport planes to boost support for troops deployed across sub-Saharan Africa". There is no mention of tanking.

[salad-dodger]

Have you perhaps thought Kenny that the French may have thought this through for themselves?

I for one don't know exactly how the French are looking to use these aircraft and nor I suspect do you. I also suspect Kenny that you well know why the French may be looking at the C-130J rather than C17 or A400M. You wouldn't be up to your usual mischief making now would you?

S-D

[snippy]

Can't we give them 4 of our C130Js that sit on the ground U/S most of the time?




Oh sorry that's normally called most of the fleet......:ok:

[NutLoose]

Why would they want a C-17?
I thought they had an agreement to utilise ours, that way Hercs would seem the logical choice and when the need arises for larger loads subcontract one of our C-17's.

[Courtney Mil]

The A400M delays have left L'Armée de l'Air short of tactical airlift. They don't need to buy C17, they're doing that A400 and the C130s and 160s are in need of a new bucket. That said, their tac insertion requirements in Africa are seen as better served by 130 than A400.

We did have an excellent low level fly by over the house by a Transall this afternoon. Looking forward to seeing a low lever A400M over here one day.

[Ken Scott]

Can't we give them 4 of our C130Js that sit on the ground U/S most of the time?



Which of the hard working fleet are you talking about? Whilst I realise that you're being 'funny' that sort of comment is straight out of the 'K v J' thread of yesteryear and doesn't relate to the worth of an aircraft that's just been extended in service by the RAF for precisely the same reason that the FAF are looking to procure it - because the A400M isn't yet able to carry out its intended tactical role in both air forces.

[juliet]

Ken,

From what I've read, here (US Officials To Brief French on Possible C-130 Buy (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/support/2015/11/13/us-officials-brief-french-possible-c-130-buy/75706774/)) amongst other sources, tanking is most certainly the order of the day. All I've read indicates a buy of two regular frames and two tankers.

Edit: in fact if you read the entirety of the original linked article it clearly talks about two being tankers.

[Old-Duffer]

I know that I'm a 'little slow on the uptake' but I thought SDSR 2015 said we were going to keep our C130Js after all.

What have I missed Duuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Old Duffer

[ORAC]

No OD, according to CAS they intend to retain just 14 out of 24 of the fleet.

Even with a couple of spares that leads enough to supply the FAF.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/570102-sdsr-rumours-16.html#post9201385

[Just This Once...]

Our intent is to keep the remaining Mk4 fleet and sell all ten Mk5 aircraft.

[Wander00]

Hope we get more for them (on proportion) than we received for the Harriers sold to the US........................

[Evalu8ter]

.......swap for a Mistral class to replace HMS Ocean?

[Old-Duffer]

Thank you for Posts from ORAC and JTO, putting me straight - I shall try to keep up in future!

O-D

[NutLoose]

Haven't we got a shed full of unused C130K's still sitting at Saints?

[Ken Scott]

There are probably some old DC3s kicking around too but the FAF might want something a little more up to date......

[Lockstock]

Haven't we got a shed full of unused C130K's still sitting at Saints?

No we haven't.

What do you mean by an 'unused C130K?'. :confused:

[sandiego89]

There has been plenty on this buy Ken, the FAF desires capability the A-400 and the C-17 can't provide. C-130's are a good, proven, fit for Africa. Supporting "troops" as per the article can mean all kinds of things- tactical life, tanker fighter detachments in Chad, etc. Some articles.

"planned acquisition of four Lockheed Martin Hercules C-130 transport planes, of which two would be armed with the Griffin missile and two would be equipped for inflight refueling of helicopters..."

France Boosts Arms Spending, Eyes C-130 Buy (http://www.defensenews.com/story/breaking-news/2015/05/20/france-budget-hercules-c130-boost-sahel-africa-inflight-refueling-tiger-helicopter-frigate/27652679/)

".....The KC-130Js will provide crucial air refuelling capability to France's fighter aircraft, light transport aircraft and helicopters," it added, in a statement."

Read more at:
French military to buy US Lockheed Martin C-130 transport aircraft - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/49760928.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst)

C-130's are a good, proven, fit for Africa.