AFE Air Law Problem [Archive]

blendy

1st Dec 2015, 21:23

Hellooo (^_^)

In the AFE books, Air Law page 63, Q69: "You are flying IFR outside controlled airspace on a magnetic track of 175 degrees below FL195. What are the correct flight level options?" To which the answer would be for example FL030, FL050, FL070? However in the answers, it says that the correct levels would be for example FL035, FL055, FL075 etc. Can anybody kindly point out what im missing? Thanks guys!

blendy

1st Dec 2015, 21:41

My book is the latest edition, revised this september.

On page law59, under the table which shows what FL can be selected in IFR, 000-179 degrees; FL030, FL050, FL070 etc... i don't understand why the answers would say FL035, FL055 etc, as they are VFR levels according to the table on the previous page?

EDIT: sorry in my original post, I meant to say (i think) the answer should be FL030, FL050, FL070 etc, not FL040, FL060...

alex90

1st Dec 2015, 23:55

I think you got your answer above, you are right - semi-circular rule should apply, but if the question is old and abided by the (now obsolete) quadrantal rule [which I much preferred to the semi circular] it is the right answer to the wrong year. Perhaps a misprint?

IFR should be odd flight levels now 0 to 179. Ie. FL050 FL070 etc... (Careful with transition altitude the first FL may not be useable)

However just to confuse you - should it have been VFR ATC will normally insist on flying at flight level +500 when flying above the transition altitude.

Hope this helps!
Alex

Mach Jump

2nd Dec 2015, 04:32

blendy

2nd Dec 2015, 08:58

Thanks for all the reassurance guys, its good to know i wasn't being daft (^_^)

BackPacker

2nd Dec 2015, 09:20

Just to clarify things a bit, the UK has had the "quadrantal rule" for ages, where a new FL was applied for every 90 degrees of heading. The UK was about the only country in the world which used this.

About a year or so ago EASA implemented SERA, the Standardised European Rules of the Air. SERA applies the semi-circular rule (FL based on headings that are 180 degrees apart, with different levels for VFR and IFR) across the whole of EASA-land, including the UK.

The textbooks and exams are now playing catch-up. Like they've been doing for the last five years when EASA has taken over various portions of aviation legislation.

blendy

4th Dec 2015, 19:04

I seem to have found another issue in the following chapter; law115, q113; "What is the validity of a JAR-FCL Class 2 Medical if you are 37?" to which the answer given is 2 years... shouldnt it be 60 months/5 years?

foxmoth

4th Dec 2015, 19:26

should it have been VFR ATC will normally insist on flying at flight level +500 when flying above the transition altitude.

The question said outside CAS - ATC cannot insist on you flying at ANY level!

Mach Jump

4th Dec 2015, 19:31

The correct answer is 60 months, or until 42nd birthday, whichever comes sooner.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2499/20140911CertValidityTable.pdf

MJ:ok:

Ps. Is that really the latest AFE book? There's no such thing as JAR now!

blendy

4th Dec 2015, 19:43

alex90

4th Dec 2015, 22:47

The question said outside CAS - ATC cannot insist on you flying at ANY level!

Well experience has proven to the contrary of your statement. I have often been requested / asked / pushed towards +500 for VFR during my touring (mostly in Europe may I add) I recall a time earlier this year when French ATC advised me that "the only flight level available for you VFR is FL85 or FL105" whilst flying in uncontrolled airspace at FL100.

But this is perhaps a little off topic?

alex90

5th Dec 2015, 11:17

Just for the sake of completeness though...

http://flightcrewguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Semicircular-Cruising-Level-System-ICAO.png

And in case anyone is interested! :-)

Best
Alex

fisbangwollop

5th Dec 2015, 16:18

FoxmothThe question said outside CAS - ATC cannot insist on you flying at ANY level!

The question also said IFR.........no need for ATC to enforce it, you could be flying IFR outside CAS in class G airspace but if operating IFR the rules state you should comply with the Semi Circular rule even if not talking to ATC!

gemma10

5th Dec 2015, 16:25

So now I`m going to ask a dumb question. In the IFR chart under EVEN why after 400 does it go ODD to 510?

foxmoth

5th Dec 2015, 18:38

I have often been requested / asked / pushed towards +500 for VFR during my touring (mostly in Europe may I add) I recall a time earlier this year when French ATC advised me that "the only flight level available for you VFR is FL85 or FL105" whilst flying in uncontrolled airspace at FL100.

So don't talk to them, then they can't "push" you! Also to note that if you are in VMC outside CAS there is nothing to stop you flying IFR which then makes FL100 available!

Fishbang, I was only responding to the post, not myself differentiating between IFR and VFR.

Mach Jump

5th Dec 2015, 19:58

So now I`m going to ask a dumb question. In the IFR chart under EVEN why after 400 does it go ODD to 510?

Firstly, there are no 'dumb' questions, only inadequate answers.;)

Because, at higher altitudes, the physical gap between the Flight Levels gets smaller, and at some point, there has to be an increase in the Pressure Altitude between the Cruising Levels, to maintain the physical distance between the aircraft.

I recall a time earlier this year when French ATC advised me that "the only flight level available for you VFR is FL85 or FL105" whilst flying in uncontrolled airspace at FL100.

Whereabouts in France were you, where there was uncontrolled airspace at FL100?

MJ:ok:

alex90

5th Dec 2015, 21:58

So don't talk to them, then they can't "push" you! Also to note that if you are in VMC outside CAS there is nothing to stop you flying IFR which then makes FL100 available!

Haha! So true... But unfortunately I'd rather speak to someone. I am rather impartial to the altitude / flight levels unless there is considerable tailwind / headwind components to take into account. With regards to IFR vs VFR, I don't have an IR yet, I am working on the ground school which is extensive - I only hold the IR(r) which in Europe does not allow me to fly IFR.

Whereabouts in France were you, where there was uncontrolled airspace at FL100?

I was here:
http://alexreynier.co.uk/flying/IMG_9283.JPG
Just south of Cherbourg's zone flying towards Rennes Saint Jacques. It is mostly uncontrolled until you reach Rennes' zone. Their clearance through the zone was quite literally "OK cleared, report overhead" which I thought was brilliant!

I think we may perhaps have gone on a tangent to the original question though? ;-)

foxmoth

6th Dec 2015, 00:04

I only hold the IR(r) which in Europe does not allow me to fly IFR.not quite correct AIUI, ANYONE can fly IFR outside CAS ( and often inside CAS), but if you do not have the right qualifications you cannot do so in IMC, there is a difference between RULES and CONDITIONS.

Mach Jump

6th Dec 2015, 01:01

not quite correct AIUI, ANYONE can fly IFR outside CAS ( and often inside CAS), but if you do not have the right qualifications you cannot do so in IMC, there is a difference between RULES and CONDITIONS.

In the brave new world of EASA, I don't think you can fly IFR, anywhere, at any time now, without an IR, EIR, or, in the UK only, an IR(R).

I believe that it was EASA who confused IFR and IMC, when they wrote the new rules.:sad:

Just south of Cherbourg's zone flying towards Rennes Saint Jacques.

I don't have an IFR chart immediately to hand, but, if I remember correctly, isn't the entire area between Cherbourg Zone and Rennes Zone criss-crossed with Airways from about FL50 upwards?

MJ:ok:

Ps. Once the OP's question has been answered, I think it's fair play to allow the thread to drift a bit, so long as it's an interesting discussion.

BillieBob

6th Dec 2015, 08:31

ANYONE can fly IFR outside CAS ( and often inside CAS), but if you do not have the right qualifications you cannot do so in IMCNot true. FCL.600 holds the correct answer:Except as provided in FCL.825*, operations under IFR on an aeroplane, helicopter, airship or powered-lift aircraft shall only be conducted by holders of a PPL, CPL, MPL and ATPL with an IR appropriate to the category of aircraft or when undergoing skill testing or dual instructionNo mention of flight conditions so it applies in both IMC and VMC.

*FCL.825 relates to the EIR

tmmorris

6th Dec 2015, 08:39

Do you think that was deliberate or as MJ implied a cockup?

foxmoth

6th Dec 2015, 10:38

Hold my hands up to be totally wrong, not kept up with the changes as I should have done!:ooh:
AIUI now, in the UK you do not have to abide by the VFR cruising levels, in Europe I believe You do!
The semicircular level system replaces the quadrantal system and brings the UK into line with ICAO standards applied elsewhere around the world. VFR and IFR aircraft are allocated different levels to fly at:

IFR flights use whole 1000's of feet (e.g. 1000, 3000 etc when flying eastbound, and 2000, 4000 etc. when flying westbound)
VFR flights use the intermediate 500ft levels (e.g. 3500, 5500 etc. when flying eastbound and 4500, 6500 when flying westbound)
For VFR flights, compliance with the cruising levels remains good practice but is not mandatory.

alex90

6th Dec 2015, 11:40

I don't have an IFR chart immediately to hand, but, if I remember correctly, isn't the entire area between Cherbourg Zone and Rennes Zone criss-crossed with Airways from about FL50 upwards?

My IFR map indicates that there is a criss cross of ATS routes, you are definitely right. But to the best of my interpretations they do not appear to be a classed airspace. Perhaps someone can enlighten us? To the best of my (perhaps poor?) understanding the class D airspace on my route started at FL115, and whilst there are lower level ATS routes they are not "controlled" classed airspace.

Either way - during my trip I was in contact with ATC at all times, and it didn't appear that I was within controlled airspace even if I was (no clearance, no headings, no requests, just the weird statement posted above).

Foxmoth! You almost had me thinking that I needed to re-review the privileges of my license... I was absolutely sure that I was not allowed to do that! But anyhow - soon I hope to be fully IR qualified! :-)

best.
alex

Mach Jump

6th Dec 2015, 15:57

Do you think that was deliberate or as MJ implied a cockup?

Many journalists have fallen for the conspiracy theory of government. I do assure you that they would produce more accurate work if they adhered to the cock-up theory.

— Bernard Ingham.

MJ:ok: