EK XMAS ROSTER

[kennedy]

What the Fxck!!!!:{:{:{

[ExDubai]

Tell us more.... :}

[halas]

Rostered 100.6 hours! :sad:

No ULR no dead-head no Xmas off.

halas

[kennedy]

B777 Left seat, top 20% of seniority list, bottom bid.

95 hrs, handling sim, 0 preference bids attained!

Fxcking awful trips to boot!:ugh::{:ugh:

The bucket getting filled up quickly at this moment!

[Ophion]

Top bid month:

6 days leave..
9 days off...
Ground school...
Handling Sim...
2 x PPC Sim...

+ 71:20 of flying.

That's over 95 hours of duty in 16 days.

[Cenrifugel]

This is starting to get crazy. 5 days leave, PPC, 8 days off, 76hrs. How is this sustainable.

[3Greens]

its sustainable because noone calls in fatigued or refuses a duty. Why wouldn't they try to max out the "resources". I don't agree with it, but moaning on pprune about it, yet not confronting management or going fatigued isn't going to cut it. They only understand one thing...$$$

[White Knight]

Top bid
Days off over Christmas (7 actually)
Two flights and a sim!

Works for me....

[Capn Rex Havoc]

The new roster system is working great- for the company. :)

[OnceBitten]

Top Bid, 3 returns, 2 sim supports, 3 flights in the total opposite direction to my bids. WTF!!!!!!!!! Great bidding system, not!

If I didn't know any better I'd nearly take it personally. :hmm:

[emratty]

The 380 is now almost a separate airline 7 days in a row 4 great trips in middle bid.

[harry the cod]

kennedy

Mate, it doesn't matter if you're number 1 on the seniority list. If you're in bottom bid, you'll get crap. That's the way a rotating bid system works. The clue is in the name.....rotating!

Come back and complain when you get nothing whatsoever in your top month ok!

Harry

OnceBitten

Did you get your request? Assume it was Days Off over Xmas? Just asking as optimiser will try for your preferences but your seniority does not work within the group for that and it'll also try to max efficiency in roster by giving flights elsewhere to cover your string of days off that it's already given you...5 I assume?

[Calmcavok]

According to our illustrious leader, it's innovation week in the UAE.

Rostering have certainly embraced that with the December schedule.

[ekpilot]

EK is now officially declared crazy. Close to 100 hours 2 ULRs, 1 turn, 5 EU flights all night flights. Crazy... Just plain Crazy! You need to be an idiot to even consider this outfit. Only Harry the ... Will be left here soon.

[fliion]

Mid bid.

101 published roster.

9 DXB layovers

Of course the above is based on starting duty 60min prior - so throw on another 4-5 hours.

The company should be ashamed of themselves.

Gulf air indeed.

f.

[Buford]

100.5 hours :mad:
So much for spending any quality family time with the wife and kids over Christmas....

[harry the cod]

fliion

Then put your money where your mouth is and turn up 61 minutes before hand. Nobody forces you to brief the crew....they expect you to. If it bothers you that much, don't do it. I don't, especially for an early if it violates the previous day off. I've had zero feedback. What can they say?

Let us all know how you get on! ;)

Harry

[fliion]

Already did Harry.

Put my money where my mouth was. Was brought in by the fresh prince - and given an informal chat, - if it continues disciplinary proceedings.

Raised it again in a wash up in from of witnesses with above - told them that it was manipulation of FDPs and Co was putting themselves in jeopardy if there was a stewards after an accident..was told "you made your point, let's move on"

Nice to see you continue to defend.

I'll give you one thing - you're consistent.

[troff]

Got nothing I bid for but got wife's office Christmas party off, Christmas and NYE off, and a particular night out to see a band.
Total 96 hours including 23 hours of D/H. Odd.
I attended one of the information sessions at EGHQ and was told that the system can accept way more than five bid selections.
Wonder when that will happen?
Livin' the dream…
"Work-work-work-work…"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNxz2hhSXuY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoZE0nE60sk&list=RDYoZE0nE60sk#t=32

[fatbus]

Exactly what I bid for

[CAT3A]

B777 Left seat
100hrs
10 Days off

Getting closer and closer to that day.......

[TangoUniform]

Remember, it's 100 in 28 days, so probably legal. And if you're doing an ULR, for duty your augmenting rest doesn't count for your monthly max flight hours. I think that's still the case. Oh you'll get paid for the total flight hours. That's your pay raise.

[Monarch Man]

B777 left seat
85ish hours, No ULRs
12 days off (2 blocks of 5)
Working Christmas, but the trip is to home so will have chrimbo at home.
Have done my homework on this bidding system, so far so good.

[Twiglet1]

Working for EK would one expect Christmas Off, isn't it just another day?
EK Pilot
2 ULRs, 1 turn, 5 EU flights all night flights

F***ing hell, you sure cant squeeze a quick turn in there....

[motojet]

Middle Bid Left seat 777. 93 hours with 12 days off and good or decent layovers. Although I do work Christmas. Granted the rostering is getting worse at EK but perhaps you guys should spend less time on PPrune and more time learning how to bid.

[fliion]

Wow - with the above post...

we knew the goal posts had moved...but

...how quickly some have followed.

We now have people who think 93 hours! and working Xmas is proof of deft Jepp work after just their 2nd try!

Jesus wept

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

2nd top Habibis

OK, so I went and saw the Pilotbidhelpdudes, after this months sh1te. My priority was days off over Xmas.

What I got.

6 days off over Xmas, followed by a ULR... Better than nowt eh.
Got 2 x MCO, only wanted 1. Feast or famine eh!
1 other layover that is OK, not bid for.
3 crap turnarounds, and an ABV that came outta nowhere!

89.5 hours and 11 days off.

Gonna write in again, like all you moaning on here should do. If you don't, then nothing will change.

SyB :zzz:

[Speedbrake]

The new roster system is working great- for the company.

I hope no-one actually thought they implemented the new bid system to improve pilots lifestyle....! :=

The planes keep coming & the pilots keep leaving / not joining.

Do the maths, it's not going to get any better any time soon.

[Praise Jebus]

The new bid system is about managing expectations, eventually getting one trip you asked for will be considered success. A bit like boiling a frog.... Motojet is there already.....

[motojet]

Hardly Praise Jebus. I am not happy with 90 something hours. Nor am I happy with the new bid system. Only having 5 choices is ridiculous. Limits on days off in a row or max days off in a month is asinine.

But when guys in the same bid group as myself or higher get 100 hours, a month of turns or all night flights perhaps they should take a look at their bid strategies.

[dashman20]

777 rhs,bottom group.
97.5 hrs
8 trips incl 4 layovers
10 days off,6 rest days
Xmas and NY eve off!
Have I won the lottery?

[sluggums]

No, it's just a case of the galactic levels of incompetence working in your favour this time...:ok:

[The Turtle]

Received my top request, days off after leave, only to be followed by a ULR!

So practically worthless as far as vacation extension.

7 days leave, plus handling sim, and 82 hours flying.

Working Xmas and nye. How lovely.

[Monarch Man]

Turtle, there are ways and means to manipulate the rules in your favour. Without quoting chapter and verse, look at the rostering rules. (You probably already know this, and it's why I always bid for a ULR after leave)

[Juan Heych]

Turtle, there are ways and means to manipulate the rules in your favour. Without quoting chapter and verse, look at the rostering rules. (You probably already know this, and it's why I always bid for a ULR after leave)

But don't you have to come back to DXB on those off days before the ULR in order to be acclimatized?

[donpizmeov]

No you don't. It's all explained in the rules.

[linedriva]

I'm on reserve - this might hurt a bit!

[lospilotos]

No you don't. It's all explained in the rules.

Well it depends on how many days off Turtle got after leave. One absolutely needs 3 local nights in Dubai to be acclimatised before ULR. (OM-A 7.C.3.c)

This of course assuming that leave is spend outside 2 time zones away from DXB.

Yes there are ways of "interpreting" the rules in a different way, but in the end of the day, when you are in the office for T&B, its their interpretation that matters... Just be careful...

[Dropp the Pilot]

Going on leave does not alter acclimatisation. You can go to Seattle for a month and if you left Dubai acclimatised you return acclimatised.

To have any effect you must end a duty outside the band.

You may be tired, you may be jet-lagged but by the letter of the law you are acclimatised.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Drop- I think you are wrong in your interpretation.

If you go to Seattle on leave, and come back after 2 weeks. You cannot do a ULR to Sydney (unless you spent three nights in Dubai before the duty).

If you went to Seattle then enroute to home stayed in Cyprus say, for a few days then came to Dubai, you could then do a Sydney.

The company has given warnings to guys who have gone to London on days off, then come back to Dubai 12 hours before doing a ULR duty.

[Monarch Man]

Mods, sorry for the thread drift, but this needs correcting.

Rex, either your mates are telling porkies, or the company has got it wrong, either way go and look at the definition of acclimatised in the FTL's. Refer yourself to the second sentence with respect to being acclimatised BEFORE going on leave.
I do it all the time, in fact recently I spent 3 weeks in the US with the family and landed back in DXB 14 hrs before operating a ULR.
All perfectly legal and within the scope of the FTL's.

[fo4ever]

Great roster in December!

One JFK one NRT, 4 Office days, 9 days off and leave between x-mas and New Year.

Works great for me.

Oh sorry I forgot - left EK long time ago :-)

Living the dream away from the insanity og EK.

Cheers

[BigGeordie]

Monarch Man, I personally know one person who returned from Europe in the Winter (3 hours different from Dubai) 20 hours before a ULR flight, was pulled off the flight and dragged into the office for tea and biccies. I agree with your interpretation of the rules but the company sees it differently. If you have been doing it that way it just means you haven't been caught yet. When and if you are it is unlikely to be pleasant for you.

[Monarch Man]

BigG, I don't wish to labour the point, but if said person returned from the EU having spent a night or 2 there during the winter, if they left acclimatised then they only have themselves to blame. The argument is often made regarding interpretation vs reality, or more to the point how the ULR variation is applied, so what? definitions are in black and white, I've made the point numerous times to the FDM, fleet and the CP and they have all agreed, so to say I'm due tea and biscuits misses the point, the GCAA approves the variation provided the company complies with the scheme. I'll take my chances TYVM.

[Outatowner]

You aren't dragged into the office for being unacclimatised in the above scenario, you're dragged in because they are nasty, bullying c***s and want to stamp out any dissent or resistance.

They know their own definitions and they know the point that's being made and they don't like it because they're trying to do something and appear legitimate and pilots undermine the effort by applying their own rules in black and white. Of course they ignore the need to be acclimatised before the ULR return sector, because it's a "trip" not a flight.

The whole "acclimatised" concept is naff considering this airline flies around the world and around the clock. Three nights to become acclimatised is BS when you've just done a ULR (or two) or a night turnaround followed by day trip.

I wish those confused here would learn the FTLs because knowing the rules occasionally allows you to beat "them" at their game.

[Buckshot]

So not having 3 local nights in DXB before a trip is unsafe but

2 ULRs, 1 turn, 5 EU flights all night flights

in a month is okay? Right, got it.

[kcar]

2 ULRs, 1 turn, 5 EU flights all night flights

Hm..something's not right.

Shortest ULR block is 27h+, shortest EU 12h+ and shortest T/A 2h+
That's at least 116h, doesn't make sense.

[ekpilot]

Maybe you're Not smart enough to figure IT Out. Since you have so Much Time pull Out the 3000+ rosters and find mine 😉


QUOTE=kcar;9191167]Hm..something's not right.

Shortest ULR block is 27h+, shortest EU 12h+ and shortest T/A 2h+
That's at least 116h, doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

[Schnowzer]

Errrrr leave on the 31st on ULR👍

[Flaite]

mid group: 101 hours, 9 days off, 7 turns. I fly for xmas and will enjoy the fireworks from BUBIN . Only one flight that I bid for. :bored:

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Monarch-
Acclimatised
When a crew member has spent 3 consecutive local nights on the ground within a time zone which is 2 hours wide, and is able to take uninterrupted nights sleep.

The crew member will remain acclimatised thereafter until a duty period finishes at a place where local time differs by more than 2 hours from that at the point of departure.

If you were doing a ULR out of Seattle (after having spent 2 weeks there) - You would be acclimatised for a ULR duty ex Seattle.

If you have been on leave in Seattle for two weeks then come back to Dubai the night before your ULR ex Dubai, you are not Acclimatised in Dubai.

The second sentence in the definition refers to where you leave Dubai - Acclimatised then go to say- Incheon, then after blocks on at Incheon - you are now no longer not acclimatised.

I'm afraid to say that you have been illegal operating a ULR after leave within 12 hours of getting back to Dubai.

[kcar]

Maybe you're Not smart enough to figure IT Out. Since you have so Much Time pull Out the 3000+ rosters and find mine
Or maybe you don't know the definition of ULR.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Wrong.

Take some medical leave and go to Los Angeles for 3 months. When you come back to Dubai you are acclimatised.

You are tired. You are jet-lagged. But legally you are acclimatised because you never finished a duty outside the time band.

Operate to London. Do min rest. Return to Dubai only 18 hours after you left it. You are not acclimatised.

[Outatowner]

you are now no longer not acclimatised.
WTF?


Rex check what Dropp said. If you are acclimatised when you leave on your two week Seattle vacation, you'll be acclimatised when you get back because you didn't end a duty elsewhere. It's not necessarily sensible but why shouldn't we take advantage of it?
But that would mean being a responsible adult and planning your own sleep patterns to fit into your ULR upon return.
We can't have anyone thinking like an independent adult with all the control freaks running this circus.

[SOPS]

Ok, can I just add a comment here, I know what it says in the OMA, but it is interpreted differently by the company, at least in my experience.

I was doing a SFO, the other rostered captain had come back from Australia from leave, had arrived in Dubai 18 hours prior to the flight.

During the pre flight briefing, the FDM called to say he had been removed from the flight as he was not acclimatised.

A reserve captain was sent.

What I never understood ( but I knew the reason) , is why you don't need to be acclimatised at the the other end of a ULR before you start the trip home.

Anyway, I know what the rules are, but I think it is who is interpreting that matters.

[Monarch Man]

"Sigh"

SOPs, was he acclimatised to DXB before he left on leave?

Rex, what Dropp said is correct. In simple terms, if I do 3 DOH day turns 3 days in a row I am now acclimatised to DXB, if I now go on leave for 2 years before returning to work I am still acclimatised to DXB as
"The crew member will remain acclimatised thereafter until a duty period finishes at a place where local time differs by more than 2 hours from that at the point of departure"
All due to the fact I have not completed a duty period.....QED.

[SOPS]

Sigh...Monarch I agree with you... It just that others that are your chiefs don't. That's the point I was trying to make.

[Juan Heych]

Sigh...Monarch I agree with you... It just that others that are your chiefs don't. That's the point I was trying to make.
"But I was legal to operate the flight, sir. A chap on pprune said so!"

[Capn Rex Havoc]

"Sigh" "Sigh"



Drop and Monarch- You have to take the first sentence into account. Plus - come on now, the SOP was written to cover operating out of Dubai, not for the on leave situation.

I know of guys, (personal friends of mine) who spent 5 days in London, came back to Dubai, operated an ULR 12 hours later and got in the sh!t for it from the company.

Please feel free to continue on your interpretation of it, I care naught, but I know I shall come back from leave at least 3 days before a ULR.
I was rostered once, ages ago, for a ULR after my leave. I rang the FDM and told him I was not going to be acclimatised and they changed the duty. This further reinforces my interpretation of the OMA is correct over your version.

Best of the seasons greeting to all.:ok:

[harry the cod]

Isn't this why the Company will assume you to be unacclimatised for ULR roster planning purposes up to 3 days after leave? You might have to travel back on your last day of leave but not anymore than that as the roster system should compensate by giving 2 days off plus the one after leave. If it doesn't, you'd have the right to get the duty removed or delayed as Rex did. Using your leave to begin the 'acclimatisation process' would violate the purpose and definition of leave. The Aussie Captain that was mentioned in an earlier example being removed probably used some of those extra days off to extend his leave.

I'm on the fence with this one. Dropp et all I agree with. That is how the rules are written and they're there to protect us from poor Company rostering. However, the Company are using this as a requirement for us to follow, something for which the rule was NOT intended.

Like the 60 minutes report, it's something you'll either decide to fight or accept. I would fight my corner after leave but after 5 days off in London.......? Probably not to be honest.

Harry

[Monarch Man]

Rex, then we will agree to disagree, the definition defines what acclimatised is (taking the first sentence into account), nowhere does it say where, define where or indeed describe the locality, it merely states what it states. The second sentence explains how to become unacclimatised, again i.e. Finish a duty period outside a 2 HR time band.
It's not ambiguous, it's very clear.
Harry has it for once, the company assumes that after leave based on its OWN definition you will be unacclimatised , the fact of your acclimatised state or otherwise is defined specifically by the first sentence...and confirmed if you comply within the bounds of the second sentence. So if I fly off on leave to the UK in the summer, but return from Nice after 3 weeks, am I acclimatised or not? What say I spend 3 days in the UK then a night in France travelling and only have a night and a half in Dubai ? Or the other way around?
The answer is that's it's not workable to reasonably figure it out, and it's why the definition includes the words "duty period"

[Pilot_Recruit]

So you guys think that when it comes down to it the Habibi's in the office are going to side with you over semantics? Doesn't matter if your interpretation is legally correct, it's their interpretation. They clearly dislike us pilots immensely by every thread that's currently on this page, so why would they agree with you in a loss of face situation?

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Monarch, fair enough let's agree to disagree.

I leave you with this last thought-

Forget about ULR

Say you are on the 330 fleet and spend a month in Dubai. I would agree you are acclimatised.

Then you go to KL, Then, for the purposes of duty limits, you are not acclimatised for the way back.

Vica Versa, say I spent a month on leave in Aus. Fly back to Dubai, get back to Dubai for the non Ulr KL trip 12 hours before. When I calculate my Maximum FDP (SECTION 7.6.2) for the day- do I use the Two or more crew - Acclimatised table(7.6.2.1)? or the unacclimatised table?(7.6.2.2).

I would use the unacclimatised table, but clearly you would use the acclimatised one.

[Monarch Man]

Rex all correct except the last example. Did you leave DXB acclimatised heading off on leave or not? By definition if your last duty period ended in DXB and you were acclimatised at that time, you will remain such until the end of your next FDP duty outside a band that is 2hrs removed from DXB. So you should use the acclimatised FDP limit.

[avrodamo]

It's really clear. Your interpretation of the definition of 'acclimatised' is totally correct. DXB is never mentioned. However in the ULR section it clearly states you must be acclimatised to DXB, and need 3 local nights.

[Xiamen]

I have a problem with the hour you guys fly. You end the year with 100 hours in December. You fly 95 hours i a regular month. You fly 70-80 hours in a leave month, IF you get your leave.
How many hours are you allowed to fly a year? :confused:
If the numbers are correct, most of you should have at least December off.

[Monarch Man]

I can't believe I'm still at this but...

Avrodamo, you are wrong, it clearly states

"Prior to operating a ULR flight departing Dubai, all crew members shall be acclimatised"

It does not say you must be acclimatised to DXB, and that's the key part of the wording, it's deliberate as its written to give flexibility and clarity for this statement.
"For the day of actual operation a crew member who remains acclimatised during leave is not restricted by c. above"
Which coming full circle means you have to understand what it means to be acclimatised or not, and thus refer to the definition.
Clear as day now?

[avrodamo]

MM
Reading I think I can see where confusion is coming in. It's the prior to leave section in the statement. You could be right, but like others I know people who have had warnings. Has wording changed??

[AlanPardew]

You guys are all on the other thread moaning about not having enough days off on your rosters, then on those rare occasions you do have spare time you're arguing about a paragraph in the OM-A on a forum

[Monarch Man]

But Alan, the Wifi signal is super strong here in the cockpit :} plus they just pushed our EAT back by another 15 mins.

[AlanPardew]

I just realised it's not even a different forum, it's this same one :D

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Alan Pardew
WTF happened against Sunderland. Better not be repeated against the Geordies on Saturday or else I'll get really angry.
It's an interesting point that has been discussed. The point that you immediately un-acclimatise upon departure from DXB on TZ 3hrs wide is complete rubbish. Science says a 1 hour shift per day. On a lot of flights EK operates on min rest turns you cannot hand on heart say you acclimatise to local time.
At my gaff we have a 2 crew Europe to USA variation working EU-US at Night and US-Europe day time. Crews don't acclimatise until they have 50 hours rest in USA (so that counts most of EK slips out me thinks)so they stay on EU TZ and enjoy a very advantageous FDP on the return day time / un-factored
This is UK AOC, approved FRMS, and the acclimatisation regs mirror EU Sub Part Q and soon to be EASA FTL (which is very complicated, wonder if GCAA will follow)
This is much more realistic than CAP371.
And on these particular rotations the dreaded 18-30hr rest periods are scientifically proven to be the bees knees.
Spooky innit
:\Up the Palace

[Aircav]

Guys you are wrong.

Forget the OMA for the moment, it is written with you being on duty in mind.

Acclimatisation definitions come from Medical research which states that if you spend 3 local nights in a time zone greater than 2 hours away from where you were originally acclimatised then you are now acclimatised to that time zone. End Of.

So irrespective of whether on duty or leave if you have been away from DXB in said time zones for 3 local nights you are not acclimatised to DXB.

Do you think the company gives you 3 days off after leave before a ULR out of the goodness of their hearts??

[CaptainChipotle]

You guys arguing about who's OM-A is bigger for two pages is one of the reasons we find ourselves so low in managements eye.

As mentioned earlier, the manual is up to interpretation. If you've made it far enough to get through a month or so online, then you KNOW which way management will interpret it. End of story. You want to fight it, go ahead. Good luck.

I'm sick of flying long haul patterns with Low Cost rosters. ...since this thread is about xmas rosters: B777 LHS, 100hrs, 8 days off. Definitely not going to be able to make it all the way through Dec Roster.

Much apologies to the guys on Reserve.

Since the OM-A has been referenced so many times on this thread, I'll refer you nerds to the reference where its my duty to remove myself when I'm unfit. hows that? I won't mention whose duty it is to give me an adequate roster so that I can achieve rest enough to fulfill my safety sensitive job effectively and efficiently.

[SOPS]

How the hell is a 100 hours long haul with 8 days off considered safe? Or humanely possible? Things seem to have got really out of control.

[Trader]

The OMA Ch 7 has changed a number of times - tweaked, here an there. I would have to agree with MM, it is clearly defined. The only issue is whether you want to fight over it or not.

One interesting change that not many seem to have noticed is the that to be acclimatized you now need an uninterrupted nights sleep. Previously you could fly a night turn, return to Dubai and still be acclimatized! So you could be sent off on a ULR later based on being acclimatized.

Now you require the nights sleep. Rostering response has been to roster a ULR followed by 2 days off (used to be 3) then roster a NIGHT turn, since you are unacclimatized and have a LONGER duty day!!! Makes no sense biologically but it's 'legal' Take a look at the 777 rosters and 90% are rostered with that night turn after a ULR.

There is no concern for what is healthy or safe.

[Kamelchaser]

You are absolutely crazy to accept a night turn on the third night after a ULR. You are finally settling into a night sleeping pattern after your body has been completely screwed by a 10-12 hour time zone change; ready to fall asleep at 9 or 10pm, and they send you off for a 12 hour night duty to India and back.

This has to be the most dangerous rostering pattern this company pushes.

On a number of occasions I've simply refused that duty due to fatigue. I will not put myself at risk of an accident by doing that sort of shyte. And many more people should refuse it too.

[LHR Rain]

As short as EK is of pilots every pilot should call in sick at least once a month.
What other options do we have? The company doesn't listen to us or even care about us but my health is not worth their conditions anymore.

[Monarch Man]

Exactly LHR rain, couldn't have put it better myself. I don't advocate calling sick as a tool, but make sure you protect yourself first and foremost as the company has no interest in your well-being at all.

[Plank Cap]

Much enjoyed all the banter about OM(A) and acclimatisation, but the bit in the definitions, first sentence, never seems to get sufficient attention, i.e. ".... and is able to take uninterrupted nights sleep...."

Well folks, can I just say on that basis the FDM, Crewing or whoever is offering the tea and bikkies will never know just how uninterrupted or otherwise your night's sleep was. Indeed on that basis, personally having last had an uninterrupted night's sleep circa January 2007, I shall never ever ever ever be acclimatised by definition whilst working for this bunch of monkeys...!! Put that in your shisha and smoke it.........!

[Outatowner]

Good point - noisy AC, local hoons on Beach Rd, morning C.T.P, midnight madness for one month every year, jet lag, etc....

[donpizmeov]

Sounds like my 2007 roster. It's not nice.