The Cameron Jet

[N707ZS]

Dave dares to tread where Tony wouldn't go.


David Cameron to get own plane for official trips - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34864328)

[RVF750]

It's most likely just a VIP partial cabin interior for one of Air Tanker's fleet with a supplimentary Cert for some extra ECM pods on the back.

Not exactly extravagence....

[G-CPTN]

Dave dares to tread where Tony wouldn't go.
It was the one-eyed Scotsman that knocked BlairForce One on the head.

Jealousy?

[Andy_S]

It's most likely just a VIP partial cabin interior for one of Air Tanker's fleet with a supplimentary Cert for some extra ECM pods on the back.

Not exactly extravagence....

That's how I see it. The trouble with Blair is that he wanted a brand new widebody jet - probably a 777. Dave Force One is a modification of an existing aircraft at a fraction of the cost. Of course, various regulars on Jet Blast (which is where I suspect this is going to be moved PDQ) won't see it like that.

[rottenray]

...the whole thread so far...


Well, maybe if you gave your leaders some real aircraft "perks", you'd get better leaders.

Uh, oh, well... Hat, coat, adios!

[Ancient-Mariner]

For Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, one of these for each would have been ideal.


Kamikaze aircraft to go on display for first time - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/10627029/Kamikaze-aircraft-to-go-on-display-for-first-time.html)


(I believe that Tony Blair wanted an A340 for his Blairforce One)


Clive

[Iron Duck]

The Telegraph article says: 'The aircraft... was one of just four brought back to Britain from the Far East to display in museums. It is not known what ever happened to the other three...'

I'm sure I remember seeing one dangling from the ceiling in the Science Museum. Perhaps a bit too unsettling (or genuinely educational) for modern sensibilities and removed, along with that whole floor devoted to the Port of London in the '60's...

Er, sorry for the thread drift. I see no reason why the UK shouldn't have a Head of State aircraft, especially if using the Voyager really does save money over leasing.

[Mr Oleo Strut]

Camforce One
The opaque nature of government expenditure, made worse by generous dollops of smoke and mirrors, make it near-impossible to determine if the £10m to be invested in this project represents good use of tax-payers money. I remember that the old Royal Yacht was slipped into the defence budget dressed up as a hospital ship, yet when it was needed in the Falklands was found not to be suitable, so I hope that Cameron's Chariot is not going to be similarly dealt with. I read that the consortium known as Airtankers are paid undisclosed sums to provide and operate the RAFs fleet of passenger/freight/tanker aircraft, all based on the Airbus A330, so I'm assuming that a few first-class seats, some dividing curtains and extra comms gear will suffice, but we'll see.

[ion_berkley]

The Telegraph article says: 'The aircraft... was one of just four brought back to Britain from the Far East to display in museums. It is not known what ever happened to the other three...'

I'm sure I remember seeing one dangling from the ceiling in the Science Museum. Perhaps a bit too unsettling (or genuinely educational) for modern sensibilities and removed, along with that whole floor devoted to the Port of London in the '60's...

Solid research from the Torygraph I see. Well as of 2 days ago there was one sat in the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kamikaze-ManchesterMSI.jpg


And BBC *really*? 2000 quid an hour for an A330?? Did someone drop a zero?

[G-CPTN]

The nation's tank transporters are operated by a civilian company (http://www.ftxlog.com/about-us/).

[Iron Duck]

And BBC *really*? 2000 quid an hour for an A330?? Did someone drop a zero?

Perhaps, to cut costs, it's assumed that the typical State trip can be combined with a refuelling sortie, with the grandes legumes going round in circles for a few hours. After all, going round in circles seems to be SOP for those types...

[Top West 50]

I expect it will make decent business sense, particularly for the shareholders of AirTanker. Remember that there is an obscene element of surplus capacity in the 14 aircraft PFI fleet and, since it is paid for , used or not, they may as well find something to do with them. Others will know better but £10m sounds about right for a VIP conversion?

[enola-gay]

G_CGTN


I think you are confusing heavy lift a/c with the A330 Voyager operated by Air Tanker Limited as a military troop transport / IFR a/c for the RAF and other EU air forces.


The interior of the Voyager is quite comfortable and better than BA world traveller class. If you turn left at the front door, there is a segregated cabin of six rows with its own toilet, where normally Senior Officers, flight engineers, resting crew and any paying pax are seated (such as on the runs to Ascension Island and Falklands).


I am sure that front cabin could be reconfigured as VIP on one of the Voyagers and any lucky commissioned Army officer would be more than pleased to use Dave's seat if it was empty.

[vctenderness]

I don't see the problem. If Dave or god forbid Corby, has to travel by air we, the tax payer, have to pay.

I'm sure the normal route of chartering a BA 777 is not cheap so why not provide a multi purpose alternative?

I would presume it would provide Royal cover as well.

[underfire]

Look at how much Obamas new aircraft costs, all so they can get to HI for vacation..not to mention the 3 identical to confuse where he is at....

Seems like the UK is getting away pretty cheap.

[G-CPTN]

The nation's tank transporters are operated by a civilian company (http://www.ftxlog.com/about-us/).

I think you are confusing heavy lift a/c with the A330 Voyager operated by Air Tanker Limited as a military troop transport / IFR a/c for the RAF and other EU air forces.
No, I was referring to land transportation of battle tanks by road vehicles - now done by Army reservists under the control of a civilian contractor:-

British Army heavy equipment transporter contract (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/oshkosh/)

The (civilian) drivers are required to enlist as Army reservists (TA).

Recent service in the Armed Forces will be an advantage (http://www.ftxlog.com/recruitment/)

[oldoberon]

This conversion will be similar but not so big as was the vc10 to royal flights, just a vip fit, it is a "simple" role change one lot of kit out another one in.

However I doubt if it will involve the engineering prep for a royal flight (long distance tour) where major components over half life were changed ie engines etc and a fully fitted reserve aircraft followed it once it was 1/2way to next stop, and a herc ahead with all the baggage.

Seems a much cheaper option than chartering to me, re crews surely they are not supplied by airtankers company.

[G-CPTN]

AirTanker supplies Voyager and everything needed to support aircraft operation to the RAF to deliver a new strategic and tactical air transport and air-to-air refuelling capability to UK Armed Forces around the globe.
Although the RAF retains full operational control of aircraft, tasking and operational planning is delivered by AirTanker in support of RAF operations through its team of RAF embedded and civilian personnel.
This covers a full spectrum of responsibilities from fleet planning to control, clearance and the planning of individual sorties, directed from our state-of-the art Flight Operations control centre at the AirTanker Hub, RAF Brize Norton.
Probably not flight crew though.

http://www.airtanker.co.uk/about/what-we-do

However:-
The RAF Voyager service is underpinned by a multitude of roles performed by AirTanker’s civilian team.
This includes not only engineering, flight crew and flight operations teams but compliance, commercial, finance and other administrative support functions.

[enola-gay]

Probably not flight crew though.
===============


G-CPTN, Yes you are right, the Air Tanker flight crew are not military. They are a bit risk averse - like flying 4 hours in still air with seat belt light on and toilet doors locked, but trolley cart out every half hour with flagons of drinks to keep troops hydrated. (Elfin Safety!)


A Major seated in 1a said " for f***s sake, stop serving drinks to my men or unlock the bog door"

[N707ZS]

Tony did have his own personal BA 777 with extra kit fitted for when he wanted to use it. Think it was the one that recently caught fire.

[RF4]

It will be quite interesting to see what if any changes will be made for flight crew security clearance, and also for cabin crew. Dave will want to have some cabin crew I'm sure.

Really I can't blame Dave. After all how can he resist having an A330 with "DAVE ONE" painted on the nose beside a graphic of a hand with the index finger raised. ....or should it read "DAVE # ONE"

[LTNman]

I can't see what the problem is with some folk in this country. If as a nation we can afford our staggering foreign aid budget then this is just small pocket change.

[rog747]

Virgin have just retired some A340-300's and 747-400's (with more to come)

surely a cheaper option to obtain and maintain one of those?


also will HM and HRH PofW have use of camforceone?

[RealUlli]

Guys, as a German, I don't really see what's this fuss all about.

Compared to the rest of the budget, buying and outfitting a jet for representative duties is not that expensive. German Air Force operates a whole fleet of jets for carrying around politicians (currently an A340 for Mrs. Merkel and a bunch of smaller ones for ministers), however, they're not (AFAIK) reserved for their personal use. Every couple of years, a politician gets into trouble because he overdid it... e.g. going on vacation on a "official" jet is a no-no.

This has been going on for decades, starting in 1957... no English page on Wikipedia, though. (German page: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugbereitschaft_des_Bundesministeriums_der_Verteidigung )

[ShotOne]

"A bit risk averse.." Odd complaint in the context of the en-route air display routine of the RAF-crewed Voyager.

Seems to be an assumption the alternative is a BA777; unfortunately not always. PM has shown up round the world in machines chartered from various rag-tag second and third-world locations. On one shameful occasion supposedly promoting UK trade by flying an Angolan jet!! Crew security clearance? You're having a laugh, RF4. Aside from the glaring security issue, this just made us look like a fourth rate country.

This is a sensible deal. Aside from anything else, we're already paying for it. If the balloon goes up its available to tank with the rest of the fleet: Rog747, your ex VS option involves buying/leasing another aircraft onto the inventory plus crew-training, maintenance, spares etc; hugely more expensive

[chaps1954]

Is it really a problem as the aircraft has a secondry role as tanker which
is what it is all about and can also carry troops ie: multi role

Ian

[Slow and curious]

Early 1980's, as pax on a scheduled flight from Jakarta (Halim) to Singapore, I was asked to check-in 3 hrs prior to actual departure. No reason was given.
At the check-in I was told, that boarding would be 1 hour before actual departure. Again, no reason was given. There were only about a dozen pax boarding the SQ727. There were about as many tall, male 'cabin crew'.
Minutes before sheduled departure, there was a red carpet rolled out, and, to the tunes of a marching band, on walked Lee Kuan Yew, then Prime Minister of Singapore, who just happened to be on a state visit.

[Waterworld]

"Tony", and all other PMs, got the most suitable BA aircraft available, appropriate for the mission. Anything from an A319 to a B747. There was no dedicated aircraft.

[ExDubai]

Virgin have just retired some A340-300's and 747-400's (with more to come)
That would be the "german way". We bought a LH A340 and LH Technik did the conversion.

[Old Fella]

Many of the comments on this thread take me back to 1979 when the RAAF acquired the last two Qantas B707-338's. As a Flight Engineer on the aircraft I, and the rest of the crew, often had to fend off criticism by ill-informed members of the public. They were critical of PM Malcolm Fraser and "his VIP jets". Not only the public, but the Opposition Leader of the era, Mr Bob Hawke, declared he "would sell the B707's". Not only did Mr Hawke not sell the two ex Qantas B707's, his government acquired another five. Eventually four of the fleet were converted to aerial refuellers, but retained their pax/cargo capability.

The reality was that a very small percentage of our tasking was for "VIP" operations, as a look through my log book would clearly show. The aircraft which replaced the B707's are A330's which are multi-role capable and would, if required I am sure, be used to transport VIP's.

As in Australia, the ill-informed in Britian will bleat about any expenditure which they perceive to be "political perks". Look at the big picture folks, your Executive Government Ministers deserve to be transported in safety by your RAF, whenever required.

[fatboy slim]

rog747 - how do you make your sums add up there? The Voyager fleet is already bought and paid for.

[renfrew]

I thought they were on some sort of PFI deal and the RAF don't actually own them.

[Tay Cough]

Tony did have his own personal BA 777 with extra kit fitted for when he wanted to use it. Think it was the one that recently caught fire.

No he didn't and no it wasn't.

HMG chartered a standard 777 from BA when required, if BA had the capacity to spare one.

[G-CPTN]

I thought they were on some sort of PFI deal and the RAF don't actually own them.
Indeed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirTanker_Services) . . .

On 27 March 2008 the UK Ministry of Defence signed a deal to lease 14 aircraft under a private finance initiative arrangement from EADS-led consortium AirTanker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirTanker_Services)

[obwan]

As we have often been told "we're all in it together" does this mean that I can use the plane when His Daveship aint using it?:ugh:

[gcal]

I'm a little confused which is pretty much a permanent state of affairs :)
Are these aircraft, all the A330s, operated (by which I mean crewed) by civilians.
There are no RAF pilots and cabin crew?
Notwithstanding this I see no reason why the head of state elected and otherwise should not have a decent aircraft for their official use.

[clareprop]

I would have thought this aircraft should be seen as 'UK-One' and not personalised in the media with the names of transient politicians.

[rog747]

re buying ex surplus virgin a/c or an ex BA one - i would have thought that was a cheap option TBH - plenty of 340 and 747 mx companies out there -

the RAF lease not own all the 330's and isn't one sub-leased to Thomas Cook airlines and it flies a summer program out of STN for them on long haul charters in an all Y config?

the RAF have cabin crew btw

[oldoberon]

what is the paint job? RAF roundels, grey bodied?

If leased to Thomas cook - change paint job?

[G-CPTN]

http://www.findmodelkit.com/sites/default/files/thomas_cook_airbus_a330.jpg



http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mNAy7m_pYfP_LW7r0_oBz5w.jpg

[fatboy slim]

9 a/c on the mil reg flown as tankers/air transport by RAF crews
5 a/c on the civ reg to be flown on charter work (one on a 4 year deal with TCX) flown by civ crews. These aircraft can be pressed into military service at short notice if required.

Unsure if it will be a mil or civ to be fitted with the enhance cabin for VVIP service.

[PersonFromPorlock]

Well, he could just stay home; nothing brings useful activity to a screeching halt like having the Big Boss and his retinue show up. This is a concept I have recommended to all politicians everywhere since, roughly, the invention of the telephone.

[pax britanica]

Actually this seems a pretty cheap deal for something thats not unreasonable when you look at the sort of dedicated modern aircraft that all kinds of aid recipient little countries use for their president. So i actually think it is reasonable.

Sadly looked at another way it underpins Britain's real relevance in the world compared with other countries, France and Germany have a bit more style on offer for the head of state and of course Obama and Vlad have a whole fleet at their disposal.

Is Mrs Windsor going to use the new plane as well? perhaps in a spirit of Euro unity she could fly LuftMerkel as a fellow national.

I wouldn't worry about Jeremy Corbyn using it , he looks like its a bike or an Oyster card to cover his travel needs , but then a lot of people respect that.

In fact as regards Dave One I am surprised the Mail or Torygraph havent yet characterised it as PM forced to fly on French jet

[G-CPTN]

Procuring a seat on a scheduled flight (though several would be needed for the retinue) or chartering a complete aircraft doesn't provide the degree of 'security' or 'communications' of the sort provided for the POTUS on AirForceOne.

Does Dave (or his successor(s)) need this?
I don't think that the Royals would, though security measures might be appropriate.

Doesn't AF1 have flares to distract missile attacks? That facility might be useful for the Royals (though Republicans might disagree).
I'm sure the C130 can be so equipped, and, no doubt, the A400M, so maybe Airbus can fit them to the A330?

Maybe the anticipated Strategic Defence and Security Revue (sic) will reveal the long-awaited replacement for the Nimrod?

The trouble with thinking as above, is that what started out as being a seat for Dave ends up as being an expensive and lengthy procurement programme for a whole new type of aircraft.

Look what happened with the Mark 3 Chinooks (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jun/04/military.defence) . . .

[ShotOne]

"Forced to fly French jet"..except most of it isn't, and quite a lot of it; wings, engines, landing gear, fuel sys is British

Agreed tho, it works out a cheap deal -mainly because apart from a few comfy chairs, we're already paying for it anyway

[obgraham]

Good heavens, ladies and gents: Regardless of whether you like or don't like the current leader, it seems reasonable to have a dedicated aircraft or two for use by the top government people. These days the reality of security requirements would seem to require that. Phoning up BA to see what they have hanging about seems a poor way to plan a trip.

Now, nobody says you need to be as over the top as we here in US are when it comes to AF1.

[vctenderness]

No Fly Zone:

If Sir David wants an airplane for his own use and that of his senior assistants

You have knighted our 'Dear Leader'. Afraid that won't happen until he stands down and rejects a Peerage.

[Mr Oleo Strut]

HOG - very good identifier indeed, especially as regards the present PM, and the choice of aircraft is fine. I visualise a big fat jolly A330 done up in Imperial colours with Dave and Sam tripping down the airstairs in cocked hats, boots and spurs to the tune of "Britannia rules the (air) waves" while HMQ is fork-lifted down in the Royal Howdah, done up in her pearly queen outfit. Bell-ringers, whistlers and trumpeteers would take up the steerage seats while assorted Lords, Ladies and bag-carriers would hang around the front end. Not sure where the Royal rickshaw and the pit-ponies would go, or the official Rolls. Perhaps a small fleet of these planes need to be procured to accommodate same. Now should JC ever achieve HOG status, what method or mode of aerial transport would Hon. Ppruners consider appropriate for this man of the people?

[Iron Duck]

Now should JC ever achieve HOG status, what method or mode of aerial transport would Hon. Ppruners consider appropriate for this man of the people?

A Vickers Vimy. He might be persuaded to try to fix the engine enroute. Whoops, bit of turbulence there...

[Prober]

How about a magic carpet (from a street market somewhere in Iran)?:ooh::eek:

[Basil]

Sounds OK to me. Working environment, encrypted satcom, internet, able to move around aides without airline pax looking and listening, change of destination or RTB if required AND no booze in the office until THE MAN says; that would put off all but the most hardened journo :ok: