Cirrus rental?

[Pace]

Hi I have just renewed my SEP and am seriously looking at renting some time on a Cirrus? I have one option on an SR20 at £160 an hour dry? 7 hours conversion are there better deals around?

i would prefer an SR20 to a 22

Pace

[007helicopter]

£90 per hour dry advertised @ North Weald.

John is good guy and has done some of my recurrent training

Aircraft || (http://www.jmflying.com/index.php/aircraft)

Just spotted requires a monthly fee so probably not what you are looking for, worth giving John a call as he should be what else available at NW.

The only other I know of in the SE is TAA at Denham who certainly had SR20's.

[flybymike]

Does it really need seven hours training to learn to fly "another SEP"?
Especially a fixed gear normally aspirated 0360 model.....

[MrAverage]

flybymike

Some places insist on a minimum 10 hours. It's often insurance led. The glass, if the pilot has not used it before, does take a lot of getting used to.....

[India Four Two]

The glass, if the pilot has not used it before, does take a lot of getting used to.....

I agree. I've had one flight in an SR22. Very easy and nice to fly and I'm sure I would be comfortable from a handling point of view in an hour or so.

Learning to use the electronics is a completely different matter. I was told 10-20 hours by my instructor. Luckily, there are simulators available for PCs which can help with the learning curve.

Pace,

Out of interest, why specifically the SR20?

[stevelup]

Does it really need seven hours training to learn to fly "another SEP"?

It depends how prepared you are. There are things you are going to want to know - for example about the electrical system - that cannot possibly be squeezed into one hour. But it's nothing you can't teach yourself by sitting down with the POH and making a few notes.

In terms of flying them, it's a numbers game. Get the numbers right and everything just works out.

Learning the glass - well that just depends on your aptitude with buttonology. A geeky IT person will have no problem at all with it (and 10-20 hours would be way OTT), but others may struggle. That stuff is better done at home using the readily available simulators anyway.

[Pace]

Pace,

Out of interest, why specifically the SR20?

They are both normally aspirated unless you get a T so for me the T is the true IFR machine and that means oxygen, the ability to climb to high FLs and ice capability.

I have made short flights in both normally aspirated models the SR20 and 22
Maybe its because the SR20 is lighter without such a heavy lump of engine in the front but I thought the handling was better balanced in the SR20? But that is from someone with little time on type.

Also fuel ? OK I suppose you can pull the SR22 back to SR20 cruise speeds and there won't be much difference but ??? What do others think with experience on both?

As for the training schedule ? It is way overkill. Yes I appreciate the glass needs to be learnt back to front but you don't do that flying around at £250 per hour?
That should be classroom and simulator, the aircraft to put the lot together when you know all the glass! Actually flying the aircraft is no big deal

http://www.flytheameliaproject.eu/partners-1/

This looks interesting? Its a 5% share on a new aircraft so you would have to add the depreciation on that share purchase cost into the hour rate as well as the monthly charge but looks interesting if you knock up some hours PA

Pace

[flybymike]

Share price and flying rates seem incredibly low for a brand new aircraft.
Looks like it will be a large group (which will impact on availability.)

Edit. Just noticed, 20 members!

[Pace]

yes but my flying would mostly be in the week ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Most large syndicates have a maximum of half a dozen people who do 90% of the flying. I've been in 15+ sized syndicates, and still seldom have had availability problems, so long as I don't want to fly at Saturday lunchtime.

G

[CSCOT]

Here's a thought.

E.g.
http://www.aircraft24.co.uk/singleprop/cirrus/sr22-g2-gts--xi123311.htm?fbacklink=sr22--xm10304--xp2.htm

10 Members: £15k each buy-in.

Total Revenue: £150k

A/C Cost: £125k

Surplus for Initial Costs: £25k

Monthly Contribution Fee (MCF): £149.00 Per Member paid by direct debit.

Total Annual Revenue from MCF: £17.9k

MCF used to cover MIHSF costs (Maintenance, Insurance, Hangarage, Surplus Fund)

Cost Charged Per Flight Hour: £0.00 (Dry)

Fuel Used Paid By Member Flying.

Mobile booking and maintenance management app.

Group Aim: Shared risk, shared costs, reduced-cost flying for members who have bought-in.

£0.00 per hour flying but with fixed monthly fee encourages flying - the more you fly the more notional ROI each member gets. Per hour charge is a barrier / discouragement.

Minimum experience and training level required for members for everyone's benefit. Individual members liable for cost of damage or insurance excess for anything that happens on their watch.

This may well be pretty pie in the sky. You need to remember that I am pretty new to the world of GA, and the associated costs and economics - not an ideal base from which to think about such things but everyone needs to starts somewhere. And it is only personal musings. Thoughts I can splurge out of my brain on a forum to either get shot down, or not.

It's worth saying however that I have put groups together in this and similar models for yachts and motor boats, which is my business.

No personal financial gain for me - just flying, when buy-in money is spent, it's mentally written off as a leisure spend so no expectation of future recoup.

Formula may be flawed in an aviation context because I simply do not have;

a). Experience with reality of actual costs;
b). Understanding of market concentration;
c). Contacts.

The particular example linked above is obviously closer to TBO but it's the method rather than specific aircraft I'm talking about. Find a different type or costed a/c and drop in your own figures.

Anyway like I say. Brain splurge, and I defer to the more experienced for comment...

[Maoraigh1]

Engine fund?? Annual fund?? Hours builders fighting over bookings, so you'ld need a limit per month. Some costs are hours dependant. I know of a large group with very high monthly, and very low hourly charge. They still have a problem with low usage - and only a few fly a lot.

[CSCOT]

Engine fund?? Annual fund?? Hours builders fighting over bookings, so you'ld need a limit per month. Some costs are hours dependant. I know of a large group with very high monthly, and very low hourly charge. They still have a problem with low usage - and only a few fly a lot.


Thanks - so Engine and Annual funds - in your experience what are the costs associated with these items? Thanks for the help

[stevelup]

You need to ask that question to someone who operates a Cirrus.

If you're serious about operating one, you won't go far wrong joining COPA - there's a wealth of information on there.

Don't forget about the chute repack costs. You need to put about £1500 PA to one side for that. The one you linked to doesn't mention if it's been done. It's a 2005 model, so it should have been, but if it hasn't, then there's the best part of £15k you'll have to outlay immediately.

The first repack on an airframe of that age is an expensive one because the mechanical chute operating system is upgraded to an electrically triggered system and the work entails fitting a new battery box and various other things.

[vector4fun]

Happened across this the other day, just browsing. Every time I start lusting for a 150 kt aircraft, I just have to look at lists like this to remind me that 100 kts is far better than driving, or debtor's prison.




Cirrus SR20 & SR22 Inspection & Time
Retired Parts Intervals

Don't Forget That The Cirrus SR Series of Aircraft have Numerous Parts
That Are Either Time Retired, or Have Specific Maintenance / Overhaul
Times That Are Required By The Manufacturer. The Following Are just a
Few Of The Items That Are Required For Continued Airworthiness:


1. Engine - Per Manufacturer. (Recommended 2000 Hours)
2. Propeller Governor - (SR22-Serials 0002 thru 0567 & SR20-1005 thru 1336
w/ Woodward governor) Per Manufacturer. (Recommended 2400 Hours)
3. Propeller Governor - (SR22 Serials 0568 & subs and SR20 Serials 1337 & subs
w/ McCauley governor) Per Manufacturer. (Recommended 1800 Hours or 5 years -
whichever comes first.)
4. Magnetos Per Manufacturer.(500 Hr. Maintenance / AD Compliance)
5. Propeller - (SR22 - Serials 0002 & subs and SR20 - All Serial Numbers
w/ Hartzell Propeller) Per Manufacturer. (Recommended 2400 Hours or
6 Years - whichever comes first.)
6. Propeller - (SR22 Serials 0687 & subs w/ optional McCauley propeller) Per Manufacturer.
(Recommended 2400 Hours or 6 Years - whichever comes first.)
7. De-Ice Propeller Boot - (SR22 - Serials 0002 & subs w/Hartzell Propeller)
Per Manufacturer. (Recommended 2400 Hours or 6 Years - whichever comes first.)
8. De-Ice Propeller Boot - (SR22 - Serials 0687 & subs w/optional McCauley propeller) Per
Manufacturer. (On condition.)
9. Alternator 1 Per Manufacturer. (500 Hr. Overhaul Per TCM)

10. Alternator 2 Per Manufacturer. (Recommended 1700 Hours)

11. Induction Air Filter. (At Annual Inspection or 200 Hours - whichever occurs first)
12. Battery #2 (Every 2 Years or 500 Hours)
13. Muffler and Heat Exchanger (Every1000 Hours)
14. Flexible Fuel Lines (Every 5 Years)
15. Fuel System Boost Pump (Every 10 Years)
16. Gascolator Seals (Every 5 Years)
17. Fuel System Drain Valve Seals (Every 5 Years)
18. Flexible Oil System Lines (Every 5 Years)
19. Flexible Brake System Lines (Every 5 Years)
20. Brake Assembly O-Rings (At Annual Inspection or 100 Hours - Whichever Occurs First)
21. Aileron-Rudder Interconnect Shock Cord (Every 5 Years)
22. Emergency Locator Transmitter Batteries. (Batteries Due at Expiration Date or After 1 Hour
Use - Whichever Occurs First)
23. Fire Extinguisher (20 Years or Loss of Pressure)
24. Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) Rocket Motor. (10 Years Replace With New Unit)
25. Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) Parachute. (10 Years Replace With New or
Repacked Unit)

26. Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) Reefing Line Cutters. (Every 6 Years Replace
With New Units)
27. TKS Ice Protection System Filter. (Every 2 Years or 1200 Hours)
28. Inflatable Restraint System Electronic Module Assembly. (7 Years Factory Overhaul,
14 Years Replace With New Unit)
29. Inflatable Restraint System Inflator Assembly. (7 Years Factory Overhaul,
14 Years Replace With New Unit)
30. Turn Coordinator Batteries. (SR20 - Replace Batteries at Annual Inspection or After
Emergency Use - Whichever Occurs First)
31. Engine-Driven Vacuum Pump. (SR20 - 1200 Flight Hours)
32. Dry Air Pump Coupling, Engine-Driven Vacuum Pump. (6 Years From Date of Manufacture)
33. Electric Vacuum Pump. (3000 Flight Hours or 10 Years - Whichever Occurs First)

34. Paper Instrument Air Filter Element. (Every 500 Flight Hours, Annually, or When Either
Vacuum Pump is Replaced - Whichever Occurs First)

35. Foam Vacuum Regulator Garter Filter Element. (Every 100 Flight Hours or Annually -
Whichever Occurs First)

36. Check Valve Manifold and Check Valves. (10 Years From Date of Manufacture)

[ChickenHouse]

There was a lengthy article on total costs averaged over 10 years of SR22 ownership, published in one of the german magazines this autumn. Resumé was something like real costs well above 400/hour at 100h/year and no engine O/H. I guess it is a reliable and real world figure to take 400-500/hour and not much less for a SR20.

[Jonzarno]

V4F

Not if its an N reg and not being used for commercial ops. Most if not all of these can be maintained on condition.

CH

My SR22 is nowhere near that. Last year was just over £190 p.h including fuel based on 260 hours including £1000 allowance for the 10 yearly CAPS repack which happened in the year and cost £10k.

That does not include depreciation although, as I've had the plane 8 years and bought it when the $US was just over 2 to the £, that hasn't been anything like as bad as buying a new one today would be.

I presume the German estimate is based on it being on D reg?

[Jonzarno]

They are both normally aspirated unless you get a T so for me the T is the true IFR machine and that means oxygen, the ability to climb to high FLs and ice capability.

It all depends on where you're going to fly.

A N/A SR22 is quite happy cruising at FL 170. Operating limit is 17,500 ft although I'm sure it will go higher. Typical performance there is about 165 KTAS at 12 GPH. At that level you can use an O2 system such as the Mountain High with cannulas. If you take a turbo higher than that to its operating maximum of FL 250 you need a full mask system.

Flying in Western Europe with an occasional flight over the Alps, I've found the N/A more than adequate. The turbo really comes into its own when you are forced to go very high such as when crossing the Rockies in the US.

Although as a renter it won't really concern you: the maintenance is more expensive and complex on the turbo as well.

The FIKI system is certainly useful; but I've only had to cancel one flight this year for weather, including icing. (today! :{)

All that said, I know that many turbo pilots will disagree with me and would always pick the turbo. The agony of choice :confused::)

[ChickenHouse]

The article states 415/h total for N-reg averaged over 10 years and 1000h (10/2015).

[Jonzarno]

Fair enough: but it doesn't reconcile with the specific costs of running my SR22 N/A over the last eight years that I have owned it.

I've just been back over the actual total operating cost records I have kept since 2007; and the cost per hour, not including depreciation, over 1645 hours, average out at £181.30 per hour over that period.

Perhaps I've just been lucky.

[stevelup]

That's one key factor - you've done double the hours.

Also, are we mixing currency up here? The German article said 415 (what) per hour? GBP, EUR, USD?

[Jonzarno]

Yes: fair comment. I hope it's a useful data point.