Unable to see and correct or even react to drift.....

[markkal]

Le raffiche di vento spostano l?aereo dalla pista, l?atterraggio è da brividi - Corriere TV (http://video.corriere.it/raffiche-vento-spostano-l-aereo-pista-l-atterraggio-brividi/db958ea8-8946-11e5-9216-e8e41772d34a)


Why dont pilots decrab anymore ?
The technique is no longer teached, even among instructors the common practice is to flare then freeze at the controls waiting for touchdown drift be damned..

I have been watching crosswind landings in major airports where notorious schools operate, and there is no one a/c landing at the same spot along the runway, often nosewheel touching at the same time as mains, and nearly always, even in no wind situations, looks like most pilots and instructors cannot "see" drift, or take no action at correcting it....

I am a taildragger pilot and myself have a tendency if not concentrated to land with some drift - After decrabbing or breaking the slip with opposite controls- ( Had to mount a go pro to notice it) But the amount of lack of airmanship, drift and abuse I see around is alarming, Cessna's and Pipers can take it, But those schools using Tecnams and Sport Cruisers eventually do damage landing gear whether by torsion or bending the nosewhhel strut.

[markkal]

Damn right Tangoalpha....The ATO I was cooperating with using Diamonds increases all Flight Manual Ref speeds by 10 knots and engine Rpm's on DA 20's by 200 RPM...

They are afraid of slow flight and stall.....Luckily they have a 1200 meters concrete runway....

[Tinstaafl]

I've had various instructors, CPLs with IR, CPLs & PPLs fly with me in a Navajo & a C414 over the last few years. A majority of them couldn't fly the 'straight' part of straight & level. Instead they'd do a very slow & gradual series of 'S' turns. The only time the longitudinal axis was aligned with the required heading was as it crossed it.

No knowledge of the technique of keeping wings level while using the rudder to prevent the heading from moving. Lots & lots of riding brakes against power while taxiing, too.

[GlenQuagmire]

Huh? How does flying with varying yaw help you hold an accurate heading? I hope you haven't been teaching anyone this crap...

Varying the yaw to give a constant heading indication will mean the heading of the aircraft is varying. The heading indication is showing you the heading of the aircraft with the ball centred.

[Mach Jump]

Remember when you were taught 'Straight and Level'?

Ignoring altitude, there were three elements to maintain. 1. Wings level. 2. Constant heading. 3. Balance(ball centered). If you can maintain any two of these, the other one will look after itself.

The ailerons are the most direct method of maintaining 'wings level'

The rudder is the most direct method of maintaining direction.(Preventing yaw)

The balance will then take care of itself, because, if you hold the wings level with the ailerons, and maintain direction with the rudder, the ball will be in the centre.


MJ:ok:

[fireflybob]

Lots & lots of riding brakes against power while taxiing, too.

Standard of taxiing is quite often abysmal these days - I am horrified by the way some "pilots" taxi an aircraft.

[GlenQuagmire]

Maintain direction with the rudder?

What are you on about?

You're not still recovering from a wing drop at the stall with rudder too are you?

[Mach Jump]

No.

In a stall situation, I'm maintaining direction(preventing yaw) with the rudder, whilst arresting the wing drop by reducing the angle of attack.

The primary purpose of the rudder is to prevent yaw.


MJ:ok:

[Tinstaafl]

And note that preventing yaw with rudder during stall/stall recovery is *not* 'picking up the wing with rudder' :mad: After the stall is recovered it is then time to roll using aileron to achieve wings level flight.

[TheOddOne]

Lots & lots of riding brakes against power while taxiing, too.

Very common. Probably our fault. We tell them they must maintain 1200 RPM to stop the plugs fouling and then tell them off for using the brakes to slow down whilst maintaining 1200 RPM.

Soooo, the briefing goes something like this.
'When taxying, when you need to slow down, power to idle first, THEN use the brakes if necessary - you wouldn't drive a car with power against the brakes. AFTER coming to a halt (holding point, power checks, waiting in a queue) set brakes, then 1200 RPM. When moving off again, reduce to idle BEFORE releasing the brakes.'

I think the 2 hardest things about learning to fly are
a: use of the radio
b: taxying.

TOO

[Pull what]

The primary purpose of the rudder is to prevent yaw.

WRONG-the vertical fins primary function is to prevent yaw

[Mach Jump]

No.

The primary purpose of the vertical fin is to provide directional stability.


MJ:ok:

[Pull what]

which is the prevention of yaw

[markkal]

Often idle is set above Flight Manual figure (The ATO am at sets 150 to 200 Rpm more because they are scared engine could quit on final), and pilots /students/instructors develop grotesque handling habits on final, landing, while taxying, let alone the computations from the Flight manual are all hence unapplicable despite these same are used for briefing calculations.

Keep 1200 RPM to prevent fouling....The proof that instructors don't know and cannot understand leaning, not only on the ground but on cruise at well.

I have a privately owned a/c and learned proper leaning the hard way after 25 years of fliying, because of plug fooling on the ground and need to optimise power and save fuel at different settings on these prehistoric but very reliable Lycomings, where mixture is set rich on purpose for cooling reasons due to uneven mixture distribution along intake manifolds of different lenghts and curvature let alone baffling issues on air cooled cylinders where not one cyl temp is the same ( Check your GAMI indicator if you have one).

NO instructor i know is able to decypher the settings on MAP/ Fuel flow gage, Best power vs best economy at 55/65/75 % ranges and match them to the FM numbers.
The figures on Flight manual for fuel consumption at different settings and altitudes are of no use if then you don't set the throttle accordingly to point those indicators on the gage where they need to be. It works, without doing this you will never be able to know your range...leaning takes more than....wait for 5'000 feet and then lean to roughness followed by enrichment to get the engine to run smoothly...Nonsense, lean at whatever ft above ground at 55or 65% max on cruise, to get the consumption and smooth running indicated on FM...

Like the unapplicable figures due to use of RPM's AND speeds above those on FM for LDG and TO distances, the fuel consumption computations made on the ground are unusable as well, FM computations and ranges are based on leaning at different pressure altitudes matched with precise RPM's and MAP numbers..

And Match Jump sorry you are wrong Pull What is right, of course the vertical fin and the surface of rudder as an assembly are there for stability, but if the vertical fin was to provide stability in terms of yaw, there would be no need for compensation tabs on rudder surface, which by the way once set will keep the a/c straight without touching the controls at the speed they have been set to, below or above there will be yaw.

I fly aerobatic aircraft only and this is evident across the whole flight envelope range, from stall to VNE, With regular aircrafts used is on a very narrow speed ranges, the ball is always off one way or the other.....And the sad story is that most pilots are either unaware of it or don't care.

[Mach Jump]

which is the prevention of yaw

No, it isn't.

The vertical fin achieves directional stability by inducing yaw towards any sideslip.

but if the vertical fin was to provide stability in terms of yaw, there would be no need for compensation tabs on rudder surface,

You are confusing stability with trim.


MJ:ok:

[markkal]

Sorry I expressed myself wrong, the vertical fin is the primary surface for longitudinal stability, the rudder for yaw control..

[Pull what]

The vertical fin achieves directional stability by inducing yaw towards any sideslip.

Which prevents yaw which is its primary function. The primary function of the rudder is to control the aircraft in tbe yawing plane about the verical or normal axis.

[Pull what]

Sorry I expressed myself wrong, the vertical fin is the primary surface for longitudinal stability,

The horizontal fin(if fitted) is the primary fixed surface for longitudnal stability

[Pull what]

In a stall situation, I'm maintaining direction(preventing yaw) with the rudder, whilst arresting the wing drop by reducing the angle of attack.

This is also incorrect and would be very dangerous teaching with a stalled condition in a multi engine aircraft with one engine inoperative.

The rudder is the primary control used to PREVENT further wing drop. Reducing the angle of attack below tbe critical angle prevents loss of control and unstalls tbe aircraft, the secondary reaction to this is that as control is regained a stable aircraft will reduce but not necessarily eliminate all of the yaw produced due to the stability provided by the fin and fuselage.

[Mach Jump]

Ok. I'm not wasting any more time on this. People can read our opinions and decide for themselves who they think is right.


MJ:ok:

[Pull what]

Or they may recognise fact that is available in most flight training manuals

[Mach Jump]

In that case, perhaps you would like to provide some textbook references to support your view?


MJ:ok:

[GlenQuagmire]

Stop teaching people to prevent wing drop with the rudder. Stop teaching people to pick up a wing with the rudder. This is what pilots may do when a wing drops for real and they spin in and die.

Whilst it's all very well to demonstrate it as a technical exercise it is bloody dangerous to have it in the memory bank as the correct reaction to a wing drop. It doesn't matter if the wing drops. Stick forward to recover from the stalled condition, roll the wings level when you have sufficient airspeed, and then recover as necessary.

I have had an FO stamp on the rudder in a Global Express on approach at about 200 feet because they thought the wing was stalled. Please stop teaching this crap now!

[wanabee777]

Is this what happened to AA587??

[GlenQuagmire]

yes.

shows how much it matters what you learn first when you learn to fly.

Primacy is a powerful thing...

[markkal]

GlenQuagmire you re right.
At the current state of training the unstalling of aircraft by forward stick is what will save the day should a wing drop.

Though picking up a wing with the rudder in the event of a stalled condition is the right thing to do, the knowledge and skills pilots and instructors posess (Unless they have undergone professional training in this respect) will prevent such thing from happening.

What makes the situation dangerous and prone to accident, is that the non trained pilot/instructor already unconfortable with slow speed handling let alone stalling will, when confronted to such situation react by INSTINCTIVELY correct a wing drop with OPPOSITE aileron, which aggravates the situation by adding drag to the falling wing, this regardless of what has been though on the ground.
Regardless of whether he has been brainstormed to correct by picking up the falling wing with rudder or by unstalling, without training he will 99% of the time apply opposite aileron

An exercise proving this is the "Oscillation Stall" e.g. keeping the a/c stalled at a safe altitude and develop the proper coordination with rudder to prevent tipping over inverted with the rudder while mushing. This exercise is part of the forthcoming EASA UPRT/LOC in flight exercises.

This cannot be learned on the ground, it must be practiced in flight with a competent well trained instructor in suitable a/c. Firsts attempts will show sloppiness, overreaction, freezing at the controls due to unccordination and often fear, how many seconds before the a/c ends up inverted ?

Fine tuning and proper coordination, timely instinctive anticipation will come if one is willing to carry on, the result will be mushing at 1'500 / 2'000 FT descent rate while able to hold the a/c with light lateral oscillations under control. Does this mean something to you ?

I cannot stress enough how proper spin/ stall training will fine tune every pilot skills, and this will show how he/she will handle slow flight and stall after that.

LOC/UPRT near the ground ARE deadly, but it is criminal to dismiss proper training on grounds that it will be of no use because of that. There is a recognition that it is needed for IMC, though still resisted for other scenarios.

It is the mental blockage, fear, the freeezing at the controls, the lack of coordination, distraction, the overall pilot incapacitation PRECEDING uprt/loc near the ground which is responsible for most of these accidents.

[Tinstaafl]

Markkal,

I must strongly disagree that 'picking up the wing with rudder' is a correct response during a stall. The rudder should be used to *prevent* yaw. Yawing while stalled is a precursor to spinning. Raising the wing with rudder is opposite of this (preventing yaw) - it causes a yaw in order to induce a roll.

[Black Jake]

Good thing you experts are all in agreement. Makes it easier for the inexperienced pilot or indeed instructor to work out...........or not!

[markkal]

The length of debate about a flight maneuver is always inversely proportional to the complexity of maneuver. Thus, if the flight maneuver is simple enough, debate approaches infinity.

Robert Livingston, 'Flying The Aeronca.'

[Black Jake]

Is he related to Jonathan Livingston Seagull? Now that is someone (some bird) with credibility regarding aeronautics! :)

[GlenQuagmire]

Tango - I love your reason for edit.. Left myself open to attack!!

Gents, this is a useful learning forum. I'm really happy to learn and I'm very happy to share what I've learned.

There's a big difference between learning to spin and recover as an aerobatic exercise, and learning the best response to the onset of stall or a wing drop when it is inadvertent. In my opinion (nota bene) if you learn that reducing the angle of attack makes the wing fly and gives you manoeuvring margin you are more likely to survive an inadvertent flirt with the stall. Keeping the wings level doesn't matter, minimising height loss doesn't matter, but making sure that both wings are flying is vital. Having that reflex built into your skills may well save your life. What you do with the rudder is entirely secondary in that scenario. That's my opinion built around 25 years of flying.

It's a reflex that will work in a light aircraft, a glider, or an airliner. In a sim session a couple of years ago we did stall recoveries from high altitude (49,000 feet). It took three or four seconds of significant forward stick to get enough authority to roll the wings level and 15 seconds before recovery was possible. Abusing the rudder caused the aircraft to flick inverted. First demo was motion off because it is so dramatic.

Whether you fly for fun or are intending to fly for a living, learn safe habits early.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This about sums this subject up.



There's a big difference between learning to spin and recover as an aerobatic exercise, and learning the best response to the onset of stall or a wing drop when it is inadvertent. In my opinion (nota bene) if you learn that reducing the angle of attack makes the wing fly and gives you manoeuvring margin you are more likely to survive an inadvertent flirt with the stall. Keeping the wings level doesn't matter, minimising height loss doesn't matter, but making sure that both wings are flying is vital. Having that reflex built into your skills may well save your life. What you do with the rudder is entirely secondary in that scenario.

[foxmoth]

minimising height loss doesn't matter,

It does if you are below 200':}

[Whopity]

Until recently I had always taught if a wing were to drop in the stall the sequence would go along the lines of sufficient opposite rudder to prevent further wing drop You were no doubt trained by an instructor who had either been trained on Harvards, or his instructor had. A technique which was designed to minimise height loss on a specific aircraft has perpetuated for many years despite the attempts to stamp it out.

[Whopity]

It no doubt has roots in something such as type specific recovery and has spread incorrectly however I suspect it isn't just the beautiful Harvard to blame. The issue was discussed at a CAA Examiners meet some years ago and an elderley Ex RAF QFI stated categorically that this is where it originated.

[GlenQuagmire]

Foxmoth - I understand why you make that comment but the point is this. If a pilot is distracted such that they allow a stall to develop, or are maxed out to the extent that the aircraft has been allowed to stall, the chances of them suddenly acquiring skills and capacity to recognise that the aircraft is stalled and carry out a recovery utilising secondary effect of the rudder along with elevator and power is nil. They simply will not go from inaccurate flying to precise recovery.
So the vital, critical response should be the reflex. The vital action is reducing the AOA. If you are concerned about loss of control at 200 feet, it's extremely unlikely that the approach was stable earlier than that. So instil critical appraisal of the approach (maybe gates) and the ability to decide to go around.

Time for a new subject?

[172510]

I fully agree with GlenQuagmire (http://www.pprune.org/members/299667-glenquagmire).
If a pilot is distracted such that they allow a stall to develop,(...) the vital, critical response should be the reflex.

[GlenQuagmire]

Can you help me understand what you mean B737?

[B737C525]

I genuinely believe I can't.

But if I thought I could, I might start by saying that a distracted pilot doesn't 'allow' anything to happen...

[GlenQuagmire]

...okay, so start by saying that and carry on. I'm not sure what your viewpoint is but I'm interested to find out what is Neanderthal about my posts. I'm very happy to learn .

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Here is another Neanderthal that would love to learn.

I'll just sit here and wait. :confused:

[Whopity]

Earlier this year I attended a meeting where one of the author's (Pilot and Doctor) of the HPL textbook, stated that in the 20 years since HPL was introduced, he could not identify any measureable improvement resulting from it!