Loganair in Aberdeen emergency landing

[EGNH Flyer]

Loganscare flight BE6916 lost an engine on the way to Sumburgh today.

Emergency landing as Glasgow to Sumburgh plane diverts to Aberdeen - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-34787740)

How long before they kill someone? Perhaps Flymaybe should think about removing their livery?

[Wirbelsturm]

How long before they kill someone?

What a ridiculous thing to say after a simple single engine landing. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[axefurabz]

How long before they kill someone?I think this is what we call an over-reaction. :=

[EGNH Flyer]

Before passing comment, perhaps you would like to review the serviceability stats, cancelled flights (tech), recent incidents. Even their own flight crew have complained.

[EGNH Flyer]

In case you're struggling

Loganair pilots raise serious engineering concerns | Shetland News (http://www.shetnews.co.uk/news/11632-loganair-pilots-raise-serious-engineering-concerns)

Does the post make sense now?

[EGNH Flyer]

Having a quick look, incidents abound

Passengers on Loganair flight ordered to 'brace' during terrifying emergency landing - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/passengers-loganair-flight-ordered-brace-6785716)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3257875/Red-fluid-leaking-wing-Passengers-forced-jump-moving-plane-runway-suffered-mid-air-hydraulics-malfunction-emergency-landing.html

This is just the last couple of weeks. When will they start to take the matter seriously?

[HeartyMeatballs]

Yes two incidents within a week. Very concerning. For such a small operation they do seem to have more than their fair share of incidents. Happily they're too expensive for my family most of the time so we have limited exposure to them. My mother's Christmas pressy from me is usually a return flight to see her grandkids. Last year and this year I didn't. I don't want her anywhere near a LC plane.

Before anyone goes down the 'yes, but they operate in a challenging environment' route then you're wasting your time. Many UK airlines operate into VERY challenging Greek isles, Madeira and Split with big jets. And almost all of these fairy significant issues are occurring in fairly benign 'bread and butter' routes.

On seeing the forecast for SYY tomorrow my initial though was Loganair and how thankful that mother will be enduring a scary crossing of the Minch. At least I know she'll make it on the ferry. I can't be so certain with Loganair. And the hilarious thing is Linksair loose their AOC through what I gether was an admin error. Loganair have several near fatal incidents and nobody bats an eyelid.

It's a matter of time and I'm very much of the opinion that the next UK crash with be Loganair. And I only hope my family are not onboard when things do end in tears. They'll not be too bothered however as it'll be a flyBE flight number, ticket and paint job and will likely send BE under meanwhile LC will survive to kill again. If I had anything to do with BE I'd be happy with no more than a codeshare. When there's a smoking hole and and your logo panted on the tail is all that survives then it's you that people will remember.

[axefurabz]

Didn't you notice that there's already a thread:

Loganair SF34 at Rotterdam. Hydraulic failure (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/568567-loganair-sf34-rotterdam-hydraulic-failure.html)

[HeartyMeatballs]

Oh yes, the RTM incident. There's something REALLY wrong with this company. It's quite unnerving.

[EGNH Flyer]

Of course I'd noticed axefurabz? However raising awareness under a new thread heading might make further conversation. A very good idea considering the circumstances. Very odd you'd raised the issue regarding crew complaints previously, and then regard part of my statement as an overreaction (it's isn't hypenated by the way). I think that's what we call poor grammar.

[Wirbelsturm]

Yes the engineering incidents seem to be high but, from what I know, the incidents were all handled extremely well by the flight crew resulting in a safe outcome so I stand by my initial comment.

Especially in a world where the press describe standard go-around procedures as 'a duel with death' and 'terror in the skies'.

It's what the flight crew are there to deal with.

[Perrin]

In my past was hanger foreman with them in the 80's. Good boys then bad management heads in the sand. Update lots of the good boys are going or left.
Time to really stop and get it right as we all have soft spot for them but enough is enough.
Old planes need TLC which means LSD!!!

ATB to the guys who care!!!!!!!!

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Its true that the company have had a few harem scarem moments recently, but as an earlier poster said, they really do operate in a challenging environment. And seem to have lost their direction a little since Scott Grier left, together with perhaps uncertainty over engineering bases at GLA/ABZ.

I suppose their biggest challenge in the coming years is what to replace the Saab 340s with. Only feasible option is maybe ATR42s, still a larger aircraft but no doubt plenty on the market for reasonable money in the coming years. Can anyone think of anything else to replace the smaller Saabs with?

Comments such as "how long before they kill someone" are counterproductive, and probably uninformed at best, slanderous and completely wrong at worst.

[EGNH Flyer]

Wirbelsturm agree with you completely, crew performance outstanding. Without their professionalism any of these incidents could have ended with a far worse outcome. I just don't think they should be in a place like this? Yes we all know it could go t**ts up at a moments notice, but when it's happening all around you on a regular basis. What an environment to work in.

[HeartyMeatballs]

Unless I'm mistaken it's the Islamders and Twotters that are in the challenging locations. It's the SAABs that seem to be regularly in trouble and as far as I know they operate into some fairly benign locations. So the 'challenging environment' argument is just reflective fluff and spin by Loganair fans or crew.

[Hartington]

The islanders (not the planes, the people) who use the highlands and islands services are not happy. There are letters in papers, facebook pages and anything else you like to imagine complaining about the service they are being offered. My impression is that the burning issue is pricing but little has happened on that front so things have built up with almost anything being seized on to press home the point that they aren't happy.

A chink appeared recently when a discount for emergency travel was announced and I've seen some positive press from that but it doesn't seem to have dampened the general head of steam that has built up.

I'm surprised this is the first time it has reared its' head here.

[HeartyMeatballs]

The islanders may complain about the horrendous pricing and shocking punctuality. However for me the issues are;

-two near disasterous cockups
-numerous engine failures
-runway excursion at SYY
-landing gear issue this week
-hydraulic failure at RTM
-pilots airing their concerns vis-a-vis maintenance
-an accident report highlighting serious CRM issues

These are all issues on the modern SAAB in airports with all the mod cons and nice long runways.

When the inevitable happens I hope the press go to town on LC and our useless regulator. LC will continue, the fat cats in the CAA will go on having failed to do that job and will blame a higher power. When EASA FTLs come online things will go from bad to terrible once fatigue is added to the mix.

Still think the 'challenging environment' is an excuse?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Hearty


When EASA FTLs come online things will go from bad to terrible once fatigue is added to the mix.

Can only be perceived BUT something that LC will need to consider under its SMS if crews are continually delayed if the posts are true. No need to scaremonger though :\

[JB007]

Loganair was my first flying job over ten years ago now, I have two models on my study desk: an Excalibur A320 (previous career and fun times!) and a Loganair Saab340! I hold this company and the memories in very high esteem, then it had incredibly high-standard of training from high-standard individuals that set me up in my career.

I find the current company culture quite disturbing for such a 'small' airline although quite common in a lot of what i've experienced in the last 5 years, that could be described as the bottom-end of UK airlines -

Management in 21st Century UK Airlines, I would add it's only my opinion: There are a number of people promoted to places where ambition greatly outweighs ability on the simple premise that their face fits in the view of those that bestow favours. Nothing wrong with ambition, but it often clouds the thought that might otherwise attach some credence to such ideas as "those you crap on on the way up, are those you'll meet on the way down"

Once you get past the point where you will never get back down to where you started, you begin appointing the ambitious/incapable to your own court. So much easier to surround yourself with muppets to take the heat for you, who are hoping in return, for advancement. My experience now, is the good guys who should be in management, don't touch it with a barge-pole!

I stress my opinion, no offence intended to those working hard for change!

I sincerely hope Loganair sort this out, they are one of the last great UK airlines. The scaremongering is un-necessary.

[mikehammer]

Comments such as "how long before they kill someone" are counterproductive, and probably uninformed at best, slanderous and completely wrong at worst.

If anything, that would be libel surely? However, asking an open question on a public rumour forum is unlikely to be so - good luck to anyone with that particular court case!


There are a number of people promoted to places where ambition greatly outweighs ability on the simple premise that their face fits in the view of those that bestow favours. Nothing wrong with ambition, but it often clouds the thought that might otherwise attach some credence to such ideas as "those you crap on on the way up, are those you'll meet on the way down"

Once you get past the point where you will never get back down to where you started, you begin appointing the ambitious/incapable to your own court. So much easier to surround yourself with muppets to take the heat for you, who are hoping in return, for advancement. My experience now, is the good guys who should be in management, don't touch it with a barge-pole!


Having left Loganair earlier this year (again after 4 short years, like you JB) I would say that is an accurate reflection of the current state of play within management. A total disregard for staff and crews (yet they love the word "team") and an arrogance where an intellect should be found.

[Self Loading Freight]

As I said yesterday in the Loganair thread in the Airlines, Airports and Routes forum, I flew CAL-GLA the day before the Aberdeen incident, and we had to reroute via Tiree because another a/c had gone tech. Not as dramatic (although the pax who missed their connections at GLA weren't happy) but that's two inops in two days, one in flight. on a small fleet.

The Highlands and Islands routes are frequently rough - the GLA-CAL flight I was on on the Monday had a very, er, exciting landing, so I don't doubt that the maintenance load is challenging to manage. But it all feels as if Loganair is operating very close to the edge, commercially and practically, and that's a really uncomfortable environment for everyone. Too many holes in this particular cheese.

[mikehammer]

'Real concerns' about regional airline Loganair, says First Minister | Highlands & Islands | News (http://news.stv.tv/highlands-islands/1332416-real-concerns-about-regional-airline-loganair-says-first-minister/)

[philbky]

I've no knowledge or experience of Loganair but the descriptions of the management style outlined above is endemic across companies large and small. Bad enough for customers of retail, utility and manufacturing companies, worrying in companies involved in transportation, especially an airline.

[aw ditor]

Not tooooo angry then from Purley. Are the Trams still running?

[bcgallacher]

I am sorry to read all this criticism of Loganair as this was the company that I started work with back in the early 60's. At that time it was managed by the late Duncan MacKintosh who was an exceptional man in many respects. The fleet was two Aztecs and a Cherokee 6. After nearly 50 years I still look back at the fun I had for the 2 years I was there,big fun factor - very low salary!

[Cazalet33]

When a company, any company, starts to lose the confidence of both its own staff and that of its customers, it takes an unusually competent management to turn the supertanker through 180° before things come to grief.

Does Loganair have such a Management? If so, now is the right time for them to emerge from the shadows and show what good they can do as never before.

[mikehammer]

When a company, any company, starts to lose the confidence of both its own staff and that of its customers, it takes an unusually competent management to turn the supertanker through 180° before things come to grief.

Does Loganair have such a Management? If so, now is the right time for them to emerge from the shadows and show what good they can do as never before.

They'll need to sack the HR idiot and stop persecuting crews first....I have my doubts, from my own bitter experience. I wasn't the only one who left.

[Wageslave]

When did Loganair begin their slide into the trough of gashness? When I worked in Scotland in the '80s and '90s they seemed very well regarded.

Could it be they were poisoned by Suckling Airways when they took them over - a company that beyond all others that I am aware of (and I doubt any others could have been even a quarter as bad) deserve all the epithets directed at Loganair above and then some?

[camflyer]

Having left this company myself over a year ago (along with many other engineers) the biggest problem is with the management. When Scott Grier left, the company really changed from being a really enjoyable place to work to being dire. The Bond brothers placed the wrong people into management positions and also people were promoted into positions that are not capable of doing their jobs . I spent a year hoping things would get better as I actually didn't want to leave (as someone mentioned above everyone has a soft spot for them) however it became intolerable and left along with many others. Unfortunately until the management take their heads out of the sand and realise they are the issue nothing will change, they will continue to loose staff and also fail to attract and retain new people. :ugh:I really hope it is sorted out because it could be and should be a great place to work with the right leadership.

[Iron Duck]

Could it be they were poisoned by Suckling Airways when they took them over - a company that beyond all others that I am aware of (and I doubt any others could have been even a quarter as bad) deserve all the epithets directed at Loganair above and then some?

Strange how perceptions differ. A Suckling flight from Luton to Paris in the mid '90's was one of the most enjoyable flights as SLF I've ever had. My grateful thanks to the crew.

[EternalNY1]

Loganscare flight BE6916 lost an engine on the way to Sumburgh today.

This is somehow news?

Do you have any idea how many flights have to shut down an engine on an almost daily basis?

Incident: American MD83 near Charlotte on Nov 10th 2015, engine problem (http://avherald.com/h?article=48f26f95&opt=0)

Incident: British Airways B763 near London on Nov 9th 2015, engine shut down in flight (http://avherald.com/h?article=48f19ff3&opt=0)

Incident: First AT42 near Churchill on Nov 7th 2015, engine shut down in flight (http://avherald.com/h?article=48f1931b&opt=0)

Incident: American A319 at Philadelphia on Nov 6th 2015, engine shut down in flight (http://avherald.com/h?article=48f00ab8&opt=0)

And on and on it goes ... :ugh:

[mikehammer]

This is somehow news?

Do you have any idea how many flights have to shut down an engine on an almost daily basis?

It is more the regularity of tech issues and emergencies within one airline this year which, for the island folk in particular, are noteworthy. Also you may have missed it but it was reported in the press that BALPA wrote a strongly worded letter to management about their concerns from both a commercial perspective and also their concerns about the relationship between the many tech problems and flight safety. Subsequent to that there are then reported more emergencies adding credence to the concerns of BALPA and the crews in general.

And yes, somehow this is news.

[Wageslave]

Duck, you are not in a position to offer, compare or remark on "perceptions" as your astonishingly naiive response demonstrates. Do you, as SLF, really imagine the schmoozing you receive in the cabin from a single (even from a hundred) flights gives you even the tiniest insight into the company's operational ability, standards, professipnal integrity, maintenance, regulatory observance or overall likelyhood of killing passengers? Strewth!

This is, after all, a Professional Pilot's forum, not a comfy SLF opinion forum..."Perceptions" were not part of my remarks. More like "Observations".

[parkfell]

As WAGESLAVE points out, this a forum for professionals, and not for hysterical comments from ill informed amateurs who simply fail to contribute "added value" to the discussion.

Sure, there have been problems, more than what any AOC holder would wish to experience. Undoubtedly the Regulator through their FOI will have had discussions. Questions have been asked by no less than the First Minister in parliament. The pressure is on management, and I suspect the brothers, to ensure that Loganair are put back on a very even keel. Probably an expensive business.
As to how the Tiger copes with this pressure will be interesting.........

[Nil further]

The Tiger ?

[Iron Duck]

Duck, you are not in a position to offer, compare or remark on "perceptions" as your astonishingly naiive response demonstrates. Do you, as SLF, really imagine the schmoozing you receive in the cabin from a single (even from a hundred) flights gives you even the tiniest insight into the company's operational ability, standards, professipnal integrity, maintenance, regulatory observance or overall likelyhood of killing passengers? Strewth!

That was my point. The flight, and the crew, were great. I had no idea Suckling was a cowboy outfit; the crew hid that completely. How many other cowboy outfits hide behind the personal and team efforts of great crews? Allegiant, by the look of it, according to another live thread. How many household name airlines are also cowboy outfits protected by the daily efforts of professional crew? SLF are rarely in a position to know.

Quite simply I enjoyed that flight and am grateful to that crew. I'm sorry they were suffering at the hands of cowboys and grateful to them that my flight ended well rather than badly. I put my trust in them and was rewarded, like almost all other SLF almost all of the time.

[Iron Duck]

How many household name airlines are also cowboy outfits protected by the daily efforts of professional crew? SLF are rarely in a position to know.

Perhaps I should elaborate further. The reason why you ATPL chappies have jobs is because SLF like me want you to fly us about. In the main you do your jobs very well and we're none the wiser about your problems.

My dad was a maintenance foreman for British European Airways. I've flown a lot with BEA, BOAC and BA, and my over-riding impression is of a solid, safe and reliable operation, if perhaps not the grooviest or most spectacular. M&S rather than Harvey Nichols, and that suits me fine. Earlier this year I round-tripped from London to Edinburgh, flying from LCY in a BA-branded E-190, an aircraft and flight I thought exceptional and thoroughly enjoyed. I returned to LHR on an A320: a plain-vanilla experience. Is CityFlyer better, comparable or worse operationally than BA? I'm not in a position to know, or easily to find out. I put my trust in the crew and wasn't let down.

And that is the thinking SLF's problem. I don't mind forking out a few more quid for a proper Nigel. Question is, am I getting one, or is that Nigel and equivalent backup actually available to me?

[AtomKraft]

I used to work for Loganair, albeit a few years ago.

I think that they have found that replacing the airmanship that their Captains had when I worked there, with the tick box, "SOP-for-everything" style that's virtually mandatory in the uk these days, has proved trickier than they expected.

I think LC figured that they would be able to pay even less by writing masses of new SOPs, and trusting in the rules to look after the crews. Got to be cheaper than employing very experienced pilots and engineers, right?

I'm sure that's not the whole story, but I hear that their ops inspector is spending a lot of time with them these days.

[Self Loading Freight]

“With Maurice in post, the director operations role is now a permanent position..."

!

Is it normal in aviation management to NOT have a permanent Dir Ops? Or do smaller outfits fold it into another directorship?

[mikehammer]

The previous title was before they ousted Phil Preston who took over from Jonathan Hinkles, the post of Chief Operations Officer. There's a DFO too. In fact there's a manager for more or less everything. They even had a punctuality "Champion" at one stage, if you ever saw a chalice full of snake venom.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

And that is the thinking SLF's problem. I don't mind forking out a few more quid for a proper Nigel. Question is, am I getting one, or is that Nigel and equivalent backup actually available to me?

Iron Duke

You need to get with the times Sir, Nigel is no longer it's now Rupert or Tristram :\

[ewe.lander]

Sorry I'm late out of the blocks.....slow Yorkshire bloke.

Dear 'Wageslave', please do expand on your apparent dislike for Suckling/Scot Airways?

Sad that in the middle of Loganair's woes (and I am a MASSIVE fan of Loganair, and a pox on their new dodgy Management), you have a deep dig at Suckling?

I've been SLF a good few times with Loganair out to see my son in Stornoway and have always admired the Logan Saab Crews. I've also flown the Suckling 328 as a Captain for a short while and realise how lucky I was to operate with such a good little Company.

After 38 years as a Aviation Twonk, piloting in the Civvy/Military/Airline/Corporate/Helicopter world, I'm happy to say that Suckling are/were a great bunch of people, with a great aircraft and I honestly feel privileged to having worked with them.

I know that the 'marriage' between Loganair & Suckling hasn't been particularly rewarding or happy for both Companies, but please don't 'shotgun' your grumpiness at the DO328 Crews for the present woes?

Presumably Flybe are complete cads for making the Saabs go blue, and Eastern's are blighters for snaffling Saab 2000's contracts??

[Wageslave]

ewe.lander, you must have perceptive powers verging on the supernatural if you believe you can judge moods from a written post. You may not be entirely correct though.

Perhaps Suckling had cleaned their act up by the time you got to them, but given your miraculous perceptive powers you would of course know of the operational and maintenance matters which every other ex Suckling pilot I have ever met is all too familiar with, even the least observant ones.

However those perceptive powers have failed you completely in the comprehension of my post (or perhaps it's just failure to read it properly) as I made no mention or reference to the staff at all. Perhaps you would have the courtesy to acknowledge that much of your post which was devoted scorning me for doing the staff down was in fact utterly baseless?

I'd have thought with all that experience you'd know that any systemic failure in a company is down to culture (probably led by a few in positions of influence) rather than the good guys that are dragged along with it. And, as I surmised earlier perhaps this rubbed off in Loganair?

:)

[ewe.lander]

Nope I'm not perceptively supernatural Wageslave, and certainly wouldn't want to get into a protracted argument over this. Your post mentions 'poisoned', and alludes to Suckling been a dark place. I accept you didn't actually slag off the 'coal face' but I do think you cannot reasonably blame the recent operational woes of the 340's on a decent bunch of 328 operators, who really didn't want to join the party.

As I said, I have the greatest respect for the Logan Saab Crew, they like the Suckling Crews, are on the whole either new and trying to climb the UK slippery Airline ladder, or like me, old and grateful for the chance to keep paying the Mortgage.

I do accept my 'banter' might have been too barbed, would you accept that that the 'poisoned' word wasn't helpful? Cheers.

[Wageslave]

ewe.lander, as ever a bulletin board is a fertile ground for misreading posts and taking offence at what wasn't written or even implied.

You'll see on re-reading that nowhere did I "blame", I merely surmised by asking a question. I had always understood Loganair to be a good company with a sound reputation so when it starts having systemic problems after taking over a company I know to have a shocking background over a period of decades (though I can't speak for the most recent years) it doesn't seem unreasonable to surmise a connection. I only asked.

And, frankly, if that had happened then I think the word "poisoned" would not be at all inappropriate. If that did not happen then the answer is that the description doesn't apply. Does that help?

[ewe.lander]

No, not really, and the 'shocking background' doesn't help, but frankly you (and I) are entitled to our opinions, so I'll leave it there.

[parkfell]

For those of you who can recall 2006-7 when Jim Cameron was CEO and SG was in charge.
The Kirwall press decided to focus on Saab serviceability and safety. SG came out defending the Saab. Behind the scenes SG & JC had a " full and frank exchange of views". The upshot of that was that JC decided to move on with a significant golden handshake. Declared in the filed company accounts.

The whole problem was that the engineering dept were short of staff / contractors

The bottom line is that the ginger beers need to be treated well. You need to keep them happy. This is fundamental to any flying outfit. Sound familiar?

Even more important than pilots if you have to be brutally honest ~ light blue touch paper and retire