Bombardier bailout.

[cldrvr]

Bombardier Inc. tumbled the most in two months amid concern that a Quebec government rescue of as much as $1.3 billion won’t be enough to end the financial drain.


Bombardier Falls on Concern $1.3 Billion Aid Isn't Enough - Bloomberg Business (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-29/bombardier-to-get-1-billion-from-quebec-government-for-cseries)

[FrankR]

They need to dump the family and all the good old boy idiots calling the shots.

What a joke that brand is.

FR

[PLovett]

I think it was the development costs of the C-series that has caused the problem, especially coming on top of reduced sales in the bizjet market.

[tuna hp]

I think it was the development costs of the C-series that has caused the problem, especially coming on top of reduced sales in the bizjet market.

That and spending over a billion developing the Learjet 85, which they've now had to write off and completely cancel, because the market for such midsize planes has shriveled, and a lot of the demand thats there is satisfied by used models or new copies of all the old designs still being produced at huge discounts, and the small niche of the market willing to pay real prices for new models is going to go for the Embraer 500 which is much more plane for about the same money.

Bombardier is screwed. They'll never get large C Series orders. The bottom half of their business jet model lineup has been completely surpassed by newer models from competitors. Their CRJ models are going to increasingly lose out to Embaer's E-jets. Their turboprop models will increasingly lose out to ATR.

Their only saving grace is the Global 7000/8000 project. Even with this, they have pushed back launch of the global 7000 2 years. And who knows how it will sell. The 7000 is the first purpose built business jet to be built with over 100' of length, which might scare off buyers if it prevents them from getting into their airports. And even if the program ends up going pretty well, would it be enough to save them from the disasters of their C-Series and Learjet programs? Maybe not.

[CL300]

Their kiss of Death was Netjet's order.. EVERY company that took an order from Netjets ( whatever the market) took a hit somehow, when they leave, the company breathes again. Bombardier is no exception. ( even if not immediately related it is really interesting to see)

Next move for Netjets will be to buy chinesee aircrafts..:O:O

[His dudeness]

CL300, that might be the case. What I never understood is the reasoning beyond short term profits when a manufacturer sells to NJ. They will loose clients, thus sales and they are increasingly in the hand of a giant.

A market almost exclusively in the hand of one player aint much of a market...

[Global_Global]

Their kiss of Death was Netjet's order..

B*llsh!t.... The main problem was the "orders" from Vista which are simple buy and flip orders which Bombardier apparently financed as well... Vista buys an aircraft and sells it within 3 years destroying the new aircraft and the aftermarket... The NetJets aircraft dont show up for at least 10 years in the aftermarket. :8

[CL300]

Tell Beechcraft, Dassault, Cessna, Gulfstream..... They all loved the NJ way....

Time for the remainder players Bombardier and Embraer to suck it up, then "once bitten, twice shy" approach will come up...Just a matter of time..

Vista at least is paying for the orders they take..

[Global_Global]

Vista at least is paying for the orders they take..

Word in Dorval when I picked up our 5000 was that Vista was definitely not paying themselves... NJ are supposed to be cash buyers (which makes sense taking their shareholder into account..)

What I never understood is the reasoning beyond short term profits when a manufacturer sells to NJ. Banks like long term buyers like NJ as it allows them to predict cash flow on future sales :8 They tend not to like our business as it is hard to predict when my boss wants to upgrade..:}

[CL300]

Nj never took more than 10% of what they ordered, never.. And NJ does not buy itself, only takes delivery when aircraft is sold..whatever, it does not matter, it is just a comment on the last 20 years trend in the market, and at dawn of collapse ( or like it) NJ is present 2 to 3 years before hand

[733driver]

Not sure that last statement is correct. Pretty sure they took way more then 10% of the Citations and Phenoms they ordered. In fact close to 100% of the firm orders for the Phenoms and not too far off for the Bravos and Excels/XLSs. Not sure about the Hawkers 750/800 and Citation Ultras/Encores/Xs but should be similar. Options are just that.

Sure, 2000LX and 7X are a different story.

Edited to say, they also took many 400XPs. Pretty sure it was at least all the firm orders. On the Phenom side of things they have recently converted options into firm orders.

[CaptainProp]

Yea how many 7Xs did they take in the end? 3? 5?

CP

[CL300]

3 out of 60 ordered
2000 Exy the same, plus cancellation of all orders of LX's

Same with Raytheon, Cessna,Gulfstream...( ratio a bit better)

[Global_Global]

Nj never took more than 10% of what they ordered, never..
So let's see: JetNet says they have 500 aircraft now so that means they ordered 5000 :ok: Oh but I think that is a lie too :}

The main order that was cancelled is the one from Dassault as they moved over to Bombardier. The only other main one was the Horizon, err H4000.... :rolleyes:

[CL300]

i am for another six months under confidential agreement, data are from the date Executive Jet was rebranded Netjets, and so forth around the world. Strangely enough one of my first company incorporated in Delaware in 1984 was doing Time sharing, we all saw NJ arriving, and i have a file with all the orders/cancelation/ lies and so on.. They are so bad in telling the truth that do not remember in their ad when they got created..

All good fun from outside..


https://youtu.be/KcYSnIf1V8k?list=PL593666ABA7A9BAD6


00:40 is a laugh..

[Global_Global]

Good look forward to your secret list of 5000 aircraft orders! :D

[Global_Global]

Oh and while you uncover the next Roswell: this is the what they say on their website https://www.netjets.com/ascend/articles/netjets-50th/netjets-50th-anniversary/ But I guess you know better :rolleyes:

[CL300]

50 years... what a joke mate... Netjets was created out of Executive Jet in Boston in 1986..At the time of Santulli said the very famous sentence : " no Learjet ever over my dead body " Santulli gone here is Bombardier in the game. But If they count the wright brothers netjets is even older. When you have only a very fuzzy past, you can try to dilute the truth into a brainwashing machine hoping to have a better future.
With the internal memos , you would be surprised on how many aircrafts plus options plus plus plus, NJ totalized , But it does not matter, subject being that when Netjets touches a company, the stress put onto this company, suppliers, market is such that this brand is doomed for a period of time, except if this brand is kicking them out ( some did, even some Fbo did it).

It is not about Netjets bashing, it is just about correct recall of events.

But Netjets in 1965... I doubt, FAR 91.501 was not ever written...( this is NOT subchapter K)

[733driver]

I agree that NetJets has "only" been around (as a fractional operator) since 1986. That whole 50 year anniversary is a load of marketing bull in my opinion.

However, the order/vs. delivery ratio is not nearly as as bad as CL300 wants to make us believe.

It doesn't take internal memos to know how many planes were ordered/optioned. All involved were usually eager to get those press releases out.

It's true that the cancellations were usually not advertised but it's easy enough to google past orders and compare against publicly available information regarding past and current fleet size.

Of some types NetJets have taken more than the initial orders and of other types less.

NetJets have bought so many Citations and Hawker for example that I don't see how the manufacturers would have suffered from those deals. On the Phenom side of things they have already taken delivery of more than the initial 50 firm orders.

[His dudeness]

that I don't see how the manufacturers would have suffered from those deals.

Cause there are certainly a lot of people who gave up their flying or never started an ops of their own, but bought a FRACTION of an airplane.
Granted, there might be some who would never bought their own, still I think the ratio is more likely to be unfavorable for the manufacturers. Certainly NJ will not pay the same than a one or two airplane customer. So if you have to sell 10 aircraft to make the same margin that you could make on, say, 2 to individual clients... and as I said before, having to rely on one more or less giant operator instead of dozens of one time clients would give me sleepless nights.
I could be totally wrong btw.

[EatMyShorts!]

...but even if some owners gave up their own planes or new owners never went for their own airframe, they will keep on flying and Netjets will keep on ordering aircraft to replace older ones. It is not Netjets' fault that there is more than one manufacturer and that they compete against each other, that's the free market.

@CL300: why are you so bitter? Netjets has treated you very well. Other companies would have dropped employees who were in a situation like you, like a hot potato. While there are certainly a few things to improve (and that drive employees nuts!), the care for people is really a strong point, in 99% of cases. I am critical of Netjets, I am not brain-washed. Stronger brain-washing you get at other operators - we know what we can do and what we cannot do - most of the time. That is called confidence.

[CL300]

Treating well ? bitter ? I cannot care less about Nj nowadays, they have good lawyers that is for sure. But this is not the subject, the subject is Bombardier Bail out. And it is just a matter of time that Embraer will face troubles as well. It is like this my friend. NJ is ruining one's life at a blink of an eye, if you wait long enough, you will suffer as well, trust me on this.

One of these days, when you pass by the airport drop me a pm; i will tell you how many good state, european, ethical moments i went through. Then you will be able to tell if my particular path is correct.. (was), just for the records i would say, since past is past.

[tuna hp]

Come on, its not Netjet's fault. Its a chicken vs. egg situation: what came first, the airframer being in deep financial straits, or the airframer making a deal to sell a large portion of their production capacity to Netjets at blowout prices? The companies that seem to have done poorly out of Netjets sales are the ones that were already in a lot of trouble, maybe they made desperate deals with Netjets to try to salvage a troubled airplane program.

Especially with respect to Bombardier, Netjets never had anything to do with the C-Series nor the Learjet 85. Those failures have to be completely owned by Bombardier. The Learjet 85 was an especially foolish mistake. Even when it was first announced I remember asking myself what they were thinking. Even then, the upper midsize / super midsize category was far and away the most overcrowded with every single airframer offering at least one product for sale or in some stage of development. Back then even the Falcon 5X project was publicly discussed as a "super midsize" (although it appears that Dassault had the smarter idea and went back to the drawing board on that one).