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MD83FO
23rd Oct 2015, 16:46
I'll try again, there is ambiguity in who performs which actions after starting engine one.
is it specified anywhere? this is not a supplementary technique.
by common sense I think the PF should switch engine mode selector to normal and APU BLEED OFF, then PM the rest.
I'd like to hear your thoughts, thanks.

tubby linton
23rd Oct 2015, 17:43
Correct see the FCTM for the normal two engine start. For OETD the pf also selects the Y elec pump on.

Rick777
23rd Oct 2015, 19:07
The answer is however your airline tells you to do it. When I was flying the 320 the captain looked outside and drove the bus while the FO did everything else. Not all operators do it that way.

FlightDetent
24th Oct 2015, 15:45
... pf also selects the Y elec pump on. Any Airbus reference to this?

thanks, FD.

EcamSurprise
24th Oct 2015, 15:55
After engine one start, for us, the PF puts the ENG MODE sel to norm, bleed OFF and Y Elec ON.

Then for start up the PM does all the switching for the engine start. PF looks outside other than confirming the master switch.

tubby linton
24th Oct 2015, 16:23
It is in our normal procedures tab in the QRH but it is probably something the company has asked Airbus to include.

FlightDetent
24th Oct 2015, 16:54
I am not used to OETD at all, and I would be thinking otherwise - support button for PM. Along the lines of TASK SHARING for ABN(!): "The Pilot Not Flying (PNF), is responsible for: ... Performing required actions, or actions requested by the PF, if applicable ... "

On the other hand your way (and ES too) has a nice rythm to it. Instead of two pb's for APU pilot would press Y ELEC HYD and APU bleed - still two moves.

---
For those unaware, for quite some time Airbus provides operators with manuals in a XML format, along with a software suite (ADOC and FODM). This means that the Flt Ops engineer(s) are able to edit the content before creating the pdf files or EFB dataloads. The result is 100% factory look-and-feel document, including all the revision notes. What gets layed over the original Airbus texts is at mercy and wisdom of the operator.

cheers, FD.

EcamSurprise
24th Oct 2015, 17:41
In our airline, after start (if no OETD) then the APU is switched off by the PF.

So, Why wouldn't the PF put the Bleed Off or the Yellow Pump on after engine start?

To have two different people on the overhead panel at the same time would be illogical IMO.

FlightDetent
24th Oct 2015, 23:41
Lost in translation. I ment to say that the procedure you have is neatly designed so that the flow resembles normal SOP.

Instead of pressing APU bleed + APU master, PF would go for APU bleed + Y ELEC. So there are still two actions performed on the OVHD. :ok:

cheers, FD.

Check Airman
25th Oct 2015, 05:27
FO does all the engine starts, and after start flows at my shop.

Fursty Ferret
27th Oct 2015, 13:29
Seemed fairly obvious to me.

PF is responsible for engine start, which is why the PF after-start flow is engine mode selector, APU, and engine anti-ice. That's it. Their job is to start the engines and monitor the push.

The yellow pump has nothing to do with the engine start, which is why it's PM's job to turn it on.

C172Navigator
28th Oct 2015, 23:42
EcamSuprise - you and I are at the same outfit. Where does it say PF confirms the master during OETD start? I do it as I think it is sensible, but I have never found it stated anywhere as a requirement. Thanks.

PENKO
29th Oct 2015, 23:46
It is not stated anywhere, but apparently encouraged in certain bases.

EcamSurprise
30th Oct 2015, 23:52
@C172Navigator

It's in our OMB now. I'll PM you the reference.

It's specfically about OETD and says how PM should move / announce switches WITH confirmation (when required) and also WITH a commentary.


Do you remember the event in BCN which stopped the runway crossings for a while? Good reason why confirming is a good idea, as you say!

Cak
31st Oct 2015, 13:45
If you follow strictly Airbus procedures then it should be done by PF as I understand it.

It is a Supplementary procedure and according to FCTM, every SUP PROC is Read and Do Proc and every SUP PROC regarding engine start should be done by PF

EcamSurprise
31st Oct 2015, 14:23
Ok so we TAXI out.

You say PF needs to start the engine during taxi.
So he hands over control to PM.
PM now becomes PF.
The new PF now has to hand control back over to the new PM.
And so on and so on..
I can see that going back and forth for a while..

Why on earth would you want the guy who is taxiing and supposed to be looking outside, starting an engine?

Cak
31st Oct 2015, 20:15
I am not saying that it's good or smart, I am just saying what is RECOMMENDED in the FCTM, so it means that it's not a MUST but SHOULD :)

For Supplementary Procedures the tasksharing should be:
If the procedure is related to engine start, it is recommended to read the entire procedure first and
then:
‐ The PM reads the actions, and
‐ The PF acts on commands.
Otherwise, the procedure is considered as read and do and is performed by the PM.

Chesty Morgan
31st Oct 2015, 22:48
I think you lot need to differentiate between PF and PT.

PT could be either PF or PM for the sector. So PNT should be doing the engine start. ;)

Cak
1st Nov 2015, 05:24
I don't think that Airbus has PT

If I am wrong, please give me a reference

Chesty Morgan
8th Nov 2015, 15:47
Who drives it while you're on the ground?

Cak
8th Nov 2015, 16:05
Pilot flying

Chesty Morgan
8th Nov 2015, 16:09
Not necessarily. If the FO is PF for the sector who's taxying if there's only one tiller?

Cough
8th Nov 2015, 21:12
How many A320's have a single tiller? I can think of many 737's in that config, but not the 'ickle Bus..

Cak
9th Nov 2015, 05:39
I don't think that any Airbus from 320 family has a single tiller, and there is not a single reference of it in the FCOM or FCTM. I have flown really old Airbuses even without Gps but every had double tiller.

So, PF is Pilot taxiing if the company procedure doesn't say different

Chesty Morgan
9th Nov 2015, 08:07
Ok, in which case PNT/F should be doing the switchery whilst PT/F drives.

Cak
9th Nov 2015, 13:16
@ Chesty Morgan

Are you even flying an Airbus or you are just telling your opinion on this matter?

And do you read the posts? I copied a part of Airbus FCTM in one of my previous posts (#17) and it is clearly stated who is doing what.

Another thing is how smart is it to do it like that and as far as I know, most of the companies have their own procedures for this

Chesty Morgan
9th Nov 2015, 14:31
I don't have to be flying an Airbus to know that you are likely to crash into something if you're looking inside starting an engine at the same time as taxying.

You said it's not a must it's a should. The sensible option isn't necessarily what the manufacturer suggests.

pineteam
4th Sep 2021, 06:40
For Single engine taxi out in the FCOM they mention:

For ENG 2 start, and when taxiing in a straight line:
Maintain taxi in a straight line during at least 5 seconds after selection of the ENG 2 master lever to ON, in order to ensure the PTU auto-test is completed.


What’s the deal with the taxi in a straight line tho? I understand setting the parking brake will inhibit the PTU auto-test but what’s the issue of starting during a turn? Does pressing the brake will affect the PTU auto-test?

Thanks.

FlightDetent
4th Sep 2021, 07:21
IIRC the old text explained the straight taxi requirement was to avoid brake / NWS jerk during elec transient as the other engine GEN comes online.

Perhaps the additional hyd load from NWS command and likely braking during the PTU test could invalidate the results.

Smells like an in-service event avoidance SOP. PTU fault during taxi,.... thank you but no, thank you. ☺️

All speculation, with Y Elec running why should there be trouble?

Roj approved
4th Sep 2021, 07:23
Y ELEC PUMP.........OFF

(The PTU will run if the difference between G and Y is >500psi)

APU Bleed ....ON

wait 10 secs

ENG 2.......Start

Could it be because the Y Elec Pump has been off for >10secs, there is a possibility of a drop in Y HYD PX, and then the PTU Auto test, you could get a further drop in Y HYD Px and therefore not having enough HYD Px to guarantee the NWS needs?

That's all I can think of? (We don't do this, and very rarely do OE Taxi IN, so I'm just guessing)

Vessbot
4th Sep 2021, 14:49
6 years ago a poster got caught in a loop of handing over controls and PF/PM re-designation - are they still in it? :ok:​​​​

oceancrosser
4th Sep 2021, 15:32
Sounds simple...
During preflight the Captain decides whether he will be the PF or PM for the sector or whether the F/O will be PM or PF.
In case of One Engine Taxi Out (OETD), the PF will be the PT and the PM will be the PNT.
Once the dead engine is supposed to be started, the PT, as the PF will become the PNT and starts the engine, while the PNT takes over as PT.
Once the engine has been started the PNT becomes the PT again, and the PT reverts to being PNT, until at takeoff when the PT becomes PF and the PNT becomes PM.

There should be no confusion about this.

Coupled with a certain Big Airlines pilot switching roles this becomes interesting. :}

Now lets try to fit CM1 and CM2 into this :ugh:

Caveat: Not an Airbus pilot.

sonicbum
4th Sep 2021, 18:24
On the Airbus the PF is taxing and the PM starts the remaining engine autonomously. In my outfit the single engine taxi-in/out stopped being a supplementary procedure several years ago and just became sop given the amount of usage. I believe it is the same with the vast majority of A320 operators at least in EASA land.