CofA/PtF feedback sought by newbie

[Thumper15]

Hi all - apologies in advance if I posted this twice....

Need help if at all possible. i currently fly an aircraft residing on a PtF. Have essentially seen an 'upgraded' version of my one for slightly more money which (sadly) sits of the ARC and C of A. Although both are Annex II aircraft, there is a chance the one I am looking at will go onto a permit but not in the next year.

So, where I am at right now is:

- I know I need an annual on the aircraft which will cost @1100 - 1500 which my current LAA engineer can conduct on behalf of a CEMA
- I know I can do the 50 hour check
- I know I need a prop overhaul every 6 years
- Engine has 500 hours and virtually rebuilt but sadly not signed off as zero timed but new pistons, crank, etc. I know as it is on a private c of a I escape binning it every 12 years regardless of hours

What I don't know is:

- is there still another tri-annual inspection cost I have to fork out?
- CAA fees for registering the plane on a c of a or is this included in the annual?
- Radio annual cost?
- finally what I don't know what I don't know!

To add to the picture, the aircraft I am reviewing was rebuilt to a good standard in 2014 and has just had its annual/ARC renewed for another 12 months. Currently, all in, I pay around £850 p/a to keep my Permit going. I'm no engineer so am happy to pay for it to be done by an expert.

Anyway, feedback gratefully received!

PS. If I am really mad even considering going from Permit to C of A, just tell me :)

[robin]

What type is it? There is a lot of miscommunication about moving from CofA to Permit

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree, that the type is really quite important.

However, a few points of detail.

Hi all - apologies in advance if I posted this twice....

Need help if at all possible. i currently fly an aircraft residing on a PtF. Have essentially seen an 'upgraded' version of my one for slightly more money which (sadly) sits of the ARC and C of A. Although both are Annex II aircraft, there is a chance the one I am looking at will go onto a permit but not in the next year.

So, where I am at right now is:

- I know I need an annual on the aircraft which will cost @1100 - 1500 which my current LAA engineer can conduct on behalf of a CEMA

There is, for present purposes, no such thing as an LAA Engineer.

You are responsible for the maintenance management of your aircraft. If you elect to delegate somebody else to do the work, that is your choice and responsibility -but they're certainly not qualified or appointed by the LAA.

There is an LAA inspector, but their job is to annually audit your (or your appointee's) care and maintenance of the aircraft, not to maintain it.

- I know I can do the 50 hour check

You can.

- I know I need a prop overhaul every 6 years

That is unusual, but presumably in the maintenance manual for your aeroplane. It's unlikely to be any different on CofA or permit, except that on a CofA you may be paying for some more expensive paperwork (which actually means a quality assurance system behind it).


- Engine has 500 hours and virtually rebuilt but sadly not signed off as zero timed but new pistons, crank, etc. I know as it is on a private c of a I escape binning it every 12 years regardless of hours

On a PtF that's totally irrelevant - you maintain it and do what's needed.

On a CofA it only becomes relevant, as you've correctly identified, if you plan on commercial use of the aircraft, for example for-profit instruction.

What I don't know is:

- is there still another tri-annual inspection cost I have to fork out?

It's unlikely that the maintenance shedule is any different, only the minimum qualifications of the people and/or organisation that you use to maintain the aircraft.

- CAA fees for registering the plane on a c of a or is this included in the annual?
- Radio annual cost?
- finally what I don't know what I don't know!


Firstly, it's almost certain that you can't move an aircraft from a PtF to a CofA.

Secondly - fees for a CofA and annual will mostly lie with the maintenance organisation. Speak to one or two suitably qualified organisations and ask for prices. Then add 50% for what it'll probably actually cost.


To add to the picture, the aircraft I am reviewing was rebuilt to a good standard in 2014 and has just had its annual/ARC renewed for another 12 months. Currently, all in, I pay around £850 p/a to keep my Permit going. I'm no engineer so am happy to pay for it to be done by an expert.

Anyway, feedback gratefully received!

PS. If I am really mad even considering going from Permit to C of A, just tell me :)

ARC is just a paperwork exercise - it's the maintenance side that actually costs real money.

Not knowing the type yet, I nonetheless think that you can reasonably expect to quadruple that figure for most CofA aeroplanes compared to a comparable PtF flying machine.

That's fine - so long as you will get adequate benefits - such as the ability to use it for instruction, or to fly IFR. If you don't need or value pretty highly those benefits - frankly, I'd recommend staying on a PtF.

G

[ericferret]

For a Cessna 150
Radio annual around £120.
Radio Licence 3 yearly about £70?
CAA fee paid by me at ARC time around £56.
I pay for the ARC as as a stand alone charge.
I have all maintenance including the radio annual done by independent licensed engineers.
After that it is fuel,insurance and hangarage.
Currently the other recurring charges are prop overhaul, vac pump replacement, seat belt replacements, fuel and oil hose replacement, magneto maintenance and compass swing.

I think that covers most of it.

[Thumper15]

Genghis and Eric,

Many thanks for your replies.

I have learned this evening from my LAA Inspector/(qual'd) Engineer that a change in regs a couple of weeks ago looks like the ARC can be issued by the person doing the maintenance which looks to help matters somewhat.

So, thanks to you two, my understanding of annual aeroplane costs on a CofA looks to be

- Annual/ARC combined @£1100 (basis same authorised person can now issue them)
- Radio annual: £120
- ARC CAA Fee £56

Based off time:
- prop: 600 hrs
- mags:400 hrs
- vac pump ?
- seat belts ?
- fuel hoses ?
- oil hoses ?

As previously mentioned, my current airframe (C-120) sits in the PtF arena and the one i have viewed (C-140) is on a CofA. There is hope this type would also cross onto permit in time but the major block appears to be Textron who still hold the TC in the USA. Therefore, although it is an annex 2 airframe, I can't see the CAA rushing around to get rid of it onto the LAA.

Also, Genghis, i read with interest your very in-depth post on Flyer ref changes in the air for light aircraft. i must concede they look to further dent why anyone would have an aircraft on a CofA.

Genghis, where you wrote:

''Delegating initial issue of PtF to the sport flying organisations, rather than their issuing recommendations to the CAA who would then issue the PtF from Gatwick. (Article 21 of CAP 1335) ''

i am assuming that is only after the CAA has approved the aircraft becomes a permit type as opposed to the LAA requesting for particular types they deem appropriate?

Thanks again to all

Thumper.

[Genghis the Engineer]

i am assuming that is only after the CAA has approved the aircraft becomes a permit type as opposed to the LAA requesting for particular types they deem appropriate?

Ish.

At the moment the association (BMAA tech office, or LAA Engineering) approves either the type or the individual aeroplane in principle, then issues a (Microlight) Airworthiness Approval Note to the CAA, who then issue the PtF.

The proposed change is I think that the PtF will now be issued directly by the BMAA or LAA, who'll presumably just inform CAA that they did so.

This won't change that CAA have the vote on what the BMAA or LAA *may* handle, and something with a current CofA and no orphan status is unlikely to come into their bailliwick any time soon.

I have to say, I think that you'll be lucky to get an Annual and ARC on a CofA C120 done for £1100. That may be the absolute minimum "if there's nothing wrong with it, no ADs due this year..." figure, but I'd be surprised if that happens. My minimum figure for a 1970s AA5 (I own one and part own another, maintained at two different places) is double that, and we seldom get near the minimum, very sadly.

G

[Thumper15]

AD's have slowed up to a trickle given the age of the aeroplane. However, whilst there remains an active TC holder, it seems too great a risk to take. Conversations with both LAA and CAA GA dept. also failed to shed any light on the process for the migration of airframes from CofA to a permit so i would assume it is very very low down on their list of 'to do's' at the moment!